Illumination

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Angelina

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Hi Wormwood,
Thanks for your reply :)
I agree that not everyone can understand the Bible. But the question here is, is the reason because God wont let them understand it or is there another reason they cant understand it? I disagree that God has to illumine a person to understand his inspired Word.
I think most often people do not understand it is because they arent really seeking or they are hardened to the truth by their own stubborn will or refusal to listen. I believe it is the persons fault who doesnt understand the truth, not God's fault for not illuminating them.
Well that is possible of course but if a non-believer has actually picked up a bible and is reading it, that person is definitely seeking the truth and God will illuminate that truth according to his will....Did you notice that Peter passed on this truth through his testimony of Jesus to the Gentiles who were gathered at Cornelius's house? The Holy Spirit fell on those who listened because they believed the words he was speaking. One cannot believe without having faith...

I would disagree that John is writing to Jews exclusively. I dont think his Gospel supports this and I dont think any commentators suggest this. John probably wrote his Gospel around 70-80AD and it is more of an address agaisnt false teachings about Jesus. Moreover, I dont think the resurrection was a specific sign Jews were seeking. Christ may speak to Jews, but "Son of God' is likely focuing on Gentiles. In any event, I dont think the context discounts what I was trying to say.
I do not know how you came to the conclusion that the "Son of God" was speaking to the Gentiles when they were exempt from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world?

Again, not sure if I am following what you are saying. I am not misunderstanding the doctrine of illumination. The point is not whether or not we begin to understand God's word, but if God is the one empowering our understanding by his Spirit or if we become enlightened by our own study and meditation on the truth. These are two very different concepts. If God is the one enabling me and I cannot understand the Bible without his giviing me and illumined understanding then my study or lack thereof means nothing. The only thing that matters is whether God is illuminating me. However, if God's Word is inspired and inherently powerful, as I study and meditate on it, it can begin to transform me as I embrace and seek otu its truth. Do you see the difference here? There is a signficant difference.
You are saying that by your own efforts of study and meditation that you are able to learn Gods truth because the word is divinely inspired. I am saying that "divinely Inspired" means that men moved by God wrote them... and that study is not meaningless even if the Holy Spirit is giving you understanding [illuminating] it...JMHO here
 

Justin Mangonel

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Dear W,

Well, you said, "I'm saying that the Bible does not teach illumination" I really don't understand how you can say that given the verses I quoted to you. Seems to me you should realize that God does give us understanding through the Holy Spirit. Seems I cannot undo your Gordian knot.

Blessings,

Justin
 

Arnie Manitoba

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The bible says that the gospel is nonsense to those who are perishing but good news to us who are saved.

I feel that part of that is the result of The Holy Spirit in us (the scriptures are Illuminated for us) ...... and lack of understanding for the unsaved who remain in (spiritual) darkness.

I am not sure if that is the proper use of the word "illuminated" or not ..... but certainly the bible uses such terminology as .... you are not in darkness .... but walk in the light .... etc.

I have an interesting personal testimony in that regard. I was born with a higher than average IQ along with a tremendous natural reading ability ...... from a young age I devoured books from cover to cover ..... only true stories , educational , and factual information .... I was never interested in fiction and to this day dont read fiction.

There was no religion in our family ..... yet I always believed in God and thought the bible was true ..... maybe because the small country school I attended said the Lords prayer every day along with a scripture verse read out by the teacher.

Now here is my point ..... as an avid reader I was eager to read the bible from cover to cover to analyze it for once and for all ...... but it was an absolutely dead book to me ..... it was strange how that worked ..... it is like i was blinded to the scriptures or something.

Until one day when I was about 34 years old I picked up a bible and asked god to help me understand it ...... from that moment on the scriptures came alive and I have been reading them for over 27 years now.

The best way i could describe it is that the bible message was now "illuminated" for me.

It was really similar to .... "turning on a light switch" ..... after I asked God for help.

I pray that you all walk in the Light.
 

