Independence Day eve: History)The Founders Meant to Keep Government Out of the Church, Not God Out of the Government

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BlessedPeace

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"Constitution's Last Words Reference Christ"​


Source:CBN
7/3/2024
Paul Strand


The 4th of July makes us think of our independence and freedoms. And recent legal battles over religious liberty in the U.S.A. raise serious questions about the freedom to worship in America. So when our Founders came up with the First Amendment, were they trying to keep the government free from religion, or religion free from government?
These days, the phrase "wall of separation between church and state" has come to mean keeping God or His believers from having a big effect on government and public life. But that’s far, far from what the Founding Fathers were thinking of when they were separating church and state.

Fear of an All-Powerful State Church Wed to the Power of the Government
They were afraid of what so many of the Old World countries had: a religion established by the state as its one true religion, that would tyrannically rule over the faith and conscience of every citizen.

As the Providence Forum’s Peter Lillback put it, “They recognized having a monolithic church was a dangerous thing.” That's because it made the king not only their physical sovereign but also their all-powerful spiritual ruler.

Before the Pilgrims fled England, Wallbuilders' David Barton recalled, “The Pilgrims’ pastor was executed because he made the statement that Jesus Christ is head of the church. And the monarch said, ‘oh no, I’m the head of the church. You’re dead.’”

Wouldn't Allow a Church of America Like the Brits Had the Church of England
Knowing of such terror and tyranny, AmericanMinute.com historian William Federer explained how the Founders felt: "Their big fear was the federal government was going to follow the blueprint of every country in Europe and pick one national denomination."
So what they meant by saying in the First Amendment "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion" was that the federal government was banned from creating – or "establishing" – a national religion with the national government wedded to it.
"They didn't want to have a national, established Church of America like you have the Church of England, forcing people to believe something that they didn't believe in," said Jerry Newcombe, host of the radio program "Vocal Point".
“What they said was, 'We don't want a state church here. Consciously, therefore, they were separating the church from government," Lillback said.

But that was strictly to protect the churches and each believer’s faith and conscience from the government.

All About Protecting Each American's Conscience and Freedom to Believe

Not only did the First Amendment say, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion," but it also said, "or prohibiting the free exercise thereof."
"What they wanted was the freedom that we have in the Bible: the rights of conscience," Barton said. "And they didn't want the state telling us how we could or couldn't practice our faith."

Lillback said the Founders keeping government control away from faith meant, "Each of us has a right to be who we are before God. It has been well said and it's a classic statement of religious liberty that man is not free unless he is free on the inside. We have to have the freedom to believe what we believe. That's what the First Amendment protects."

'God: He's on Both Sides of the Wall'

And that’s what Christian historian Eddie Hyatt explained Thomas Jefferson was talking about when he wrote the letter that first used the famous "wall of separation" phrase to a group of worried Baptists.

"He said that the First Amendment had erected a wall of separation that would protect them from any intrusion of the government," Hyatt stated. "In Jefferson's mind, the wall of separation was a uni-directional wall, put there to keep the government out of the church; not to keep the influence of the church out of the government."

There was no antipathy towards the Lord in all of this, Lillback insisted, saying, “But the idea of God: He’s on both sides of the wall. And He’s welcome there. And He should be.”

The Government Is Reaching Over that Wall, Bossing Around People of Faith

But today, there's been a complete flip.

Lillback said, “Those who once believed in this really high and impregnable wall of church and state, we now see the government reaching over that wall and saying, ‘but don’t preach that text of scripture.’”

Barton added, “All of a sudden the government’s regulating religious activities, which is what Jefferson said they would not do because of separation of church and state.”

Hyatt lamented, “The Founders would be so distressed to see how that statement has been turned on its head.”

As Newcombe explained, "They absolutely did not mean the separation of God and government, which is what's often being practiced today."

No One 'Under Government,' but Each One 'Under God'

Lillback encourages Americans to remember what the nation's Founders intended.

“This is a theistic government. So God was not separated from government," he insisted. "So any interpretation of the First Amendment that takes God out of government is turning the whole story on its head. Rather it was taking a formal state church out of the equation, leaving it up to each individual. But all, as we still say, 'under God.' That was the view of our Founders."

