"How I Wish TV Debates On Homosexuality Would Go"

[Foreigner]

This is an excellent representation of how a conversation about homosexuality SHOULD go.
It accurately addresses the false accusations of judging that are hurled at Christians just because they won't embrace the homosexual lifestyle.


FIRST-PERSON: How I wish TV debates on homosexuality would go

Trevin Wax - Managing editor of The Gospel Project, a curriculum line developed by LifeWay Christian Resources for all ages.


NASHVILLE, Tenn. (BP) -- Just once, I'd like to see a TV interview about homosexuality go more like this:

Host: You are a Christian pastor, and you say you believe the Bible, which means you are supposed to love all people.

Pastor: That's right.

Host: But it appears to me that you and your church take a rather unloving position when it comes to gay people. Are homosexuals welcome to come to your church?

Pastor: Of course. We believe that the Gospel is a message relevant for every person on the planet, and we want everyone to hear the Gospel and find salvation in Jesus Christ. So at our church, our arms are outstretched to people from every background, every race, every ethnicity and culture. We're a place for all kinds of sinners and people with all kinds of problems.

Host: But you said there, "We're a place for sinners." So you do believe that homosexuality is sinful, right?

Pastor: Yes, I do.

Host: So how do you reconcile the command to love all people with a position on homosexuality that some would say is radically intolerant?

Pastor: (smiling) If you think my position on homosexuality is radical, just wait until you hear what else I believe! I believe that a teenage guy and girl who have sex in the backseat of a pickup are sinning. The unmarried heterosexual couple living down the street from me is sinning. In fact, any sexual activity that takes place outside of the marriage covenant between a husband and wife is sinful. What's more, Jesus takes this sexual ethic a step further and goes to the heart of the matter. That means that any time I even lust after someone else, I am sinning. Jesus' radical view of sexuality shows all of us up as sexual sinners, and that's why He came to die. Jesus died to save lustful, homo- and heterosexual sinners and transform our hearts and minds and behavior. Because He died for me, I owe Him my all. And as a follower of Jesus, I'm bound to what He says about sex and morality.

Host: But Jesus didn't condemn homosexuality outright, did He?

Pastor: He didn't have to. He went to the heart issue and intensified the commands against immoral behavior in the Old Testament. So Jesus doesn't just condemn adultery, for example, as does one of the Ten Commandments. Jesus condemns even the lust that leads to adultery, all with the purpose of offering us transformed hearts that begin beating in step with His radical demands.

Host: You say he condemned adultery. But he chose not to condemn the woman caught in adultery.

Pastor: That's right, but He did tell her to "go and sin no more."

Host: But who are you to condemn someone who doesn't line up with your personal beliefs about sexuality?

Pastor: Who am I? No one. It's not all that important what I think about these things. This conversation about homosexuality isn't really about my personal beliefs. They're about Jesus and what He says. I have no right to condemn or judge the world. That right belongs to Jesus. My hope is to follow Him faithfully. That means that whatever He says in regard to sexual practices is what I believe to be true, loving and ultimately best for human flourishing -- even when it seems out of step with the whims of contemporary culture.

Host: But you are judging. You are telling all the gay people watching this broadcast that they are sinners.

Pastor: I'm not singling out gay people. I'm pointing to Jesus as the answer to all sexual sinfulness.

Host: But you are referring to gay people. Why are you so focused on homosexuality?

Pastor: (smiling) With all due respect, you are the one who brought up this subject.

Host: Are you saying that you can't be gay and Christian?

Pastor: No. I'm saying that you can't be a genuine Christian without repentance. Everyone -- including me -- is guilty of sin, but Christianity hinges on repentance. We agree with God about our sin, and we turn from it and turn toward Jesus. When it comes to Christianity, this debate is not about homosexuality versus other sins. It's about whether or not repentance is integral to the Christian life.

Host: But do you see why a homosexual watching this might think you are attacking them personally? You're saying that something is wrong with them.