Niki

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That next quote is perplexing. You said you dont believe God gives supernatural illumiation, but then you say that illumination through the Holy Spirit is biblical. Which is it?
these are the things God has revealed to us by his Spirit.
The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. 11For who knows a person’s thoughts except their own spirit within them? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. 12What we have received is not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may understand what God has freely given us. 13This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, explaining spiritual realities with Spirit-taught words.c 14The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit. 15The person with the Spirit makes judgments about all things, but such a person is not subject to merely human judgments, 16for,

“Who has known the mind of the Lord
so as to instruct him?”d

But we have the mind of Christ.

We cannot with our own minds fathom what God speaks to our spirits and I am not meaning what some are meaning. I am meaning simply what scripture states.

Again, illumination means to shed light

Revelations is not the same. I believe you are confusing the two. I have stated that since my first post.

The Holy Spirit IS Spirit.......you can call it supernatural...YET...it should be the norm for Christians. We have a spirit also. THAT is how we commune with God's spirit.

Our minds are to be renewed by the word...not our OWN understanding...but how God means what He states and again, NOT outside or in direct conflict with the Bible.

God has not set us before us a bunch of weird directive or super spiritual nonsense that only a few can attain.

The gifts are for the BODY not one or two individuals or super spiritual leaders who lead by subjective experience and yet expect others to obey them as though
THEY were the Holy Spirit.

I believe discernment is something every Christian should get on their knees and pray to God for. Discernment comes through experience, study, knowledge and
the Holy Spirit. He ties it all together and yes, I have veered a bit of course here, but unless a person has the discernment taught in scirpture, they are apt to
follow whatever 'feels' good or 'feels' like God.

Until one day when I was about 34 years old I picked up a bible and asked god to help me understand it ...... from that moment on the scriptures came alive and I have been reading them for over 27 years now.
yeah...that is what I mean. Thanks
 

Wormwood

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Angelina,

Well that is possible of course but if a non-believer has actually picked up a bible and is reading it, that person is definitely seeking the truth and God will illuminate that truth according to his will....Did you notice that Peter passed on this truth through his testimony of Jesus to the Gentiles who were gathered at Cornelius's house? The Holy Spirit fell on those who listened because they believed the words he was speaking. One cannot believe without having faith...
I dont deny a person has to seek or have faith. I just dont believe God injects them with truth. The truth is preserved in the inspired Word (whether preached or read in Scripture) and certainly the Spirit convicts and softens hearts. But he does not give correct interpretation. I dont think you are following my points here.

I do not know how you came to the conclusion that the "Son of God" was speaking to the Gentiles when they were exempt from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world?
Huh? John wrote this probably around 80AD when the Church was full of Gentiles. Son of God was a phrase the Gentiles would have been very familiar with....remember the centurian at Jesus' crucifixion? "Surely this man was the Son of God."? Mark's Gospel is certainly directed toward Gentiles and "son of God" is the dominant phrase of the book.

You are saying that by your own efforts of study and meditation that you are able to learn Gods truth because the word is divinely inspired. I am saying that "divinely Inspired" means that men moved by God wrote them... and that study is not meaningless even if the Holy Spirit is giving you understanding [illuminating] it...JMHO here
Yes, men were moved by God when they wrote them to perfectly convey divine truth. Why would that be necessary if God is hiding that truth from people, only to unveil it through the process of illumination? I find it convienient that the Holy Spirit just so happens to illuminate a person when they study.

Justin,

I did respond to your verses. The Psalms do not teach us that God illumines the reader to a Spirit-inspired interpretation of God's Word. If anything, it emphasizes over and over again that God "leads us" as we meditate upon and obey his commands. There is nothing in this Psalm that suggests that David is thinking about a mystical leading/knowledge to interpret the Law. Verse 14 lets us know how God "leads" those who fear him. He exposes them to his Word (law and OT covenant in Davids' time). David says in the Psalms, "Because I meditate on your Law, I am wiser than all my teachers." Notice, he does not say, "Because your Spirit gives me correct understanding of your Law, I am wiser than all my teachers." The Bible does not teach illumination.

