If you are NonTrinitarian, why are JWs and LDS not considered Christian?

[aspen]

the only reason I see for categorizing them as nonChristian is their incorrect view of the nature of God.

Your thoughts?

 

[ATP]

the only reason I see for categorizing them as nonChristian is their incorrect view of the nature of God.

Your thoughts?

Doesn't matter what name you give yourself, if you're not born again you will not see the kingdom of God [SIZE=12pt]John 3:3 NIV, John 3:7 NIV.[/SIZE]

 

[aspen]

Doesn't matter what name you give yourself, if you're not born again you will not see the kingdom of God John 3:3 NIV, John 3:7 NIV.

I can see what you are saying, but JWs and Mormons claim to be born again.

 

[OzSpen]

the only reason I see for categorizing them as nonChristian is their incorrect view of the nature of God.

Your thoughts?

There are other false doctrines that the JWs teach:

1. They do not believe in the bodily resurrection of Christ. They state, 'So the King Christ Jesus was put to death in the flesh and was resurrected an invisible spirit creature; therefore, the world will see him no more. (1 Peter 3:18; John 14:19)' (Let God Be True, p. 122).

2. Christ's second coming will be as a spirit person: 'Christ Jesus comes, not as a human, but as a glorious spirit creature' (Let God Be True, p. 185).

3. This is their view of hell: 'How can men dig into hell if it is a place of literal fire and brimstone in the bowels of the earth? It is so plain that the Bible hell is the tomb, the grave, that even an honest little child can understand it, but not the religious theologians' (Let God Be True, pp 71-72). They continue about hell, 'And now, who is responsible for this God-dishonoring doctrine? and what is his purpose? The promulgator of it is Satan himself; and his purpose in introducing it has been to frighten the people away from studying the Bible and to make them hate God' (Let God Be True, p. 79).

For these and many other reasons, they are promoting heretical beliefs and cannot be regarded as Christians.

Oz

 

[aspen]

There are other false doctrines that the JWs teach:
1. They do not believe in the bodily resurrection of Christ. They state, 'So the King Christ Jesus was put to death in the flesh and was resurrected an invisible spirit creature; therefore, the world will see him no more. (1 Peter 3:18; John 14:19)' (Let God Be True, p. 122).
2. Christ's second coming will be as a spirit person: 'Christ Jesus comes, not as a human, but as a glorious spirit creature' (Let God Be True, p. 185).
3. This is their view of hell: 'How can men dig into hell if it is a place of literal fire and brimstone in the bowels of the earth? It is so plain that the Bible hell is the tomb, the grave, that even an honest little child can understand it, but not the religious theologians' (Let God Be True, pp 71-72). They continue about hell, 'And now, who is responsible for this God-dishonoring doctrine? and what is his purpose? The promulgator of it is Satan himself; and his purpose in introducing it has been to frighten the people away from studying the Bible and to make them hate God' (Let God Be True, p. 79).

For these and many other reasons, they are promoting heretical beliefs and cannot be regarded as Christians.

Oz

I understand your point - and I agree they are certainly false teachings. I think the first two points you made are nature of God heresies, which would be corrected with the doctrine of the Trinity.

I think your third point about Hell is equally false, but I do not think it disqualifies JWs from Christianity - SDAs also believe this doctrine, and they are usually included in the Christian fold.

 

[ATP]

I can see what you are saying, but JWs and Mormons claim to be born again.

Well, they be wrong. False prophets.

 

[aspen]

Well, they be wrong. False prophets.

What does born again mean to you?

By the way, I agree with you about preaching incorrect doctrine

 

[ATP]

What does born again mean to you?

It means to be born from above. When we accept Christ as Savior we are born again, and we are new creatures in Christ Rom 10:9, 2 Cor 5:17 NIV.

 

[OzSpen]

I understand your point - and I agree they are certainly false teachings. I think the first two points you made are nature of God heresies, which would be corrected with the doctrine of the Trinity.

I think your third point about Hell is equally false, but I do not think it disqualifies JWs from Christianity - SDAs also believe this doctrine, and they are usually included in the Christian fold.

The nature of Christ's resurrection and the nature of his second coming are not connected to the meaning of the doctrine of the Trinity. The doctrine of the Trinity deals with God's being plurality within unity, i.e. there is only one God (unity) but there is a plurality of persons (Father, Son and Holy Spirit) in that unity. In his Systematic Theology, vol 2 (BethanyHouse 2003), Norman Geisler summarises the biblical teachings as:

(1) 'There is one and only one God.
(2) There are three distinct persons who are God: The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit' (Geisler 2003:279).

Therefore, technically one could believe in the Trinity and still deny the bodily resurrection and physical return of Jesus. The latter 2 teachings are based on an exegesis of Scripture. Thus, these 2 teachings are not involved in describing the attributes of God (the nature of God).

 

[aspen]

The nature of Christ's resurrection and the nature of his second coming are not connected to the meaning of the doctrine of the Trinity. The doctrine of the Trinity deals with God's being plurality within unity, i.e. there is only one God (unity) but there is a plurality of persons (Father, Son and Holy Spirit) in that unity. In his Systematic Theology, vol 2 (BethanyHouse 2003), Norman Geisler summarises the biblical teachings as:


(1) 'There is one and only one God.
(2) There are three distinct persons who are God: The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit' (Geisler 2003:279).

