Illumination

[Wormwood]

Some doctrines just seem to be assumed. There is no real biblical support for them, but they continue to be perpetuated regardless of their lack of Scriptural backing. I believe the doctrine of illumination falls into this category. Let me briefly explain this doctrine and then give some reasons why I believe this doctrine to be dangerous and unscriptural. Unless viable support can be given to this doctrine, I think it would be wise for us as Christians to stop claiming it as a basis for our beliefs. Perhaps then we can all develop a more humble and gracious attitude when debating our views and doctrines.

Defining Illumination
Illumination is the belief that the Holy Spirit enables Christians to come to a correct understanding of the Bible. It seems that nearly every Christian believes this. It is seen on this site daily where people argue that they have the correct doctrine because the Holy Spirit reveals it to them or because He informs their understanding of certain passages. While I agree that the Holy Spirit does work in the believer when they study and live out the Scriptures, I strongly disagree that the Spirit gives believers a correct understanding of the Bible. This view is derived from a Calvinist perspective of total depravity that suggests that the Spirit has to quicken the mind of the unbeliever and guide them in all truth as an unilateral act. Thus, darkened sinners are acted upon and the Spirit enlightens them, gives understanding, teaches, opens eyes so they will perceive the truth of God. Without this act, man is blind to truth, but with this act, man is illuminated and knows the truth that comes from God.

Most are probably nodding their head to this previous paragraph. Some are even thinking of verses that support this idea. We can discuss those verses as they are brought up. In my estimation, there are a number of faults with this view.

1. If illumination is true, inspiration is meaningless. Scripture is inspired. It is important to understand that if the doctrine of illumination is true, then inspiration is meaningless. Why would the Holy Spirit inspire the Bible and protect its truth if that truth can only be transmitted via divine implanting through a means other than the text itself? Over and over again Scripture indicates that its inspired words can be understood by believers and non-believers alike and are inspired in a way that the words themselves can produce life. John writes, "These things have been written that you might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you might have life in his name." Thus, John is assuming that these words he has written contain the ability in their message to bring someone to faith so that a person might find life. If illumination were true, it would be the unilateral act of the illuminating Spirit that gives life and truth. John suggests his words contain truth and life and that an unbeliever can read them and believe (or disbelieve). As one author put it, "If man cannot understand the written word, then God's revelation and inspiration have failed."

2. If illumination is true, studying the Bible is pointless. The Bible clearly instructs us to meditate on the Word and study to show ourselves approved so we can divide it correctly. However, this instruction is meaningless if illumination is true. If God is injecting truth in us via illumination, then what is the point of studying? Each Christian should just be able to grab his or her Bible and glance at a verse and receive a Spiritual insight with no need for study, knowledge of historical backgrounds, contexts, author's intent, word studies or anything else. All study is meaningless if illumination is true.

3. If illumination is true, then there would be no disagreement among believers. If the Spirit is providing each believer illumination for a correct understanding of the Bible, then why do Christians disagree? Well, there can only be two options. One, only a small number of Christians actually have the Spirit (and they agree on all doctrines...so its a VERY small number!). Certainly the Spirit would not mislead anyone or send mixed messages. The other option is that the Spirit is sending conflicting messages and God himself is the source of Christian division. Certainly not! I choose to argue that the doctrine of illumination is false. I think this is the case not only because there are clearly very strong believers that disagree on doctrines, but the Apostle Paul even wrote about how believers should respond when in disagreement on various beliefs. Why would Paul give such instruction if the Spirit is guiding people into a universal truth on matters of Scripture?

4. If illumination is true, then believers would never change their minds on their views of Scripture. I believe it is clear that the Bible teaches that Christians will grow and mature. As they mature they will change their views on various doctrines and perspectives on Scripture. This is unacceptable when someone holds to the doctrine of illumination. Which view was the illumined view? Everyone who believes in this doctrine claims they are being illumined in their understanding of the Bible. However, when someone changes their mind on a passage, they quickly claim that the Spirit opened their eyes to the verses! So does this mean they weren't illumined before? You see the difficulty...everyone is illumined by the Spirit unless they change their mind...then its the Spirit doing the changing. Very convenient, but not very theologically sound.

5. If illumination is true, then teachers are pointless. It is clear that God gives the Spirit to empower some to teach. Well, if the Spirit is the one providing inner illumination so a person can have a correct understanding of the Bible, then there is no need for pastors, teachers, preachers, or anything else. Listening to a teacher would be a lack of faith in God's teaching via the illumination of the Spirit within. Some argue that the passage in 1 John testifies to that fact that these believers do no not need anyone to teach them. Understanding this verse contextually reveals that this has nothing to do with inner illumination of Bible verses. Clearly we need teachers or God would not give the gift of teaching!

I would contend that the Holy Spirit is active in helping the believer. However, this activity is not in ensuring a correct understanding of the Bible. I believe He inspired the Bible so it could be understood and that God has the ability to communicate with man through the written word without additional injections of illumination. The Spirit works to assist the believers will. The word is plain and can be understood by those who study and show themselves approved. This is why the Bible is inspired...so anyone can understand it. The Spirit works to soften and change the will so people will not merely "know" the truth, but to respond to and apply the truth in their daily lives. Thus, believers on this site need to stop arguing that God has "revealed" the truth of a passage to them and those who disagree do not listen to the Spirit. The Spirit is not speaking to interpret the words he already spoke in the Bible. No, the Spirit speaks to us to help us remember and live out those words in our daily thoughts, words and actions. The Spirit's work is inspiration and sanctification...not illumination!

 

[Niki]

Hoo boy. OK I'll bite. ;)

I believe illumination to be biblical, it is personal revelation or interpretation or new revelation that I find extra biblical.

Let's define: I disagree with your def of illumination, so let's get the dictionary one.

Illumination:1.

a. The act of illuminating.
b. The state of being illuminated.

2. A source of light.
3. Decorative lighting.
4. Spiritual or intellectual enlightenment.
5. Clarification; elucidation.
6.
a. The art or act of decorating a text, page, or initial letter with ornamental designs, miniatures, or lettering.
b. An example of this art.

7. Physics The luminous flux per unit area at any point on a surface exposed to incident light. Also called illuminance.

Irregardless of how the word is used, it always mean to shed light or refers to light in some way...from a being illumined (lit up) to being a source of light (radiating)
enlightenment (the aha moment) to physics wherein the description still regards light. The inference is always light whether as being the recipient, or the source to
the recipient.

I strongly disagree that the Spirit gives believers a correct understanding of the Bible.

Let's take a look at what the Bible states regarding the Holy Spirit. I am asking myself, what does the Holy Spirit do then, if He does not shed light on the Bible?
Why do we have the Holy Spirit if we just use our brains? (forgive me, but I get the impression you are suggesting we do that only as opposed to depending on
the supernatural working of God's Spirit in our lives. I think we need to take a balanced look at things rather than think anything spiritual must be tainted by the
nature of fallen mankind and therefore to be shunned as we look with our material eyes upon the wreck of Christianity with reference to its schisms, excesses,
failures and other woes.