As far as John 16 goes, Jesus is talking to his Apostles. All of chapter 15-16 is a direct address to them regarding his coming crucifixion and their ministry after his resurrection. Certainly there are principles there for all of us, but when Jesus says the Spirit will remind them of everything he spoke to them...we have to assume this is a promise to the Apostles. Jesus did not "speak" to us in his earthly ministry, so how can he remind us of the things he said to us when he spoke to us? Jesus told Paul that he would send him as an Apostles to the Gentiles and he would suffer many things for his name's sake. Is this verse pointed directly to us as well? Are we all sent to only the Gentiles with the promise of suffering greatly? No. Jesus was talking to Saul/Paul not Justin here.

Arnie,

I dont doubt your story. However, the way one approaches God's Word certainly has an impact on its effect on a person's life. However, this has more to do with you and your openness and humility than it does to God preventing you from knowing his truth and then giving you a correct interpretation of it via the Spirit. Again, this discussion is not about how the Spirit opens our eyes when we approach the Word of God prayerfully and submissively. It is about those who believe that the Spirit gives them correct understanding of the text.

So far no one has really addressed my points in the original post. If the Spirit is giving you correct understanding of the Bible, then you must have an inspired interpretation of the text. And anyone who disagrees with such a Spirit-led understanding of the Bible must not have the Spirit. God's power to change us as we submit to His word is quite different from God giving correct understanding to someone reading his word while preventing others from understanding it. Remember the parable of the seeds? It wasnt that God was throwing fruitless seed....its some soil was unfit to let the seed grow.

Niki,

You are pointing to 1 Cor. 2 again. Who is the "We" in this text? Look at 1 Cor. 4:1. The "we" is the Apostles who have been given the Gospel to preach. Meanwhile, the Corinthians are "carnal" and dividing over which teacher they will follow. That is the context of this passage. So I think you are misunderstanding that text.

You say "God renews our minds by the Word not our own understanding." I agree. I never said that we are transformed by common sense. We fill our minds with God's Word and God's truth. However, this has nothing to do with the doctrine of illumination. I am not suggesting we conjure up our own ideas about God. Rather, we fill ourselves with revealed and inspired truth. However, we do not need an additional act of illumination to understand God's revealed and inspired truth. Show me this in Scripture.
 

Niki

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We just have a very different take on what illumination and revelation actually are wormwood. If you believe what I quoted from I Cor is not meant for believers, then
there is quite a large disparity in how we believe what scripture teaches.

I have heard taught that passage the way I explained that same way, in the most conservative of churches actually, and the way you seem to understand it,
it is almost as though you are trying to disprove something.

I think most people understand the way I understand frankly. As I stated way back up the page, you have an understanding of illumination I never encountered before.

The word simply means to shed light upon and you have not addressed that all.

When Jesus asked Peter who he thought he was, and Peter answered "You are the Christ"..Jesus said to him that flesh and blood had not revealed that to him.

Flesh and blood cannot reveal what is of the Spirit of God either. Salvation is not of the flesh, understanding according to the Bible is not of the flesh, the gifts of
the Spirit are not of the flesh...so, I don't know how you can continue to state certain things you agree with but then state that the very impetus for understanding
scripture, is not something available to us today.

Although I don't like the expression 'we will have to agree to disagree' I am going to use it here and bow out because this is going in circles.

Thanks...no hard feelings.
 

Arnie Manitoba

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You make many very good points Wormwood .... and I am often inclined to agree

However ..... I am tempted to start at the very beginning by asking ..... "who came up with the term ''illumination'' in the first place ... ?

Is it a man made construct designed by some folks who feel "more illuminated" than others ?

I suspect it is

We all know the scriptures were inspired by The Holy Spirit which of course makes them absolutely accurate.

So if we men and women have that same Holy Spirit within us ..... and are "illuminated" .... then of course we should read and interpret those scriptures with the same degree of accuracy.

But we all know it does not work that way

A hundred Christians can read the same verses and come up with a hundred interpretations.

So in order to try to explain those discrepancies .... we find folks who try to claim that "they alone" have the "proper spirit" (illumination) and the other 99 do not have the same "illumination" when it comes to scripture.

