How does the bread turn into the body/flesh of Christ?

[TonyChanYT]

Jesus fed five thousand men in John 6:1-14 by miraculously multiplying five barley loaves and two fish.

The next day:

35 Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life;

The bread of spiritual life.

whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst.

50 This is the bread that comes down from heaven, so that one may eat of it and not die. 51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. And the bread that I will give for the life of the world is my flesh.”
52 The Jews then disputed among themselves, saying, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?”

The Jews did not ask: How does the bread turn into his flesh?

They did not think that. They did not think in terms of transubstantiation.

How should we understand this then?

Jesus explains;

63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life. 64 But there are some of you who do not believe.”

We are to understand this in terms of spiritual life. Jesus multiplied the bread. We should believe this as a sign of his being the bread of life. Such a belief would cause us to grow spiritually. It feeds our spirit.

How does the bread turn into the body/flesh of Christ?

It doesn't. The bread is a sign for us to believe so that we can grow—not fleshly—but spiritually.

See also This is my body or represents my body?.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Jesus fed five thousand men in John 6:1-14 by miraculously multiplying five barley loaves and two fish.

The next day:


The bread of spiritual life.



The Jews did not ask: How does the bread turn into his flesh?

They did not think that. They did not think in terms of transubstantiation.

How should we understand this then?

Jesus explains;


We are to understand this in terms of spiritual life. Jesus multiplied the bread. We should believe this as a sign of his being the bread of life. Such a belief would cause us to grow spiritually. It feeds our spirit.

How does the bread turn into the body/flesh of Christ?

It doesn't. The bread is a sign for us to believe so that we can grow—not fleshly—but spiritually.

See also This is my body or represents my body?.

Right, bread was a transient supply of life, whereas Jesus came not to simply extend life, but to complete life with the gift of Eternal Life. Transubstantiation or Consubstantiation is an attempt to literalize sayings of Jesus that obviously used metaphors with obvious spiritual implications.

To describe things like "spiritualized bread" is nonsense. But to say that taking the Communion has meaning is something entirely different.

You don't have to eat "spiritualized bread" for the Eucharist to have meaning. You don't have to eat dedicated bread to receive Christ, spiritually, on the inside. The Eucharist is purely a picture of something that happens without ceremony or rite in the Christian when he or she accepts Christ as Lord, and embraces him in their heart. Taking the Eucharist regularly is a reminder of that.

I can't see any mature Christian unable to see this. But a professional class of Christians, who are more dogmatic than spiritual, I can easily see as fostering a particular liturgy on people to make them dependent upon the priesthood. Young or naive Christians would most often accept the view of their leaders.

 

[Tulipbee]

Jesus fed five thousand men in John 6:1-14 by miraculously multiplying five barley loaves and two fish.

The next day:


The bread of spiritual life.



The Jews did not ask: How does the bread turn into his flesh?

They did not think that. They did not think in terms of transubstantiation.

How should we understand this then?

Jesus explains;


We are to understand this in terms of spiritual life. Jesus multiplied the bread. We should believe this as a sign of his being the bread of life. Such a belief would cause us to grow spiritually. It feeds our spirit.

How does the bread turn into the body/flesh of Christ?

It doesn't. The bread is a sign for us to believe so that we can grow—not fleshly—but spiritually.

See also This is my body or represents my body?.

In Calvinism, the understanding of the Lord's Supper, also known as the Eucharist or Communion, differs from some other Christian traditions, particularly Roman Catholicism. Calvinists generally adhere to a view known as "real presence" or "spiritual presence," as opposed to the Roman Catholic doctrine of transubstantiation.
In Calvinism:

1. Real Presence: Calvinists believe in the real presence of Christ in the Lord's Supper, but they interpret it differently than transubstantiation. The emphasis is on the spiritual and sacramental presence of Christ rather than a literal transformation of the bread and wine into the physical body and blood of Christ.
2. Symbolic or Spiritual Understanding: The bread and wine are considered symbolic elements that convey a profound spiritual reality. While the elements themselves do not physically change, Calvinists believe that in partaking of the Lord's Supper, believers spiritually commune with the risen Christ.
3. Meaningful Commemoration: The Lord's Supper is seen as a commemoration of Christ's sacrificial death on the cross, a means of grace, and a way for believers to express their faith and unity in Christ.

