How far back in time can we trace religious worship?

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Bob

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As a basis for this discussion, we need an understanding of the characteristics a generic religious service.

Here are five elements common to community religious services. A community of faithful gathers . . .

1. In a sacred or holy place (a sanctuary), which is designated by symbols of the faith.
2. Under leadership of a designated holy person (priest, pastor, rabbi, shaman), who often wears clothing symbolic of the faith.
3. To thank God (or “gods”) for blessings received and to ask God (”gods”) for additional blessings.
4. To hear from the worship leader a message (homily, sermon), whose purpose is to strengthen tenets of the faith and cultural expectations.
5. To hear, see, and participate in music and dance, whose purpose is to strengthen tenets of the faith and cultural expectations.

Consider then the religious practices of the first groups of people, the tribes, and in particular shamanism, which is practiced even today in remote parts of the world. Their religious practices generally adhere to the five attributes listed above.

In particular, shamans are likely to wear animal headdresses. Also, they rely on mystical experiences that invite spiritual communications, which are induced in remote (sacred) locations by fasting, sleep deprivation, repetitive meditation & chanting, and/or hallucinogenic drugs.

Some of the most ancient European cave paintings include stick figures with animal headdresses. Moreover, some of the paintings are found extremely deep in caves, in alcoves that would hold one or at most two people, which would have been ideal for sensory deprivation while fasting.

According to the archeologist Jean Clottes (in his book ”What is Paleolithic Art?”) the figures with animal headdresses represent early tribal shamans.

And according to anthropologists, some of these cave figures date to the beginning of the Upper Paleolithic, over 40,000 years ago.

Final note: it is possible that the rock art of the Australian Aborigines goes back even farther, over 50,000 years.

Comments appreciated.
 

Bob

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At least you are talking thousands of years, not millions.
A small plus point.

:)
Thank you for taking time to read and comment on this post. Could you help me understand your comment? As usual, I am missing something (yes, brain cells, too). Maybe some context?
 
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Bob

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The earliest worship we have is Cain and Able in genesis some 6k years ago.
All worship of God and God's derives from them.
Help me understand why relying on an ancient genealogy for the age of the world is important to the Gospel.

All around us crime is increasing; more people than ever are zonked on drugs. “When the foundations are being shaken, what can the righteous do?” (Psalm 11:3)

Surely the answer is (with the help of the Holy Spirit) to persuade them to turn to God.

But why should they believe us that embracing God as guide and mentor will yield an abundant life more vibrant than they can imagine, if we insist that our universe is a mere 6,000 or so years old?

My intent is not to start an argument: just to understand your logic.
 

Windmillcharge

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why relying on an ancient genealogy for the age of the world is important to the Gospel

What is the gospel? Is it not that our sins can be forgiven, our relationship with God restored and we have the reality of a hope of a life to come.

Where does the idea of sin, a broken relationship with God and of a saviour come from, try Genesis 3.


Why should they believe anything if our source book, the bible, lies.
It is a question of authority.

Are man's ideas more authoritive than what God has revealed to us in the bible.
If one cannot trust genesis why should one trust anything in the bible.
 
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Bob

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What is the gospel? Is it not that our sins can be forgiven, our relationship with God restored and we have the reality of a hope of a life to come.

Where does the idea of sin, a broken relationship with God and of a saviour come from, try Genesis 3.


Why should they believe anything if our source book, the bible, lies.
It is a question of authority.

Are man's ideas more authoritive than what God has revealed to us in the bible.
If one cannot trust genesis why should one trust anything in the bible.
Thank you for taking time to reply to the request for clarification.

Your position seems to be that we must consider every word in the Bible to be literally true, in order to believe it is God’s word.

My position is that the Bible is indeed God’s word, but only insofar as it communicates God’s expectations to us (“Love Thy Neighbor“) and His promises (“I will always love you”). Otherwise, the Bible tells us how God feels about those who keep and those who break His commandments, how He often chooses the least to fulfill His purposes, and why we will always have hope for the future if we embrace Him as guide and mentor.

Note: God has given us brains sufficient to painstakingly unravel His marvelous design, and thereby use that understanding to improve our ability to help one another. Surely, it was not His intention for the Bible to answer questions about geology, physics, astronomy, chemistry, biology, ….

That said, it is not my intention to hammer you for your particular belief, which is widespread. My concern is that the insisting on a 6,000-year-old world will be a stumbling block to young people, science knowledgeable in particular, ready for God’s word. True, Jesus warned that only ”some of the seed” would “fall on fertile soil,” but if the “seed” itself is not viable, it will never sprout anywhere.

In the end, despite our differences of opinion, and these despairing times, I will rely on the belief that God will always fulfill His purposes!
 

Cassandra

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My position is that the Bible is indeed God’s word, but only insofar as it communicates God’s expectations to us (“Love Thy Neighbor“) and His promises (“I will always love you”). Otherwise, the Bible tells us how God feels about those who keep and those who break His commandments, how He often chooses the least to fulfill His purposes, and why we will always have hope for the future if we embrace Him as guide and mentor.
And how do you determine that? And are we supposed to lie to them about the age of the earth to bring them into the fold?

