I shall recieve you to myself when?

[jeffweeder]

The promise[/COLOR]--Jesus is coming .
JN 1333 "Little children, I am with you a little while longer. You will seek Me; and as I said to the Jews, now I also say to you, 'Where I am going, you cannot come.'

36 Simon Peter said to Him, "Lord, where are You going?" Jesus answered, "Where I go, you cannot follow Me now; but you will follow later."
Why not?
1cor 1551 Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.
We can not go with him now, neither do the dead go there yet . There is a day of redemption of our bodies, and Jesus said " I shall raise you the last day..".
JN 141 "Do not let your heart be troubled; believe in God, believe also in Me. 2 "In My Father's house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you. 3 "If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also. 4 "And you know the way where I am going."
This must be the scripture where Jesus tells us of the rapture---"and I shall recieve you to myself"- this is the day we all yearn and groan for, to be with him 4ever.So what is evident so far is-- when he raises the dead ,is when he comes back to recieve us as promised[/COLOR]We can not go to be with him now ,because flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom.The living cannot precede to his presense until the dead are raised first.
1thess 415 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord,[/COLOR] that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.
This means that we will have to know endurance and perseverance to face the times ahead- and ill use Peter this time as he addressed it very well;
2pet 33 Know this first of all, that in the last days mockers will come with their mocking, following after their own lusts, 4 and saying, "Where is the promise [/COLOR]of His coming?10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up. 11 Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be destroyed by burning, and the elements will melt with intense heat! 13 But according to His promise [/COLOR]we are looking for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells. 14 Therefore, beloved, since you look for these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, spotless and blameless, 15 and regard the patience of our Lord as salvation; just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you, 16 as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction. 17 You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, be on your guard so that you are not carried away by the error of unprincipled men and fall from your own steadfastness,

matt 2435 "Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away. 36 "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone. 37 "For the[25][Lit just as...were the days ] coming of the Son of Man will be just like the days of Noah
Even so come Lord Jesus.Certainly looking post trib according to the NT, how about the OT;
JOB 1410 "But man dies and lies prostrate. Man expires, and where is he? 11 "As water evaporates from the sea, And a river becomes parched and dried up, 12 So man lies down and does not rise. Until the heavens are no longer, He will not awake nor be aroused out of his sleep. 13 "Oh that You would hide me in Sheol, That You would conceal me until Your wrath returns to You, That You would set a limit for me and remember me! 14 "If a man dies, will he live again? All the days of my struggle I will wait Until my change comes. 15 "You will call, and I will answer You; You will long for the work of Your hands. 16 "For now You number my steps, You do not observe my sin.

17 "My transgression is sealed up in a bag, And You wrap up my iniquity.

We arent going anywhere until he comes again.When he said i shall raise you the LAST DAY, he wasnt exaggerating.God bless all :study:

 

[jodycour]

I believe that there has been one type of rapture already!Mathew 27:52And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, Vs.53And come out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.If these were just spirits walking around, why did the graves have to be opened?Plus it speaks of literal bodies in vs.52

 

[Christina]

No one is arguing Rapture Jody just the timing God says its at the last trumpAnd all will be changed. Men say Pre-trib who you gonna believe? As Wakka pointed out this is mainly an American church belief because its not taught in scripture. Just our fast food churches.

 

[jeffweeder]

I believe that there has been one type of rapture already!Mathew 27:52And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, Vs.53And come out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.If these were just spirits walking around, why did the graves have to be opened?Plus it speaks of literal bodies in vs.52
I dont think these ressurected ones were raptured away with the lord when he ascended.He goes to prepare a place for us, then comes back to recieve us all.These slept, but the day we are changed is still future--no glorified bodies yet.

 

[RND]

(jeffweeder;13239)
We arent going anywhere until he comes again.When he said i shall raise you the LAST DAY, he wasnt exaggerating.
Amen!Isn't it interesting how folks just love to use 2 Corinthians 5:8 before using 1 Corinthians 15:50-53?