They believed a nation based on liberty could only stay free if its citizens were godly people. As Barton pointed out, believers in God have their eyes on eternity, and it makes them practice self-control.

Knowing You'll Answer to God Makes You Govern Yourself

"When you’re God-conscious, you realize, ‘ya know, I’m going to have to answer to Him for what I do,’ and it limits my bad behavior," Barton stated.

Newcombe added, “That’s something the Founders believed very strongly: that we’re going to be accountable before God.”

Hyatt said of those Founders, "They knew that they were creating a nation for a free people, but also for a virtuous people who would govern themselves from within."

You need very little police power if people, because of conscience, will police themselves.

Green Bean Control Laws?

"Self-control is what you need," Barton explained. "We can pass all the control laws we want. But unless you control the heart, you'll never control behavior. I mean, I can kill somebody with a can of green beans. What are we going to do? Pass green bean control laws if somebody does that? No. It's on the inside."

And the Founders knew to keep America true and free, they also needed the perfect law of a loving, all-wise God.

As Lillback put it, “There was a clear understanding that the government needed to have an ultimate check and balance, even beyond the people that ran it and their elections. And that is the transcendent law of God. And so that is why when we look at our Declaration of Independence, there are four references to Deity.”

Going through the Declaration, Lillback laid them out: "'We're endowed by our Creator with certain inalienable rights.' The laws of God and nature. And it tells us there's an appeal to the Supreme Judge of the world. And, finally, a dependence on the Providence of God. Four references to Deity."

Not Godless at All

But then came the US Constitution, which some say is a godless document because God isn’t mentioned in it. As soon as they were done with it, though, the Founders called for a day of Thanksgiving to God.

"They were not thinking 'let's get rid of God'," Lillback stated. "They said 'We have been given now a new Constitution, and now amendments that give us our freedoms. And where do we turn? We turn to heaven and thank God for this'."

"Now, if their intent was to get rid of God from government, boy did they miss their point," Lillback said. "Because they turned around and thanked Him for everything that they had. It shows the utter historical absurdity of 'the godless Constitution'."

Constitution's Last Words Reference Christ

And God isn’t really absent from the Constitution or its authors’ lives.

“They are not godless," Lillback insisted. "They are people who at the very end of their work said ‘In the year of our Lord, 1787.’ The very last words in the Constitution are a reference to Jesus Christ.”

He concluded, “It’s no surprise then that the ultimate motto is We are One Nation Under God.”

*This story was originally published in July 2020.
 

BlessedPeace

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happy4th-of-july.gif



Happy Birthday America! God Bless!
 

Jay Ross

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I think that this is what you are referring too.

Joshua 24:2-4: - 2 And Joshua said to all the people, “This is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says: ‘Long ago your fathers, including Terah, the father of Abraham and Nahor, lived beyond the Euphrates and worshiped other gods. 3 But I took your father Abraham from beyond the Euphrates and led him through all the land of Canaan, and I multiplied his descendants. I gave him Isaac, 4 and to Isaac I gave Jacob and Esau. I gave Esau Mount Seir to possess, but Jacob and his sons went down to Egypt.​
The pastor of the church I attend uses verse two above to justify his belief that Abraham worshiped Idols, but the problem is, in my opinion, that he has a reading comprehension issue as he includes Abraham as being in league with his father and worshiped. How ever the Book of Jasher presents another explanation as to whether Abraham worshiped idols. Abraham, it seems, spent many years with Noah and probably was with Noah when God talked with Noah. The Book of Jasher suggests that God personally entered into a special covenant with Abraham before Abraham left Ur when he was around 50 years of age. Noah was more of a father figure to Abraham than was his father, Terah.​
Sometimes we need to read the early historical records whether or not they present an accurate historical into the story of Abraham. I would suggest that you read, chew on the cud and then spit out the bones.​
I hope this helps.​
 

SavedInHim

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"Constitution's Last Words Reference Christ"​


Source:CBN
7/3/2024
Paul Strand

The 4th of July makes us think of our independence and freedoms. And recent legal battles over religious liberty in the U.S.A. raise serious questions about the freedom to worship in America. So when our Founders came up with the First Amendment, were they trying to keep the government free from religion, or religion free from government?
These days, the phrase "wall of separation between church and state" has come to mean keeping God or His believers from having a big effect on government and public life. But that’s far, far from what the Founding Fathers were thinking of when they were separating church and state.

