While it is true that all are in need of being saved, is it really true that none can stop sinning. While all sin is bad, is it true that a random thought, a flash in my mind is as bad as contemplating or dwelling on it? Or the latter as bad as committing the act? And what about people that have, possibly from birth, lived and died with control of their will? The innocent (babies), the insane, the mentally challenged?So while it is true that all fall short of God's Glory and ALL are in need of being saved, we all need Jesus (even Enoch, Elijah, Moses and Mary need Jesus), think there is some question how far short any particular individual falls. Obviously some fall furhter than others. No worries, as you go on to speak of people seeking God, which excludes any less black/white areas spoken of here.
It seems that even while truly seeking God out on this earth we can’t stop sinning. Well then, that brings up a startling problem. Sin seems to be a given, and if it is a given or necessity of life, then so must salvation be a necessity.
There are several ways we can say something is necessary. Normally when we say something is necessary, it is because without it, something else could not be, would not exist.In the case of sin, we may need to define what is meant when we say sin, but it is unclear to me what needs sin. You appear to be suggesting life needs sin. Yet Jesus lived and He lived without sinning. So clearly the life of a man does not need sin. Adam and Eve before the fall lived without sin.And saying something is a fact is not speaking to whether it causes something else, has purpose, is necessary. It is simply stating a fact. Adam and Eve failed to obey God. They fell. These are facts expressed in the creation story. We cannot dispute facts. So either we accept that they fell, which means before the fall everything was "Good" as God said or not. If not, then the whole case breaks down on an even higher level as it means God created evil, the world was not all Good originally. So then why believe Him that when He says He will restore the world to it's former state (even better actually).If we want to imagine what if Adam and Eve did not fall, I guess we could spend a lot time on this. But as we do not except that as factual, we would merely be expressing hypothetical and it seems pointless to the end you seem to seek in this thread.Was it necessary that Adam fall? Only if one believes man has no free-will. For if it was necessary, then Adam had no choice.God said if you do this (sin) then you will die. The death spoken of cannot mean just physical as the consequences of that sin went much further. They no longer "walked" with God. Obviously God created man to "walk with", to know Him. So the only way man can be happy is to serve the purpose for which he is made. Not only do Adam and Eve's body begin to die and they eventually experience death, but they immediately experience a separation from God, a spiritual death.That physical death and separation from God extends to not just Adam and Eve but the entire human race.
For some reason a lot of people think that Adam and Eve would have lived forever if they did not sin (Did they start the concept of time?). I’m not sure where this concept comes from but I feel like it is the common thought today.
Yes, it is traditional thought to say that and we have reason to believe this in that God, Jesus said if we rise again in Him, our new bodies will not be corruptible, it will last forever. He was the first to be Restored with such a body, so He shows us it can be done. So if we believe it is possible for God to do this for us, am not sure why we should think it impossible that God could have created Adam and Eve this way.
Well, God created humans with the capacity for sin if nothing else.
If by capacity you mean man can choose for or against God, then yes that much is true. God made man with a free-will. If you mean by "capacity" that God created something in Adam that was a defect, less than perfect, a moral evil (sin) then we suggest a Being that is ALL Good cannot do that. God would be creating Evil and that cannot be a Good thing or something an ALL GOOD Being would do.
But if Adam and Eve were to live forever, don’t you think that one day they would eventually say, “You know what, I’ve lived for a ridiculous amount of time, and it’s been good, but I want to see what happens when I eat of that fruit over there that I havn’t eaten.” It seems to me that if Adam and Eve were to live forever that they were going to eventually eat of the forbidden fruit.
Actually until they (and the human race) begin to die after the Fall, there is nothing in the story to indicate a passage of time before the Fall, at least not in any sense that we can grasp as meaningful. So it could have been two days, or thousands of years for all we know. Besides, as we already stated we know God can give us bodies to last forever, He says He can. And we should not forget that they had help in the form of Satan tricking Eve. One could suggest that God allowed Satan to do this, that it was inevitable Satan would try to do it. But that more to do with what Satan is than who God is. In any case, if Adam is really free to choose to listen to Eve and make up his own mind, then we cannot conclude his choice was inevitable. (Even when that choice is known by God before He made Adam.
In Genesis there is no sense of Adam and Eve growing in relationship to God, they don’t seem to worship him or like him more than they did in the beginning. So it doesn’t seem like they would some how grow in knowledge and learn that God is always right.
Again, one that “walks with God” is as close as the Bible indicates that a man can get to God. It means to know Him fully (not stroll in the park). Am not sure how Adam and Eve could have gotten any closer than that. It does go to show how GREAT a Fall it was to go from that state to being banished from His presence/knowing Him that well.
So I think that no matter what Adam and Eve would have eaten the fruit some day. It seems inevitable.
It is a fact they did, so really whether it was inevitable or not is irrelevant to our present state. But, again, if we say it was inevitable, then Adam was not really free to choose. It hardly seems right to punish an entire race for an act that was not a free choice. Such a God we cannot abide.
