Is then any connectivity or common topography between Dan. 2:31-48 and Daniel 7.
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Randy Kluth
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It's obvious to me that Dan 2 and Dan 7 are related dreams, one given to Nebuchadnezzar and the other to Daniel. They both involve 4 Kingdoms that began with Babylon in the time of Daniel.
As such, these 2 dreams are confirming visions of what will be before God's Kingdom comes. Traditionally, the 4 Kingdoms are Babylon, Persia, Greece, and Rome.
There is some debate about how Rome can be the 4th and last Kingdom before Christ's Kingdom comes. However, it is obvious, from a look at the book of Revelation, that Rome is at the center of prophecy before Christ's return. In ch. 17, the riddles John gives make it apparent that he is identifying the Harlot as Rome, since he cannot openly speak of it while he is under its imprisonment.
The facts of history indicate that though the Eastern Capital Constantinople fell in 1453, and the Western Capital Rome fell in 476, the Roman tradition continued in both Eastern and Western branches of the old Empire. Over time, they shifted northward, the East towards Russia, and the West towards Germany.
This Roman Imperial Tradition has never really gone away, and has not been defeated by any external empire, except with regard to territories that have transitioned out of, including Asia Minor. The Ottoman Empire defeated Constantinople, but the Eastern tradition continued among the Slavs to the North. In the West, Rome was defeated by the Visigoths, but continued to be the center of the soon to rise Holy Roman Empire.
So the 4th Kingdom of Daniel, mentioned in both Dan 2 and Dan 7, continues until Christ returns. It is when the 4th Kingdom reaches its "Feet" stage, and when the "10 toes" appear, that this will be fulfilled. This is referred to in Dan 2.
Both Dan 2 and Dan 7 seem to refer to these same 10 kings at the end of history. It is at this time that Antichrist, the "Little Horn," will appear, as indicated in Dan 7.
Daniel 7 is speaking of 20th century Kingdoms, beginning with British Empire. Daniel 2 is a long term prophecy, Daniel 7 a focused view of the final empire of Daniel 2
Keraz
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The Prophesies of Daniel
Daniel 2:20-22 Blessed be the Lord’s Name [Jesus] from age to age, for to Him belong wisdom and power. He changes seasons and times, He deposes and sets up kings. He gives wisdom to the wise and knowledge to those with discernment, revealing deep mysteries: in Him there is light and understanding. Proverbs 8:12-29
Daniel 2:31-33 In your dream, your majesty, you saw a great image. The head of the image was of fine gold, its chest and arms of silver, its belly and thighs of bronze, its legs of iron and its feet of part iron, part clay.
The Assyrian Kingdom – [Sargon]
Daniel 7:4 The first beast was like a lion with eagles wings, then its wings were removed and it stood on two feet like a human. It was given the mind of a human.
[This kingdom had already passed by the time of Nebuchadnezzar’s dream. It conquered and sent into exile the ten Northern tribes of Israel]
The Babylonian Kingdom – [Nebuchadnezzar]
Daniel 2:38 You king Nebuchadnezzar, are that head of gold.
Daniel 7:5 The second beast was like a bear, it raised itself up on one side and it had three ribs in its mouth. The command was given: Get up and gorge yourself on flesh. [The Babylonian conquest of Judah]
The Media/Persian Kingdom [King Cyrus]
Daniel 2:32 & 39a...its chest and arms of silver...After you another kingdom will arise that will be inferior to yours
Daniel 8:3-4 & 20 The ram with two horns, Persia and Media.
The Macedonian [Greek] Kingdom –. [Alexander the Great]
Daniel 2:32 & 39b ...its belly and thighs of bronze....Next a third kingdom of bronze will rule over the whole earth.
Daniel 7:6 The third beast was like a leopard with four wings like a bird, it had four heads and was given authority to rule. [Alexander’s conquest of the known world]
Daniel 8:5-8 & 20-21 The defeat of the Babylonian Empire, by Alexander. Daniel 11:2
Daniel 8:9-14 & 22 After Alexander’s death, four kingdoms are formed.