Fear of an All-Powerful State Church Wed to the Power of the Government
They were afraid of what so many of the Old World countries had: a religion established by the state as its one true religion, that would tyrannically rule over the faith and conscience of every citizen.

As the Providence Forum’s Peter Lillback put it, “They recognized having a monolithic church was a dangerous thing.” That's because it made the king not only their physical sovereign but also their all-powerful spiritual ruler.

Before the Pilgrims fled England, Wallbuilders' David Barton recalled, “The Pilgrims’ pastor was executed because he made the statement that Jesus Christ is head of the church. And the monarch said, ‘oh no, I’m the head of the church. You’re dead.’”

Wouldn't Allow a Church of America Like the Brits Had the Church of England
Knowing of such terror and tyranny, AmericanMinute.com historian William Federer explained how the Founders felt: "Their big fear was the federal government was going to follow the blueprint of every country in Europe and pick one national denomination."
So what they meant by saying in the First Amendment "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion" was that the federal government was banned from creating – or "establishing" – a national religion with the national government wedded to it.
"They didn't want to have a national, established Church of America like you have the Church of England, forcing people to believe something that they didn't believe in," said Jerry Newcombe, host of the radio program "Vocal Point".
“What they said was, 'We don't want a state church here. Consciously, therefore, they were separating the church from government," Lillback said.

But that was strictly to protect the churches and each believer’s faith and conscience from the government.

All About Protecting Each American's Conscience and Freedom to Believe

Not only did the First Amendment say, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion," but it also said, "or prohibiting the free exercise thereof."
"What they wanted was the freedom that we have in the Bible: the rights of conscience," Barton said. "And they didn't want the state telling us how we could or couldn't practice our faith."

Lillback said the Founders keeping government control away from faith meant, "Each of us has a right to be who we are before God. It has been well said and it's a classic statement of religious liberty that man is not free unless he is free on the inside. We have to have the freedom to believe what we believe. That's what the First Amendment protects."

'God: He's on Both Sides of the Wall'

And that’s what Christian historian Eddie Hyatt explained Thomas Jefferson was talking about when he wrote the letter that first used the famous "wall of separation" phrase to a group of worried Baptists.

"He said that the First Amendment had erected a wall of separation that would protect them from any intrusion of the government," Hyatt stated. "In Jefferson's mind, the wall of separation was a uni-directional wall, put there to keep the government out of the church; not to keep the influence of the church out of the government."

There was no antipathy towards the Lord in all of this, Lillback insisted, saying, “But the idea of God: He’s on both sides of the wall. And He’s welcome there. And He should be.”

The Government Is Reaching Over that Wall, Bossing Around People of Faith

But today, there's been a complete flip.

Lillback said, “Those who once believed in this really high and impregnable wall of church and state, we now see the government reaching over that wall and saying, ‘but don’t preach that text of scripture.’”

Barton added, “All of a sudden the government’s regulating religious activities, which is what Jefferson said they would not do because of separation of church and state.”

Hyatt lamented, “The Founders would be so distressed to see how that statement has been turned on its head.”

As Newcombe explained, "They absolutely did not mean the separation of God and government, which is what's often being practiced today."

No One 'Under Government,' but Each One 'Under God'

Lillback encourages Americans to remember what the nation's Founders intended.

“This is a theistic government. So God was not separated from government," he insisted. "So any interpretation of the First Amendment that takes God out of government is turning the whole story on its head. Rather it was taking a formal state church out of the equation, leaving it up to each individual. But all, as we still say, 'under God.' That was the view of our Founders."

They believed a nation based on liberty could only stay free if its citizens were godly people. As Barton pointed out, believers in God have their eyes on eternity, and it makes them practice self-control.

Knowing You'll Answer to God Makes You Govern Yourself

"When you’re God-conscious, you realize, ‘ya know, I’m going to have to answer to Him for what I do,’ and it limits my bad behavior," Barton stated.

Newcombe added, “That’s something the Founders believed very strongly: that we’re going to be accountable before God.”

Hyatt said of those Founders, "They knew that they were creating a nation for a free people, but also for a virtuous people who would govern themselves from within."