 

[jodycour]

(jeffweeder;13272)
I dont think these ressurected ones were raptured away with the lord when he ascended.He goes to prepare a place for us, then comes back to recieve us all.These slept, but the day we are changed is still future--no glorified bodies yet.
So Your saying that Jesus Resurrected these people and then killed them again so that they had to go back into they're graves?why where the graves opened? It also says that they walked around in bodily form!I'm not going to argue the point of when the rapture will happen, I'm still doing some research on this issue! Kriss!

 

[RND]

(jodycour;13349)
So Your saying that Jesus Resurrected these people and then killed them again so that they had to go back into they're graves?
The same Holy Spirit that resurrected those in Matthew 27:50-53 is the same Holy Spirit that resurrected Jesus.1Peter 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:The Bible is completely silent, that is it says nothing regarding the disposition of those resurrected saints in Matthew 27:50-53 so it would be pure speculation has to what happened to these saints.Some believe they continued to live life until a second natural death, some believe they ascended to Heaven with Christ, a kind of 'first fuits' to the Lord. The Bible does not speak regarding the identity of these saints, who they are, what they are, or what even made them saints.
why where the graves opened?
The Bible does not say, we are only able to speculate.
It also says that they walked around in bodily form!
Indeed. More proof that those that die are resurected in bodily form from the grave, not that our souls float away to Heaven where they are then transported back to Earth for resurrection at the Second Coming.
I'm not going to argue the point of when the rapture will happen, I'm still doing some research on this issue! Kriss!
If Jesus' has no idea when He is coming, then certainly no man will. Yet we are to watch and be mindful of His soon coming.

 

[jodycour]

RND,This is some thing that we agree on!I did'nt mean for my last statement to mean that I was researching when Jesus was coming.What I was referring to was the Pre-tribulation Rapture.That I'm doing research on to beable to argue what I believe on the issue!

 

[RND]

(jodycour;13351)
That I'm doing research on to beable to argue what I believe on the issue!
How about doing research on what the Bible teaches about the rapture?

 

[jodycour]

That's the subject of my research!

 

[RND]

(jodycour;13427)
That's the subject of my research!
Jody, you suggested you are doing research on what you believe on the subject of the rapture.
Originally Posted by jodycour That I'm doing research on to beable to argue what I believe on the issue!
I suggested doing research on what the Bible says about the rapture.There is a difference.Once you begin to believe what the Bible says, as opposed to what men say, you'll have a greater grip on what the scriptures say.That's how I got over my 'dim-whitted' beliefs on the 'secret rapture.' Once a little light is shed, it's hard to believe in wife's tales and fiction novels having any Biblical truth in them.

 

[Christina]

Jody heres somthing for you to think about from Rev.Most churches of today don't realize that at the sounding of the seventh trumpet and Jesus Christ's return, all of the churches will still be right here on earth. This was pointed out in the first couple chapters of Rev. The churches John saw, the "seven candlesticks", were right here on earth on the "Day of the Lord". On that "Day of the Lord" the entire tribulation is over, finished, and the churches [candlesticks] are still on the earth.

 

[jeffweeder]

So Your saying that Jesus Resurrected these people and then killed them again so that they had to go back into they're graves?why where the graves opened? It also says that they walked around in bodily form!I'm not going to argue the point of when the rapture will happen, I'm still doing some research on this issue! Kriss!
HiI think they did die again, othwise he wouldnt have said these things from the first post.
Quote:JN 1333 "Little children, I am with you a little while longer. You will seek Me; and as I said to the Jews, now I also say to you, 'Where I am going, you cannot come.' Quote:36 Simon Peter said to Him, "Lord, where are You going?" Jesus answered, "Where I go, you cannot follow Me now; but you will follow later." Quote:JN 141 "Do not let your heart be troubled; believe in God, believe also in Me. 2 "In My Father's house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you. 3 "If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also. 4 "And you know the way where I am going."
If they didnt die again then they are all still alive somewhere as they didnt go with him.A mystery hey, but paul helps us to understand it,
Quote:1cor 1551 Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.
This is the timing of being gathered to him-its a time when he gathers from among the living and the dead.Paul is emphatic that the dead in Christ are raised first then those alive at the time will raptured away with them to meet the lord in the air.In other words the lord does not gather to himself, before the ressurection.He told us- when he comes again he will recieve us to himself.ressurection = rapture, as the living do not precede to be with him until it happens
1thess 415 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord,[/color] that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.
People are not going to suddenly dissappear before the end then ,as the living wait for the ressurection, they wait for their Lord to come and raise them the very last day at the very last trumpet when he recieves us and we inherit the kingdom of God-The new heaven and the new earth.