50 Things the Holy Spirit Does



1. He convicts the world of sin, righteousness, and judgment (John 16:8).
2. He guides us into all truth (John 16:13).
3. He regenerates us (John 3:5-8; Titus 3:5).
4. He glorifies and testifies of Christ (John 15:26; 16:14).
5. He reveals Christ to us and in us (John 16:14-15).
6. He leads us (Rom. 8:14; Gal. 5:18; Matt. 4:1; Luke 4:1).
7. He sanctifies us (2 Thess. 2:13; 1 Pet. 1:2; Rom. 5:16).
8. He empowers us (Luke 4:14; 24:49; Rom. 15:19; Acts 1:8).
9. He fills us (Eph. 5:18; Acts 2:4; 4:8, 31; 9:17).
10. He teaches us to pray (Rom. 8:26-27; Jude 1:20).
11. He bears witness in us that we are children of God (Rom. 8:16).
12. He produces in us the fruit or evidence of His work and presence (Gal. 5:22-23).
13. He distributes spiritual gifts and manifestations (the outshining) of His presence to and through the body (1 Cor. 12:4, 8-10; Heb. 2:4).
14. He anoints us for ministry (Luke 4:18; Acts 10:38).
15. He washes and renews us (Titus 3:5).
16. He brings unity and oneness to the body (Eph. 4:3; 2:14-18). Here He plays the same role that He plays in the Godhead. The Spirit is the life that unites Father and Son. He plays the same role in the church. When He is operating in a group of people, He unites them in love. Therefore, a sure evidence of the Holy Spirit working in a group is Love and Unity. Not signs and wonders (those are seasonal and can be counterfeited).
17. He is our guarantee and deposit of the future resurrection (2 Cor. 1:22; 2 Cor. 5:5).
18. He seals us unto the day of redemption (Eph. 1:13; 4:30).
19. He sets us free from the law of sin and death (Rom. 8:2).
20. He quickens our mortal bodies (Rom. 8:11).
21. He reveals the deep things of God to us (1 Cor. 2:10).
22. He reveals what has been given to us from God (1 Cor. 2:12).
23. He dwells in us (Rom. 8:9; 1 Cor. 3:16; 2 Tim. 1:14; John 14:17).
24. He speaks to, in, and through us (1 Cor. 12:3; 1 Tim. 4:1; Rev. 2:11; Heb 3:7; Matt. 10:20; Acts 2:4; 8:29; 10:19; 11:12, 28; 13:2; 16:6,7; 21:4,11).
25. He is the agent by which we are baptized into the body of Christ (1 Cor. 12:13).
26. He brings liberty (2 Cor. 3:17).
27. He transforms us into the image of Christ (2 Cor. 3:18).
28. He cries in our hearts, “Abba, Father” (Gal. 4:6).
29. He enables us to wait (Gal. 5:5).
30. He supplies us with Christ (Phil. 1:19, KJV).
31. He grants everlasting life (Gal. 6:8).
32. He gives us access to God the Father (Eph. 2:18).
33. He makes us (corporately) God’s habitation (Eph. 2:22).
34. He reveals the mystery of God to us (Eph. 3:5).
35. He strengthens our spirits (Eph. 3:16).
36. He enables us to obey the truth (1 Pet. 1:22).
37. He enables us to know that Jesus abides in us (1 John 3:24; 4:13).
38. He confesses that Jesus came in the flesh (1 John 4:2).
39. He says “Come, Lord Jesus” along with the bride (Rev. 22:17).
40. He dispenses God’s love into our hearts (Rom. 5:5).
41. He bears witness to the truth in our conscience (Rom. 9:1).
42. He teaches us (1 Cor. 2:13; John 14:26).
43. He gives us joy (1 Thess. 1:6).
44. He enables some to preach the gospel (1 Pet. 1:12).
45. He moves us (2 Pet. 1:21).
46. He knows the things of God (1 Cor. 2:11).
47. He casts out demons (Matt. 12:28).
48. He brings things to our remembrance (John 14:26).
49. He comforts us (Acts 9:31).
50. He makes some overseers in the church and sends some out to the work of church planting [through the body] (Acts 20:28; 13:2).








It seems that without the Holy Spirit, we really don't have much going on. If you pay attention to item 16, you will note that signs and wonders are NOT proof
of anything and I agree strongly with that. I will also make mention, that those who take such as their proof of validity, are most likely in error and quick to
judge anyone outside of their own specialized group and quick to call others 'dead' or unloving.

I'll go over you points, but this is already pretty long with the scripture verses.

 

[Wormwood]

Hey Niki,

Thanks for the response. First, I don't mean "illumination" in the basic sense of providing light. I mean the doctrine of illumination which I tried to spell out. This is a doctrine about how someone comes to a knowledge of biblical truth...through divine illumination.

Let's look at the verses you pointed out that you feel teach this doctrine...ill just talk about the texts you put in bold.

2. He guides us in all truth. This appears to be a declaration from Jesus to his Apostles regarding their ministry and ability to convey Christ's teaching to the world. I don't think this is a promise to every believer as Jesus has not audibly spoken to every believer or appeared visibly to every believer (John 16:4; 16:16).

5. See previous point in the same text.

6. He leads us. I agree. How does he lead us? By giving us correct interpretation of his word by illumination? These verses do not say that.

10. He teaches us to pray. Okay I agree. This still says nothing of Bible interpretation or insight.

13. He gives gifts. I agree. But there is no gift of "illumination of God's Word" that I am aware of.

21. He reveals the deep things of God. Who received revelation from God about the "deep things?" Look at the context (Cf. 1 Cor. 4:1).

22. Again, who is the "us" in this passage? Paul is talking about the Apostles here. Paul distinguishes between the Apostles who are teaching the mysteries of God in Christ and these believers who are carnal. Paul says "we" (Apostles) have been entrusted with wisdom from God while "you" (the Corinthians) are carnal and dividing over which person you will follow (Paul, Barnabus, Apollos, etc).

42. See the previous points.

So the two main texts you are using with regards to the Spirit giving illuminating wisdom on God's word is John 14 and 1 Cor. 2. I do not think that is what these passages teach. One speaks to how Jesus will use his Apostles to establish his church and the other speaks of the mysteries God has given to the Apostles to proclaim to the church. I agree that the Spirit is powerfully at work in us in many ways. I just don't think one of those ways is to enable us to correctly interpret Scripture. I think he inspired Scripture so that it was created in a way that we could understand it through reading and study without additional supernatural aid.

 

[Niki]

Hey W...You have so much in yr post, I wanted to introduce a different aspect and then keep going. I agree a discussion on this is very important and much needed so I'm glad to participate.

First, I have never heard 'illumination' described as a doctrine? What I have had heard or rather read in this and other forums, is the use of the word 'revelation' as pertains to
personal revelation imparted to the individual either 1) APART from scripture or 2) a new understanding of what we all thought we knew (well those who do)

So, I am actually comfortable with illumination but not personal interpretation...I think the Bible is more than clear that it is not up for personal interpretation and that we are to hold
fast to that which was revealed once and for all. So then, brothers and sisters, stand firm and hold fast to the teachings we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter.
II Thess. 2:15 (just one verse for an example)

and then we have Be on your guard; stand firm in the faith; be courageous; be strong. I Cor 16:13...when I read and or study a verse like that (with other passages) I do not get the
impression that we can just willy nilly skip through the Bible and change what we have refined, stood upon, lived upon and called doctrine. YET, personal revelation seems to
be very vogue and no opportunity missed, in some circles, to declare : "God told me this or God told me that..." I think that would basically make everyone a prophet?

I would like to state for the record, that I believe in the gifts of the Spirit and I believe that they are apart from our own natural gifts and abilities. I understand that many do not
so believe and that is not a discussion necessarily for this thread and not to take it off topic, but, like I stated, just for the record cause I am relatively new here so just to clarify.