You need very little police power if people, because of conscience, will police themselves.

Green Bean Control Laws?

"Self-control is what you need," Barton explained. "We can pass all the control laws we want. But unless you control the heart, you'll never control behavior. I mean, I can kill somebody with a can of green beans. What are we going to do? Pass green bean control laws if somebody does that? No. It's on the inside."

And the Founders knew to keep America true and free, they also needed the perfect law of a loving, all-wise God.

As Lillback put it, “There was a clear understanding that the government needed to have an ultimate check and balance, even beyond the people that ran it and their elections. And that is the transcendent law of God. And so that is why when we look at our Declaration of Independence, there are four references to Deity.”

Going through the Declaration, Lillback laid them out: "'We're endowed by our Creator with certain inalienable rights.' The laws of God and nature. And it tells us there's an appeal to the Supreme Judge of the world. And, finally, a dependence on the Providence of God. Four references to Deity."

Not Godless at All

But then came the US Constitution, which some say is a godless document because God isn’t mentioned in it. As soon as they were done with it, though, the Founders called for a day of Thanksgiving to God.

"They were not thinking 'let's get rid of God'," Lillback stated. "They said 'We have been given now a new Constitution, and now amendments that give us our freedoms. And where do we turn? We turn to heaven and thank God for this'."

"Now, if their intent was to get rid of God from government, boy did they miss their point," Lillback said. "Because they turned around and thanked Him for everything that they had. It shows the utter historical absurdity of 'the godless Constitution'."

Constitution's Last Words Reference Christ

And God isn’t really absent from the Constitution or its authors’ lives.

“They are not godless," Lillback insisted. "They are people who at the very end of their work said ‘In the year of our Lord, 1787.’ The very last words in the Constitution are a reference to Jesus Christ.”

He concluded, “It’s no surprise then that the ultimate motto is We are One Nation Under God.”

*This story was originally published in July 2020.
I'm curious. If you could wave a magic wand and make the State however you wanted it, what would it look like? What would be acceptable in your view? Would it be okay for Muslims to kneel and pray to Allah before important votes? Would it be okay for Christians to pass legislation that makes it mandatory for every vote to be preceded by a prayer in Jesus' name? Or should it be a common practice for members of Congress to kneel and pray in tongues, like we saw recently in Arizona?

I'm always curious what a person means when they say God should be allowed in government, since "God" means many things to many people. And are there any limits which should be imposed?

Not all the founders were evangelicals as we know them today. Their ideas about God were completely foreign to scripture. Freemasons believe in a Great Architect of the Universe which isn't limited to any one religion's ideas about who God is or how he should be worshipped. This God was also referred to as Providence by many of the founders. Where is this God found in scripture? Is that the God which we should have directing our politicians?
 

BlessedPeace

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I'm curious. If you could wave a magic wand and make the State however you wanted it, what would it look like? What would be acceptable in your view? Would it be okay for Muslims to kneel and pray to Allah before important votes? Would it be okay for Christians to pass legislation that makes it mandatory for every vote to be preceded by a prayer in Jesus' name? Or should it be a common practice for members of Congress to kneel and pray in tongues, like we saw recently in Arizona?

I'm always curious what a person means when they say God should be allowed in government, since "God" means many things to many people. And are there any limits which should be imposed?

Not all the founders were evangelicals as we know them today. Their ideas about God were completely foreign to scripture. Freemasons believe in a Great Architect of the Universe which isn't limited to any one religion's ideas about who God is or how he should be worshipped. This God was also referred to as Providence by many of the founders. Where is this God found in scripture? Is that the God which we should have directing our politicians?
The first amendment guarantees everyone is entitled to religious freedom of expression.Nature and nature's God is referenced in our founding documents and if one notices that is not denomination or sect specific.

Nature and nature's God.

The source of all.For all who recognize such a thing in any context.

Our government documents insure religious freedom while our government itself is Secular. Which is why there is no religious test to enter public office.
 