Daniel 11:3-4 One of those kings, Antiochus Epiphanes, succeeded in conquering the holy Land and he desecrated the Temple. 2 Maccabees 5:13-20 Then Judas Maccabaeus defeated him. 2 Maccabees 8:16-24 Then they rededicated the Temple. 2 Maccabees 10:1-8 The 2300 evenings and mornings; actually 1150 days, was the time between the desecration and rededication of the Temple, circa 167BC to 164BC. This is a precursor to what will happen in the last days.
Daniel 11:5-20 This is a description of other historical battles and alliances.
The Roman Empire – [Julius Caesar]
Daniel 2:32-33 & 40 Finally there will be a fourth kingdom, strong as iron, it will dominate all the others, but as its legs represent, this will be a divided kingdom – its people will be a mixture, it will not remain united. [The Western and Eastern Roman Empires]
Daniel 7:7a & 23 The fourth beast, fearsome and very powerful with great iron teeth, crushed and devoured its victims, then trampled what was left.
Daniel 9:26 After sixty two weeks, [434 years] the anointed Prince, [Jesus] will be removed and the army [of Rome] will destroy the city and the Temple. [As fulfilled in 70AD.]
A Last Days resurgence of Rome – [the Anti Christ]
Daniel 2:33 & 42-43...its feet of part iron and part clay....
Daniel 7:7b-8 ... the fourth beast had ten horns, another horn grew up and uprooted three of the ten. That other horn was very imposing and spoke with great power. As I watched this horn waged war on the holy ones and defeated them. Rev 17:12-13, Rev 13:5-8
Daniel 7:23-24 The explanation is this: This fourth kingdom will take over the whole earth, [A One World Government] The ten horns signify the ten divisions of the world, but another man will arise and defeat three of the first leaders.
Daniel 11:21 Another king will come, a person not worthy of recognition, but he will seize power by intrigue and cunning. [a clever and charismatic man]
Daniel 8:23-25 In the last days, when sin is at its height, a powerful king and a master of strategy will arise. He will succeed in whatever he does and will take control of the nations and the holy people. [all the faithful Christians, gathered in all of the holy Land. Zechariah 14:1-2, Revelation 13:5-8] By cunning and deceit, he will destroy many when they felt secure and did not expect it. He will challenge the ‘Prince of princes’, [the Lord] yet he will be defeated, but not by human hand.
Daniel 9:27 The prince, [The world leader, descended from Rome] will make a treaty with many, [that is: not all of the Christians] for one week, [that is: seven years] but at the mid point, he will put a stop to the sacrifices and offerings. [in the new Temple] He will place an ‘abomination’ there, then in the end what has been decreed will come on him.
Daniel 7:25 He will defy God and take control of the holy people for 3½ years. [This is the ‘beast’ of Revelation 13:1-8. The One World leader receives a ‘mortal blow’ and his body is taken over by Satan, commencing the ‘forty two months’ Tribulation period]
Daniel 11:22-45 His army will be victorious and a leader of the Covenant people will be killed. The military forces of the South will be defeated and he will invade the Middle East, but ships of the Western nations will oppose him, so he will turn back. In the holy Land, he will vent his fury against the people who hold to the Covenant, but will show favour to those who forsake it by believing his promises. His soldiers will desecrate the Temple, setting up an ‘abomination of desolation’. Those of the Lord’s people [Christians] who remain faithful to the Lord, will be resolute and take action. Wise leaders of the nation will guide their people, though for a time some may be killed or captured. They will receive a little help, as many who join them are insincere. This is a period of testing, of refining and purification, for the end is yet to be; at the appointed time. Daniel 7:9, Daniel 8:22, Rev. 13:8
Daniel 11:36-45 This powerful world ruler will do as he pleases, he will promote himself as god, uttering terrible blasphemies. Things will go well for him until the time of wrath is completed. [The Tribulation] Near the end, the leader of a Southern confederation will attempt to attack him, so he storms out in full force, sweeping all before him, including the holy Land. He will take control of all Arabia and take their treasure. Then, alarmed by rumours from the North and East, he will hurriedly go back to Israel and camp in the valley of Megiddo, where he will meet his end. Daniel 7:11, Revelation 19:17-21
The Kingdom of Jesus – Psalms 2:7-8, Isaiah 32:1, Revelation 19:16
Daniel 2:34-35 & 44-45 I saw a supernatural Rock that smashed the statue, it blew it away like chaff. Then that Rock became a huge mountain that filled the whole earth. God will set up a Kingdom that will be supreme over all other kingdoms and it will endure forever.