Umm..I think we might be discussing at cross purposes with using the word illumination...as I think that is valid, but not if it is used to mean revelation or new revelation

I'll address yr response to me. However, please understand I am not defending what you are calling a doctrine. I am trying to 'illumine' the biblical response to your post
with scripture to show the validity of the Holy Spirit's part in our understanding of scripture BUT as pertains to that which, also according to scripture, we hold fast, do not
change and recognize as THE truth that was delivered to us once and for all.

OK, so hopefully keeping in mind I am with you regarding altering the truth, here goes:

2. I disagree Jesus was speaking only to the Apostles as the Holy Spirit had not yet descended and the Holy Spirit is definitely promised to ALL believers .

6. He leads us into ALL truth...the truth we already have...not some new truth

21. uh huh...right...but are there no more teachers? The teachers who taught then, were teaching what the teachers who teach now should teach. Same applies to 22 I guess

Anyway, I'd still like to remark on your original points, but no time right now.

Thanks :)

Just added this:

I was reading something (not related to this site) and thought I would post it here because it reflects what I said. The links in the para below actually relate to experiences
I am not saying that no one ever has a true experience, but most of what passes for the real thing these days, is not real. I'm convinced that the dependency of
some for having God PROVE his existence by asking for signs etc, has actually led many into great error and deception.

Personal revelation...everybody and their brother is a prophet these days. Have you noticed? Seems like everyone has had Jesus show up in their living room, their bathroom, their potato. Seems like some special ones get a free tour of heaven or a lengthy visit with grandpa up there. This is because as the emergent church asked and asked and asked what truth is, actually chipping away at it as they asked, we began to substitute direct revelation and personal experience for truth. If the bible isn't thoroughly true, then I'll just accept these experiences, tongues, visions, and voices as truth. After all, it happened to me, and I know it's true.

 

[Wormwood]

Hey Nikki,

Thanks for the clarification. I appreciate your responses. Yes, there may be some crossed wires here. I am speaking about a specific doctrine that you can read more about here. I also agree that the truth was passed down once for all. The doctrine of illumination is not the same as a new personal "revelation." It is not about receiving a new truth. Rather it is about divine power to grasp and interpret God's word. For instance, you and I have a disagreement about the meaning of John 14 and the claims of Jesus there. Some believe that the role of the Holy Spirit is to empower us to see the true meaning of John 14. Many times on this board people will say that "the Spirit showed me the meaning of this verse" or claim that their understanding is based on the Spirits guidance. I do no think this is how the Spirit functions.

As far as your responses go:

2/3. Yes I agree the Spirit had not been given yet. However, Jesus is giving a specific promise to the disciples concerning what the Spirit would do for them. I do not think this is a promise for every believer. For instance, Jesus told his disciples in Acts 1 to wait in Jerusalem until you receive power from on high. I think the context of this shows this is a specific promise for a specific group of people. We are not all to run to Jerusalem when we read this verse and wait for power from on high.

22/23. Paul was an Apostle, not a teacher. Paul was not passing information along that he received from another human. He was revealing the mysteries of God in Christ that had been hidden in previous ages. So these "secrets" and "mysteries" and "deep things" are made plain in Paul's Gospel that we have preserved. In my opinion, this is not about secret inner discussions and feelings the Holy Spirit brings on every believer, but is dealing specifically with the message of the Apostles being proclaimed to the world. The message of wisdom was revealed to these Apostles by the Spirit...and we as Christians receive and accept their teaching. This "revelation" does not take place for every Christian. It was revealed..and now it is taught. So these verses are not about inner illumination, but the secrets of the Gospel being disclosed by the Apostles. I hope this makes sense. :)

PS. You forgot the Virgin Mary appearing on a sandwich!

 

[Angelina]

Ahha! A great topic for discussion :) I will come back to you on this also but have pressing work responsibilities to deal with.
Catch you later!

BB

 

[JB_Reformed Baptist]

Some doctrines just seem to be assumed. There is no real biblical support for them, but they continue to be perpetuated regardless of their lack of Scriptural backing. I believe the doctrine of illumination falls into this category. Let me briefly explain this doctrine and then give some reasons why I believe this doctrine to be dangerous and unscriptural. Unless viable support can be given to this doctrine, I think it would be wise for us as Christians to stop claiming it as a basis for our beliefs. Perhaps then we can all develop a more humble and gracious attitude when debating our views and doctrines.

Defining Illumination
Illumination is the belief that the Holy Spirit enables Christians to come to a correct understanding of the Bible. It seems that nearly every Christian believes this. It is seen on this site daily where people argue that they have the correct doctrine because the Holy Spirit reveals it to them or because He informs their understanding of certain passages. While I agree that the Holy Spirit does work in the believer when they study and live out the Scriptures, I strongly disagree that the Spirit gives believers a correct understanding of the Bible. This view is derived from a Calvinist perspective of total depravity that suggests that the Spirit has to quicken the mind of the unbeliever and guide them in all truth as an unilateral act. Thus, darkened sinners are acted upon and the Spirit enlightens them, gives understanding, teaches, opens eyes so they will perceive the truth of God. Without this act, man is blind to truth, but with this act, man is illuminated and knows the truth that comes from God.

Most are probably nodding their head to this previous paragraph. Some are even thinking of verses that support this idea. We can discuss those verses as they are brought up. In my estimation, there are a number of faults with this view.

1. If illumination is true, inspiration is meaningless. Scripture is inspired. It is important to understand that if the doctrine of illumination is true, then inspiration is meaningless. Why would the Holy Spirit inspire the Bible and protect its truth if that truth can only be transmitted via divine implanting through a means other than the text itself? Over and over again Scripture indicates that its inspired words can be understood by believers and non-believers alike and are inspired in a way that the words themselves can produce life. John writes, "These things have been written that you might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you might have life in his name." Thus, John is assuming that these words he has written contain the ability in their message to bring someone to faith so that a person might find life. If illumination were true, it would be the unilateral act of the illuminating Spirit that gives life and truth. John suggests his words contain truth and life and that an unbeliever can read them and believe (or disbelieve). As one author put it, "If man cannot understand the written word, then God's revelation and inspiration have failed."

2. If illumination is true, studying the Bible is pointless. The Bible clearly instructs us to meditate on the Word and study to show ourselves approved so we can divide it correctly. However, this instruction is meaningless if illumination is true. If God is injecting truth in us via illumination, then what is the point of studying? Each Christian should just be able to grab his or her Bible and glance at a verse and receive a Spiritual insight with no need for study, knowledge of historical backgrounds, contexts, author's intent, word studies or anything else. All study is meaningless if illumination is true.

3. If illumination is true, then there would be no disagreement among believers. If the Spirit is providing each believer illumination for a correct understanding of the Bible, then why do Christians disagree? Well, there can only be two options. One, only a small number of Christians actually have the Spirit (and they agree on all doctrines...so its a VERY small number!). Certainly the Spirit would not mislead anyone or send mixed messages. The other option is that the Spirit is sending conflicting messages and God himself is the source of Christian division. Certainly not! I choose to argue that the doctrine of illumination is false. I think this is the case not only because there are clearly very strong believers that disagree on doctrines, but the Apostle Paul even wrote about how believers should respond when in disagreement on various beliefs. Why would Paul give such instruction if the Spirit is guiding people into a universal truth on matters of Scripture?

4. If illumination is true, then believers would never change their minds on their views of Scripture. I believe it is clear that the Bible teaches that Christians will grow and mature. As they mature they will change their views on various doctrines and perspectives on Scripture. This is unacceptable when someone holds to the doctrine of illumination. Which view was the illumined view? Everyone who believes in this doctrine claims they are being illumined in their understanding of the Bible. However, when someone changes their mind on a passage, they quickly claim that the Spirit opened their eyes to the verses! So does this mean they weren't illumined before? You see the difficulty...everyone is illumined by the Spirit unless they change their mind...then its the Spirit doing the changing. Very convenient, but not very theologically sound.