 

[Christina]

you got it right Jeff thats exactly when he comes and we are changed the last trump not untill. This is the only gathering together with the lord in scripture

 

[tim_from_pa]

OK folks---- one more time. I'll say this much about the "rapture". I won't reveal in this forum when I believe it will happen. I won't even reveal if I believe in a "fly-away" rapture because of the stance that this forum takes lest I be said that I am taking one position over the other.But I will say this, and this statement may help those trying to work it out.When Jesus returns, there will be Armageddon, and judgments both of the nations and Israel and all this good stuff. Got me so far? Jesus then speaks of the parable of the sheep and goat judgment when he returns. Goats will perish in fire. Sheep will inherit the kingdom. The assumption is that these are believers, both Gentile and Israelites during the tribulation. With me so far? therefore, they have to be translated when he returns. So there are two groups of people: goats (in the fire) and sheep (in the kingdom and translated). Are there any live-blooded people left? Not by this reasoning.Yet, there are real live-blooded people to inherit the kingdom as Jesus returns to claim the throne of David presently held by Her Majesty. The church will rule and reign with Christ over real people and Israel (yet in the flesh) will be exalted. These are extensions of the Abrahamic promises.What does that say about the "timing" of this translation/rapture or whatever? I'll let the ball in the court of the readers to figure out. I personally won't make it a salvation issue and I hope my readers will appreciate the logic involved.I often joke that I am the only "British-Israelite" that believes the way I do....The mainline church is at odds with my lost tribe doctrine and the BI's don't like my rapture/translation timing. Well, I reason things logically and what I believe is in accordance with God's Word. Being a math minor, I have no problem with logic.

 

[brotherbernard]

Good morning everyone,May I contribute a word or two? At one time, when I was researching the second coming of Christ, I happened across something which I tucked away for further thought and research. I would like to share it with you. It's found in 1 Thess. 4:17;"After that, we who are still alive and left will be caught up with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air". I know that we are all familiar with the text and that it has been used to support a number of different interpretations, but I would like to point out something interesting. The greek verb translated "to meet" is used only 3 times in the NT. Now, that is interesting in itself, but how that verb was used in the culture of the time is a mind-blower. Apparently, when a visiting diplomat or royal representative visited a neighboring country or nation, he or she would arrive approaching the walled city in a long parade or retinue of celebration - something that he brought with him from his own country. As the procession approached the city, the gates would fly open and those who supported and accepted this visiting prince or king would go out "to meet" him and then join the long procession of celebration. What is interesting, is that the procession then went into the city and the celebration began in earnest! In the past, whenever I read that particular passage in scripture, I would of course interpret it as meaning that those that went "to meet" the Lord went back with Him (at the point of meeting) and returned to heaven. But, and I only wish to make a suggestion here, what if this text followed the cultural usage of the verb "to meet". That is, when we meet the Lord in the air, we join with His triumphant procession and continue on with Him to His destination - the earth. Now, I can only speculate what would happen then, but in my mind it fits with the establishment of the Father making Christ's enemies His footstool, etc. What do you think? I know that it is a different approach to the passage, but at least its a very interesting approach.Christ plus nothing,Brother Bernard

 

[Bamp;#39;midbar]

