IS THE RAPTURE BEFORE THE TRIBULATION?

[KUWN]

This is the BIG MISTAKE that pre-trib must adhere to = "the trib is the wrath of God"

Pre Trib teaches that the 7 year covenant signed by Israel and Antichrist is the 7 year Tribulation. You alone hold this false view. Or, perhaps you could share with us the names of Evangelical scholars who teach this view you have explained.

The tribulation began in Genesis, in the Garden.
Satan brought on the Tribulation
Satan is the god of this Age/world and he is responsible for the Great Tribulation = Revelation 12:7-12

Satan's wrath will soon bring on the Great Tribulation.

Once that is accomplished, the LORD Returns and brings the Wrath of God down upon all who joined in the Rebellion of 2 Thess ch2

READ the TRUTH = BELIEVE JESUS
And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought, but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them in heaven any longer. So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, “Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down. And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death. Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and you who dwell in them! Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea!
For the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, because he knows that he has a short time.”

There is a specific Tribulation that you call the Great Tribulation. You are close. There is a tribulation that is not part of the prophesied event. It would simply be general tribulation we all suffer with. But remember the prophesied Tribulation is a unique period of last days, and the Church is exempt from it. I do hold that there is a Great Tribulation which Revelation identifies it as 3 1/2 years that will emerge after the signing of the covenant, (this is the last half of the Tribulation, also known as the Great Tribulation). The unique time of God's wrath is granted to Satan to bring The Tribulation period against all people, especially Jews. Satan is nothing more than a puppet carrying out God's plan.

 

[David in NJ]

Pre Trib teaches that the 7 year covenant signed by Israel and Antichrist is the 7 year Tribulation. You alone hold this false view. Or, perhaps you could share with us the names of Evangelical scholars who teach this view you have explained.


There is a specific Tribulation that you call the Great Tribulation. You are close. There is a tribulation that is not part of the prophesied event. It would simply be general tribulation we all suffer with. But remember the prophesied Tribulation is a unique period of last days, and the Church is exempt from it. I do hold that there is a Great Tribulation which Revelation identifies it as 3 1/2 years that will emerge after the signing of the covenant, (this is the last half of the Tribulation, also known as the Great Tribulation). The unique time of God's wrath is granted to Satan to bring The Tribulation period against all people, especially Jews. Satan is nothing more than a puppet carrying out God's plan.

The Evangelical Scholar whom i am under His teaching is not well known but He is The Approved Scholar of Scripture.

 

[David in NJ]

Pre Trib teaches that the 7 year covenant signed by Israel and Antichrist is the 7 year Tribulation. You alone hold this false view. Or, perhaps you could share with us the names of Evangelical scholars who teach this view you have explained.


There is a specific Tribulation that you call the Great Tribulation. You are close. There is a tribulation that is not part of the prophesied event. It would simply be general tribulation we all suffer with. But remember the prophesied Tribulation is a unique period of last days, and the Church is exempt from it. I do hold that there is a Great Tribulation which Revelation identifies it as 3 1/2 years that will emerge after the signing of the covenant, (this is the last half of the Tribulation, also known as the Great Tribulation). The unique time of God's wrath is granted to Satan to bring The Tribulation period against all people, especially Jews. Satan is nothing more than a puppet carrying out God's plan.

But remember the prophesied Tribulation is a unique period of last days, and the Church is exempt from it.

Really???

Please post the scripture that declares this - thank you

 

[David in NJ]

No, Christ mentioned it was still future from his day. The only way of coming up with the correct answer is to do a Systematic Study of The Tribulation. Christ has much to say about The Tribulation. Just because you see the word "tribulation" don't assume that all the references of this word are part of the special time of God's fulfilling prophecy.

I know of no scholar who holds to the view you are espousing. Can you list a few scholars that teach this view?

Christ mentioned it was still future from his day.

You are confused on this subject.

JESUS Says the Tribulation began in Genesis

JESUS also Says that the Tribulation which began in Genesis will grow into the Great Tribulation when satan is cast to earth.