5. If illumination is true, then teachers are pointless. It is clear that God gives the Spirit to empower some to teach. Well, if the Spirit is the one providing inner illumination so a person can have a correct understanding of the Bible, then there is no need for pastors, teachers, preachers, or anything else. Listening to a teacher would be a lack of faith in God's teaching via the illumination of the Spirit within. Some argue that the passage in 1 John testifies to that fact that these believers do no not need anyone to teach them. Understanding this verse contextually reveals that this has nothing to do with inner illumination of Bible verses. Clearly we need teachers or God would not give the gift of teaching!

I would contend that the Holy Spirit is active in helping the believer. However, this activity is not in ensuring a correct understanding of the Bible. I believe He inspired the Bible so it could be understood and that God has the ability to communicate with man through the written word without additional injections of illumination. The Spirit works to assist the believers will. The word is plain and can be understood by those who study and show themselves approved. This is why the Bible is inspired...so anyone can understand it. The Spirit works to soften and change the will so people will not merely "know" the truth, but to respond to and apply the truth in their daily lives. Thus, believers on this site need to stop arguing that God has "revealed" the truth of a passage to them and those who disagree do not listen to the Spirit. The Spirit is not speaking to interpret the words he already spoke in the Bible. No, the Spirit speaks to us to help us remember and live out those words in our daily thoughts, words and actions. The Spirit's work is inspiration and sanctification...not illumination!

So, only the intelligent can understand and know the scriptures for sure? Again I wonder what you mean by "inspired". I think the definition of ILLUMINATION by most outspoken individuals is incorrect.

However, there is a work of the spirit that does consist in illumination and such a scripture that points to it is: Ephesians 1:18 & 1 Corinthians 2:12-15

For the sake of definition on illumination : To render evident;make to see; ensure the reality of the thing; vivify etc.

leave it there for now. :)

 

[Episkopos]

Christianity is not absorb-able by the human mind. It is based on the revelation of Christ to an individual. Spiritual discernment is required to understand the scriptures but this comes in fits and starts...not all at once. The purpose is not to fill the mind...but to give a timely instruction and sustain our faith.

 

[Wormwood]

JB,

Thanks for the response. I would not say that only the intelligent can understand the Scriptures. I do believe that God helps us in understanding His Word. This does not mean he will supernaturally inject truth in us as the doctrine of illumination suggests. However, I believe God can sharpen us mentally so we have clarity of thought. I believe God can give us wisdom so that we can appropriately apply what we are learning. I believe God can providentially put teachers in our path who can help us to understand something with which we are wrestling. And most importantly, I believe God can give us the desire to want to know and live his Word. This desire is perhaps the greatest obstacle in really understanding the Word of God.

I think you would agree that the Bible, for the most part is not complicated. This is especially true when we approach it humbly and are willing to learn and discern things from others. I have already commented on the 1 Cor. 2 passages with Nikki. I think the Ephesians passage has to do with a prayer that is aimed at seeking provision for the means to achieve knowledge through their personal study and searching into the things of Christ. This is not about directly feeding knowledge into their minds.

Also JB, I am not debating the concept of illumination as a word, but as a doctrine. This is a specific doctrine with a specific teaching. Heres some quotes to help out...

The Reformers, and particularly John Calvin, stressed the way the objective, written Word and the inner, supernatural ministry of the Holy Spirit work together, the Holy Spirit illuminating the Word to God's people. The Word without the illumination of the Holy Spirit remains a closed book." - James M Boice

It is "not a giving of new revelation, but a work within us that enables us to grasp and to love the revelation that is there before us in the biblical text as heard and read, and as explained by teachers and writers."^[1]^

“[T]he illumination of the Holy Spirit. . . is vouchsafed to every believer. . . [which will] enable us to understand the revelation God has already made of Himself, especially that revelation of Him in the Scriptures” (Lectures in Systematic Theology, Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1949, p. 45).

Episkopos,

I disagree. I think the Scriptures have a continual refrain of the importance of reshaping our minds by meditating and filling them with God's Word. I never read of a "personal revelation" to a person via the Spirit to convert them (except perhaps the Apostle Paul) or to help them know what the Scriptures really mean. People do not recieve personal revelations by divine illumination when it comes to understandingin order to understand the Bible. Rather, they are confronted with the power of God's Word by the inspired Scriptures which is sufficient to accomplish its work. The Word of God is powerful and creates life in those who believe. It is not necessary for the Spirit to illuminate a person before the Word can accomplish its task. In my estimation, this greatly diminishes the power of the Word of God.

 

[JB_Reformed Baptist]

JB,

Thanks for the response. I would not say that only the intelligent can understand the Scriptures. I do believe that God helps us in understanding His Word. This does not mean he will supernaturally inject truth in us as the doctrine of illumination suggests. However, I believe God can sharpen us mentally so we have clarity of thought. I believe God can give us wisdom so that we can appropriately apply what we are learning. I believe God can providentially put teachers in our path who can help us to understand something with which we are wrestling. And most importantly, I believe God can give us the desire to want to know and live his Word. This desire is perhaps the greatest obstacle in really understanding the Word of God.

I think you would agree that the Bible, for the most part is not complicated. This is especially true when we approach it humbly and are willing to learn and discern things from others. I have already commented on the 1 Cor. 2 passages with Nikki. I think the Ephesians passage has to do with a prayer that is aimed at seeking provision for the means to achieve knowledge through their personal study and searching into the things of Christ. This is not about directly feeding knowledge into their minds.

Also JB, I am not debating the concept of illumination as a word, but as a doctrine. This is a specific doctrine with a specific teaching. Heres some quotes to help out...

Thanks brother, I would agree. Thanks for the quotes. :)

 

[Niki]

Going to go back and respond to yr original op since you took alot of care to write all that....I did go looking for doctrine of illumination...and I have decided that rather
than something that the Bible would suggest as a doctrine...like salvation for example, I think this one, illumination is suggestive throughout scripture BUT in the context
of what I wrote yesterday...you know, one truth etc and not personal interpretation.

Funny I never realized or heard of illumination being called a doctrine before...how did miss that one? ;) OK...underlined parts are quotes from yr points

1.It is important to understand that if the doctrine of illumination is true, then inspiration is meaningless. IMO, there is too big a line drawn here....I definitely do not agree
with those who would state truth can only be transmitted via divine implanting through a means other than the text itself , however I do not think there is a discrepancy in
stating that the Holy Spirit can absolutely quicken or make alive to you, any text or even verse. I've had that happen a good many times without deviating from the truth
already learned or indicated.

2.If illumination is true, studying the Bible is pointless. Yes, we should meditate and study...absolutely, but again, the Holy Spirit can convey depth that study alone
does not achieve...again, in truth, not some weird or new revelation

3.If illumination is true, then there would be no disagreement among believers. oh well, there is always going to be disagreement ...with all the personalities and experiences
in life I don't think a point can be made that relies on agreement as evidence of illumination or no illumination. We are all at different stages of our walk and growth in Christ,
so sorry, disagree on this one...even though I am with you with regards to our exchange yesterday. MANY (and I do mean many) arguments are made and have been made
by both the involved and the observer with regards to the unity Christians are supposed to have, yet, that unity is brought about by love for one another...NOT doctrine..
let's not make a mistake on this one...the Bible does not state we will be known by our unity of doctrine cause lets just abandon ship right now cause I don' think that baby
is ever gonna float ;)...seriously, love is the glue, not doctrine...lack of love and respect and putting others before ourselves is so much harder ... just watch a thread where
a strong disagreement occurs...doctrine cause more arguments than anything else......and those who throw it out (doctrine) cause more error than anyone else.

