Hi everyone,
I took this thread from another community I belonged to. The person whose comments are in red was stating their belief in dispensationalism (the belief that God deals separately with the church and Isreal and never simultaneously) as proof of a pre-tribulational rapture. This includes my responses (in black).
The fact that the Lord has gone to prepare a place for us and has had 2000 years to do so, would tell me that the church will enjoy that place for a while, before we come back with the Lord at Armageddon, or else why would the Lord bother?
It is my personal opinion that heaven will always be our home. Because we return w/ Christ at Armageddon, doesn't mean we'll stay here. I believe we will go back and forth from earth to heaven almost continuously or at God's command during the millenium, in the blink of an eye, so to speak!
The same with Rev. 4:1, which is used as a possible rapture verse, because the church is never mentioned again until Rev. 22:16. Don't you think it's kind of odd that the church was mentioned at least 130 times through Rev. 3:22 and then nary a mention again?
While the word "church" isn't used many synonyms for it are. I will explain in detail shortly.
Why would the Lord use this particular word all through the N/T and then all of a sudden stop using that particular word and start referring to the church as saints, etc. Isn't it possible that the reason for the glaring omission of the word "church" is, that maybe the church is gone up yonder?
The highlighted section above is what I will concentrate on. Was the word church the only term used in the NT to describe us? I will show you that it wasn't. This will probably be long as I will be posting several scriptures but not all of them. Some I will just give the reference to.
The terms: elect, election, elect's and elected are all used to describe the church. One of these terms is used once to describe angels. Elect is used twice in each of Matt. & Mark's record of the Olivet Discourse. According to Strong's it is also used 14 other times to describe the church in general or an individual believer. Lk. 18:7, Rom. 8:33, 9:11, 11:5,7,28, Col. 3:12, Tit. 1:1, 1 Peter 5:13. 2 John 1,13, 1 Thess. 1:4 and 2 Peter 1:10. The best one is 1 Peter 1:1-2 which gives us a definition:
Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To God's elect, strangers in the world, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia, who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and sprinkling by his blood:...
Another term used to describe the church is chosen. Mark 13:20 uses both chosen and elect:
If the Lord had not cut short those days, no one would survive. But for the sake of the elect, whom he has chosen, he has shortened them.
It also is used 14 other times: Matt. 20:16, 22:14, John 13:8, 15:16,19, Rom. 16:13, 1 Cor. 1:27-28, Eph. 1:4, 2 Thess. 2:13, James 2:5, 1 Peter 2:4,9, and Rev. 17:14. Let's compare Rev. 17:14 with Matt. 20:16:
Rev. 17:14 - They will make war against the Lamb, but the Lamb will overcome them because he is Lord of lords and King of kings--and with him will be his called, chosen and faithful followers."
Matt. 20:16 - So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen
This person also made the true statement that the word church isn't mentioned after Rev. 3:22, until Rev. 22:16: "I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star."
I think it is quite apt and implies the conclusion that the church is spoken of throughout the book. It seems to me to be saying that the whole book is for the church and is not meant for the latter day jewish remnant. All the other times the word church is used in Revelations they are speaking of seven literal churches in John's day, not the church in general. But that does not mean the church isn't in Revelations as I will prove.
Now we come to an interesting term that dispensationalists like to say speaks of the jews and that is the word saints. Here are some interesting facts. This word is used in the much larger section of the bible called the OT only 35 times, while in the much shorter NT it is used prior to Revelations 47 times, 46 of those referring to individual christian believers and/or the church. To me this is enough evidence to conclude that the term used in Revelations 13 times also refers to the church seeing as how it is used more to describe it then it was to describe the jews. The majority of the references in Revelations are undeniably church related.
Then we have some phrases that are used to describe what can only be the church like, the testimony. Rev. 6:9, 12:11,17, 15:5 and 19:10. Rev. 19:10 says: ...I am a fellow servant with you and with your brothers who hold to the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy."
It is also interesting to note that the Gospel of John, who is supposed by many biblical historians to be the same as the author of Revelations, refers to the testimony of believers 4 times. This is the only one of the gospels to use it in this manner. Is this a coincidence? I think not. John 3:32-33, 5:34 and 21:24.
Here are some other phrases: "washed in the blood". Only christians as members of the church claim the blood of Christ as our salvation.
Rev. 1:5 - and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood
Rev. 7:14 - I answered, "Sir, you know." And he said, "These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
"
Wipe away all tears"
Rev. 7:17 echoes the promise of Is. 25:8 - he will swallow up death forever. The Sovereign LORD will wipe away the tears from all faces; he will remove the disgrace of his people from all the earth. The LORD has spoken.
Here's a couple of interesting thoughts. One this verse seems to distinguish a difference between "all faces" (gentiles included ??) and the disgrace of "His people". Ponder this thought. Is is possible that the OT prophets having no knowledge of the future church, that when they saw people of God in the future assumed them to be jews; but isn't it possible that some of the time it was the church instead?
Rev. 12:10 can only be talking about the church and the same w/ vs. 17 seeing as the 144,000 are sealed and protected and believing Israel (the woman) is in hiding for 3 1/2 yrs.