Daniel 7:13-14 & 26-27 The Return of Jesus for His Millennium reign. Gods judgement is against the Anti Christ and his kingdom is abolished. The governance of the whole world is given to the holy people of God. Revelation 20:6
Daniel 12:1-4 At the end of that time, [the Tribulation] Michael, the Archangel of Israel will appear, he will deliver the Lord’s people – everyone whose name is written in the Book of Life. Many of the dead will rise, some to eternal life, some to eternal abhorrence. The wise leaders, those who guided the people on the true path, will shine like stars forever.
But you, Daniel, keep this book sealed until the time of the end. Many will try, but will not succeed to gain this knowledge.
Daniel 12:5-10 I asked: How long until the end of these things? It will be for 3½ years, [1260 days] when the holy people regain their strength. I asked: What will the outcome of all this be? Go your way, Daniel, for these prophesies are to be kept secret until the time of the end. Many people will be purified and made righteous, but the godless will keep on in their wickedness and none of them will understand. Daniel 8:22
Daniel 12:11-12 From the time the Anti Christ sets up the ‘abomination of desolation’, there will be 1290 days. Blessed are those who see the completion of 1335 days!
Reference: REB, NIV, KJV. some verses condensed.
Daniel 2:20-22 Blessed be the Lord’s Name [Jesus] from age to age, for to Him belong wisdom and power. He changes seasons and times, He deposes and sets up kings. He gives wisdom to the wise and knowledge to those with discernment, revealing deep mysteries: in Him there is light and understanding. Proverbs 8:12-29
Daniel 2:31-33 In your dream, your majesty, you saw a great image. The head of the image was of fine gold, its chest and arms of silver, its belly and thighs of bronze, its legs of iron and its feet of part iron, part clay.
The Assyrian Kingdom – [Sargon]
Daniel 7:4 The first beast was like a lion with eagles wings, then its wings were removed and it stood on two feet like a human. It was given the mind of a human.
[This kingdom had already passed by the time of Nebuchadnezzar’s dream. It conquered and sent into exile the ten Northern tribes of Israel]
The Babylonian Kingdom – [Nebuchadnezzar]
Daniel 2:38 You king Nebuchadnezzar, are that head of gold.
Daniel 7:5 The second beast was like a bear, it raised itself up on one side and it had three ribs in its mouth. The command was given: Get up and gorge yourself on flesh. [The Babylonian conquest of Judah]
The Media/Persian Kingdom [King Cyrus]
Daniel 2:32 & 39a...its chest and arms of silver...After you another kingdom will arise that will be inferior to yours
Daniel 8:3-4 & 20 The ram with two horns, Persia and Media.
The Macedonian [Greek] Kingdom –. [Alexander the Great]
Daniel 2:32 & 39b ...its belly and thighs of bronze....Next a third kingdom of bronze will rule over the whole earth.
Daniel 7:6 The third beast was like a leopard with four wings like a bird, it had four heads and was given authority to rule. [Alexander’s conquest of the known world]
Daniel 8:5-8 & 20-21 The defeat of the Babylonian Empire, by Alexander. Daniel 11:2
Daniel 8:9-14 & 22 After Alexander’s death, four kingdoms are formed.