One, only a small number of Christians actually have the Spirit......care to explain this please? and who are those Christians? it almost sounds like you are saying that
if there is a disagreement only one is right and that must be the person who does have the Holy Spirit...hope that is not what you mean...so please explain...I believe the Bible
indicates the opposite...we ALL have the Holy Spirit when we except Jesus as our Savior...I also believe that the infilling of the Holy Spirit is a separate issue

Let me ask, are you a cessationist? If you are, that is defining some of your answers...not trying to offend...just being objective. I am pretty direct, but I don't like to beat around the bush

OK...think I'll leave it here for now and deal with the other points later on.....so, the part below this is in response to your last post to me of yesterday.

2/3. Yes I agree the Spirit had not been given yet. However, Jesus is giving a specific promise to the disciples concerning what the Spirit would do for them. I do not think this is a promise for every believer. For instance, Jesus told his disciples in Acts 1 to wait in Jerusalem until you receive power from on high. I think the context of this shows this is a specific promise for a specific group of people. We are not all to run to Jerusalem when we read this verse and wait for power from on high.

22/23. Paul was an Apostle, not a teacher. Paul was not passing information along that he received from another human. He was revealing the mysteries of God in Christ that had been hidden in previous ages. So these "secrets" and "mysteries" and "deep things" are made plain in Paul's Gospel that we have preserved. In my opinion, this is not about secret inner discussions and feelings the Holy Spirit brings on every believer, but is dealing specifically with the message of the Apostles being proclaimed to the world. The message of wisdom was revealed to these Apostles by the Spirit...and we as Christians receive and accept their teaching. This "revelation" does not take place for every Christian. It was revealed..and now it is taught. So these verses are not about inner illumination, but the secrets of the Gospel being disclosed by the Apostles. I hope this makes sense. :)

1. I disagree...the Holy Spirit is promised to each and every believer. This, is a very big topic, but here are a couple of verses that indicate what I just wrote.


And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby you are sealed to the day of redemption. Eph 4:30 ALL believers

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. Gal 5: 22-23


Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God? You are not your own I Cor 6:19

You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. Rom 8:9
2. Apostles do not teach? Paul constantly taught...he went everywhere teaching delivering the gospel. We get most of OUR teaching from what Paul wrote so
how you can state he was not a teacher is well, splitting hairs just a wee wittle bit, no? :)

Paul, DID receive his knowledge through supernatural revelation BUT he made sure of ALL of it with those who had been with Jesus before he put into practice
what he had been taught by the Holy Spirit.

Now, do I believe for one moment that still happens today? No.

Do I believe that God can quicken His word to us and make it come alive and give us power through His Spirit like the disciples had, to witness for Him? Yes. I do.

I believe we have all the revealed truth we are going to get already BUT I believe we can understand it better through the illumination of the Holy Spirit...that is,
the Spirit of God revealing to our spirit the truth of what we read as truth from God.

I'll just mention again, that I think the real problem is personal revelation...not illumination as I understand that word in scripture....I believe that is actually one of
the Holy Spirits aid to us little earthlings ;)

I also believe we are to use our minds...God's word instructs us to renew our minds through the 66 books of the Bible...not new truths never before revealed.

That's how I see it and understand it and have lived it.

 

[Wormwood]

Thanks JB.

Hey Niki,

I appreciate your well thought-out replies.

1. I guess the point I would make is that this is pretty much a Calvinistic idea that revelation and inspiration alone are not sufficient for someone to know the truth. The idea that the Spirit must work either fully or partially for a person to grasp God's inspired revelation makes inspiration seem pointless. Why inspire the very words and phrases of Scripture if they remain locked unless the Holy Spirit grants a person access?

2. You will need to explain more. How does the Holy Spirit convey more depth? Are you saying here that the Holy Spirit needs us to study to convey that depth? If not, why should we study?

3. I agree and I think that is the point. If "Illumination" as a doctrine suggests that the Holy Spirit conveys correct understanding of the Bible, then those with the Holy Spirit should all have a "correct" and unanimous view on the Bible and its teachings. However, if the Scriptures are inspired to be understood and God allows us to use our God-given minds and energies to search out the inspired text, then we will certainly have different views. However, as you point out, whats most important is not being "correct" but loving each other in our differences.

What I was saying is that only a small number of Christians have the Spirit if the doctrine of illumination is true. If the Spirit is giving Christians correct knowledge of the Bible, then only a few can have the Spirit because only a few Christians agree on all the Bibles teachings. If two Christians disagree and both think they are being illumined by the Spirit...only one or neither of them really are. That's the problem. This is one reason why I don't believe it when people say that the Spirit gave them insight or proper knowledge of a text.

I don't think you are understanding me. Of course every believer has the Holy Spirit. I agree. My point is if every believer has the Holy Spirit, and the role of the Holy Spirit is to give illumination of the Bible, then every believer should agree on the Bible. The text in John 14 is Jesus talking to the disciples. Clearly other texts show that the Spirit is given to every believer, but this text is specifically talking about what the Spirit will do for the disciples. Give them revelatory insight and recollection of the words of Jesus. We are nto given that promise (because we did not follow him and hear his words taught to us audibly) That is what I was trying to say.

As far as Paul goes, he was an Apostle with regards to his office. He was not teaching information passed on to him. He was giving revelation of a message given to him by God. So while he may have "taught" this information, it was not teaching in the sense of an office. I teach, but I do not teach as one sent by God with a mystery hidden from ages past as Paul did. That was what I was trying to say. Apostle and teacher are two different offices.

 

[Niki]

As far as Paul goes, he was an Apostle with regards to his office. He was not teaching information passed on to him. He was giving revelation of a message given to him by God. So while he may have "taught" this information, it was not teaching in the sense of an office. I teach, but I do not teach as one sent by God with a mystery hidden from ages past as Paul did. That was what I was trying to say. Apostle and teacher are two different offices.

Ummm...I think you are kind of ignoring something here.....Paul, went to the apostles to make sure that what he had revealed was the truth. He was not revealing anything
in that regard....are all his letters of instruction revelations? Come on...that's just not so...I think you are dodging a bit...please don't be upset I say that...

One has to have an official office? Really? Where does the Bible say that? It's not in there nor does the scripture state that only one gift can operate through any one
person.

I'm not ignoring the rest of your post, but did you answer my question about whether or not you believe the gifts of the Spirit have ceased? Are you a cessatonist?

Sometimes, Paul wrote that what he was teaching was only his opinion and not instruction from the Lord, so it was not all 'revelation'.

What I was saying is that only a small number of Christians have the Spirit if the doctrine of illumination is true. If the Spirit is giving Christians correct knowledge of the Bible, then only a few can have the Spirit because only a few Christians agree on all the Bibles teachings. If two Christians disagree and both think they are being illumined by the Spirit...only one or neither of them really are. That's the problem. This is one reason why I don't believe it when people say that the Spirit gave them insight or proper knowledge of a text.

Well I don't know who is saying that because the Holy Spirit will only repeat what is truth and he will bring to our remembrance that which is truth. I will disagree that the Holy Spirit cannot
make scripture clearer....the Bible references itself and is not in disagreement with itself. It's really pretty easy to tell if what you are understanding is from God or not.

If it does not agree with the word, then I say forget about it.

You will need to explain more. How does the Holy Spirit convey more depth? Are you saying here that the Holy Spirit needs us to study to convey that depth? If not, why should we study?