John Calvin, a key figure in the development of Reformed theology, wrote extensively on the Lord's Supper, emphasizing the spiritual communion of believers with Christ through faith rather than a physical transformation of the elements.
It's essential to recognize that views on the Lord's Supper can vary even within the Calvinist tradition, and the nuances of belief may depend on specific theological perspectives within this broader tradition.

 

[Webers_Home]

~
Jesus wrapped is teachings about dining upon his flesh and blood by saying:

"The words I have spoken to you are spirit"

Well; that's a bit of a problem because in black and white his words speak of
cannibalism; but what are those same words saying in spirit?

Take for example Jesus' opponents. Many of them were well-trained Torah
experts as far as the Jews' religious law went in black and white but were unable
to discern the spirit of the law. Consequently they quarreled with Jesus over his
application of the routine weekly sabbath day.
_

 

[Eternally Grateful]

It does not.

The bread of life given by the spirit are the words of the spirit.

That is what Gives life.

As Jesus said, you are clean because of the word I have spoken to you..

 

[Philip James]

How does the bread turn into the body/flesh of Christ?​

By the Power of the Holy Spirit!

The Word speaks reality into existence..

Let there be light, He says and there is light..

This is My Body, He says and so it is!


"It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life. 64 But there are some of you who do not believe.”

Is clearly not talking about Jesus; flesh. He just finished saying His flesh was the life of the world! To read it thus contradicts everything Jesus just finished saying...

It is our flesh, our natural reactions and thoughts and perceptions.. that are worthless..

Ignore the natural revulsion you feel at the thought and listen to His words!

Jesus said to them, "Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you.

Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day.

For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink.

Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him.


This has been the Faith of the Church for 2000 years..

and far from the canabalistic natural thoughts so many here express, it is nothing of the sort..


It is the Groom offering Himself to His bride, and she receiving Him, the two are made one...

"For this reason a man shall leave (his) father and (his) mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh."

This is a great mystery, but I speak in reference to Christ and the church.


All are welcome! To come to the wedding Feast of the Lamb of God!

Merry Christmas!

 

[TonyChanYT]

By the Power of the Holy Spirit!

Let proposition P1 = At communion, the physical bread is miraculously transformed into the physical flesh of Christ.

True?

 

[Philip James]

Let proposition P1 = At communion, the physical bread is miraculously transformed into the physical flesh of Christ.

True?

Hello Tony.

That depends by what you mean by ' at comminion'. It occurs at the consecration .

Happy New Year!

 

[TonyChanYT]

That depends by what you mean by ' at comminion'. It occurs at the consecration .

Let proposition P1 = At Eucharist Consecration, the physical bread is miraculously transformed into the physical flesh of Christ.

True?

 

[Webers_Home]

~
There's some difficulty associated with transubstantiation.

The flesh that Jesus' followers are supposed to eat is that of his crucified
body. (Luke 22:19 & 1Cor 11:24)

The difficulty of that is due to the fact that Jesus' crucified body no longer
exists. It has since been transformed into a glorified body. In other words;
his followers are supposed to eat the flesh of his deceased mortal body
whereas today Jesus has a living immortal body.

So then, in order for transubstantiation to work properly, portions of Jesus'
crucified dead body-- i.e. his corpse --would have to be reconstructed during
the Communion service.

I was baptized an infant into the Roman Catholic religion and anon
completed enough catechism for First Holy Communion and Confirmation.
Not once did my spiritual counselors-- a.k.a. the nuns and the priests --
inform me that the so-called "real presence" was the flesh of a dead man.
Had they done so; I'm not sure I would've had the stomach to eat it.
_

 

[Philip James]

Let proposition P1 = At Eucharist Consecration, the physical bread is miraculously transformed into the physical flesh of Christ.