"The Book of Life"
- Rev. 13:8 -
All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast--all whose names have not been written in the book of life belonging to the Lamb that was slain from the creation of the world.
To me this implies that there will be people here at the same time whose names are in the book of life which are obviously members of the church. The previous verse 7 is the fulfillment of Dan. 7:21. The saints, as proved earlier, are the church.
Rev. 13:7 - He was given power to make war against the saints and to conquer them. And he was given authority over every tribe, people, language and nation.
Dan. 7:21 - As I watched, this horn was waging war against the saints and defeating them
"Patient endurance and faithfulness"
are another quality of the church. Rom. 5:3, 12:12, Heb. 6:12, 2 Thess. 1:4, James 1:3, 5:10, Rev. 13:10, 14:12.
Rev.13:10 - If anyone is to go into captivity, into captivity he will go. If anyone is to be killed with the sword, with the sword he will be killed. This calls for patient endurance and faithfulness on the part of the saints.
James 5:10-11: Brothers, as an example of patience in the face of suffering, take the prophets who spoke in the name of the Lord. As you know, we consider blessed those who have persevered. You have heard of Job's perseverance and have seen what the Lord finally brought about. The Lord is full of compassion and mercy.
There is a similarity between the ordeal of Job and what the church will go through during the short time of the great trib.
Next let's compare the phrase "my people" in Rev. 18:4 with 2 Cor. 6:16-17.
Rev. 18:4 - Then I heard another voice from heaven say: "Come out of her, my people, so that you will not share in her sins, so that you will not receive any of her plagues;
2 Cor. 6:16-17 - What agreement is there between the temple of God and idols? For we are the temple of the living God. As God has said: "I will live with them and walk among them, and I will be their God, and they will be my people." "Therefore come out from them and be separate, says the Lord. Touch no unclean thing, and I will receive you."
Pre-trib rapture believers usually take all the "thief " verses and equate them to a signless, imminent rapture ignoring 1 Thess. 5:4, but then you have Rev. 16:15 happening well within the midst of the 70th week. "Behold, I come like a thief! Blessed is he who stays awake and keeps his clothes with him, so that he may not go naked and be shamefully exposed."
Another problem arises for them in the midst of the 70th week with the Harvest of the Good, Rev. 14:14-16 immediately followed by the Harvest of the Evil in vss. 17-20.As you can see the church is all over the Book of Revelations and is not mysteriously missing as this person implied. One must not over emphasize a word like "church" and ignore all the other adjectives in the bible that describes us.
I took this thread from another community I belonged to. The person whose comments are in red was stating their belief in dispensationalism (the belief that God deals separately with the church and Isreal and never simultaneously) as proof of a pre-tribulational rapture. This includes my responses (in black).
The fact that the Lord has gone to prepare a place for us and has had 2000 years to do so, would tell me that the church will enjoy that place for a while, before we come back with the Lord at Armageddon, or else why would the Lord bother?
It is my personal opinion that heaven will always be our home. Because we return w/ Christ at Armageddon, doesn't mean we'll stay here. I believe we will go back and forth from earth to heaven almost continuously or at God's command during the millenium, in the blink of an eye, so to speak!
The same with Rev. 4:1, which is used as a possible rapture verse, because the church is never mentioned again until Rev. 22:16. Don't you think it's kind of odd that the church was mentioned at least 130 times through Rev. 3:22 and then nary a mention again?
While the word "church" isn't used many synonyms for it are. I will explain in detail shortly.
Why would the Lord use this particular word all through the N/T and then all of a sudden stop using that particular word and start referring to the church as saints, etc. Isn't it possible that the reason for the glaring omission of the word "church" is, that maybe the church is gone up yonder?
The highlighted section above is what I will concentrate on. Was the word church the only term used in the NT to describe us? I will show you that it wasn't. This will probably be long as I will be posting several scriptures but not all of them. Some I will just give the reference to.
The terms: elect, election, elect's and elected are all used to describe the church. One of these terms is used once to describe angels. Elect is used twice in each of Matt. & Mark's record of the Olivet Discourse. According to Strong's it is also used 14 other times to describe the church in general or an individual believer. Lk. 18:7, Rom. 8:33, 9:11, 11:5,7,28, Col. 3:12, Tit. 1:1, 1 Peter 5:13. 2 John 1,13, 1 Thess. 1:4 and 2 Peter 1:10. The best one is 1 Peter 1:1-2 which gives us a definition:
Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To God's elect, strangers in the world, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia, who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and sprinkling by his blood:...
Another term used to describe the church is chosen. Mark 13:20 uses both chosen and elect:
If the Lord had not cut short those days, no one would survive. But for the sake of the elect, whom he has chosen, he has shortened them.
It also is used 14 other times: Matt. 20:16, 22:14, John 13:8, 15:16,19, Rom. 16:13, 1 Cor. 1:27-28, Eph. 1:4, 2 Thess. 2:13, James 2:5, 1 Peter 2:4,9, and Rev. 17:14. Let's compare Rev. 17:14 with Matt. 20:16:
Rev. 17:14 - They will make war against the Lamb, but the Lamb will overcome them because he is Lord of lords and King of kings--and with him will be his called, chosen and faithful followers."