Why are depth and study not compatible? I think they are. You know, we are promised that the Holy Spirit will bring to our remembrance that which we have learned
and been taught.

I don't know how it works, but it sure works for me. Scripture will immediately come to my mind in situations ... scripture that is applicable and answers questions or
helps me in some way. I do not memorize. I study and read...and it is the Holy Spirit who brings to my mind what I study and read....someone might disagree and
say that well, that is your own mind...but I know my mind is 'quickened'....works sharper and better, because I am filled with the Holy Spirit. By the way, there is no
special gift there...I think we all have been promised this.

"But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you. John 14:26


In what way are the words of Jesus not applicable to us in this century? We read what He spoke...they are His words and aren't they also to us? Saying Jesus was
only speaking to the disciples really does not make sense IMO.

 

[Justin Mangonel]

Dear W,

I read your writing on Illumination. Basically, it seems you may not have an understanding of how being led by the Holy Spirit works. I do not know if this is because you may have not experienced such illumination or because of your doctrinal stance. However, and to sum up why what you are saying against illuminates is not true the scriptures state,

"Lead me in thy truth, and teach me: for thou art the God of my salvation; on thee do I wait all the day."

Psalm 25:5

and,

"Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come."

John 16:13

I know you put a lot of work into your essay and I commend you for that. However, you are defending a position that is indefensible. Basically, after you analyze what you have written, you are arguing that understanding God through your mind is the safest and even the preferred method. You seem to try to deny or at least severely minimize the role of that the Holy Spirit plays in our understanding of God. however, the scriptures state plainly that the Holy Spirit will lead us into all truth and not just some or a little truth.

What you are espousing in your essay is the "knowledge of good." What you say "seems" good to you. It seems safe, reasonable, and reliable. It takes the "guess work" our of following God and reduces Christianity down to a set of established doctrines that define who God is and what our responsibility towards Him must be. Moreover, in this universe that you propose, everyone must believe what can be proven by your method in order to be in right relationship with their Father.

Basically, what you are saying boils down to mistrust of God. You are saying we cannot trust illumination (i.e. the leading of the Holy Spirit) but must rather trust analytical reasoning that "proves" from scripture what we must believe. Anything that cannot be proved thus must be rejected.

Life by revelation is the life God originally intended for all of mankind to live. What you would have us do is the opposite of that. It has not worked for 6000 years and, in fact, is the root of all sorts of evil.

Blessings,

Justin

 

[Wormwood]

Niki,

Don't worry about upsetting me :). I enjoy these discussions and understand people have strong convictions. I have a good enough understanding of different positions to know that my thoughts arent the only thoughts and that I could very well be wrong on a number of issues (although I dont think I am or I wouldnt believe what I believe!) Ha!

I think Paul indicates the opposite of what you are saying. He went to the other Apostles, not to learn from them, but to confirm that his revelation was consistent with their teaching. They "added nothing" to his teaching. Galatians 2:6

Well, "office" is a technical term. But I think Paul clearly says some are Apostles, teachers, prophets, etc. So an Apostle is not a teacher. They are different "offices" with different functions. Apostles are "sent ones" who have special revelation of God's work in Christ. Thus, they recieve divine insight on hidden information. This is the Spirits function among the pillars of the church, the Apostles. This is not what the Spirit does for every believer. Thus, those promises werefor Apostles in my estimation in 1 Cor. 2 and John 16, not you and I.

Well the spiritual gifts are a different blog. But to answer your question: I am not a cessationist, but I do believe many of the gifts had a specific function for a specific time. For instance, I believe many of the miraculous gifts were for validating the message. So I dont believe miracles cannot happen today, but that they are very unlikely because their primary function was to confirm the message about Jesus. Also, I believe the gift of tongues is possible today, but I do not believe the gift of tongues as we see it in charismatic circles is what we see in Scripture. I believe tongues in Scripture was a display of supernatural praise in actual foreign languages...primarily as a sign to unbelievers. Thus, I do not think tongues in the Bible was ever estatic expressions or personal prayer languages in "angelic" dialect.

Yes, some of Paul's writing was opinion...but if its in the Bible its inspired opinion. In any event, im not arguing that every word Paul ever uttered was a direct communication from God. What I am saying is that Paul and the Apostles were given divine insight into mysterious things of God...those Scriptures are not talking about every beleiver recieving illumined understanding.

You see, I think you are being inconsistent here. You believe God gives supernatural illumination of Biblical text. But then you say we need to study. So we only recieve illumination when we study? That seems odd. I think the more logical position is that we study to gain insight into God's powerful and inspired Word. It seems to me that illumination and study are at odds. The very notion of illumination is that knowledge is conveyed through the Spirit, not through a personal effort.

I agree that the Spirit will bring rememberance of things we studied. This is not illumination. The doctrine of illumination suggests that the Spirit gives you a correct understanding supernaturally as you read the word.

Justin,

Thanks for your response. Yes, I believe God leads us in truth through his revealed word not by injecting doctrinal accuracy in us through the Spirit. Psalm 25:14 I've already commented on the John 16 passage.

I think that you wrongfully separate body from spirit. We Christians are not Gnostics. Our minds are a gift from God...they are not evil. We are called to make the members of our bodies serve Christ rather than the sinful nature. I think your worldview is shaped more by the secularism and dualism that sprang from modernism than what the early Christians believed. Study, focus, diligence and self-control are not at odds with the Spirit. Since when does the notion of "Spiritual" imply impromptu acts or idleness?

Believe me Justin, this has nothing to do with "what seems good to me." It has everything to do with my understanding of God's revelation. I once lived based on "what seems good" for myself and I assure you that none of it included reading scripture, memorizing verses, listening to the Bible in my car or prayer. Again, I think trying to divorce study and diligently applying ones mind to the Word of God as unspiritual/carnal is terrible error.

Im not saying we cant trust the Holy Spirit. Im saying that the Bible does not teach illumination. Im saying trusting the Holy Spirit is not akin to gut reactions or personal intuition. I dont think David meditated on the Word of God day and night because he was carnal. Maybe he believed, like me, that the Spirit is not given to him for immediate enlightenment of divine truth.

I do live life by revelation. The Bible is God's revelation...not my personal gut feelings. I'd say more evil is perpetuated by people who claim their personal feelings are the very words of the Spirit of God (or perfect doctrinal understanding of His words) than by people who invest in disciplined study of the Scriptures. Eze. 13:2-3 Jesus did not rebuke the Pharisees for their study of God's Word. He rebuked them that in all their study they did not recognize Jesus as the Messiah and Savior. I do recognize that...so lets not paint this as trusting ones inner feelings = Spiritual vs. study = Carnal Pharisee.

 

[Niki]

I think Paul indicates the opposite of what you are saying. He went to the other Apostles, not to learn from them, but to confirm that his revelation was consistent with their teaching. They "added nothing" to his teaching. Galatians 2:6

Well, lets see what I said: This:Paul, went to the apostles to make sure that what he had revealed was the truth. That means the same as the word confirm. I hope you see that.
It is not the opposite...it is the same.

Well, "office" is a technical term. But I think Paul clearly says some are Apostles, teachers, prophets, etc. So an Apostle is not a teacher. They are different "offices" with different functions. Apostles are "sent ones" who have special revelation of God's work in Christ. Thus, they recieve divine insight on hidden information. This is the Spirits function among the pillars of the church, the Apostles. This is not what the Spirit does for every believer. Thus, those promises werefor Apostles in my estimation in 1 Cor. 2 and John 16, not you and I.

