Identity Change

[GodsGrace]

I do hear what you are saying. Your effort is appreciated by me and others certainly even if perhaps not sometimes by the particular person you are addressing. Unfortunately, this happens in this world because who people are or who they are not.

Thanks A.
I used to say many times that I post for those reading along...
Lately I've been forgetting this....
Must remember that we post for those we don't even know....
our readers.

 

[Crossings Collinsville]

Philippians 3 is great - also Romans 6:3-5 on the topic of identity change. Being "born again" means you're a new person

 

[Grailhunter]

@soul man

When I read this I was reminded of something I wrote a couple of years ago on another forum. I may also have shown it in this forum before but it would still seem appropriate for me to show it again in connection with your OP. First to help anyone unfamiliar with them I will show the meanings of the two names according to Strongs:

bq[y Ya`aqob (yah-ak-obe'); Proper Name Masculine, Strong #: 3290

Jacob = "heel holder" or "supplanter"

1. son of Isaac, grandson of Abraham, and father of the 12 patriarchs of the tribes of Israel

larXy Yisra'el (yis-raw-ale'); Proper Name Masculine, Strong #: 3478

Israel = "God prevails"

1. the second name for Jacob given to him by God after his wrestling with the angel at Peniel
2. the name of the descendants and the nation of the descendants of Jacob
   1. the name of the nation until the death of Solomon and the split
   2. the name used and given to the northern kingdom consisting of the 10 tribes under Jeroboam; the southern kingdom was known as Judah
   3. the name of the nation after the return from exile

Quite a long time ago now it caught my attention that after Jacob received his new name of Israel, much of the time in scripture he was still addressed by Jacob. So I decided to count the number of Jacobs and the number of Israels in scripture. It amazed me that in spite of the change by God, the use of Jacob in the book of Genesis while he still lived was greater than the use of his new name of Israel. I did a quick search in computer which has tons of my writings and studies over the years, but was unable to find my early results. So I counted them again using both my computer and my hardback Strong's. [The computer only is able in my program to provide a chapter total: no partial chapters.]

Jacob was first mentioned in Gen 25:26. Jacob was last mentioned in Gen 50:24.
Israel was first mentioned in Gen 32:28. Israel was last mentioned in Gen 50:25

The word Jacob was used 181 times in the whole Book of Genesis.
The word Jacob was used 70 times in Gen 32:28 to 50:26 when the other name had also been given.
The word Israel was used 40 times in Gen 32:28 to 50:26.

The word Jacob was used 196 times from Exodus to Revelation.
The word Israel was used 2533 times from Exodus to Revelation.

The word Jacob was used 377 times in the whole Bible.
The word Israel was used 2576 times in the whole Bible.

The reason I separated from the rest of the Bible in my counts is that the man, Jacob/Israel died in the Book of Genesis.

It had occurred to me the first time as it does now that in spite of a glorious reason for giving the new name the old name was used so much more while the man still lived. Could it be that God realized that the man in spite of a notable promise of things to come was still so much in his old nature rather than the new throughout most of his life even after receiving the new name? Thus in the inspiration given to the writers, Jacob still was dominant while he drew natural breath, at least until toward the end. Only after his death did the name of Israel prevail so heavily against Jacob and then most of the time it was referring to a nation rather than a single man.

It does provide food for thought, doesn't it?

Hello there brother amadeus,
I will point out some of this can be the trappings of the literal reading of the scriptures. Sometimes you have to step back from the literal. If not, you may not see the forest for the trees... Christ was called Emmanuel....God is with us....but not to many times. And it relates to Isaiah chapter 7&8. Which insinuated that if you do not believe, your enemy will be upon you. So amadeus, I submit that God giving Jacob the name of Israel, was an indication that he would be founder of the nation of Israel. Not as much as a name.

 

[amadeus]

Hello there brother amadeus,
I will point out some of this can be the trappings of the literal reading of the scriptures. Sometimes you have to step back from the literal. If not, you may not see the forest for the trees... Christ was called Emmanuel....God is with us....but not to many times. And it relates to Isaiah chapter 7&8. Which insinuated that if you do not believe, your enemy will be upon you. So amadeus, I submit that God giving Jacob the name of Israel, was an indication that he would be founder of the nation of Israel. Not as much as a name.

I hear what you are saying and in one sense you certainly could be correct. However with Emmanuel you have a very positive name, "God with us" of an always very positive person whose name in the gospels, Jesus, also has a very positive meaning: "Jehovah with us". With Jacob, his original name matched his character and his history: Jacob = supplanter. That related specifically to his tricky even underhanded nature in obtaining the birthright and the blessing from the firstborn [Esau], his brother. His new name, Israel [God prevails] was given to him when God had begun to prevail in his life, but he was still deathly afraid of his brother, Esau. God had not yet prevailed as much as He would before the end. To me that has meaning for God also had a hand not only in the events written but in the way the original writers wrote it all down or the way a translator translated. God probably has more messages in the scriptures than any of will be able obtain and understand completely. If, however, we continued to guided by the Holy Spirit, may we not be led to even more than we might have expected?

There are certainly names that I have tried to research but never found an underlying meaning that connected to the history of its owner, but that does not mean that all of them were like that. I do ultimately try to leave the final rendering or understanding given in the hands of God.

Give God the glory!

 

[Grailhunter]

I hear what you are saying and in one sense you certainly could be correct. However with Emmanuel you have a very positive name, "God with us" of an always very positive person whose name in the gospels, Jesus, also has a very positive meaning: "Jehovah with us". With Jacob, his original name matched his character and his history: Jacob = supplanter. That related specifically to his tricky even underhanded nature in obtaining the birthright and the blessing from the firstborn [Esau], his brother. His new name, Israel [God prevails] was given to him when God had begun to prevail in his life, but he was still deathly afraid of his brother, Esau. God had not yet prevailed as much as He would before the end. To me that has meaning for God also had a hand not only in the events written but in the way the original writers wrote it all down or the way a translator translated. God probably has more messages in the scriptures than any of will be able obtain and understand completely. If, however, we continued to guided by the Holy Spirit, may we not be led to even more than we might have expected?

There are certainly names that I have tried to research but never found an underlying meaning that connected to the history of its owner, but that does not mean that all of them were like that. I do ultimately try to leave the final rendering or understanding given in the hands of God.

Give God the glory!

Oh my amadeus, you said a mouthful! Can you imagine the guy writing Jacob's story. Ok, let see, he is the patriarch of the twelve tribes of Israel, so how are we going to word this so that he does not look like a complete dirt bag. His name pretty much was fitting.