We’ve been there and done that, Stan. So the questions of what ‘god-breathed’ may mean exactly and which Scriptures 2 Timothy possibly could have referred to in a time when there wasn’t a NT yet aside: surely you see that there is a difference between being "useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness" and being the final authority. Do you deny that it is God who has final authority? Do you think God can be confined within the pages of a book or even that the book is God? Did you maybe make yourself an image here, even though the very book you’ve made into an image tells you not to make yourself an image?StanJ said:
Is our Bible of 66 Books, the inerrant Word of God?
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When Jesus Christ, God The Son, said "It is written", He set His seal in the final authority of the written Word of God.junobet said:
No one is denying that God is the final authority. But you and others are making a division between authority in God and authority in the written Word of God.
No one is saying God is confined within the pages of the Bible. But the Bible is His written Word and inspired by Him and given to the believers to live by. And thus is the final authority.
No one is saying the Bible is God. I am saying I give the Bible the place God gives it, as His written Word, and final authority for the believer. I suppose you think David worshipped the Scriptures. Read (Ps.119). Did David make an idol when he wrote that?
Stranger
Too much knowledge can be a burden as I know how human beings have messed with God's word either through intention or lack of knowledge. Even the early manuscripts we have disagree with one another at times. Never the less, the Spirit of God is and so even errors can speak the truth to those listen to its teachings.StanJ said:
Many false teachers will come and say they listen to the Spirit but their lie will only be discerned by those that actually listen to the Spirit. The bible appears to be more concrete than the Spirit but it can misused just like any other tool while the Spirit cannot be so abused.
You should already know the answers to each of these questions.Stranger said:
1) I was speaking knowledge of how our English translations came to be; including their translation from "early" manuscripts. That knowledge may well come from God and if so it is used to test the heart of those that have such knowledge. God may also have other reasons for allowing such errors.
2) The Spirit can and will interpret in such a way that they speak truth. I suspicion there may be some errors that are not open to be translated to the truth.
2 Tim 3:16 is not speaking of modern English translations and I have knowledge of scribal errors and mistranslations that have crept into Scripture since then. The NIV tells of some as do other translations.Stranger said:
I also believe the Spirit will lead many to the truth anyways.
1Co_8:1 Now as touching things offered unto idols, we know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge puffeth up, but charity edifieth.
Unti lyou come to the end of yourself, until you come to the realisation that you know nothing, God cant teach you. a bit the the karate student who is being taught by his master, who gives him a glass, and proceeds to fill it with water and it over flows, and teh student exclaims ,: what did you do that for", and teh teacher turns teh glass upside down and empties it, and says, when you come to like like this glass, empty of yourself, than i can teach you....
So 2 Timothy cannot apply to the Bible we have? Does Christ words "it is written" apply to the Scripture in His day, which is our Old Testament?kerwin said:
So you don't believe the Bible you have is inspired by God? Why believe any of it if it is full of errors and mistranslations.
Stranger
Exactly unless you belive God is a lar and a deciever and doesnt have the truth that is why jesus sent us who recive Him. teh Holy Spirit
So he can teach us teh truth, he wasnt sent to teach anyone the "bbile"
If God revealed to one man (or Church) that is led by the Holy Spirit that scripture says one must be baptized to be saved and he revealed to another man (or Church) that baptism doesn't save then to which man (or Church) did God reveal His Truth to? It would appear on the surface that He is contradicting himself. As we know only one can be right in their interpretation of his "written word". How do we know who is right?StanJ said:
There are a number of mistranslated words but they tend to be more conceal certain matters than outright fabrications. Sometimes a fabrication occurs when a translator or translators are so convinced they are right that they do so despite evidence that that particular translation is wrong. That is why I look at the original language as much as I can. Even then there are disagreements between different text types. There is even one case that some believe is translated from a fraudulent manuscript though I believe that claim is controversial.Stranger said:
In those cases when there is no disagreement among the ancient manuscripts one can feel more confident that no changes have occurred by even then translating from one language to another is difficult even when the translator has no bias. A scribes job is easier since they merely copy what is already written and still there are different versions of Scripture in the original language.
It is possible Paul was speaking of both versions that were popular at that time even though they disagreed at places but then he also believed the Spirit teaches.
Do Christ's words 'It is written' apply to the Old Testament?kerwin said:
If you are not a translator, what good does the original languages do you? You are still trusting anothers translation. Arn't you? And, you are still translationg from copies, not the originals. What now? Who do you believe?
Stranger
So which interpretation do you choose?Stranger said:
1. Baptism saves and is necessary for salvation?
2. Baptism doesn't save you. It is a public display of you accepting Jesus?
As to water salvation, I don't believe it is necessary for one to be 'saved' as to his initial salvation or being born-again. I do believe it is necessary for ones salvation as pertaining to your walk with Christ in this world.tom55 said:
In other words there are three aspects of salvation. 1. Saved from penalty of sin. 2. Saved from power of sin. 3. Saved from the presence of sin.
Stranger
I don't understand what you are saying. You don't believe it is necessary for one to be saved but you do believe it is necessary for ones salvation!!Stranger said:
My point is both interpretations can't be right.
Both are taught by Churches that believe they are led by the Holy Spirit.
Your statement, "You check the Scriptures against what is being said" was done by both Churches in my scenario and they both believe they are right. Only one can be right.
According to you and others we have no way of knowing who is right. No one has authority, the Truth or is right because they both 'checked scripture' and came up with a different interpretation. Your statement is a circular argument, not logical or scriptural.
I didn't give you two interpretations. I gave you one. You ignored it for your own purpose.tom55 said:
No, according to you, me and others have no way of knowing who is right. You need to study the Scriptures yourself and decide which church is right. Are you afraid to do that?
There is nothing circular about it. You have the Bible. You have the Holy Spirit. Give it some thought. Scriptures are your authority.
Stranger
If we have no way of knowing who is right then, according to your statement, we have no way of knowing the Truth. I don't think God is hiding The Truth from us.Stranger said:
All Scripture is inspired by God and is profitable to teach, reprove, correct and instruct in justice so that the man of God may be perfect, furnished to every good work. But scripture (God) gives no list of Scriptures nor any method for discerning which Scripture is inspired by Him. Who has the authority to properly instruct, reprove, correct and what scripture was inspired? Man doe, with the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.
Do I think I understand what I read? "How can I, unless some man (someone) shows me" (Acts 8:30-31).
Inspiration or interpretation can only be known upon some authority sent from God to man. I think you would agree the only possible competent authority would be either Christ or his Apostles or the successors of the Apostles. Who are the successors of the Apostles? The Church leaders who were appointed by the Apostles and then those men that were appointed by them and so on and so on (Apostolic Succession).
It is a circular argument because you are saying scripture is true because scripture says it is true. Someone (man) has to properly decide what scripture is inspired and interpret that scripture since scripture can not interpret itself and reveal it's own truth. You yourself have interpreted scripture to your own truth. Are you that someone that is spoken of in Acts 8?
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