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Brakelite

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God is to be allowed in government. Uh huh. While a absolutely agree that Christians, God willing, can serve in government, I am deeply suspicious when anyone says God should be in government. We aren't here to build an earthly kingdom. Although history is replete with examples of the church attempting to do just that... And continue today. The dark ages were dark for a reason. And it wasn't for a lack of religion. In fact, God, at least in name, was very much involved in government with the church dominating the decisions of kings and queens throughout Europe for over a1000 years. The result was not pleasant, nor was it a benefit to anyone's spiritual well being. The church, in the name of God, became the only legal church in town.

In Revelation, through a democratic choice of the people, there will be an image made of that medieval beast, and again, the results will be spectacularly abysmal. For those who go along with this new world order, the wrath of God. For those who don't, the wrath of man. And there's a thread promoting a certain individual to save America from that?? All presidential candidates are under the control of the American oligarchs. The controlled demolition of the Democratic party as we witness it today is designed to compel voters to overwhelmingly vote right. Why is that do you think?

Why do you believe the Luciferian oligarchs in society and secret societies in control of the institutions in society, from entertainment to education, from the secret service to the church, yes, even the church, aka the deep state, want a far right government that has a Christian appearance acceptable to the majority of Americans? Where do you think they are heading? Who's really in control of those societies and the banking institutions and the finance and governance of the world? Is it not Satan? Isn't that the reason why we are not to be a part of the things of this world? Isn't that why God calls His people out of that demonic/ satanic mix? And we think it's God who is working to unite Christians to take over government?
 

PS95

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God is to be allowed in government. Uh huh. While a absolutely agree that Christians, God willing, can serve in government, I am deeply suspicious when anyone says God should be in government. We aren't here to build an earthly kingdom. Although history is replete with examples of the church attempting to do just that... And continue today. The dark ages were dark for a reason. And it wasn't for a lack of religion. In fact, God, at least in name, was very much involved in government with the church dominating the decisions of kings and queens throughout Europe for over a1000 years. The result was not pleasant, nor was it a benefit to anyone's spiritual well being. The church, in the name of God, became the only legal church in town.

In Revelation, through a democratic choice of the people, there will be an image made of that medieval beast, and again, the results will be spectacularly abysmal. For those who go along with this new world order, the wrath of God. For those who don't, the wrath of man. And there's a thread promoting a certain individual to save America from that?? All presidential candidates are under the control of the American oligarchs. The controlled demolition of the Democratic party as we witness it today is designed to compel voters to overwhelmingly vote right. Why is that do you think?

Why do you believe the Luciferian oligarchs in society and secret societies in control of the institutions in society, from entertainment to education, from the secret service to the church, yes, even the church, aka the deep state, want a far right government that has a Christian appearance acceptable to the majority of Americans? Where do you think they are heading? Who's really in control of those societies and the banking institutions and the finance and governance of the world? Is it not Satan? Isn't that the reason why we are not to be a part of the things of this world? Isn't that why God calls His people out of that demonic/ satanic mix? And we think it's God who is working to unite Christians to take over government?
oh brakelite..
this is that SDA fear again. the Constitution allows for freedom of religion which means sabbath keepers are free to keep it.
A president that upholds freedom of religion is what you WANT to vote for.
That would be TRUMP. but since you arent in the USA why post this? Vote in your country.
sheesh
 

Wrangler

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I am deeply suspicious when anyone says God should be in government. We aren't here to build an earthly kingdom.
<sigh> We are not God.

God is government, a god or order not chaos. If believers are not in government, directing it's path, then we are abdicating the system of justice to secular atheists in contradiction to Biblical principles.


3 Do you not know that we are to judge angels? How much more, then, matters pertaining to this life! 4 So if you have such cases, why do you lay them before those who have no standing in the church?
1 Corinthians 6:3-4
 

Brakelite

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oh brakelite..
this is that SDA fear again. the Constitution allows for freedom of religion which means sabbath keepers are free to keep it.
A president that upholds freedom of religion is what you WANT to vote for.
That would be TRUMP. but since you arent in the USA why post this? Vote in your country.
sheesh
History repeats. It isn't about fear. It's prophecy. And your constitution, as much as I admire and respect it, will not stand against the majority will of a nation determined, through fear of God's judgement, dispatch the Constitution to the dust bin. Remember 9/11? What did fear do then? It drove people to church, albeit temporarily, and the government to formulate societal restrictions in the name of peace and safety. Now you are among the most surveilled societies on earth. Your so called liberties are being eroded every day, now imagine how that will be with a so called Christian government and the end time disasters, was, earthquakes, storms, civil violence, maybe civil war, all on steroids. Religious liberty? Read Revelation 13 and talk to me about what you read there.