(brotherbernard;13800)
"After that, we who are still alive and left will be caught up with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air". I know that we are all familiar with the text and that it has been used to support a number of different interpretations, but I would like to point out something interesting. The greek verb translated "to meet" is used only 3 times in the NT.
I looked up the other two places. I found one especially interesting. It happens in the parable of the ten virgins and the kingdom of heaven. Here is the relevant line:
Matthew 25:6 "But at midnight there was a shout, 'Behold, the bridegroom! Come out to meet him.'
After the bridegroom comes, the five prudent virgins go into the wedding feast with him and the door is shut.The other location is here:
Acts 28:15 And the brethren, when they heard about us, came from there as far as the Market of Appius and Three Inns to meet us; and when Paul saw them, he thanked God and took courage.

 

[brotherbernard]

Thanks B'midbar. That's interesting. Christ plus nothing,Brother Bernard

 

[Christina]

(brotherbernard;13800)
Good morning everyone,May I contribute a word or two? At one time, when I was researching the second coming of Christ, I happened across something which I tucked away for further thought and research. I would like to share it with you. It's found in 1 Thess. 4:17;"After that, we who are still alive and left will be caught up with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air". I know that we are all familiar with the text and that it has been used to support a number of different interpretations, but I would like to point out something interesting. The greek verb translated "to meet" is used only 3 times in the NT. Now, that is interesting in itself, but how that verb was used in the culture of the time is a mind-blower. Apparently, when a visiting diplomat or royal representative visited a neighboring country or nation, he or she would arrive approaching the walled city in a long parade or retinue of celebration - something that he brought with him from his own country. As the procession approached the city, the gates would fly open and those who supported and accepted this visiting prince or king would go out "to meet" him and then join the long procession of celebration. What is interesting, is that the procession then went into the city and the celebration began in earnest! In the past, whenever I read that particular passage in scripture, I would of course interpret it as meaning that those that went "to meet" the Lord went back with Him (at the point of meeting) and returned to heaven. But, and I only wish to make a suggestion here, what if this text followed the cultural usage of the verb "to meet". That is, when we meet the Lord in the air, we join with His triumphant procession and continue on with Him to His destination - the earth. Now, I can only speculate what would happen then, but in my mind it fits with the establishment of the Father making Christ's enemies His footstool, etc. What do you think? I know that it is a different approach to the passage, but at least its a very interesting approach.Christ plus nothing,Brother Bernard
The history of thessolonians and ll Thess.Paul started this church and within a few weeks had to leave the area. It was made up of Jews and gentiles (new christians) it was infiltraded by some false doctrine being taught by another group (name ecapes me ) when Paul heard what they were teaching he quickley send his second letter to them (ll Thess.) to correct the error they were teaching. What did he say to them? 2 Thessalonians 2The Man of Lawlessness Thess2:1 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers, Thess 2:2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the day of the Lord has already come. 2:3 Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for (that day will not come) until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness[a] is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. The lord will not come till after Satan(antichrist,lawless one) 2:4 He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God. This ambomination of desolation2:5 Don't you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things? 2:6 And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. 2:7 For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way.2:8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming.2:9 The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders, So the thessolonians mistakenly thought Christ had returned and they were going to gathered together any moment. Paul corrects them so l thess as you know can not be used as proof of rapture because it was a false teaching that had infiltraded themif they say I am here I am there do not believe it.

 

[Christina]