Pastor: I think Jesus' teaching on sexuality shows us that there is something wrong with all of us -- something that can only be fixed by what Jesus did for us on the cross and in His resurrection. That said, I understand why people might think I am attacking them personally. Most people with same-sex desires believe they were born with these tendencies. That's why they often see their attraction as going to the very core of who they are, and so they identify themselves with the "gay" label. So whenever someone questions their behavior or desires, they take it as an attack on the very core of their being. That's usually not the intent of the person who disagrees with homosexual behavior. But that's the way it is perceived. I understand that.

Host: If it's true that a person is born with one sexual orientation or another, then how can it possibly be loving to condemn one person's orientation?

Pastor: Well, we really don't know for certain about sexual attraction being innate and set from birth. All we have is the testimony of people who say that they've experienced same-sex desires since childhood. Christianity teaches that all people are born with a bent toward sin. It's possible that some people will have a propensity toward alcohol abuse or angry outbursts, while others may have a propensity toward other sins. Regardless, Christians believe people are more than their sexual urges. We believe that human dignity is diminished whenever we define ourselves by sexual urges and behaviors. Consider this: Married men are sometimes attracted to multiple women who are not their wives. Does this mean they should self-identify as polygamists? Not at all. And surely you wouldn't consider it hateful for Christians to encourage married men not to act on their desires in an effort to remain faithful to their spouses. It is the Christian way, after all.

Host: No, but it still seems like you are telling people not to be true to who they are.

Pastor: It only seems that way because you believe sexual desire reflects the core of one's identity. It would help if you and others who agree with you would understand that in your putting pressure on me to accept homosexual behavior as normal and virtuous, you are going to the very core of my identity as a follower of Jesus. The label most important to me is "Christian." My identity -- in Christ -- is central to who I am. So I could say the same thing and call you intolerant, bigoted and hateful for trying to change a conviction that goes to the core of who I am as a Christian. I don't say that because I don't believe that's your intention. But neither should you think it's my intention to attack a homosexual person or cause them harm merely because I disagree.

Host: But the problem is, your position fosters hate and encourages bullying.

Pastor: I recognize that some people have mistreated homosexuals in the past. It's a shame that anyone anywhere would mock, taunt, or bully another human being made in God's image. That said, I think we need to make one thing clear in regard to civil discourse: To differ is not to hate. I hope we can still have a real conversation in this country about different points of view without casting one another in the worst possible light. The idea that disagreeing with homosexual behavior necessarily results in harm to gay people is designed to shut down conversation and immediately rule one point of view (in this case, the Christian one) out of bounds. As a Christian, I am to love my neighbor and seek his good, even when I don't see eye to eye with my neighbor. Furthermore, the picture of Christ on the cross dying for His enemies necessarily affects the way I think about this and other issues.

 

[aspen]

Not a bad dialog. I liked it that the pastor included everyone in sinfulness. I also liked that he pointed out that holding a different opinion is not the same thing as hating someone.

I think one of the problems I have is that the loudest Christians who believe homosexuality is a sin often cross the line between holding a point of view and expressing their point of view in a hateful manner.

On the other hand, it is true that homosexuals with the largest persecution complexes see all differing points of view as hateful.

The strange thing is that I clearly believe homosexuality is a sin, but I am not considered judgmental by homosexuals - at least to my face.

 

[Vengle]

Willful ignorance is what I see there.

Willful ignorance of what?

Willful ignorance of the fact that while Jesus did not condemn the sinner he did condemn the sin and said point blank, "go and sin no more."

People will stop at nothing to try and force God to accept them along with what violates His holiness because the truth is that they love their own bellies more than they love God.

In a sense the blame is not theirs alone, though. Many who profess to be teachers of religion and claim to understand that Old Law Covenant have presented things like as the eating of meats which God had previously said were fine for food (Genesis 9:3) as in and of itself bad. In so doing they obscured the point God was making that what God says is sin is sin. It has nothing to do with whether we think it is OK. God has total right to set whatever he wishes off limit to us even as He had that tree of the knowledge of good and evil (which is what His doing this with the meats equated to). (While at the same time picturing the sin in men.)