Men say ..... my pickup truck is better than your pickup truck
Men say .... my denomination is better than your denomination
Men say .... my interpretation of scripture is better than your interpretation of scripture
Men say .... the Holy Spirit in me is better than The Holy Spirit in you
Men say .... the bible is illuminated better for me than for you

yada yada yada

I do not think those sayings are authored by The holy Spirit .
They come from the prideful hearts of prideful men .
Pride has always been a problem .... even within Christianity
We all know pride was Satan's downfall
Are we sometimes playing in his playground ?

Heck .... even the occultists consider themselves enlightened and illuminated.
We are not alone in making those claims


My attempt to "explain" all this would be summarized by saying not all bible readers have sufficient intelligence for even the most basic scholarly study ..... so they grab a few favorite verses and run with them.

At one time Bibles were kept chained to the pulpit and out of the hands of the peasants.

Nowadays every peasant has a bible

Thus all the messy noise
 

Wormwood

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Niki,

Thanks for your comments. I appreciate your thoughts and hope this discussion has been something that has challenged you to search our the Word more deeply and has not been offensive in any way.

Arnie,

I agree with you and think you understand where I am coming from. I am speaking of "illumination" as a specific doctrine that has been defined and defended over the years. Many people believe it but have never really looked into it carefully or were aware they were being taught it. It has just been assumed which is why I have written this blog. I think we all need to be willing to investigate our assumptions to ensure that they are actually supported by Scripture. Too many times I hear Christians using the Spirit as their defense for their interpretation and claiming others who don't agree with them don't listen to the Spirit. I find this to be a very sad and fruitless means of discussing such matters. If Christians understand that the Bible is inspired and God has given us a pure word communicated in a way that anyone can understand it if they search it out, then maybe we would spend more time searching and meditating and less time casually reading with the assumption that our view is obviously God's view.

However, I would also say that there are some very humble and gracious people who disagree strongly. I think this is okay, so long as we hold to our convictions with the realization that we are finite people with limited understandings. We are called to love each other as we search things out with conviction and humility. However, when we start claiming that my gut feeling is a sign that I have an illumined view of a text given by the Spirit, then we cross a dangerous line. Very quickly a humble debate can turn into one person claiming another is without the Spirit or that study is for the carnal while my gut instincts are the way of the Spirit. Thus, the doctrine of illumination leads to harsh divisiveness, undermines study and diligence when approaching God's Word and prevents the kind of love that can embrace another because they differ from us on non-essentials. This "my way or the highway because it's the Spirit's way" is a very unchristian and unbiblical approach to the Bible and practical Christian living.
 

Angelina

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Hi Wormwood,
I'm sorry that I have not been back to you straight away but I have been so busy. I am hoping to have some time after work tomorrow night to continue with our discussion...

See you then... :)
 

Niki

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At one time Bibles were kept chained to the pulpit and out of the hands of the peasants.

Nowadays every peasant has a bible

Thus all the messy noise

Interesting perspective. So a Bible in the hands of an under-educated (according to the viewpoint you appear to present) is messy? Peasants? Oh my...and to think that
women have the vote too. What IS this world coming to?

Niki,

Thanks for your comments. I appreciate your thoughts and hope this discussion has been something that has challenged you to search our the Word more deeply and has not been offensive in any way.

Not at all W. Not at all. I am always keen to examine the Bible and make sure that my foundation is a good one. I have no argument in spiritual matters save the one that
expresses subjective experience seeking to be the new truth. ;)

Thanks
 

Angelina

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just cleaned up this thread...
13426796.gif


Thanks!
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I'm Back! :)
Arnie, you said something that really rang a bell for me. You had trouble reading the bible in the past and so did I. When I was given my first bible I determined myself to read it and I could not. I spent days, which turned into months, trying to read the thing but it just would not get in. I found myself reading the same passages without even noticing and at times waking up in the middle of the night with pages stuck to my face... :unsure: but I was determined to read it and knew I had to get the words past my mind and into my heart. Finally, I asked the Lord to help me to understand his word and it was like a light went on. I finally broke through a barrier that held me back from understanding what was written...

Hi Wormwood!
2 Tim 3:16
16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,

I can only re-iterate the point that this scripture speaks of being given by inspiration, meaning men moved by God wrote it.
Also note that prophecy itself, did not originate from human orators but these men spoke from God through the Holy Spirit 2 Peter 1. The bible records what these men spoke....

