If atheists get accused of taking verses out of context, how do we know fundamentalists making those accusations aren’t doing the same as well?

[Lapidem]

A book is composed of natural ingredients except for the ideas and thoughts communicated in organized sentences, paragraphs, with rules of grammar, etc. Where did the ideas come from? An author! They just didn't evolve.
Likewise, life has order and design, it did not just evolve. It must have a Designer.

You're falling into a typical trap here. Man and beings of all kinds can take things of nature and form them into things. I can take a tree, make planks from it and build a shed from it. The shed has design. This doesn't make me God. That you see things of design around you doesn't mean there is a God of the concept peddled by Christianity. It just means there are all manner of designers out there and some of them are likely more advanced than humans. Regardless all those designers are doing is using and manipulating nature. They create nothing for as we know from the Law Of Conservation Of Energy, energy can neither be crated nor destroyed, it can only be changed into different forms of energy.

Chance has no power, no mind to order, change is nothing, ignorant and likely only exists in a game. Nature doesn't have a mind to order things or make choices; yet the TOE leads you to believe that nature has this collective unconscious mind that picks and chooses beneficial mutations over time to build an organism, guide it through an evolitionary process to result in a kind of organism, plant or animal. Absurd!

You're not understanding the various types and processes of evolution. No mutations are picked or chosen. Mutations happen naturally due to the constant chaotic action of nature itself. At any point in time there are numerous forces at play in a given environment. The environment might be dry or wet, cold or hot, heavily irradiated or not. Those forces cause certain forms in nature to perish and others to prosper. Nothing is chosen. It just happens because of the forces in play. After millions of iterations all that is left are the forms that suit that environment. To a gullible person who doesn't understand the process of evolution, the things that remain appear to be perfect creations that surely some magical mythical entity must have created. The reality is very different. There have been thousand/millions of past iterations of things which have all failed and fallen by the wayside resulting in just a few things surviving. It's not choice. It's not design. It's simple evolution. You look at the moon and foolishly think some God must have put it there because it just hangs there at the perfect distance from Earth so it remains in orbit. The reality is that there will have been tons of masses of things at the time the planet was being formed and much of it wasn't going fast enough and fell towards Earth due to gravitational forces and the rest of it was going too fast and was hurled out into space. You're just looking at the end result of billions of years of evolution and development.

So in comparison, to say that life itself and all natural organisms within nature appeared by chance is like saying an explosion in a print shop produced the 30 plus volumes of the Encyclopedia Brittanica.

No it very much isn't. One explosion in a print shop is nothing like billions of years of evolution.

No, nature was created first, then humans were God's crowning achievement. Nature could exist without humans, has existed and has flourished without us for thousands of years.

Humans are just one of billions of life forms that nature has churned out over billions of years. They are by no means any kind of "crowning achievement". The human form is incredibly vulnerable, easily damaged or killed, very prone to illness, decay and decrepitude. Worse still the human condition is an incredibly vulnerable one that means a human pops out of the womb as a blank vessel into which any manner of indoctrination can be put in. You can make a person inherently a "good person" with one type of indoctrination or inherently wicked by another type of indoctrination. You can make people believe in fairies, you can make people believe in self-preservation. The world we live in today is a direct consequence of that awful human condition, that awful vulnerability which other humans exploit mercilessly. Humans are no crowning achievement. They are totally flawed, fickle and vulnerable life forms that like all nature produced life forms before them are destined to become extinct and replaced by more evolved forms.

No, thoughts, ideas, emotions, love, hate and basically our souls and spirits are not part of nature. We were nade in God's image, which means we have a rational mind, emotions, volition, creative abilities far beyond any animal, distinctly separate from the animal kingdom. Animals just function and are designed to do basic things in order to live, eat, produce, in their unique ways. We can train them to do and perform human-like tasks, learn a couple hundred words, but do we find genius apes creating and performing Mozart, talking, readind or building Rockets? lol the smartist of animals may have equivalent intelligence of a one year old child. But a two year old ... emmm ... not likely, but the claim has been made.

Again humans are just a product of billions of years of evolution. As are all animals and life-forms. It is of course entirely possible that other life forms took nature and designed humans just as humans take nature and design things from it. I have no problem with the concept of designers. It's the naïve and silly notion of a singular all-powerful all-loving Christian God that is the problem.

Nope, impossible. Nature could not produce a one -celled animal. If you magnified it a billion times, you would find thousands of factories producing amino acids and proteins with photo-copying devices that duplicate and grow molecular structures, error correcting, DNA deciphering machines that receive information, decode and process that information, organize it to produce these amino acids and proteins, but not life itself. Life is not produced, only created by God. But overall, these components, molecular structive and processes are irreducible and could not have evolved by chance. It is said that the flagellum of a paramecium is more complex than a 747.

Again you don't understand evolution. You're substituting fantasy for rational thought because you can't understand how the universe operates.