Matt. 20:16 - So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen
This person also made the true statement that the word church isn't mentioned after Rev. 3:22, until Rev. 22:16: "I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star."
I think it is quite apt and implies the conclusion that the church is spoken of throughout the book. It seems to me to be saying that the whole book is for the church and is not meant for the latter day jewish remnant. All the other times the word church is used in Revelations they are speaking of seven literal churches in John's day, not the church in general. But that does not mean the church isn't in Revelations as I will prove.
Now we come to an interesting term that dispensationalists like to say speaks of the jews and that is the word saints. Here are some interesting facts. This word is used in the much larger section of the bible called the OT only 35 times, while in the much shorter NT it is used prior to Revelations 47 times, 46 of those referring to individual christian believers and/or the church. To me this is enough evidence to conclude that the term used in Revelations 13 times also refers to the church seeing as how it is used more to describe it then it was to describe the jews. The majority of the references in Revelations are undeniably church related.
Then we have some phrases that are used to describe what can only be the church like, the testimony. Rev. 6:9, 12:11,17, 15:5 and 19:10. Rev. 19:10 says: ...I am a fellow servant with you and with your brothers who hold to the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy."
It is also interesting to note that the Gospel of John, who is supposed by many biblical historians to be the same as the author of Revelations, refers to the testimony of believers 4 times. This is the only one of the gospels to use it in this manner. Is this a coincidence? I think not. John 3:32-33, 5:34 and 21:24.
Here are some other phrases: "washed in the blood". Only christians as members of the church claim the blood of Christ as our salvation.
Rev. 1:5 - and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood
Rev. 7:14 - I answered, "Sir, you know." And he said, "These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
"
Wipe away all tears"
Rev. 7:17 echoes the promise of Is. 25:8 - he will swallow up death forever. The Sovereign LORD will wipe away the tears from all faces; he will remove the disgrace of his people from all the earth. The LORD has spoken.
Here's a couple of interesting thoughts. One this verse seems to distinguish a difference between "all faces" (gentiles included ??) and the disgrace of "His people". Ponder this thought. Is is possible that the OT prophets having no knowledge of the future church, that when they saw people of God in the future assumed them to be jews; but isn't it possible that some of the time it was the church instead?
Rev. 12:10 can only be talking about the church and the same w/ vs. 17 seeing as the 144,000 are sealed and protected and believing Israel (the woman) is in hiding for 3 1/2 yrs.
"The Book of Life"
- Rev. 13:8 -
All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast--all whose names have not been written in the book of life belonging to the Lamb that was slain from the creation of the world.
To me this implies that there will be people here at the same time whose names are in the book of life which are obviously members of the church. The previous verse 7 is the fulfillment of Dan. 7:21. The saints, as proved earlier, are the church.
Rev. 13:7 - He was given power to make war against the saints and to conquer them. And he was given authority over every tribe, people, language and nation.
Dan. 7:21 - As I watched, this horn was waging war against the saints and defeating them
"Patient endurance and faithfulness"
are another quality of the church. Rom. 5:3, 12:12, Heb. 6:12, 2 Thess. 1:4, James 1:3, 5:10, Rev. 13:10, 14:12.
Rev.13:10 - If anyone is to go into captivity, into captivity he will go. If anyone is to be killed with the sword, with the sword he will be killed. This calls for patient endurance and faithfulness on the part of the saints.
James 5:10-11: Brothers, as an example of patience in the face of suffering, take the prophets who spoke in the name of the Lord. As you know, we consider blessed those who have persevered. You have heard of Job's perseverance and have seen what the Lord finally brought about. The Lord is full of compassion and mercy.
There is a similarity between the ordeal of Job and what the church will go through during the short time of the great trib.
Next let's compare the phrase "my people" in Rev. 18:4 with 2 Cor. 6:16-17.
Rev. 18:4 - Then I heard another voice from heaven say: "Come out of her, my people, so that you will not share in her sins, so that you will not receive any of her plagues;
2 Cor. 6:16-17 - What agreement is there between the temple of God and idols? For we are the temple of the living God. As God has said: "I will live with them and walk among them, and I will be their God, and they will be my people." "Therefore come out from them and be separate, says the Lord. Touch no unclean thing, and I will receive you."
Pre-trib rapture believers usually take all the "thief " verses and equate them to a signless, imminent rapture ignoring 1 Thess. 5:4, but then you have Rev. 16:15 happening well within the midst of the 70th week. "Behold, I come like a thief! Blessed is he who stays awake and keeps his clothes with him, so that he may not go naked and be shamefully exposed."
Another problem arises for them in the midst of the 70th week with the Harvest of the Good, Rev. 14:14-16 immediately followed by the Harvest of the Evil in vss. 17-20.As you can see the church is all over the Book of Revelations and is not mysteriously missing as this person implied. One must not over emphasize a word like "church" and ignore all the other adjectives in the bible that describes us.