LORD JESUS CHRIST = trust His every word

 

[KUWN]

You are confused on this subject.

JESUS Says the Tribulation began in Genesis

Where is it that he said this?

JESUS also Says that the Tribulation which began in Genesis will grow into the Great Tribulation when satan is cast to earth.

Where does it say this?

Really???

Please post the scripture that declares this - thank you

1 Thes 1.10 and Rev 3.10 to name a few good ones. Don't bother replying, I have read all the interpretations of these passages.

 

[Fred J]

Common folks, the tribulation the tread topic referring to is the future Great Tribulation of the saints and the world.

It will begin when the dictator anti-Christ shall rule the world and it's people, as the world and Jews will be 'deceived' he's their messiah.

Biblically, he'll make a peace treaty with Israel and he'll allow the Jews to build their 'third Temple', therefore this false messiah have won peace for Israel and freed them from their enemies.

Moreover when their Temple is restored back, Israel will be convinced that their GOD is back in HIS holies of holies and who freed them from their enemies through the false messiah.

And the Gospel and doctrine of Christianity to them has been 'false' all along, and the tribulation of the church saints shall begin in Israel.

At the same time the world likewise be deceived and shall receive this false messiah in bringing peace and stability to them.

Therefore then they will also conclude Biblical Christianity have been false and trouble to the whole world since, and tribulation of the church saints worldwide begins as well.

Even in the book of Revelation, the church saints who've ascended to Heaven, remarked as ones who've gone through the 'Great Tribulation', and out.

Shalom in the name of Jesus Christ our Lord.

 

[Fred J]

But remember the prophesied Tribulation is a unique period of last days, and the Church is exempt from it.

According to Revelation 20:4&5, the church did go through the one and only prophesied Great Tribulation.

For the church is specifically mentioned there, as ones who've gone through the Great Tribulation and came out. (Revelation 7:14)

This is during the reign of anti-Christ and the false prophet and whom did not yield to his rule and suffered persecution.

And these are among those church saints of the past who rise from their sleep and made it in the 'first resurrection'.

And the 'first resurrection' takes place after anti-Christ and the false prophet were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. (Revelation 19:20)

Likewise, satan is cast into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, for a thousand years. (Revelation 20:2&3)

For the record, if you're going to turn around with the 'gibberish nonsense' to say the scripture is referring to the 'saved Israel' then, no thank you.

 

[KUWN]

According to Revelation 20:4&5, the church did go through the one and only prophesied Great Tribulation.

FYI. The Church is not mentioned in Rev 20 4,5. It is not "saved Israel" but saved people. It is not limited to Israel. You do not appear to known the Pre Trib position. Who have you read that gave you the position of Pre Trib?

For the church is specifically mentioned there, as ones who've gone through the Great Tribulation and came out. (Revelation 7:14)

You are assuming the Church is mentioned in Rev 7.14. However, once again, the word Church does not appear there. Your position is based on a lack of foundation, no mention of the Church in the scriptures you cited, and is based on speculation.

This is during the reign of anti-Christ and the false prophet and whom did not yield to his rule and suffered persecution.

And these are among those church saints of the past who rise from their sleep and made it in the 'first resurrection'.

And the 'first resurrection' takes place after anti-Christ and the false prophet were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. (Revelation 19:20)

Likewise, satan is cast into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, for a thousand years. (Revelation 20:2&3)

For the record, if you're going to turn around with the 'gibberish nonsense' to say the scripture is referring to the 'saved Israel' then, no thank you.

You will also need to get rid of Rom 9-11 also.

 

[Fred J]

FYI. The Church is not mentioned in Rev 20 4,5.

You want the word 'church' written there in order for you to believe?

Or do you have the wisdom given from above to discern that the scripture reads like this.

That, these souls were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of GOD.