True?

Hello Tony,

And not His flesh only. Christ is risen from the dead! Where His flesh is, there too are His blood, soul and divinity.. His entire person!

After the consecration Jesus is truly, manifestly present in the Eucharist!

Happy New Year!

 

[Philip James]

In other words;
his followers are supposed to eat the flesh of his deceased mortal body
whereas today Jesus has a living immortal body.

I don't know where you get this idea from.. We receive the risen, living Christ! See above..

Happy New Year!

 

[TonyChanYT]

And not His flesh only. Christ is risen from the dead! Where His flesh is, there too are His blood, soul and divinity.. His entire person!

Go ahead. Formulate a simple proposition that you believe to be true.

 

[Philip James]

Go ahead. Formulate a simple proposition that you believe to be true.

Simple? Haha yes as simple and as complicated as this:

I Am, I love you, Come and be united with Me

but for the sake of our discussion:

After the consecration Jesus is manifestly, truly, bodily present, veiled in the appearance of bread and wine.

Happy new Year!

 

[Webers_Home]

.

I don't know where you get this idea from

The information you seek is located in post #10
_

 

[TonyChanYT]

After the consecration Jesus is manifestly, truly, bodily present, veiled in the appearance of bread and wine.

I need a clear proposition that can be tested operationally and objectively by anyone as to be true or false so that people can place bets on the proposition. Can you write one?

 

[Wick Stick]

How does the bread turn into the body/flesh of Christ?​

It becomes part of the believers who ingest them. And those believers are the body of Christ.

 

[Webers_Home]

~
● John 6:53 . . Truly, Truly, I say to you: unless you eat the flesh of the Son
of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in yourselves.

The kind of life about which the Son of Man spoke is supernatural.

● John 6:54 . . He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life.

Eternal life is far and away superior to human life because it's the life of
God, i.e. it always was, it always is, and it always shall be because eternal
life is both perpetual and indestructible, viz: eternal life never gets old, it
never wears out, it never wears off, nor does it ever need replenishing
because it can't be used up with any more ease than God can be used up.
(1John 1:2-3)

That being the case with eternal life, then it's only necessary to obtain it one
time and one time only.

** Note the grammatical tense of John 6:54; it's present tense rather than
future; indicating that when people correctly dine upon Jesus flesh, and
correctly imbibe his blood, they obtain eternal life immediately: there's no
delay and no waiting period. (cf. John 5:24)

Now the thing is: eternal life is a very core element of New Testament
Christianity, viz: people who lack it also lack unity with God's son, i.e. they
are literally quite christless.

● 1John 5:9-13 . .We accept human testimony, but God's testimony carries
more weight because it is the testimony of God, which He has given about
His son. . . . And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and
this life is in His son. Whoever has the Son has the life; whoever who does
not have the life, does not have God's son.

There are well-meaning Christians out and about insisting that no one
obtains eternal life until they cross over to the other side. Beware making
that mistake because those folks are insinuating that God is a person of
marginal integrity who cannot be trusted to tell the truth.

● 1John 5:10 . . Anyone who does not believe God has made Him out to be a
liar, because he has not believed the testimony God has given about His
son.
_

 

[Philip James]

I need a clear proposition

Hello Tony,

was that not clear enough?

The consecrated Eucharist IS Jesus.

Pax et Bonum

 

[TonyChanYT]

The consecrated Eucharist IS Jesus.

We are experiencing a communication problem. I need a proposition that can be tested operationally and objectively by anyone as to be true or false so that people can place bets on the proposition. E.g., at the consecrated Eucharist, the physical bread is miraculously transformed into the physical flesh of Christ.

Can you stay focused enough to write a proposition that can be understood operationally by everyone who reads it? Can you put yourself in your readers' shoes? This is the last time I would ask you.