Genesis 1:1 makes perfect sense. In the beginning (time) God created the heavens (space) and the earth(matter.)
Ps 33:6-9
6 By the word of the Lord the heavens were made,
their starry host by the breath of his mouth.
7 He gathers the waters of the sea into jars[a];
he puts the deep into storehouses.
8 Let all the earth fear the Lord;
let all the people of the world revere him.
9 For he spoke, and it came to be;
he commanded, and it stood firm
 

BlessedPeace

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I'd say as far back as stone age people,if their cave paintings and burial practices are any indicator. As some Anthropologists believe is the case.
 

Windmillcharge

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My concern is that the insisting on a 6,000-year-old world will be a stumbling block to young people, science knowledgeable in particular, ready for God’s word.

Is God's word trustworthy and true, is it " God's word " ?
If it is then as 2 Tim 3:16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work. Say it is ALL scripture, not just what we pick and choose.

A question for you.
Why does science presume that creation is consistent?
Why do mathematics work?
Are they not borrowing from Christianity.
 

Bob

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Is God's word trustworthy and true, is it " God's word " ?
If it is then as 2 Tim 3:16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work. Say it is ALL scripture, not just what we pick and choose.

A question for you.
Why does science presume that creation is consistent?
Why do mathematics work?
Are they not borrowing from Christianity.
Thank you for your reply.

Re mathematics (which predates Christianity and Judaism): mathematics is pure logic. The real wonder is that mathematics can be used to unravel God’s design of the universe, which gives us more insight into the Mind of God.

You will need to clarify your question about science: I do not understand it. Science was formulated as being purely objective, with the purpose of understanding our physical world. “Most of the founders of the scientific revolution were devout Christians who held that in their scientific work they were studying the handiwork of the Creator” (Ian G. Barbour, “When Science Meets Religion”).

As for teaching scripture, the age of the universe in years is not in the Bible. If our goal in teaching is to move people to turn to God, then surely the focus should be on why God should be an integral part of their lives.
 

Bob

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And how do you determine that? And are we supposed to lie to them about the age of the earth to bring them into the fold?

Genesis 1:1 makes perfect sense. In the beginning (time) God created the heavens (space) and the earth(matter.)
Ps 33:6-9
6 By the word of the Lord the heavens were made,
their starry host by the breath of his mouth.
7 He gathers the waters of the sea into jars[a];
he puts the deep into storehouses.
8 Let all the earth fear the Lord;
let all the people of the world revere him.
9 For he spoke, and it came to be;
he commanded, and it stood firm
Thank you for your reply.

We both agree that God is the creator of our universe. The disagreement is the age: over 13 billion years according to science, versus ~6,000 (which does not appear in scripture).

Interestingly, after creating the universe, God waited over 8 billion years before creating our solar system (clearly God’s time is beyond our comprehension). Some scientific insights speculating why God waited so long are discussed in “The Privileged Planet,” by G. Gonzalez and J. Richards.

We can keep going, but the point is the same: God is in charge of His creation, and it has unfolded and will continue to unfold to fulfill His purposes.
 

Windmillcharge

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Thank you for your reply.

Re mathematics (which predates Christianity and Judaism): mathematics is pure logic. The real wonder is that mathematics can be used to unravel God’s design of the universe, which gives us more insight into the Mind of God.

You will need to clarify your question about science: I do not understand it. Science was formulated as being purely objective, with the purpose of understanding our physical world. “Most of the founders of the scientific revolution were devout Christians who held that in their scientific work they were studying the handiwork of the Creator” (Ian G. Barbour, “When Science Meets Religion”).

As for teaching scripture, the age of the universe in years is not in the Bible. If our goal in teaching is to move people to turn to God, then surely the focus should be on why God should be an integral part of their lives.

Real scientific advance occurred under the Christian view that a consistent, and reasonable God had created and sustained the universe.

Countries and religion without this made discoveries but never developed there science even though they were far more advanced than the Christian West.
If one believes in an arbitrary God or in magic advances in science are not consistent.


Yes we need to teach the bible, but the new testament makes no sense without genesis and the old testament.

Why do we need a saviour? Why are we sinners? Why can't we save ourselves?
The answers are in genesis and are illustrated through the rest of the O T.
 

MatthewG

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Since, Jesus walked the planet, 1500 years before he had come, which he always was.

So forever and a day.
 

Bob

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Real scientific advance occurred under the Christian view that a consistent, and reasonable God had created and sustained the universe.

Countries and religion without this made discoveries but never developed there science even though they were far more advanced than the Christian West.
If one believes in an arbitrary God or in magic advances in science are not consistent.


Yes we need to teach the bible, but the new testament makes no sense without genesis and the old testament.

Why do we need a saviour? Why are we sinners? Why can't we save ourselves?
The answers are in genesis and are illustrated through the rest of the O T.
Thank you for your reply.

Your opening sentence is a keeper—I couldn’t say it any better.
Also, I agree with the last sentence (even though my perspective is not quite the same).
May you have much success persuade unbelievers to turn to God. (Keep us posted.)
Peace and blessings.