Only the true born again church are disciple and gifted, and with the Holy Ghost able to witness for Jesus, and for the word of GOD. (2Timothy3:16&17)

FYI. Do not 'wrest' the doctrine nor the scripture to your own destruction, thank you.

 

[David in NJ]

Where is it that he said this?


Where does it say this?


1 Thes 1.10 and Rev 3.10 to name a few good ones. Don't bother replying, I have read all the interpretations of these passages.

Ok now, you admit to not understanding the Gospel and words of Christ or the Apostles.

1 Thess 1:10 and 1 Thess 5:9 and 2 Thess ch2 and Rev 3:10, DO NOT in anyway, say the Church will be removed from Tribulation.

You and your so-called scholars have been duped for you reject the words of Christ and the Apostles.
Such is the place of man-made religion such as pre-trib rapture/scholars = massive deception

 

[KUWN]

You want the word 'church' written there in order for you to believe?

Or do you have the wisdom given from above to discern that the scripture reads like this.

That, these souls were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of GOD.

Only the true born again church are disciple and gifted, and with the Holy Ghost able to witness for Jesus, and for the word of GOD. (2Timothy3:16&17)

FYI. Do not 'wrest' the doctrine nor the scripture to your own destruction, thank you.

It looks like the best thing students and scholars of the Bible would do best if they just asked you what is the correct interpretation of any doctrine. I am glad at least one person knows all the right teachings of the Bible. I feel like I ought to worship you. And I certainly will not wrest the Bible to avoid my own soul going to hell. I tell you, you must be the smartest Christian in the world. Help the rest of us, put together some teachings so we also can know more.

 

[David in NJ]

You want the word 'church' written there in order for you to believe?

Or do you have the wisdom given from above to discern that the scripture reads like this.

That, these souls were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of GOD.

Only the true born again church are disciple and gifted, and with the Holy Ghost able to witness for Jesus, and for the word of GOD. (2Timothy3:16&17)

FYI. Do not 'wrest' the doctrine nor the scripture to your own destruction, thank you.

How many churches mentioned in Revelation?

 

[David in NJ]

BIBLE SCHOLAR CHALLENGE
Subject: pretrib- rapture

@KUWN @Fred J

Does pre-trib rapture "'wrest' the doctrine or the scripture to your own destruction" ???

If 'No' = prove that it does not
If 'Yes' = prove that it does

Caution: This is a high level Test and should not be approached or attempted by anyone who is unlearned in the Holy Scriptures.

 

[Fred J]

How many churches mentioned in Revelation?

There's only one body of Christ and it's the universal born again and disciple in the All Scripture=Holy Bible true church.

They have access by one Spirit unto the FATHER, and worldwide they 'gather', even it takes two or three, Jesus will be in their midst.

They'll be in oneness and togetherness, for in the spirit they'll feel for one another even though they may be far apart.

Even Paul wrote to the church while he was in prison saying that, even though he's unable to be with them but his spirit is there with them.

But if you're referring to the 7 churches Jesus through Apostle John wrote to, makes up the universal church to be raptured, you're wrong.

These 7 churches/gathering are written examples for the growing universal churches/gathering to discern generation after generation.

That, this is how as 7 lessons Jesus would address similarly His growing universal church/gathering worldwide, as to the condition of the city and nation they're in.

 

[Fred J]

BIBLE SCHOLAR CHALLENGE
Subject: pretrib- rapture

@KUWN @Fred J

Does pre-trib rapture "'wrest' the doctrine or the scripture to your own destruction" ???

If 'No' = prove that it does not
If 'Yes' = prove that it does

Caution: This is a high level Test and should not be approached or attempted by anyone who is unlearned in the Holy Scriptures.

First of all, do you have scripture to prove there's a pre-trib rapture?

 

[Davy]

BIBLE SCHOLAR CHALLENGE
Subject: pretrib- rapture

@KUWN @Fred J

Does pre-trib rapture "'wrest' the doctrine or the scripture to your own destruction" ???