I dont deny a person has to seek or have faith. I just dont believe God injects them with truth. The truth is preserved in the inspired Word (whether preached or read in Scripture) and certainly the Spirit convicts and softens hearts. But he does not give correct interpretation. I dont think you are following my points here.
[SIZE=10pt]You stated that “The Holy Spirit does not give correct interpretation yet the OT Prophets were men who spoke the oracles of God under the power of the same Holy Spirit? How could those who read the bible without the aide of the Holy Spirit, understand such things since they are spiritually discerned? 1 Corinthians 2:14 [/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]When Jesus walked with two of his disciples on the Emmaus road…and he stayed with them that evening “and [/SIZE] When he was at the table with them, he took bread, gave thanks, broke it and began to give it to them. 31 Then their eyes were opened and they recognized him, and he disappeared from their sight. 32 They asked each other, “Were not our hearts burning within us while he talked with us on the road and opened the Scriptures to us? Luke 24

Also note the story of [SIZE=10pt]Philip and the Eunuch [/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]The Ethiopian proselyte was reading out of the book of Isaiah but could not understand the passage he was reading until Philip explained it to him Acts 8:31. [/SIZE]

Huh? John wrote this probably around 80AD when the Church was full of Gentiles. Son of God was a phrase the Gentiles would have been very familiar with....remember the centurion at Jesus' crucifixion? "Surely this man was the Son of God."? Mark's Gospel is certainly directed toward Gentiles and "son of God" is the dominant phrase of the book.
[SIZE=10pt]My thoughts were…since he was speaking of Jesus and Thomas, he was actually referring to that time period and not the one he was writing from…[/SIZE] :huh:

Yes, men were moved by God when they wrote them to perfectly convey divine truth. Why would that be necessary if God is hiding that truth from people, only to unveil it through the process of illumination? I find it convenient that the Holy Spirit just so happens to illuminate a person when they study.
[SIZE=10pt] Indeed…it depends what one is studying. Most people do not study randomly. They usually have some form of study strategy or they may want to get into more depth on a particular verse or passage of scripture or theme… [/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]I was reading this passage of scripture tonight… :)[/SIZE][SIZE=10pt] [/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]Matthew 9[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]10 Now it happened, as Jesus sat at the table in the house, that behold, many tax collectors and sinners came and sat down with Him and His disciples. 11 And when the Pharisees saw it, they said to His disciples, “Why does your Teacher eat with tax collectors and sinners?”[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]12 When Jesus heard that, He said to them, “Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. 13 But go and learn what this means: ‘I desire mercy and not sacrifice.’ For I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners, to repentance.”[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]When I got to verse 13 the Holy Spirit reminded to me of the story of the prodigal Son. Then he [illuminated, shed light upon, revealed] how that verse applied to the Prodigal Son story. This is awesome because I have grasped a hold of a biblical account that relates to “I desire mercy and not sacrifice.” [/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]If another believer reads this same passage and gets something different out of it…does it make one of us wrong? [/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]You stated that “[/SIZE] If illumination is true, then there would be no disagreement among believers.” There was always disagreement among believers. Pharisees and Sadducees did not agree on many points of doctrine concerning scripture. They had the writings available to them just as we have today. Paul and Barnabas had to go to the Jerusalem Council to clarify a dispute which erupted between them and certain men from Judea regarding circumcising the new believers.

Shalom!
 

Niki

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I thought that was a good post Angelina and I can also identify with having my understanding helped and further, I often find I will be directed to scripture
that is 'just right' at the time.

I think there is actually plenty of disagreement in the NT....they argued, split up, acted hypocritical...pretty much the same like today.
 

Arnie Manitoba

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Niki said:
Interesting perspective. So a Bible in the hands of an under-educated (according to the viewpoint you appear to present) is messy? Peasants? Oh my...and to think that
women have the vote too. What IS this world coming to?
Maybe under-educated is the wrong word ..... the point I was trying to make is that some folks incorrectly read some verses .... then miss-apply them doctrinally ..... and things become messy (doctrinally)

Whereas a more learned scholar would seek out the proper context and interpretation

not to say that scholars are bulletproof either ... neither are all church leaders entirely correct .