What a wise God we have.

How foolish men are.

Acts 10:15 "And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common."

And visa-versa.

 

[FHII]

[sup]No a bad dialogue.... I suppose we don't see that type of dialogue because it makes the host look foolish, its not good for ratings, or if it does happen, we don't hear about it because it's not "sensational". No controversy there.... Thus, not a really good news story. [/sup]

 

[danicachristian]

This is a great interesting discussion.

 

[lawrance]

The Pastor is spot on.
Today's PC views are so doctoral and do injury to all people in reality with an narrow pathetic low life point of view. and it's the work of Satan.
But the sinful brats in this world can not see jack as sin rules their lives and they are just like vampires running around inflicting all they can.

 

[aspen]

What is wrong with having a polite opinion?

 

[Miss Hepburn]

How I Wish TV Debates On Homosexuality Would Go away.
Ha!

 

[Foreigner]

What is wrong with having a polite opinion?

-- That's exactly what I have asked homosexual advocates who angrily initiate a conversation with me demanding in a loud voice to know why I am so stupid and judgmental as to actually believe that homosexuality is a sin.

 

[FHII]

That is a problem with homosexuals... To angry to accept it. Yea, they too often want a LOUD voice. They too often state, don't judge me. I can't deal with most of them because of that. They want Homosexuality to be NOT a sin (when it clearly is, and there is no way around it) and for good measure they want government money and a decree that their poopy don't stink.

They aren't all like that, but the majority of them are.

 

[aspen]

-- That's exactly what I have asked homosexual advocates who angrily initiate a conversation with me demanding in a loud voice to know why I am so stupid and judgmental as to actually believe that homosexuality is a sin.

Hmmm.....based on our conversations in the past, you seem to have no problem using sarcasm, mocking language and a scoffing aire to make your points.....you've even gone so far as to bring our conversations to class so that your classmates can join in. So it must not be the method that homosexual advocates use the really bothers you, just their message. Winning at any cost is right up your alley, isn't it?

That is a problem with homosexuals... To angry to accept it. Yea, they too often want a LOUD voice. They too often state, don't judge me. I can't deal with most of them because of that. They want Homosexuality to be NOT a sin (when it clearly is, and there is no way around it) and for good measure they want government money and a decree that their poopy don't stink.

They aren't all like that, but the majority of them are.

No one likes to feel judged or rejected, especially by someone else's standard. Their reaction seems natural to me. Also, if homosexuality bars people from justification and sanctification, why would you expect them to act like Christians?

 

[FHII]

No one likes to feel judged or rejected, especially by someone else's standard. Their reaction seems natural to me. Also, if homosexuality bars people from justification and sanctification, why would you expect them to act like Christians?

Of course they don't like feeling judged or rejected. Real Christianity does judge and reject, but not based upon fleshly actions. So yea, it is a "natural" reaction. The problem is that it's not a spiritual reaction.

Aspen, homosexuality is a sin. Not as big as some make it out to be, but not a small one either. But it is a sin.

I remember reading one article from a news service where gays were going into a Catholic Church with "rainbow" shirts. Initially, I was againt the Catholic Church for it, but when I read the news article, they were going in as "gays" and as a "gay group". I am against that. They were trying to push their agenda on religion. Had they gone in and said, "Sure, we are sinners, can we receive mercy through the death and resurrection of Christ", I would have no problem with it. But they went in with the attitude that "we are gay, and you are going to accept us because we are gay!"

Wrong way to make a stand!

 

[aspen]

Of course they don't like feeling judged or rejected. Real Christianity does judge and reject, but not based upon fleshly actions. So yea, it is a "natural" reaction. The problem is that it's not a spiritual reaction.

Aspen, homosexuality is a sin. Not as big as some make it out to be, but not a small one either. But it is a sin.

I remember reading one article from a news service where gays were going into a Catholic Church with "rainbow" shirts. Initially, I was againt the Catholic Church for it, but when I read the news article, they were going in as "gays" and as a "gay group". I am against that. They were trying to push their agenda on religion. Had they gone in and said, "Sure, we are sinners, can we receive mercy through the death and resurrection of Christ", I would have no problem with it. But they went in with the attitude that "we are gay, and you are going to accept us because we are gay!"