If 'No' = prove that it does not
If 'Yes' = prove that it does

Caution: This is a high level Test and should not be approached or attempted by anyone who is unlearned in the Holy Scriptures.

THERE IS NO SUCH BIBLE SCHOLAR CHALLENGE REGARDING A PRE-TRIB RAPTURE.

Lord Jesus Christ settled the matter of 'when' His future coming to gather His saints will be per Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27. He showed His future coming and gathering of His Church will be AFTER... the tribulation.

A pre-trib rapture DOES NOT EXIST in God's written Word. That idea is a fabrication by men.

 

[Fred J]

THERE IS NO SUCH BIBLE SCHOLAR CHALLENGE REGARDING A PRE-TRIB RAPTURE.

Lord Jesus Christ settled the matter of 'when' His future coming to gather His saints will be per Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27. He showed His future coming and gathering of His Church will be AFTER... the tribulation.

A pre-trib rapture DOES NOT EXIST in God's written Word. That idea is a fabrication by men.

Precisely!

In my posts and quotes are likewise clear that the 'first resurrection' takes place after the 'Great Tribulation'.

After and when anti-Christ and the false prophet are cast into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

And likewise satan will be bound, cast into the bottomless pit for a thousand years.

Therefore the raptured church saints at the 'first resurrection' at the same time lived and reign with Christ a thousand years.

Does it sound like there's a continuation of the Great Tribulation after the 'first resurrection', even for one to claim about an mid-trib rapture?

No!

Apparently is after the 'Great Tribulation' and henceforth it is a thousand years of peace here on earth, while the enemies of the Light are cast away.

Conclusion
Pre-trib rapture - 'false' (does 'wrest' the doctrine and even the scriptures to one's own destruction)

Mid-trib rapture - 'false' (does 'wrest' the doctrine and even the scriptures to one's own destruction)

Post-trib rapture - 'truth' (does not 'wrest' the doctrine nor the scriptures, one will make it at the 'first resurrection')

Please cast away the doctrines of demons we're exposing and bring not to the Lord's table and defile the meal.

Shalom in the name of Lord Jesus Christ

 

[Fred J]

It looks like the best thing students and scholars of the Bible would do best if they just asked you what is the correct interpretation of any doctrine. I am glad at least one person knows all the right teachings of the Bible. I feel like I ought to worship you. And I certainly will not wrest the Bible to avoid my own soul going to hell. I tell you, you must be the smartest Christian in the world. Help the rest of us, put together some teachings so we also can know more.

That's an over statement and not necessary to go way off like that, and want me to feel the guilt.

i don't!

For the written 'truth' speaks for itself and am just an 'earthen vessel' used by GOD in Jesus name to display HIS treasures old and new.

May GOD in Jesus name forgive and bless you with truth and eternal life.

 

[Fred J]

We're built in the foundation of the Apostles and Prophets who likewise suffered and persecuted testifying for GOD.

GOD inspired them to be written down not forgetting us, as to the anointing HE placed in us and the Holy Ghost sent, we're discipled, helped and comforted.

As HE promised in the Old, HE in these last days through HIS Son, will Shepherd us personally, not trusting anymore 'hired hands'.

The true church will judge angels one day, therefore right now they're able to distinguish between the 'spirit of truth' and the 'spirit of error' for themselves.

As the Good Shepherd fed and nursed His own lambs and sheep, said to them, "You will know them by their fruit."

For theologians and scholars like to 'water it down' rather to sound 'soothing' for 'itching ear' listeners in church.

Jesus said, "My sheep hear my voice and follow Me, and to strangers voice they shall flee."

 

[David in NJ]

What a Glorious Morning!!!

Special appreciation to @Fred J and @Davy for speaking truth by the Holy Spirit of Truth.

@KUWN, please review their posts and allow the Truth to liberate your mind/heart from the fear of man, which is called "respect of persons".

"Respect of persons" is when we evaluate the Scriptures from the viewpoint of men who seemingly are qualified but do not yield to Truth.