Daniel 11:3-4 One of those kings, Antiochus Epiphanes, succeeded in conquering the holy Land and he desecrated the Temple. 2 Maccabees 5:13-20 Then Judas Maccabaeus defeated him. 2 Maccabees 8:16-24 Then they rededicated the Temple. 2 Maccabees 10:1-8 The 2300 evenings and mornings; actually 1150 days, was the time between the desecration and rededication of the Temple, circa 167BC to 164BC. This is a precursor to what will happen in the last days.
Daniel 11:5-20 This is a description of other historical battles and alliances.
The Roman Empire – [Julius Caesar]
Daniel 2:32-33 & 40 Finally there will be a fourth kingdom, strong as iron, it will dominate all the others, but as its legs represent, this will be a divided kingdom – its people will be a mixture, it will not remain united. [The Western and Eastern Roman Empires]
Daniel 7:7a & 23 The fourth beast, fearsome and very powerful with great iron teeth, crushed and devoured its victims, then trampled what was left.
Daniel 9:26 After sixty two weeks, [434 years] the anointed Prince, [Jesus] will be removed and the army [of Rome] will destroy the city and the Temple. [As fulfilled in 70AD.]
A Last Days resurgence of Rome – [the Anti Christ]
Daniel 2:33 & 42-43...its feet of part iron and part clay....
Daniel 7:7b-8 ... the fourth beast had ten horns, another horn grew up and uprooted three of the ten. That other horn was very imposing and spoke with great power. As I watched this horn waged war on the holy ones and defeated them. Rev 17:12-13, Rev 13:5-8
Daniel 7:23-24 The explanation is this: This fourth kingdom will take over the whole earth, [A One World Government] The ten horns signify the ten divisions of the world, but another man will arise and defeat three of the first leaders.
Daniel 11:21 Another king will come, a person not worthy of recognition, but he will seize power by intrigue and cunning. [a clever and charismatic man]
Daniel 8:23-25 In the last days, when sin is at its height, a powerful king and a master of strategy will arise. He will succeed in whatever he does and will take control of the nations and the holy people. [all the faithful Christians, gathered in all of the holy Land. Zechariah 14:1-2, Revelation 13:5-8] By cunning and deceit, he will destroy many when they felt secure and did not expect it. He will challenge the ‘Prince of princes’, [the Lord] yet he will be defeated, but not by human hand.
Daniel 9:27 The prince, [The world leader, descended from Rome] will make a treaty with many, [that is: not all of the Christians] for one week, [that is: seven years] but at the mid point, he will put a stop to the sacrifices and offerings. [in the new Temple] He will place an ‘abomination’ there, then in the end what has been decreed will come on him.
Daniel 7:25 He will defy God and take control of the holy people for 3½ years. [This is the ‘beast’ of Revelation 13:1-8. The One World leader receives a ‘mortal blow’ and his body is taken over by Satan, commencing the ‘forty two months’ Tribulation period]
Daniel 11:22-45 His army will be victorious and a leader of the Covenant people will be killed. The military forces of the South will be defeated and he will invade the Middle East, but ships of the Western nations will oppose him, so he will turn back. In the holy Land, he will vent his fury against the people who hold to the Covenant, but will show favour to those who forsake it by believing his promises. His soldiers will desecrate the Temple, setting up an ‘abomination of desolation’. Those of the Lord’s people [Christians] who remain faithful to the Lord, will be resolute and take action. Wise leaders of the nation will guide their people, though for a time some may be killed or captured. They will receive a little help, as many who join them are insincere. This is a period of testing, of refining and purification, for the end is yet to be; at the appointed time. Daniel 7:9, Daniel 8:22, Rev. 13:8
Daniel 11:36-45 This powerful world ruler will do as he pleases, he will promote himself as god, uttering terrible blasphemies. Things will go well for him until the time of wrath is completed. [The Tribulation] Near the end, the leader of a Southern confederation will attempt to attack him, so he storms out in full force, sweeping all before him, including the holy Land. He will take control of all Arabia and take their treasure. Then, alarmed by rumours from the North and East, he will hurriedly go back to Israel and camp in the valley of Megiddo, where he will meet his end. Daniel 7:11, Revelation 19:17-21
The Kingdom of Jesus – Psalms 2:7-8, Isaiah 32:1, Revelation 19:16
Daniel 2:34-35 & 44-45 I saw a supernatural Rock that smashed the statue, it blew it away like chaff. Then that Rock became a huge mountain that filled the whole earth. God will set up a Kingdom that will be supreme over all other kingdoms and it will endure forever.