Physically yes, not mentally, emotionally or spiritually.
How did Moses, who wrote Genesis by God's inspiration _ word for word _ know we were made from the dust of the earth (dirt of which has 17 elements that we possess)?

Moses is a character in a book. How did Obi-Wan Kenobi gain his abilities? Genesis is a man-made construction that explains the processes of alchemy allegorically. Ironic that most Christians are clueless about this.

 

[Lapidem]

I agree with most of what you said except for the words in bold. I take most of the Bible literally, but can also distinquish from what was intended to be symbolic.

I beg to differ. As just stated, Genesis is describing the processes for creating the Philosopher's Stone, allegorically and cryptically. You can only see and read it if you have the "eyes to see" and "ears to hear" that the Bible talks of. You didn't know about this alchemical aspect of Genesis, hence you can't distinguish the literal from the allegorical imo.

 

[Lapidem]

I think the "end of faith" is coming for everyone. For Christians, they won't need faith in heaven because that which had been unseen (God and heaven and their eternal bodies), will be a reality. For unbelievers, if they do not receive faith sometime in their lives, their fate will be sealed at death, the end of life and everything that was good.

You have no evidence of any of this but it's a free world and if you want to believe in such a terrible type of future and such an incongruent set of beliefs then knock yourself out. The reality is that everything that is you has been here in this universe since its conception. We know this because once again, the Law Of Conservation Of Energy tells us that energy can neither be created nor destroyed. So all the forms of energy that make up your human form have been here for billions of years. Before this form, they must have been another form or just energies roaming about freely in the universe. There is no such thing as death. There is only change from one form to another. It has been thus since the beginning of the universe. The universe has no sense of right and wrong, good or evil. It's just a seething mass of energies constantly transforming from one thing to another. You're a part of that. Whether you like it or not, whether you accept it or not. You're going to carry on indefinitely forever as am I. We will just be in a different form. I'm more than happy for you to spend your time in this current form clinging to fantasies and myths. It makes no difference. You can't change what you are or what's going to happen to all the energy that makes you what and who you are.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

Faith, hope and charity. Nothing about love in there. You just proved my point.

The word for charity is translated as love.

Supernatural? Can you give me any solid evidence of the supernatural? Is there such a thing as super nature? Some kind of greater nature than ordinary nature? I've never seen or witnessed such. Surely what man like to call supernatural is just more ordinary nature that hasn't been seen before or which is not understood.

The missing parts to the equation that physicists can't get are outside the physical realm.Their quantum mechanics theorum, for instance is guesswork. The spontaneous generation of life has them puzzled. They infer that their are as many as 11 dimensions but it is guesswork at best. They can go so far and stop, become perplexed, can't get answers do make stuff up, like Stephen Hawkings who postulated and admitted that such a perfectly fined tuned universe and our earth in the middle could not have happened by a chance big bang and fell into and ordered universe. So he just assumed there must be millions of universes for this one to have existed.

I always point to the development of fetus in the mother's, who is knit together by God. Think of it. What compels the sperm to fertlize the egg and then mitosis to trigger? Cells duplicate themselves then somehow discipher the genetic code and begin to build this fetus. Do cells have little brains, no. Each cell is composed of thousands of factories that produce amino acids and proteins, not just that diplicate themselves but design tdifferent cells that make up the trillions that form organs and systems simultaneously, while even taking features from each parent and combimg them to form a child tha resembles them. Let's face it nature dies not ha e a mind to dispher the genetic code and build and frow a fetus. Again these cells do not possess intellegence, they aren't self governing. God is supernaturally causing this life form to grow gukding it all the way through til birth and beyond.

Pantheism. The universal life energy is in everything. It's the fundamental lego bricks from which everything is made.

Ah, my Mom used to believe in this universal energy force. But neither the universe nor nature has a mind to control order or design itself.

 

[bbyrd009]

There are tons of objective evidence. Again, atheist standard of proof is deliberately set to deny the overwhelming evidence that is there. Let me give an example.

Suppose we are walking in the woods and happen upon a book. Does the objective evidence of the existence of the book imply that a writer (of the book) exists? Or do you insist a book could be a product of nature because we found it in nature?

well...the argument is specious, i think, and i believe in God, ok. You have circumstantial, subjective evidence, and get drawn into trying to "prove" God, which imo goes against an Unpronounceable Name and an empty room for a holy of holies.