Let me back up a little further to the time before the protestant reformation ..... for all practical purposes only the church leaders has access to the bible ..... furthermore most of the "commoners" .... (peasants) were un-educated and could not read anyway.

This caused its own problems because church leaders could teach and preach whatever they wanted and many of them veered off into some strange doctrines.

After the Protestant reformation and more people had reading abilities ..... the commoner (peasant) could begin to read his own bible ..... but that caused problems when he miss-applied scripture .

Just like the brick-layer should not be engineering a skyscraper ..... the bricklayer should not presume to get his bible correct every time.
 

Angelina

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I doubt that there would be many who read a verse and misapply them, without there being a specific idea already implanted in their thoughts. Believers who spend time reading without being part of a fellowship continue to believe what they have understood because it never gets tested by others. I was a part of a large Baptist Church where I encountered some folks who believed the craziest things because they only came to Church "once in a blue moon" and spent the rest of the time studying God's word on their own. You will also note that these same folk only studied what appealed to them and not the entire bible as a whole.

Blessings!!!
 

Niki

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Arnie Manitoba said:
Maybe under-educated is the wrong word ..... the point I was trying to make is that some folks incorrectly read some verses .... then miss-apply them doctrinally ..... and things become messy (doctrinally)

Whereas a more learned scholar would seek out the proper context and interpretation

not to say that scholars are bulletproof either ... neither are all church leaders entirely correct .

Let me back up a little further to the time before the protestant reformation ..... for all practical purposes only the church leaders has access to the bible ..... furthermore most of the "commoners" .... (peasants) were un-educated and could not read anyway.

This caused its own problems because church leaders could teach and preach whatever they wanted and many of them veered off into some strange doctrines.

After the Protestant reformation and more people had reading abilities ..... the commoner (peasant) could begin to read his own bible ..... but that caused problems when he miss-applied scripture .

Just like the brick-layer should not be engineering a skyscraper ..... the bricklayer should not presume to get his bible correct every time.
Protestant Reformation temporal re-visit:

Cheese whiz Arnie. Back then, before they had Adidas running shoes, people did not send the kiddies off to school to learn to read and write. So..........only those in the
religious industries vocations had quill and parchment pressed to their bosom along with an inkwell that was as messy as it was inconvenient. As well, of course, as various
other educated and gainfully employed individuals such as ship's captains, explorers, lawyers, etc.

The Bible was used to control people as much as anything else and as that is not God's purpose the pendulum was bound to swing the other way. Which it did.

Enter the lowly but educated human being with Bible in hand...still just following along because they were TOLD they could not understand the Bible even if they read it.
That was very helpful.

Then we have that very dangerous monk named Luther who turned the whole of Catholic Christendom on its noggin and the good, but common, folk, rejoiced in their
liberator...but alas even he was not perfect.

No one, sadly, is.

Re-read your post. Your conclusion appears to be that a Bible in the hands of one person is not good and a Bible in the hands of the general populace is not good either.

Which is why God had endowed some with the gift of teaching and other gifts as well. That, in particular, is really problematical because we have cessationists who state
the Holy Spirit is semi-retired and we have those who do not think a church service is 'good' unless we have three prophecies, screaming in tongues a healing and perhaps
a casting out of a demon or two. No, I'm not making fun.

Quite a zoo, eh? Let all things be done decently and in order. God does not change according to scripture, so people must be the problem.

Wait! Isn't that what you said? People are the problem? Maybe so, but in spite of it all, God's will is assured and His purpose fulfilled. We have something to look forward to
even if we cannot straighten everyone else out.

But wait....wait...the only job we have is to get ourselves straightened out. Work out your own salvation with trembling and fear. I think God knows about the problem.

A little tongue in cheek, but true. I have heard people moan over the NT church and how they wish we could be like that now...I used to be one of those people in fact.

The truth is, the NT church was no different then church now. It was just newer and fresher...big problems right there in fact.
 

Arnie Manitoba

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Niki said:
Re-read your post. Your conclusion appears to be that a Bible in the hands of one person is not good and a Bible in the hands of the general populace is not good either.
I said no such thing .... I said there are always problems on both sides ..... and the problems often stem from someone who feels "more illuminated" than others.