Daniel 7:13-14 & 26-27 The Return of Jesus for His Millennium reign. Gods judgement is against the Anti Christ and his kingdom is abolished. The governance of the whole world is given to the holy people of God. Revelation 20:6
Daniel 12:1-4 At the end of that time, [the Tribulation] Michael, the Archangel of Israel will appear, he will deliver the Lord’s people – everyone whose name is written in the Book of Life. Many of the dead will rise, some to eternal life, some to eternal abhorrence. The wise leaders, those who guided the people on the true path, will shine like stars forever.
But you, Daniel, keep this book sealed until the time of the end. Many will try, but will not succeed to gain this knowledge.
Daniel 12:5-10 I asked: How long until the end of these things? It will be for 3½ years, [1260 days] when the holy people regain their strength. I asked: What will the outcome of all this be? Go your way, Daniel, for these prophesies are to be kept secret until the time of the end. Many people will be purified and made righteous, but the godless will keep on in their wickedness and none of them will understand. Daniel 8:22
Daniel 12:11-12 From the time the Anti Christ sets up the ‘abomination of desolation’, there will be 1290 days. Blessed are those who see the completion of 1335 days!
Reference: REB, NIV, KJV. some verses condensed.
Keraz
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THE PAST AGES: the first 5 seals were opened, the 4 horsemen released and persecution started, from the murder of Abel until the Return. Zechariah 1:10, Matthew 23:35
THE PRESENT DAY: Wars, rumours of wars, natural disasters, economic problems, food shortages, overpopulation, false teaching, etc, etc. Matthew 24:4-8, 2 Timothy 3:1-4 This is the completion of the exile of the Northern ten tribes of Israel.
The great and terrible day of the Lord’s vengeance and wrath, a CME sunstrike. Isaiah 30:26. It is the Sixth seal. Worldwide devastation and the Middle East is completely cleared, Psalm 83, a small Jewish remnant survive in Jerusalem. Isaiah 4:3 Many will die elsewhere, such as America: Isaiah 17:4-10, but most will survive and eventually re establish the infrastructure. Isaiah 2:12-21, 2 Peter 3:7 & 10
The Lord’s people, righteous Israel, gather in the new country of Beulah. Isaiah 62:4 They live in peace and security and 144,000 missionaries are selected from them, to go out to all peoples and preach the coming Kingdom of Jesus. Revelation 7 & 14, Isaiah 66:19
A One World Government is formed, led by ten Presidents. Before long, three will be taken over and the other seven will confer their power onto another strong leader. Daniel 7:24-25, Revelation 13:1-8
A Northern confederation, led by a person referred to as Gog, will be motivated to attack Beulah – an unprotected land, of great wealth. They will be totally wiped out and it takes seven years to bury them and clean the land. Ezekiel 38 & 39, Joel 2:20
The strong leader of the World Government, will make a seven year treaty with Beulah. This marks the commencement of the seventieth ‘week’ [seven years] of Daniel. There is a 3½ year period of calm and peace in the world. Daniel 9:27
The world dictator comes to Jerusalem in force and declares himself to be god in the new Temple. This starts the Great Tribulation, the trumpet and bowl judgements. The ‘Woman’- righteous Israel, are taken to Bozrah [could be New Zealand] for 1260 days. Zechariah 14:2, Revelation 12:14
The Glorious Return of Jesus. The battle of Armageddon. The regathering of Israel and all those who have kept faithful. The 1000 year Millennium reign.