So do you believe that missionaries are now apostles as they are sent and believe God revealed to them that they should share the Good News in foreign countries....like Paul?

I think you are skirting the issue. God's promises are for all who believe. He is the same today as He was on the day of Pentecost and every day before and since and to come.

The Holy Spirit indwells the believer. He is more than a function. He is inside and seals you as belonging to Christ. He is comforter, teacher, and more...but He only represents
the One who sent Him. He is the third Person of the Trinity. Not an it or a force or a function. And so much more, but it is hard to get past the word function I'm afraid when God
promised the Holy Spirit through the prophet Joel as Jesus had been promised after the fall.....both were promised and both are God.

Well the spiritual gifts are a different blog. But to answer your question: I am not a cessationist, but I do believe many of the gifts had a specific function for a specific time. For instance, I believe many of the miraculous gifts were for validating the message. So I dont believe miracles cannot happen today, but that they are very unlikely because their primary function was to confirm the message about Jesus. Also, I believe the gift of tongues is possible today, but I do not believe the gift of tongues as we see it in charismatic circles is what we see in Scripture. I believe tongues in Scripture was a display of supernatural praise in actual foreign languages...primarily as a sign to unbelievers. Thus, I do not think tongues in the Bible was ever estatic expressions or personal prayer languages in "angelic" dialect.

It is my experience that those who deny the supernatural reality of the spiritual realm need to really think about that abit. God IS Spirit. He is not one of many. We say we believe the Bible, and all that Jesus did. Yet, we then state those things are not for today? Isn't believing in the virgin birth harder than believing that the Holy Spirit still is active?

I know about the many charlatans running around, but they were actually running around in Jesus day too and some are here on these boards proclaiming weird things and revelations...but we can expect that because we have been warned about false teachers and deceiving spirits and satan himself comes as an angel of light and is the father of all lies. However, there is still a baby in the bathwater ;)

Yes, some of Paul's writing was opinion...but if its in the Bible its inspired opinion. In any event, im not arguing that every word Paul ever uttered was a direct communication from God. What I am saying is that Paul and the Apostles were given divine insight into mysterious things of God...those Scriptures are not talking about every beleiver recieving illumined understanding.

LOL! Well, I have a few inspired opinions of my own and I would be sure to call them opinion. His opinions are in the Bible because they were in the letter he wrote and he called them opinion because he wanted to make sure everyone knew that was what it was. As it was only an opinion, I guess we can safely ignore it then?

You see, I think you are being inconsistent here. You believe God gives supernatural illumination of Biblical text. But then you say we need to study. So we only recieve illumination when we study? That seems odd. I think the more logical position is that we study to gain insight into God's powerful and inspired Word. It seems to me that illumination and study are at odds. The very notion of illumination is that knowledge is conveyed through the Spirit, not through a personal effort.

Woah. Back up there. I never ever said God gives supernatural illumination of Biblical text....those are your words and your doctrine. I don't have that doctrine and I never said those words. I said the Holy Spirit can quicken or make alive or even 'real' verses or text...that is not a revelation and the word illumine means to give light to...so, as long as you use a word that is actually biblical, as a false doctrine, I'm not sure you will understand what I say.

Let me state again for the sake of clairity.

I believe illumination through the Holy Spirit is biblical. In my first post in this thread, I defined the word.

Now, what I do NOT believe is biblical, are all the new revelations that deter from the Word and promise one experience after another.

The last book in the Bible is called Revelation. NOT illumination. The revelation came to John through an angel or the Spirit of God or even Jesus Himself...I'm not
sure, but it was NEW, NOT PREVIOUSLY KNOWN AND John received it while awake.

I agree that the Spirit will bring rememberance of things we studied. This is not illumination. The doctrine of illumination suggests that the Spirit gives you a correct understanding supernaturally as you read the word.

I did not say that it was. That, is bringing to my mind ...remembrance...things I have read or studied. Illumination is making a text stand out ...when someone has an aha moment because
they understand something better than they did before...in ACCORDANCE with everything else that is written. In other words, NOT what John experienced.

I don't know from where you got this doctrine of illumination...I don't have time to read or study it...but illumination is biblical, as how I have described it above...for new so called
truth, I have been taught and believe the correct word is revelation...as in something new is being revealed.

How can you illumine something new? You can only shed light on something you already have.

If it is new, it is revealed (as it was either hidden or not known previously)

If you understand better something you knew, then light has been shed on it.

 

[marksman]

Personally, I think it would be better to replace the word illumination with revelation, especially when the scripture says that the Holy Spirit will lead us into all truth. In other words, he gives us revelation as to what the scripture means.


We all need revelation whether it comes to us as an individual or collectively as a church. Without the revelation that comes by the Spirit we are building on sand because man's carnal thinking cannot discern the things of the Spirit.

When I was born again, I had no idea what "sanctification" or "justification" meant. Just the same as a toddler has no idea what transubstantiation means. I didn't teach my two year old about substantiation as it is irrelevant to the toddler and beyond his capabilities to understand.

I believe God is like that. He deals with us according to our age and ability to understand and he knows what we can understand at any given time. So that means he shows us by the Spirit what justification is when we are ready to receive the revelation.

Without that revelation, it is just someone's opinion and that is why we have all these different ideas. We are just getting people's opinion, not Holy Spirit revelation.

I was asked by a church to come and speak to them. Outwardly they seemed to be doing a good job, but it appears that was not the case. I prepared what I thought was the right message for them but about 15 minutes into the meeting I started crying and the Spirit said to me "criticism."

When it was my turn, I stood before the congregation and said I was going to talk about criticism. I can't remember what I said, but it revolutionised the church. Apparently there had been a lot of criticism going on about the pastor and his wife.

When I had finished I invited people to go and get right with people they had criticised. The meeting which had started at 11am finished at 2pm. I just stood there and watched as the people went to each other to ask forgiveness.

There was no hype, no pleading, no inspiring music, no nothing. Just go and get right.

I could have given them a nice sermon to tickle their ears and make myself look good, but it would have achieved very little. Instead, I chose to go with the revelation God gave me which was his agenda for the morning. The evidence was very clear. The revelation I received from God broke the yoke of bondage over that church.

 

[veteran]

Sorry, but I see wormwood's whole presentation as a complete un-Biblical flop.

And I will issue this warning, careful of how you use the word 'illumination' in these kind of matters, for the occultists also use that word illumination to point to their ideas of being enlightened by some hidden force or spirit not of God.

It's also very easy to prove that Faith on our Heavenly Father is necessary to come to understand His Holy Writ. All one need do is look at all the crazy interpretations unbelievers have when they read God's Word, their vain interpretations are a whole lot crazier than many of the theological doctrines of men that also go against Holy Writ.

 

[Angelina]

Hi Wormwood!
I finally got the opportunity to reply to your thread. :)

Before getting into it, I would first like to clarify the meaning of the terms used, Illumination and Inspiration.
The Blueletter Bible FAQ gives a concise explanation of these meanings...

Divine inspiration consists of God giving his truth while illumination refers to human beings understanding that truth.
The illumination theory of inspiration confuses the two.Furthermore, the Bible gives example of biblical writers who did not understand what God had revealed to them. This demonstrates they had not reached some spiritual plateau to be able to receive God's Word. Furthermore if this were true in the past, then why is it not true today? Why don't we see more Scripture being written?

This theory opens the door for any believer to compose Holy Scripture when given insights by God. However this is not necessary because God has spoken with finality in the New Testament. There is no need for any more divine revelation.