Or feel they are "more spiritual" than others
 

Wormwood

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Angelina said:
just cleaned up this thread...
13426796.gif


Thanks!
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I'm Back! :)
Arnie, you said something that really rang a bell for me. You had trouble reading the bible in the past and so did I. When I was given my first bible I determined myself to read it and I could not. I spent days, which turned into months, trying to read the thing but it just would not get in. I found myself reading the same passages without even noticing and at times waking up in the middle of the night with pages stuck to my face... :unsure: but I was determined to read it and knew I had to get the words past my mind and into my heart. Finally, I asked the Lord to help me to understand his word and it was like a light went on. I finally broke through a barrier that held me back from understanding what was written...

Hi Wormwood!
2 Tim 3:16
16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,

I can only re-iterate the point that this scripture speaks of being given by inspiration, meaning men moved by God wrote it.
Also note that prophecy itself, did not originate from human orators but these men spoke from God through the Holy Spirit 2 Peter 1. The bible records what these men spoke....



You stated that “The Holy Spirit does not give correct interpretation yet the OT Prophets were men who spoke the oracles of God under the power of the same Holy Spirit? How could those who read the bible without the aide of the Holy Spirit, understand such things since they are spiritually discerned? 1 Corinthians 2:14

When Jesus walked with two of his disciples on the Emmaus road…and he stayed with them that evening “and When he was at the table with them, he took bread, gave thanks, broke it and began to give it to them. 31 Then their eyes were opened and they recognized him, and he disappeared from their sight. 32 They asked each other, “Were not our hearts burning within us while he talked with us on the road and opened the Scriptures to us? Luke 24

Also note the story of Philip and the Eunuch
The Ethiopian proselyte was reading out of the book of Isaiah but could not understand the passage he was reading until Philip explained it to him Acts 8:31.


My thoughts were…since he was speaking of Jesus and Thomas, he was actually referring to that time period and not the one he was writing from… :huh:



Indeed…it depends what one is studying. Most people do not study randomly. They usually have some form of study strategy or they may want to get into more depth on a particular verse or passage of scripture or theme…

I was reading this passage of scripture tonight… :)

Matthew 9
10 Now it happened, as Jesus sat at the table in the house, that behold, many tax collectors and sinners came and sat down with Him and His disciples. 11 And when the Pharisees saw it, they said to His disciples, “Why does your Teacher eat with tax collectors and sinners?”

12 When Jesus heard that, He said to them, “Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. 13 But go and learn what this means: ‘I desire mercy and not sacrifice.’ For I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners, to repentance.”

When I got to verse 13 the Holy Spirit reminded to me of the story of the prodigal Son. Then he [illuminated, shed light upon, revealed] how that verse applied to the Prodigal Son story. This is awesome because I have grasped a hold of a biblical account that relates to “I desire mercy and not sacrifice.”

If another believer reads this same passage and gets something different out of it…does it make one of us wrong?

You stated that “ If illumination is true, then there would be no disagreement among believers.” There was always disagreement among believers. Pharisees and Sadducees did not agree on many points of doctrine concerning scripture. They had the writings available to them just as we have today. Paul and Barnabas had to go to the Jerusalem Council to clarify a dispute which erupted between them and certain men from Judea regarding circumcising the new believers.

Shalom!
Angelina,
I'm on my iPad so this will be brief. Thanks for your thoughts. I think you have a great many assumptions here that is hard to wade through in a short amount of time.

Yes. I believe the Scriptures are inspired. This is precisely why I don't believe they have to be illuminated to be understood. Why inspire the exact words when it doesn't matter cause they can't be understood apart from a work quite outside the meaning of the actual words themselves?

Certainly the Scriptures are not written in accordance with mans wisdom. This does not mean they cannot be understood apart from divinely enlightened interpretation.

As far as the Ethiopian and Emmaus road, they hardly teach illumination. Rather, they support the need for teachers to instruct, not an inner enlightenment. If you are referring to Jesus not being recognized initially, I'd say this is a stretch as a proof text for illumination.