|The seven years of Daniel |
The 7year Treaty signed, peace for 3½ years. | 1260 days, the first half |
The Great Tribulation, two witnesses, Woman protected. |1260 days, the second half |
The festival of Trumpets – Rosh Hashanah, the Return of Jesus | The battle of Armageddon.
The festival of Atonement – Yom Kippur, His people forgiven – five days |
The Marriage supper of the Lamb - 1290 days | 1260 + 30 |
The festival of Lights- Hanukkah – 1335 days | 1260 + 75 |
The Millennium reign of Jesus. | 1000 years |
The final attack against the holy city and the armies are instantly cremated. Satan is cast into the lake of fire. Revelation 16:13-16, Revelation 19:17-21
The Great White Throne judgement, a New Heaven and a New Earth. Daniel 7:9-10, Revelation 21:1-7
THE PRESENT DAY: Wars, rumours of wars, natural disasters, economic problems, food shortages, overpopulation, false teaching, etc, etc. Matthew 24:4-8, 2 Timothy 3:1-4 This is the completion of the exile of the Northern ten tribes of Israel.
The great and terrible day of the Lord’s vengeance and wrath, a CME sunstrike. Isaiah 30:26. It is the Sixth seal. Worldwide devastation and the Middle East is completely cleared, Psalm 83, a small Jewish remnant survive in Jerusalem. Isaiah 4:3 Many will die elsewhere, such as America: Isaiah 17:4-10, but most will survive and eventually re establish the infrastructure. Isaiah 2:12-21, 2 Peter 3:7 & 10
The Lord’s people, righteous Israel, gather in the new country of Beulah. Isaiah 62:4 They live in peace and security and 144,000 missionaries are selected from them, to go out to all peoples and preach the coming Kingdom of Jesus. Revelation 7 & 14, Isaiah 66:19
A One World Government is formed, led by ten Presidents. Before long, three will be taken over and the other seven will confer their power onto another strong leader. Daniel 7:24-25, Revelation 13:1-8
A Northern confederation, led by a person referred to as Gog, will be motivated to attack Beulah – an unprotected land, of great wealth. They will be totally wiped out and it takes seven years to bury them and clean the land. Ezekiel 38 & 39, Joel 2:20
The strong leader of the World Government, will make a seven year treaty with Beulah. This marks the commencement of the seventieth ‘week’ [seven years] of Daniel. There is a 3½ year period of calm and peace in the world. Daniel 9:27
The world dictator comes to Jerusalem in force and declares himself to be god in the new Temple. This starts the Great Tribulation, the trumpet and bowl judgements. The ‘Woman’- righteous Israel, are taken to Bozrah [could be New Zealand] for 1260 days. Zechariah 14:2, Revelation 12:14
The Glorious Return of Jesus. The battle of Armageddon. The regathering of Israel and all those who have kept faithful. The 1000 year Millennium reign.
|The seven years of Daniel |
The 7year Treaty signed, peace for 3½ years. | 1260 days, the first half |
The Great Tribulation, two witnesses, Woman protected. |1260 days, the second half |
The festival of Trumpets – Rosh Hashanah, the Return of Jesus | The battle of Armageddon.