My distance from your country certainly handicaps me from fully understanding the nuances and emotions that exist in American society, particularly over the last 8 years or so. But I do have a deep appreciation of your system of governance, and love that you have a constitution and Bill of rights. They are unique, they are what made America the land of freedom and opportunity it became. But, it isn't a guarantee. If Christians can claim God's laws are no longer relevant, without any biblical reference to sustain such a claim, how secure then do you think legislation made by fallible sinful men?
 

PS95

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History repeats. It isn't about fear. It's prophecy.
Nope. Sorry. That is merely how SDA church interprets it. In actuality, you are fighting against the very idea of acknowleging that you DO have every right to go to church on Saturday by opposing project 25, including your own SDA member, Ben Carson.
The mere idea that SDA's wont be allowed to go to church on saturday based on proj 25 proves how ridiculous that SDA teaching is. It says the OPPOSITE!
If we were all as paranoid as that teaching is- the Sunday sabbath people would also be screaming about proj 25-- like this.. :

"IT says we are to have off or paid extra for having to work on Sunday-- that proves that they are going to take Sunday worship away from us!!"
Do you see how nuts that is? That's what you are doing. You hear the direct opposite of what it says. WHy do you do that/ Must everything be a trick?!
not to mention SDA's arent the only once who attend Saturday church- Jews, 7th day baptists, Messianics..probably others too. Why do you think it would only affect SDA?

And aside from that- I didnt see anything else distinctly "christian" in Proj 25 amendments- what I saw was basic common sense for the USA. I've asked you what else..

And your constitution, as much as I admire and respect it, will not stand against the majority will of a nation determined, through fear of God's judgement, dispatch the Constitution to the dust bin. Remember 9/11? What did fear do then? It drove people to church, albeit temporarily, and the government to formulate societal restrictions in the name of peace and safety. Now you are among the most surveilled societies on earth. Your so called liberties are being eroded every day, now imagine how that will be with a so called Christian government and the end time disasters, was, earthquakes, storms, civil violence, maybe civil war, all on steroids. Religious liberty? Read Revelation 13 and talk to me about what you read there.
which is precisely why we want to vote for people who respect the Constitution and not use it as toilet paper as the left does. I'm glad you respect it. George Bush's father was the one who signed us into this mess with the UN new world order. take note of Trump who said that Bush knew about 911 and they HATE him for that.


it's crazy to me how people act like they know what they are talking about when they trash the very people and things who are on their side.- because the Tv or a church with a history of failed prophecies tells them so.
My distance from your country certainly handicaps me from fully understanding the nuances and emotions that exist in American society, particularly over the last 8 years or so. But I do have a deep appreciation of your system of governance, and love that you have a constitution and Bill of rights. They are unique, they are what made America the land of freedom and opportunity it became. But, it isn't a guarantee. If Christians can claim God's laws are no longer relevant, without any biblical reference to sustain such a claim, how secure then do you think legislation made by fallible sinful men?
I agree. It does but it doesnt stop you from fear mongering the people here on how to vote!

your last sentence is just SDA talk. I have not heard you argue Hebrews 4, but I have heard the other baseless arguments. If you could only see. You guys are like Judaizers. such a shame! It is you who does not understand the scriptures on this. - which is the very reason for 8 out of 10 of SDA posts- fear. unfounded fear. so sad to me.
I am not interested in further discussion over this on here. Been there- done that.
You just really ought to read Hebrews 4 combined with all of the other scriptures Christians have pointed out to you on sabbath & foods--and what we have discussed in Pms and PRAY. Pray pray pray for God to help open your eyes to His freedoms in Christ. I grew up being taught terribly mistaken things - it happens- but Christ set me free and when He shows you - you will know & never doubt again because he will teach you how to deal with it! He is amazing..!

Obey Commandments- believe in Jesus Christ and love one another.- LOVE fulfills the LAW- It is not written on stone tablets- it is written on our hearts! ask God to write His laws on YOUR heart! Love will cast out all fear.