Therefore, technically one could believe in the Trinity and still deny the bodily resurrection and physical return of Jesus. The latter 2 teachings are based on an exegesis of Scripture. Thus, these 2 teachings are not involved in describing the attributes of God (the nature of God).

The Doctrine of the Incarnation covers that. I would agree that both doctrines are critical to determining orthodoxy.

 

[OzSpen]

The Doctrine of the Incarnation covers that. I would agree that both doctrines are critical to determining orthodoxy.

What does the Doctrine of the Incarnation cover? I'm missing your point. Would you please explain further.

 

[aspen]

What does the Doctrine of the Incarnation cover? I'm missing your point. Would you please explain further.

The doctrine of the Incarnation explains the role of Jesus and his purpose for coming to earth to save us

 

[OzSpen]

The doctrine of the Incarnation explains the role of Jesus and his purpose for coming to earth to save us

And that does not deal with the nature of Christ's resurrection and the nature of his second coming. That's the point I'm making. That is not included in the doctrine of the Incarnation.

 

[JimParker]

While both the JWs and LDS have "non-Christian" views of God, their views are very different.

The JWs believe in an eternal diety, God the father. They declare the Son to be a created being. (A modern variation of the Neo-Platonist teaching of Arius of Alexandria) and the Spirit to be some kind of "power" rather than any kind of being.

The Mormons have a more pagan view of deity. They believe in a multitude of gods who were once men and who became gods by their good works. They also believe that God the Father is the father (sire) of the Son and the holy spirit and the spirits of every human being on earth. The spirits of men are the offspring of "god the father" and his harem of wives.

Joseph Smith taught that Jesus was conceived when god the father came down to earth and had sexual intercourse with the virgin called Mary. (They will deny that that is official Mormon/LDS doctrine even though Smith taught it.)

Both organizations modify their "doctrines" as is expedient and use the excuse that they have received "new light" in the ever-changing revelation of God.

 

[ewq1938]

There are other false doctrines that the JWs teach:

1. They do not believe in the bodily resurrection of Christ. They state, 'So the King Christ Jesus was put to death in the flesh and was resurrected an invisible spirit creature; therefore, the world will see him no more. (1 Peter 3:18; John 14:19)' (Let God Be True, p. 122).

I'd want to ask them more questions about the human body of Christ and what happened to fully be able to decide on this one. At first glance it does appear to deny a bodily resurrection but it's a short quote and I'd like to have read it in full context.

2. Christ's second coming will be as a spirit person: 'Christ Jesus comes, not as a human, but as a glorious spirit creature' (Let God Be True, p. 185).

As long as they believe he returns in the new, spiritual, glorified body then this is accurate just not worded as well as it could be.

3. This is their view of hell: 'How can men dig into hell if it is a place of literal fire and brimstone in the bowels of the earth? It is so plain that the Bible hell is the tomb, the grave, that even an honest little child can understand it, but not the religious theologians' (Let God Be True, pp 71-72). They continue about hell, 'And now, who is responsible for this God-dishonoring doctrine? and what is his purpose? The promulgator of it is Satan himself; and his purpose in introducing it has been to frighten the people away from studying the Bible and to make them hate God' (Let God Be True, p. 79).

Whether they understand hell or not doesn't affect whether they follow Christ of not. There are three different places called "hell". I assume they are speaking of the lake of fire hell here. While it is true it isn't a literal lake full of actual fire, they are wrong that it really is just the grave. The grave is a separate place called "hell" but the final destination "lake of fire" is a "place" where the unsaved will be sent. I personally believe it is simply a metaphor for God's ability to uncreate something he has created. "God is a consuming fire".

 

[heretoeternity]

Born again? John 3...Jesus taught that you must be born again, of spirit! Pray for God's Holy spirit to dwell in you and guide you!
Why do you want to categorize anyone as "christian" "nonchristian"..if you want to run through all the `so called christian denominations and categorize them it will take a long time, and it would be like picking the fly specks out of the pepper, while wearing boxing gloves....
The main question is Do they follow the words of Jesus and love Him, and keep His commandments John 14 (15), are they born again, as per above, do they love God with all their heart, soul and mind, and do they love their neighbours as themselves....

 

[Joyful]

Jesus is the Judge of who are born again or saved, not anyone else, everyone.

JWs and Mormons are claiming Jesus' name.

And I know JWs are striving to be faithful to Jesus' teachings. Their fruit is godly in over all. I am not JW but I have attended their congregation and studied with them. I know them pretty well.

Jesus says we know them by their fruit.

Jesus does not approve of lip service.

 

[ewq1938]

Jesus is the Judge of who are born again or saved, not anyone else, everyone.

Can you clarify that?

 

[Joyful]

Can you clarify that?

Are you questioning Jesus' authority?

Jesus is the Lord.

 

[ewq1938]

Are you questioning Jesus' authority?

No, I asked you to clarify what you meant.


Jesus is the Judge of who are born again or saved, not anyone else, everyone.

There is a contradiction here, see the bolded part.