Some history of ThessoloniansThis is the situation that the fledgling Christian congregation in Thessolonica found itself in. As the story unfold in the seventeenth chapter of Acts, Paul had come to Thessolonica after he was freed from prison in Philipi by an earthquake. He spent about three weeks in Thessolonica before persecution of his new converts to Christianity got so bad that he had to leave the city for his own safety. He sent Timothy back from Corinth and when Timothy returned to tell of the trials that the Thessolonians were going through, Paul felt moved to write them his first pastoral letter, part of what we now call the epistles (after the Greek word for "letter") . He intended to bolster their faith in the face of great persecution. The Thessolonians had to keep struggling just to stay in place. They were new Christians; many of them were Greek converts, who did not have the benefit of a strong scriptural knowledge held by many of the Jewish converts. They were in a city filled with sin and immoral practices, and were trying to conform their lives to their status as new men and women in Jesus Christ. The temptations were very strong, but they were learning how to draw on their faith to enable them to resist. In this letter, Paul starts by telling the members of this congregation just how he feels about them, and how he views their relationship with God. In the last half of the letter, he gives them some very practical advice about how to live in a society that does not share their values. It is under these circumstances of new and struggling christians that a false doctrine slips into their mists. When Paul gets this report he quickly pens his second letter. To correcttheir misunderstandings.And from a second historical account:The first letter of Paul to the Thessalonians is also the first letter the apostle wrote. It was written to a struggling, yet vigorous church that was only a few months old, made up of Christians who had just come to Christ under Paul's ministry. This is a delightfully revealing letter, showing the heart of the apostle toward these new Christians, and also showing the struggles that were present in the early church. We sometimes get very distorted conceptions of these early Christians; there's a tendency to regard them as always triumphant, always waging the battle with vigor, and always winning great victories in Christ's name. But they also had very severe problems, some of which are reflected in this letter. It was written about 50 A.D., and may well be the first part of our New Testament to be written. Most scholars feel that the gospels were written about this same time or shortly afterward, though some hold that the gospel of Matthew, and perhaps of Mark, appeared about 43 or 45 A.D. At any rate, this letter is at least one of the earliest Christian writings. The account of Paul's founding of this church is recorded in the seventeenth chapter of Acts. After he and Silas were thrown into prison in Philippi because of their preaching of the Gospel, an earthquake shook down the prison doors and freed the prisoners. Paul was then freed by the Roman magistrates, and he left Philippi and went to Thessalonica. Many of the places where Paul preached have crumbled into ruin, but Thessalonica is still a thriving, bustling metropolis. It was then the capital of Macedonia, but it is now in Greece proper, and is called Thessalonike. From the account in Acts, we learn that Paul had only been there about three weeks when persecution began and he had to leave the city for his own safety. He went down to Athens and from there he sent Timothy back to Thessalonica to see how these Christians were doing. He was very disturbed about them; he felt that perhaps the persecution they were undergoing would drive them from their faith. He went on to Corinth where he founded a church after several months of difficult labor. After some time, Timothy returned to him at Corinth, bringing word of how the Thessalonians were doing, and of some of the problems they were facing. As we read this little letter through, we can recognize them as the kind of problems that we also face. For one thing, wherever the Apostle Paul went, he was hounded by a group of Jews who spread the rumor that because he was not one of the original twelve, he was not a genuine apostle. This was not only a problem for Paul, but also for the Thessalonians. Furthermore, the pagans of Thessalonica were severely persecuting the Christians -- threatening them, and taking away their property -- so these early Christians, perhaps only three or four weeks old in the Lord, were called upon to endure hard things for the cause of Christ. In that city, as in all the Greek cities, sexual promiscuity was common -- was even regarded as a religious right -- and to live a life of chastity was to be regarded as a freak. Therefore, as is the case today, there was great pressure upon these new Christians to fall into line with the common sex practices of their day. Then the major problem of this church was that the second coming of Jesus Christ was greatly misunderstood. The apostle had evidently told them something, but they were confused about this, which produced another grave problem. Some of them were expecting Christ to come back so imminently that they had actually stopped working and were waiting for him to come. Since they weren't earning a living, somebody had to take care of them, and they were leeches on the rest of the congregation. Also, there were tensions developing between the congregation and the church leaders which needed some admonition to settle, and finally, there were those who were somewhat indifferent to the Holy Spirit's work among them, and to the truth of God as it was being proclaimed in the Scriptures. This is when Paul writes his second letter it was very impairitive to Paul to correct this teachings about the timing of the Coming of the Lord