The festival of Atonement – Yom Kippur, His people forgiven – five days |
The Marriage supper of the Lamb - 1290 days | 1260 + 30 |
The festival of Lights- Hanukkah – 1335 days | 1260 + 75 |
The Millennium reign of Jesus. | 1000 years |
The final attack against the holy city and the armies are instantly cremated. Satan is cast into the lake of fire. Revelation 16:13-16, Revelation 19:17-21
The Great White Throne judgement, a New Heaven and a New Earth. Daniel 7:9-10, Revelation 21:1-7
Is not the topographical landscape of the Statue prophecy in Dan. 2 simply restricted to what will occur in and over the land of Babylon and the people who live and control the people within it, whereas the topographical landscape of Dan. 7 prophecy concerning the beasts spans the whole earth and impacts every person on the whole face of the earth.
Since the topography of both passages is not the same, the connecting of these two passages together as if they have some indisputable connectivity between them is flawed.
Shalom
Since the topography of both passages is not the same, the connecting of these two passages together as if they have some indisputable connectivity between them is flawed.
Shalom
Randy Kluth
Well-Known Member
I agree with your view that the 4 Kingdoms are Babylon, Persia, Greece, and Rome. Where I disagree is on the interpretation of Dan 8, 11, and 12.11-12. These have to do, I believe, with Antiochus, who is sort of a foreshadowing of the Antichrist. Prophecy of Antiochus 4 and prophecy of Antichrist should be compared, but not conflated. They represent 2 very different time periods, even if the language is somewhat similar.
@Keraz and @Randy Kluth, while I appreciate your input, I am not to discuss the Kingdoms associated with either Daniel. 2 or 7 but rather the topographically landscapes in which these two prophetic passages have been set in.
While I may agree with the fact that some of the kingdoms mentioned can be linked to the Daniel.2 statue prophecy, the Roman Empire certainly cannot be found among the empires or nations that have exercised dominion over the land of Babylon and Jer. 50-51 must be consulted with respect to Daniel's Statue Prophecy to give us a clue as to the four and fifth segment of the statue. Jer. also tells us in a couple of verses that Babylon will be made desolated and devastated for a specific period of two ages before the fourth nation of the fourth segment appears. This in and of itself means that the Roman Empire is not in view within the Statue prophecy.
As for the Daniel. 7's prophecy we must consider that the topographical landscape is very different to the Statue Prophecy and although we can identify fairly accurately the manifestations of the four beasts and the influence that they and the little horn exercises of the respective manifestations of the beasts, we need to be able to identify the entities that are the actual beasts of Daniel. 7. I believe that until we can solve who or what are the four winds of heaven are in verse 2, our understanding of the Daniel. 7 prophecy is very limited and our understanding of how the beasts have continued to have are.
It is the four winds of heaven who cause the sea to manifest the beasts characteristics and while ever the manifested beasts live within the dominions of the respective four winds of Heaven they can be controlled by the four winds of heaven to do their bidding.
Because the manifested beasts ebb and flow over time, the actual beasts, the four winds of heaven, cause to manifest new people groups and kingdoms and empires to rise up to do their bidding.
Because of this view I can claim that the two prophecies have no real connectivity or common topography.
Shalom
While I may agree with the fact that some of the kingdoms mentioned can be linked to the Daniel.2 statue prophecy, the Roman Empire certainly cannot be found among the empires or nations that have exercised dominion over the land of Babylon and Jer. 50-51 must be consulted with respect to Daniel's Statue Prophecy to give us a clue as to the four and fifth segment of the statue. Jer. also tells us in a couple of verses that Babylon will be made desolated and devastated for a specific period of two ages before the fourth nation of the fourth segment appears. This in and of itself means that the Roman Empire is not in view within the Statue prophecy.
As for the Daniel. 7's prophecy we must consider that the topographical landscape is very different to the Statue Prophecy and although we can identify fairly accurately the manifestations of the four beasts and the influence that they and the little horn exercises of the respective manifestations of the beasts, we need to be able to identify the entities that are the actual beasts of Daniel. 7. I believe that until we can solve who or what are the four winds of heaven are in verse 2, our understanding of the Daniel. 7 prophecy is very limited and our understanding of how the beasts have continued to have are.