I have no doubt the Spirit brings other passages to your mind as you study. This is not illumination. Illumination is about correct interpretation, not remembering other like passages. For instance, when someone claims that they were reading Matthew and the Spirit showed them what Jesus meant when he spoke of binding things on earth or that they understood the False prophet of Revelation to be the Pope...it's simply not true. The Spirit does not work that way or all Spirit led Christians would agree on issues like head covering, women's roles in church, the meaning and significance of baptism, the meaning of "baptism of the dead," the meaning of the millennium, the 144,000, tongues, and every other challenging verse that shapes our thinking, expectations and practices.

The Spirit does not give correct interpretations of the Bible.
 

Niki

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Arnie Manitoba said:
I said no such thing .... I said there are always problems on both sides ..... and the problems often stem from someone who feels "more illuminated" than others.

Or feel they are "more spiritual" than others

You in your small corner and I in mine.

Back to the op seems like the best exit strategy.
 

Angelina

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Yes. I believe the Scriptures are inspired. This is precisely why I don't believe they have to be illuminated to be understood. Why inspire the exact words when it doesn't matter cause they can't be understood apart from a work quite outside the meaning of the actual words themselves?
..because these words are actions written down, not just words...The bible is a written record of the author/s....and the story comes to life in the heart of those reading it through the Holy Spirit

Certainly the Scriptures are not written in accordance with mans wisdom. This does not mean they cannot be understood apart from divinely enlightened interpretation.
The Scribes and the Pharisees had access to the OT scriptures yet they crucified one they were waiting for...why? 1 Corinthians 2:7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12 it's because they did not understand scripture...they were waiting for a conqueror...a King

As far as the Ethiopian and Emmaus road, they hardly teach illumination. Rather, they support the need for teachers to instruct, not an inner enlightenment. If you are referring to Jesus not being recognized initially, I'd say this is a stretch as a proof text for illumination.
I was referring to this piece in particular:
29 The Holy Spirit said to Philip, “Go over and walk along beside the carriage.”
30 Philip ran over and heard the man reading from the prophet Isaiah. Philip asked, “Do you understand what you are reading?” 31 The man replied, “How can I, unless someone instructs me?” And he urged Philip to come up into the carriage and sit with him.

If it were just a matter of Philip explaining to the Eunuch about the message of the cross, there would not be any need for the Holy Spirit's presence..

I have no doubt the Spirit brings other passages to your mind as you study. This is not illumination. Illumination is about correct interpretation, not remembering other like passages.
Please read my post again...I did not say that he just reminded me of scripture - but that he also [illuminated, shed light upon, revealed] how Matthew 9:13, applied to the Prodigal Son story, “I desire mercy and not sacrifice.” That may mean nothing to you but it is something I had been wondering about for some time...

For instance, when someone claims that they were reading Matthew and the Spirit showed them what Jesus meant when he spoke of binding things on earth or that they understood the False prophet of Revelation to be the Pope...it's simply not true. The Spirit does not work that way
I do not know what you are talking about. Binding and loosing is a normal part of Spiritual Warfare in most Pentecostal/Charismatic Churches and the majority of eschatology enthusiasts, work out the book of Revelation based on scripture themselves...which [funny enough] tends to differ remarkably. :huh:

or all Spirit led Christians would agree on issues like head covering, women's roles in church, the meaning and significance of baptism, the meaning of "baptism of the dead," the meaning of the millennium, the 144,000, tongues, and every other challenging verse that shapes our thinking, expectations and practices.
All the above is based on each individual Church. There will never be a universal Church agreement on such things due to the Churches theology or/and modus operandi...

The Spirit does not give correct interpretations of the Bible.
The Holy Spirit gives us understanding of the word at the right time in our walk with him. Each of us have an individual walk and also a corporate one when coming together. Each individual has a different testimony because they come from different backgrounds, upbringing and socio/economic&political climates. God meets us where we are and teaches us through the Holy Spirit, what is right and good and just and yes, what is true. The Holy Spirit teaches us the truth of God through his word....

Added: So in a sense - illuminating, shedding light upon, revealing and gaining understanding of the bible, with the help of the Holy Spirit. has never been about "correct interpretation" but about the truth! :huh:

Shalom!