Take care, brakelight. You know I am your friend. I hope you are still mine. Pm me if you want
 

Brakelite

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<sigh> We are not God.

God is government, a god or order not chaos. If believers are not in government, directing it's path, then we are abdicating the system of justice to secular atheists in contradiction to Biblical principles.


3 Do you not know that we are to judge angels? How much more, then, matters pertaining to this life! 4 So if you have such cases, why do you lay them before those who have no standing in the church?
1 Corinthians 6:3-4
God is the King of His kingdom. His kingdom is not of this world. His kingdom is within you. Let Him rule there, and let those of this world rule their own.
 
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Brakelite

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It says the OPPOSITE!
I know what it says, my reading comprehension skills are fairly good, so I agree with you. What I am saying is that while for now those who are promoting it respect religious liberty, this will, according to prophecy, not always be the case. Babylon the Great is a global deception. It's a global apostate union of church and state. Coming to the town where you live .
Why do you think it would only affect SDA?
I don't. But you haven't considered the majority. Sunday is being set as a default day for worship and rest. A religiously motivated day to be enforced on everyone. The exceptions will need to apply for an exemption. Why should I have to apply for an exemption from the government to obey the commandments of God rather than a commandment of man? Do you see where this is leading? No.
 
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Brakelite

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all of the other scriptures Christians have pointed out to you on sabbath & foods
God gave the Sabbath to man because He wanted to be a nuisance, I know. It was a burden and a handicap for people to spend time with their Creator when they could be doing other stuff right? He wants us to suffer and be miserable so He gave us His laws that we could be always under bondage, but hey! We are now free right? No longer obliged to obey the letter of the law, yet we will petition the government and the governors of the states to nail the ten commandments back on the classroom walls, and above the judges desk on the courtroom.
As for diet, yeah. Who wants to be healthy anyway. Healthy food is for freaks and vegans and hippies. God wants us to be free to eat anything we like. Never mind that most things we like make us sick and die. That's okay, like I said above, God wants us to be miserable and suffering from heart disease, chronic blood disorders, organ failure and brain fade. It tastes good, therefore it must be God's will.
Sorry, but I can't help be sarcastic. The arguments against the law and health are an insult to God's character, and quite frankly self defeating. Without the law there is no sin. So why didn't Jesus cancel the law before He had to die?
 
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Brakelite

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That is merely how SDA church interprets it.
No-one is interpreting PROJECT 2025. We interpret prophecy in a manner that makes biblical sense and against which there is no real argument. Do you know why we interpret the second beast of Revelation 13, the false prophet as apostate American protestantism?
 
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PS95

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No-one is interpreting PROJECT 2025. We interpret prophecy in a manner that makes biblical sense and against which there is no real argument. Do you know why we interpret the second beast of Revelation 13, the false prophet as apostate American protestantism?
You certainly are interpreting project 25 but I should have said misinterpreting it. It say the opposite.
As for biblical prophecy interpreting- no offense, but your leaders dont have a good track record with predicting.
But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation, for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.
God gave the Sabbath to man because He wanted to be a nuisance, I know. It was a burden and a handicap for people to spend time with their Creator when they could be doing other stuff right? He wants us to suffer and be miserable so He gave us His laws that we could be always under bondage, but hey! We are now free right? No longer obliged to obey the letter of the law, yet we will petition the government and the governors of the states to nail the ten commandments back on the classroom walls, and above the judges desk on the courtroom.
I never said any of that nonsense. this is pretty lame. I told you that I honor the Sabbath just as the bible says to. Hebrews 4
As for diet, yeah. Who wants to be healthy anyway. Healthy food is for freaks and vegans and hippies. God wants us to be free to eat anything we like. Never mind that most things we like make us sick and die. That's okay, like I said above, God wants us to be miserable and suffering from heart disease, chronic blood disorders, organ failure and brain fade. It tastes good, therefore it must be God's will.
Sorry, but I can't help be sarcastic. The arguments against the law and health are an insult to God's character, and quite frankly self defeating. Without the law there is no sin. So why didn't Jesus cancel the law before He had to die?
Who said any of that?
I've also told you that I have always had a healthy diet. I dont need a church to tell me what to eat. God gave me a brain.You are just resorting to making things up to argue. I'm not playin. take care.