Wrong way to make a stand!

You are right, homosexuality is a sin......but, like all sin, it is tolerated by God, based on the fact that He allows it to exist for a time. Why are we trying to make sinners reform without sharing the gospel of love with them? We are not going to legislate homosexuals into the Kingdom, nor will we suceed in convincing them of their sin by publically barring them from churches.

I agree that homosexuals who use the church to make a political statement are in the wrong, similar to politicians and activists. I grew up in SF....I have seen it all - homosexuals dressed as clowns and taking the Eucharist........they need prayer because of their rebellious hearts as well as their other sins. I really believe thaat we have brought a lot of this anger on ourselves because we have overblown the sin of homosexuality. Many homosexuals are responding to us like rebellious teenagers and the more we try to restrict them, the more tney will react by rebellion. Christ's example of love is the only way to lower their defenses long enough to take a good look at themselves. Remember, it is the HS that convicts the sinner.....the least we can do is prepare the soil with love and acceptance of the person.

I remember, as a kid, having a terrible habit of saying the Lord's name whenever I was frustrated or angry. I was spending a lot of time with mormon family at the time and they pointed out that they didn't allow any form of the Lords name to be used in vain in their house. I thought it was a stupid rule.......after all, I wasn't Mormon (or Christian, at the time). They were not preachy or naggy about the rule, but I could see them cringing when I broke it. Realizing that this family loved me encouraged me to make a real effort to chage my behavior.....even when I didn't share their belief system. Now, as a christian, i a thankful for their gift, which would have not been possible without persistant love.

I belief we are called to persistant love. The Kingdom of God is like a stream......over time, it shapes rocks, valleys and even mountains. It may seem weak and woefully ineffective at times, but never fails to convert the whole person......not just the mind.

 

[lawrance]

The Devil is working in the so called gay mobs.
And thats the problem, as people now are so PC about let live and let live nonsense and they are just so hostile to any christian point of view that they want to start fighting and push us around.
And the fact is we christians are not doing any harm to them at all but they now are pushing full on and defiling the truth of marriage by dragging it down into just rubbish filthy low life point of view.
They like showing up the lowest denominator stance of foolish idiots that get divorce etc.
The only reason people get divorce is they are out of step with God.
Moses allowed it due to the hardness of their heart. but in Christ it is not so and that is what we are talking about as Christians as it is a sacrament.
If Gays want partner ships that fine but it can not be called a marriage in the true sense as it is an grave offence.

 

[Foreigner]

Hmmm.....based on our conversations in the past, you seem to have no problem using sarcasm, mocking language and a scoffing aire to make your points.....you've even gone so far as to bring our conversations to class so that your classmates can join in.

-- Honestly Aspen. You sometimes have blank spot where your memory should be. A quick perusal of a number of your posts shows that you too have frequently been "using sarcasm, mocking language and a scoffing aire to make your points....." To point it out in me, but to pretend you yourself do not do the same is hypocrisy, plain and simple. But I would expect no less from a man who arrogantly claims that anyone who opposes gay marraige is, "violating their civil rights."

I had forgotten that I had taken one of our conversations to my Debate and Discussions class. It was part of my presentation. I put yours and my conversation on the screen but didn't let them know one of the people involved was me until the very end. You were 'subject A' and I was 'subject B.'The professor absolutely tore your comments apart. He said you were "more concerned with saving face" than actually engaging in discussion. You "repeatedly changed the subject/focus because you were unable to present a viable argument," and "resorted to personal attacks when there were no facts to support your position." He also pointed out that you make a blanket accusation giving the false impression that everyone in a specific group acts a specific way instead of just some. It was awesome. Thanks for reminding me. Good memories.

So it must not be the method that homosexual advocates use the really bothers you, just their message. Winning at any cost is right up your alley, isn't it?