It is the four winds of heaven who cause the sea to manifest the beasts characteristics and while ever the manifested beasts live within the dominions of the respective four winds of Heaven they can be controlled by the four winds of heaven to do their bidding.
Because the manifested beasts ebb and flow over time, the actual beasts, the four winds of heaven, cause to manifest new people groups and kingdoms and empires to rise up to do their bidding.
Because of this view I can claim that the two prophecies have no real connectivity or common topography.
Shalom
Randy Kluth
Well-Known Member
This brings to question why you've even asked the question?The fact is, the way you've worded it invites the question: what do you mean by "topography?"
We don't need to go to Jer 50-51 to interpret the book of Daniel or the dreams you referred to. We should go directly to those passages and recognize they obviously relate to each other, and each begin with the Kingdom of Babylon, in which Daniel resided. Figuring out the rest of the Kingdoms have no need of reference to Jeremiah, nor to dominion over the land of Babylon.
These were a series of Kingdoms that held dominion in this general part of the world, associated with the Mediterranean and associated with Israel. They had in, in their turn, unchallenged power. Power over other neighboring powers does not imply complete control of all other territories--just unchallenged might against those who would unseat them.
You're confusing, I believe, two very different prophecies. The Jeremiah prophecy has to do with the destruction of Babylon in ancient history. The prophecy in Dan 2 and 7 views Babylon as the 1st of 4 ancient Kingdoms, the 4th of which lasts, in some way, until the Kingdom of God comes.
It is the Kingdom of Rome that lasts forever--not the Babylonian Kingdom, which was destroyed in ancient times. Rome is referred to as "Mystery Babylon" because John couldn't name it as such, due to the fact his captors were Romans. He didn't want to be calling their empire a "Harlot!"
And so, John referred to Rome as the first in these series of four powers because John knew that Rome was presently in existence, and would last until Christ's Kingdom comes. "Babylon" was a name of mystery, and not a literal name.
I don't see all this about this role of the "4 Winds" in the prophecy. It seems that you're reading an awful lot into it? Yes, the "4 Winds" are there. But how they relate to the 4 Kingdoms is not given any detail. As you say, this is just a stirring up of these empires into action, so that each in turn assumes their role.
You're welcome to your interpretation. I've given mine, since you asked for other opinions.
Though I disagree with the final conclusions of this link, I see this as being an accurate interpretation of Daniel 7 prophecy of four Kingdoms.
Ken Raggio teaches the Four Beasts Of Daniel 7
Although the view expressed in Ken Raggio teaching on the four beasts of Daniel 7 suggests that the four winds of heaven are the beasts that finally rise up out of the earth, it seems to me that his understanding of the time frames and the events that are dotted along God's time line of the earth's history may be skewered by other miss understandings of other prophecies connected with the End Times and when they are to occur.
But thanks for sharing your views and the link.
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
Well Britain had control of the Middle East, as an empire, and Britain was not even part of the 10 toes. Since the 10 toes were during the 1600's, prior to the dominant British Empire, who won between, France, Spain, and Portugal, does it matter now? Democracy and self government took over and negated empiricism. The USSR never had control of Iraq, but came close. The US had a few years, but the US was never really an empire. As a religion, Islam has some say, but Islam itself is not really a joint empire with 2 or 3 divisions within itself, like it's cousin the "church".
What people are missing is that in the 6th Seal, there will be no more continents. Only the ME area will be the same recognizable nations. Humans will be re-thinking religion and new governing borders at the 6th Seal. Revelation 6:14
14 The sky receded like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved from its place.
Mountains make up the continents in the fact that when plates move they create mountains. If mountains are moving, then continents are moving, because they go hand in hand with each other. This is not thousands of years of slow "drift". This is movement in hours if not minutes. This small detail is left out of most Second Coming scenarios, but John declares the fact, and it should not be ignored. Will New Zealand end up next to China, Chile, or California?
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