But that act brings sin into the world, so if that act is inevitable so is sin, and if sin is then so must be salvation, and if salvation is inevitable then it really isn’t a gift, it’s God’s obligation to his creation.
We skip the rehash on whether sin is inevitable. We should first note that the sin is the result of a free choice, a morally wrong choice. It is the action of rational created beings (angels and men) that resulted in the Fall of both, not an action of God. The act is an offense against God. When we offend another, as our own free action, we obligate ourselves to both apologize for and somehow make it right. There is a twist here in that the relative status between us and the person we offend is directly proportional to what it will take to correct that offense. If you don’t believe me, slap your brother, then your mother and tell me which you would get in more trouble for. With God being Infinite, the result of our sin is our inability to correct that. It would take more than we have to give. So in that sense, if mankind was to be saved (restored to His Good Grace – walk in the Garden again, Heaven…etc), you are correct that it would be necessary for God to intervene on our behalf. So in that sense the Fall of Man made it necessary for God to do something to save us, IF we are to be saved. So if we are to be saved, we cannot do it ourselves. God has to help us do this, which means He has to give us something, which means it is a gift.God is Love and clearly He loves His Creation, all of it including mankind. The next question goes to the purpose of Creation. Why does God create? The quick response usually comes for His Glory, and we say yes, but what does that mean? Personally like the idea of His Love and wanting to share all His Love with us. He Created this wonderful universe for us ALL, for the Love of us all and that we would know and share in it with Him. So if by obligated, you mean that we could reason that God’s Love for us would mean that in foreseeing this act of Adam, He still Created Man and already had in mind our rescue before He made anything, then we agree.If by obligated, you mean Adam made God do something we would have to object. As the Creator, surely He cannot be subject to His Creation. Another thought to ponder, knowing Adam would do this, God made Man anyway. How wonderful is that Love!!! So as He did create, and said it was Good to do so, we can only conclude this is the best possible universe God could have made for us and us having free-will, otherwise it would be made some other way (no sin for example).
Now going back to this idea of sins that we do that aren’t premeditated, if we didn’t need those sins forgiven then I think I’d be okay with all of this, but we need those sins forgiven even though we commit those when we are at our best.
All sin must be forgiven and God has given us a means to make this possible. You do touch here on an area where the Catholic view of sins differs and is more agreeable to me. But I digress. If these issues with sin trouble you, then this is perhaps another thread we should start.
We are born into a fallen world. I remember sinning when I was very young, and maybe those aren’t true sins, but growing up in that pattern has in a way forced me to sin when I knew it was a sin. I don’t think there is a way for us not to sin. We are broken and fallen, but it seems that we are created that way to me. And if we are created that way then it is God’s obligation to give us salvation.
It is a fallen world. But the Creation story indicates that it is fallen by our own fault, not God’s. He did not “make it” that way, for such a world is not and could not in the beginning be called “Good”. Catholics hold that we are born with the guilt, a stain from that fall, that one consequence of the fall is our soul and body are no longer in peace/harmony. We are at war internally between the desires of our bodies set against what our soul knows to be right. Jesus did say “Be Holy” as He is Holy, so it must be possible in this life to attain that state or else He would not have told us to try. Catholics believe we can attain such a state, yet as you indicate we do not stay that way for very long. Some longer than others, but most for not very long at all. Yet Jesus still calls us to try and try we should! As a Catholic we are taught how this is to be, and it is something we must repeatedly do the rest of our lives.So while it may be true that all of us sin, there is something we can do about it when it happens.
Or to phrase it another way. God and Jesus created the world with the crucifixion plan already thought of and ready to implement, the Bible tells us that. So our all knowing God knew we would fall before he made us. He already devised a way to save us before we were made. Seems like our fall was inevitable, no?
We must differentiate between God’s view and ours. God is external to Creation and time is a part of creation. Outside of creation, God views all of history, from the beginning, past, present, future as if it is all NOW for Him. His knowing something stems from that view, not from every action in the universe being a non-contingency. He knows everything, whether the cause is contingent (Adam’s free choice) or non-contingent (step off cliff you will fall or 2+2=4). His knowing it does make a contingent event non-contingent, for either there are possibilities or not. Either Adam had a choice, free-will or he does not.So if by inevitable, you mean God knew it would happen, we must agree. If by inevitable you mean Adam does not have a choice, we disagree.
And if it is a necessity to have sin so that we can see God then Sin is necessary and so too would salvation be a necessity and not some gracious gift.
As stated earlier, People have known God as we can “see” Him in Heaven before and after there was sin in this world. So your premise here falls, is false, which makes the conclusion – that salvation is not a gift – false.
What do you think about this? This is not an attack on God or a rant from a bitter atheist, it is an attempt to better understand salvation so please respond respectfully and thoughtfully. Thank you.
And thank you, hope you feel I tried to do just that.