Based on the above terms, you said;

1. If illumination is true, inspiration is meaningless. Scripture is inspired. It is important to understand that if the doctrine of illumination is true, then inspiration is meaningless. Why would the Holy Spirit inspire the Bible and protect its truth if that truth
can only be transmitted via divine implanting through a means other than the text itself? Over and over again Scripture indicates that its inspired words can be understood by believers and non-believers alike and are inspired in a way that the words themselves can
produce life.

I agree that anyone can read the bible however, the problem with your statement is that the bible cannot be understood by all who read it. The bible is divinely inspired in the sense that, men moved by God wrote it. To gain understanding of it [be illuminated]...those who read it must be of the faith unless the Lord reveals otherwise. [2 Tim 3:16-17]

John writes, "These things have been written that you might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you might have life in his name." Thus, John is assuming that these words he has written contain the ability in their message to bring someone to faith so that a person might find life. If illumination were true, it would be the unilateral act of the illuminating Spirit that gives life and truth. John suggests his words contain truth and life and that an unbeliever can read them and believe (or
disbelieve). As one author put it, "If man cannot understand the written word, then God's revelation and inspiration have failed."

If you read this passage in context, you will find that Jesus just showed Thomas that he truly was the resurrected Lord. He then stated that those who have not seen such evidence but believe anyway...are blessed. John goes on to say that there are many signs that Jesus did in the presence of his disciples and they were recorded so that those who read, may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that by believing they may have life through his name.

I really think that this is referring to the Jews here because Gentile believer's were grafted in and were not awaiting the coming "Christ" the Son of God as these verses seem to indicate.

2. If illumination is true, studying the Bible is pointless. The Bible clearly instructs us to meditate on the Word and study to show ourselves approved so we can divide it correctly. However, this instruction is meaningless if illumination is true. If God is injecting truth in us via illumination, then what is the point of studying? Each Christian should just be able to grab his or her Bible and glance at a verse and receive a Spiritual insight with no need for study, knowledge of historical backgrounds, contexts, author's intent, word studies or anything else. All study is meaningless if illumination is true.

No..its not. You cannot gain understanding of the word [be illuminated by it] without reading it. The word meditate in the passage you are quoting, comes from the Greek word meletao, which means to "take care of, that is, (by implication) revolve in the mind: -imagine, (pre-) meditate...or [*think upon as in process within your mind*] *emphasis mine*

I think we can dismiss the rest of your argument as it shows that you also have different take on the "Illumination Theory" but we can agree that these theorists are incorrect in that they have confused the two meanings...

BTW; I noted that you used a similar method liken to Calvin's TULIP, in your argument progression. The problem with that...is that if you begin without a solid basis, it starts to wobble a bit at the end... ;)

Be Blessed!

 

[Wormwood]

Thaks for all of your resposnes and thougths thus far. Sorry, I have been traveling so havent had much time to look at this.

Niki,

So do you believe that missionaries are now apostles as they are sent and believe God revealed to them that they should share the Good News in foreign countries....like Paul?

I think you are skirting the issue. God's promises are for all who believe. He is the same today as He was on the day of Pentecost and every day before and since and to come.

No, missionaries are not Apostles. Paul was "unusally born" as an Apostle. This means direct revelation from Jesus himself. Missinoaries are evangelists/teachers. They are not Apostles...people sent directly from God with a previously unrevealed message.

The Holy Spirit indwells the believer. He is more than a function.

I never said the HS was a function. He gives gifts which allows us to have different functions in the body.

It is my experience that those who deny the supernatural reality of the spiritual realm need to really think about that abit. God IS Spirit. He is not one of many. We say we believe the Bible, and all that Jesus did. Yet, we then state those things are not for today? Isn't believing in the virgin birth harder than believing that the Holy Spirit still is active?

Woah. Back up there. I never ever said God gives supernatural illumination of Biblical text....

I believe illumination through the Holy Spirit is biblical. In my first post in this thread, I defined the word.

I never denied the supernatural. However, I think everyone realizes God works in different ways in different times. God is not splitting the Red Sea every day neither is he striking down the firstborn of every oppressive nation. Yes, God is the same, but that doesnt mean He has to operate the same way all the time

That next quote is perplexing. You said you dont believe God gives supernatural illumiation, but then you say that illumination through the Holy Spirit is biblical. Which is it?

That, is bringing to my mind ...remembrance...things I have read or studied. Illumination is making a text stand out ...when someone has an aha moment because they understand something better than they did before

Yes, I understand, but bringing somethign to mind and giving illumination of the correct interpretation of a text is two entirely different things. An "aha" moment implies Spirit-guided understanding (which also implies a correct understanding). Remembering a text you studied previously does not imply a Spirit-injected or infallible understanding of its meaning.

Marksman,

Personally, I think it would be better to replace the word illumination with revelation, especially when the scripture says that the Holy Spirit will lead us into all truth. In other words, he gives us revelation as to what the scripture means.

No, revelation implies a new teaching from God. It suggests a new message that is "revealed" and was previously hidden to humanity. If an individual gains insight into a previously revelaed teaching, it is defined as illumination. The text that talks about the Holy Spirit leading us into all truth has absolutely nothing to do with interpreting the Bible. John is writing against false teachers who are teaching Christians that they have to have special knowledge they possess in order to be saved. John is saying that the Holy Spirit guides us into relationship with God and we dont need the special "gnosis" of the false teachers. Again, this has nothing to do with a Spirit-guided process of Bible interpretation. Every person I know who claims to have such "truth" disagrees with another "Spirit-led" Christian who also claims to have a Spirit-guided interpretation of the same text.

V,

Sorry, but I see wormwood's whole presentation as a complete un-Biblical flop

I'd be happy to accept this claim if you had sufficient biblical evidence to support it. Although you present no argument so I can make no response.

Angelina,

Thanks for your great responses,

I agree with the quote. Although, my point and concern with illumination is not this doctrine in relation to the forming of Scriptuer. I am more concerned with the doctrine and interpreation of Scripture. Its a different discussion.

I agree that anyone can read the bible however, the problem with your statement is that the bible cannot be understood by all who read it. The bible is divinely inspired in the sense that, men moved by God wrote it. To gain understanding of it [be illuminated]...those who read it must be of the faith unless the Lord reveals otherwise. [2 Tim 3:16-17]

I agree that not everyone can understand the Bible. But the question here is, is the reason because God wont let them understand it or is there another reason they cant understand it? I disagree that God has to illumine a person to understand his inspired Word. I think most often people do not understand it is because they arent really seeking or they are hardened to the truth by their own stubborn will or refusal to listen. I believe it is the persons fault who doesnt understand the truth, not God's fault for not illuminating them.

I would disagree that John is writing to Jews exclusively. I dont think his Gospel supports this and I dont think any commentators suggest this. John probably wrote his Gospel around 70-80AD and it is more of an address agaisnt false teachings about Jesus. Moreover, I dont think the resurrection was a specific sign Jews were seeking. Christ may speak to Jews, but "Son of God' is likely focuing on Gentiles. In any event, I dont think the context discounts what I was trying to say.

Again, not sure if I am following what you are saying. I am not misunderstanding the doctrine of illumination. The point is not whether or not we begin to understand and are enlightened by God's word by meditating on its truth, but if God is the one empowering our understanding by his Spirit. These are two very different concepts. If God is the one enabling me and I cannot understand the Bible without his giviing me and illumined understanding then my study or lack thereof means nothing. The only thing that matters is whether God is illuminating me. However, if God's Word is inspired and inherently powerful, as I study and meditate on it, it can begin to transform me as I embrace and seek otu its truth. Do you see the difference here? There is a signficant difference.