-- LOL Yet another unsupported accusation because you do not like how the conversation has gone. How priceless. Unfortunately for you, the actual facts (again) do not support your statement. The method 'homosexual advocates' use is not the problem. They are normally aggressive, angry, and if they can't make you kowtow then they insult you, sometimes in a very vile manner. The "winning at any cost" moniker fits them (and you) more than it does me.

I endure those attacks, remain calm, continue to smile and share in an even tone. 'Winning' isn't the goal. Sharing in hopes of helping them understand they are loved by God...is. I have been screamed at, spit at, grabbed, shoved, and had things thrown at me. It seems strange considering that they were the ones who initiated the conversation and demanded to know where I stand.

But thankfully not all homosexuals are in that 'homosexual acvocate' group. Some actually want to discuss and are truly curious as to why Christians feel the way they do about homosexuality.

But Aspen, by your own admission, you aren't even in the game, preferring to give blanket criticisms from the stands. You said you had four friends who were homosexuals and have never shared the Gospel with them. Only one asked if you were a Christian and your whole dialog with them was simply to say "yes." Nothing else.

When I have spoken with homosexuals, the only time I have initiated the conversation is when it is someone who is a friend of mine and with whom I have had an ongoing relationship. The 'homosexual advocates' are always the ones approaching me. I tell them that yes, in answer to their question, God does indeed feel that homosexuality is a sin.
And yes, in answer to their question, if they do not turn away from it then they will not see heaven.

I also point out that that is the same for people who are engaged in sex outside of marraige, people who are committing adultery, people who steal, people who lie, etc. etc. etc.

I stress that God sees all those sins on the same level and those that do not turn away from those sins will not see heaven, either.

I also tell them that I too practiced many of those sins and if I had not turned away from them then I too would be going to hell. I give specific examples from my own life, explain how I initially rejected addressing them (justifying them in my mind), but finally submitted and was able to give them over to Jesus. I also stress for them that Jesus loves them. Enough to die for them.

He loves them just as much as he loves me or any other person. I emphasize that he died on the cross for them just as much as for me and that his sacrifice for them means they don't have to suffer damnation if they turn to him and accept him.

Unlike you who - by your own admission - say you don't share the Gospel with them but rather just 'love' them (assuming apparently that via osmosis they will then come to realize they need to turn away from sin and follow Jesus),

I actually speak with them. Why? Because that is what God has called on us to do. Share the Gospel. Even non-Christians can love others unconditionally from their heart.

By remaining silent and just 'loving' you are actually doing more harm than good. You are giving the impression that the sin itself really isn't that serious. You are literally 'loving' that person into damnation.

The Gospel will always be offensive to some, no matter how gently and lovingly it is presented. But God still calls us to proactively share it. Why? People's eternal life depends on it.

And while I have prayed with some of them and watched them give their lives to Jesus, you are content to make false accusations against me and other Christians from your lawnchair on the sidelines.

That's okay, I forgive you. But that doesn't mean I have to remain silent about it.

 

[aspen]

Wow! That was quite a rant! I stand by everything I have said on this board. I believe we may never see eye to eye on many of the topics that are discussed on this board, but I respect your knowledge of the scriptures and I enjoy reading your posts when you are simply making statements rather than being vendictive or trying to win points.

It seems to me that we have a different understanding of how to present and live out the gospel. I am relationship focused and you appear to be focused on presenting right doctrine in the right manner. I think we are both sincerely trying to respond to Christ's example and revelation in our lives. God can work through different people and different approaches.

I view people who struggle with homosexuality as broken and loved by God - like all people they cherished and persued by God, therefore proceeding with grace and love is my number one concern when talking with them. As soon as you get beyond the defenses of most people who are hurt, there is a person who is willing to be vulnerable and share and listen.

I have never experienced success preaching the gospel on the street corner - relationship trumps the sterile presentation of doctrine everytime in my experience.

Finally, it surprises me that you would present my opinions to a debate class....makes about as much sense as me taking your attempts to debate my opinions to an ethics class.

In any case, your posts have always interested me, I am interested to know what you are like in real life.