Circles are round. Squares have four corners, and equal sides. For these we have "objective evidence."
Trying to make God "exist" is and imo always will be a losing battle

 

[bbyrd009]

We can only expect the unsaved to be divisive, to get us to look at our relatively superficial differences as irreconcilable.

ha well to be fair, Xtians are pretty good about doing that all by themselves, are they not

Our lord did not say to only love those who have 100% doctrinal alignment. So, there is that.

lords are Englyshe loafweardens, and serve kings, and i long for the day when our language comes to align with the Bible
lol

 

[bbyrd009]

What there is, is absolutely tons of evidence that the Christian concept of an all-powerful and all-loving God does not exist

being as how existence implies objective evidence, i am compelled to agree. However, i doubt that that means Yah is any less "real."
We, with all of our finest minds included, Einstein, Bohr, etc, have discovered a bit less than 5% of everything that our maths tell us must "exist," so this should be considered imo

 

[stunnedbygrace]

What makes a fundamentalist think that their interpretation of the Bible is the one and true interpretation? Are they not acting as if they are God themselves when they assume that their interpretation must be infallible? I’ve never once heard a fundamentalist say that they could be reading the Bible wrong, they’re the only ones who hold the correct interpretation and everyone else is taking it out of context-except for them.

And also, how does it make any sense for a believer to say they don’t know what the future holds, but then turn around and say that you will come before God, in the future of course, after you die? I thought they don’t know what the future holds.

Also, how can a believer know anything at all when they say, “Only God knows”? If only God knows, then we cannot know anything at all, not even that God knows. It’s self-defeating.

Whoa……………..
And by the way, do fundamentalists (who I call the indoctrinated) teach THEIR interpretation at all? It’s not their interpretation or doctrines. They just regurgitate what the “talking heads” have said, don’t they? They just carry around and defend the idols of their fathers, who have names like Eternal Torture and Imputed Righteousness.

 

[Wrangler]

I'm afraid that's very false logic. The statement "God is part of the natural" already assumes there is a God. You can't then use that statement to prove that God exists.

It’s not false logic at all. It is you who use the word everything to mean NOT everything.

 

[Wrangler]

Faith, hope and charity. Nothing about love in there. You just proved my point.

Obtuse. What is the first paragraph of the chapter?

Honestly, not sure what word games you are playing.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Obtuse. What is the first paragraph of the chapter?

Honestly, not sure what word games you are playing.

My mind went a completely different way than yours there. My mind scratched its head and said, but…charity IS love…

 

[Wrangler]

The term man-made means something of nature taken by man (who is made by nature) and assembled into some form or other.

You clearly hope to define your way. The question of the objective evidence of a writer existing in the presence of happening on a book in the woods.

 

[Wrangler]

Supernatural? Can you give me any solid evidence of the supernatural?

Sure, you are drowning in it. Can you give me an answer to the existence of the writer?

 

[Wrangler]

IF there exists some kind of God, not the concept of God peddled by Christianity (which is patently ridiculous)

Except for the revelations God revealed and the billions who testify to his existence over the 1,000’s of years.

As I pointed out to @Romanov2488, your basic problem is that you have an argument while others have experience.

 

[Lapidem]

It’s not false logic at all. It is you who use the word everything to mean NOT everything.

It is false logic. That you can't see it exposes your lack of understanding of logic.

 

[Lapidem]

You clearly hope to define your way. The question of the objective evidence of a writer existing in the presence of happening on a book in the woods.

The presence/existence of a writer or designer in no ways supports the Christian fantasy of an all-powerful all-loving God that created everything. I was a computer programmer when I started out working. I designed computer systems. Does that make me God?
Of course not. Humans are flawed, fickle and vulnerable designs. Very obviously not crated by the Christian concept of God but quite possibly created by some other life form in the universe that perhaps went about seeding life on different planets as they had designed it by messing with genetic coding. Occam's Razor applies here.

 

[Lapidem]

Sure, you are drowning in it. Can you give me an answer to the existence of the writer?

Ah so I was right. You can't provide any evidence of the "supernatural".

 

[Wrangler]

It is false logic. That you can't see it exposes your lack of understanding of logic.

LOL. You are the one who is not only using false logic but word games. Does A = A or not?

Does everything include everything or not? If everything is natural then Darth Vader, Santa Claus, God, Easter Bunny, and Rumble Stillskin all exist and are natural.

Many atheists are like you, supposing you can invoke definitions around your Creator.

 

[Lapidem]

Except for the revelations God revealed and the billions who testify to his existence over the 1,000’s of years.

Billions testified to the model of the universe revolving around the Earth. They were wrong, foolish, pious and arrogant. Testaments prove nothing. Many testified to the existence of Sun Gods and Norse Gods and Greek/Roman Gods. They shaped their lives and worlds around those false beliefs. They use them to control humans just as the Church does today.

As I pointed out to @Romanov2488, your basic problem is that you have an argument while others have experience.

Everyone has experiences. What matters is what those experiences actually are. People who don't understand experiences cling to false crutches of supernatural events or magic or religion. Ignorance results in fear, fear result in people inventing beliefs to help them cope with that fear.

 

[Wrangler]

The presence/existence of a writer or designer in no ways supports the Christian fantasy of an all-powerful all-loving God that created everything.

Well, clearly you are hostile to Christianity and extrapolating from the foundation of logical inquiry of the available evidence. My question is binary. Does a book prove the existence of a book writer?

Yes or No.