Rose...
ChristRoseFromTheDead said:
As I said before, you're equivocating with the word works. Works of law (Paul/Moses) are something we do of our own will. Works of faith (James/Christ) are fruits of the spirit that are done through us by our yielding to GOD's will in faith.
I suspect the equivocation is both deceitful and willful, and that you are a philonomian (i.e., law lover).
The answer to your question is yes, if works means works of faith (i.e., fruits of the spirit).
The fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth. Ephesians 5:9
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. Galatians 5:22-23
But if works means works of law (i.e., Moses), then the question is self-contradictory, and fallacious.
Fruits of the spirit are spiritual, not works of the flesh ... all the fruits of the spirit are characteristics of the spirit, NOT ACTIONS, and that's not works.
Willimac...
Abraham believed God and it was accounted to him as righteousness. He was justified by faith. His works, as James called it, was simply a test that he was given to see if he believed God. He had previously determined to gain a son through the bondwoman, indicating that he was not yet convinced that God would or could fulfill His promise through his barren wife. Later on, when that was proven by God through a miracle, there was a test of his faith in the instruction to sacrifice his son of promise. Thus Abraham's willingness to go along with this strange request indicated that he believed God. It was always about faith.
James, in his letter, was asking them if they had faith. He did this, either sincerely or tongue in cheek, because he did not see the kind of fruit that a believer usually displays. He was not demanding that they add works to their faith. He was questioning their faith by their works. The conclusion is that if they were lacking anything, it was faith. As in Abraham's case, James was requesting that they show proof of their faith.
This is why I mentioned context. And by the way, not having personally attended any formal training, I can only relay what I have learned about bible interpretation. What I have learned from my own studies and experience, and confirmed by pretty much every bible scholar of formal training, is that there are methods and rules of thumb involved in interpreting scripture...not the least of which is to look at a passage in its context.
You have shown me something about yourself in your describing my comment on context as a theory. It is more than a mere theory. It is a method. If one fails to use this method, the result will be to misunderstand a text. My opinion is that if a person does his homework, they will have a better chance of understanding. My advice is to read the entire letter from James and see if I said anything that was just a theory.
To reply to your most recent question...yes. It is impossible to have true faith without works. However, as the previous reply has also said..the works are the result of what the faith has brought into the person's life. Faith has a purpose in the new covenant. The purpose is to receive that which God is offering...a new nature through the new birth. Dogs bark because they ARE dogs. They are not working at becoming dogs. Believers do good works (fruit) because of who they have become through faith. The works are
after the fact. Works cannot justify a person to receive what they already have received. They simply confirm the faith that received life from God. They offer evidence that the new birth has occurred, and will be rewarded appropriately on the judgment seat of Christ.
And FYI, to those whom it concerns... God does not require this evidence to know if the faith was sincere. He knew it was when He granted the everlasting life to the believer. James told his readers..."show
me". He did not say "show God".
cheers, Howie
So let me make this clear...
If Abraham was justified by faith is this right?
Was not Abraham our father
justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
James 2:21
Be sincere to yourself Williemac...
Our faith is not for man, is for GOD... towards man we preach the gospel not our good works... the jews were the ones who wanted to justify them selves towards man receiving glory from each other.
Of course, to be able to "unsee" this it takes formal training, I know that... it takes human rules to turn this into the opposite! That "method" is pure sin... the word of GOD is known by the Spirit not by "methods" or man "trainings".
The entire letter??
Wait and I'll show you more mistakes of James... yes the entire letter is full of mistakes.
It is impossible to have true faith without works.
So what happens? Who has faith looses free will over his works? If they are not an option but only a RESULT of something that is a gift (faith) than after faith we loose free will in our actions...
YOU DEFEND THIS?
Yes, I know James told them "show me", that's what Paul refer's to in his letter to the Colossus church.... and that's vanity.
Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink (message of James), or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath {days}: {in meat...: or, for eating and drinking} {respect: or, part}
Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body {is} of Christ.
Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, {beguile...: or, judge against you} {in a...: Gr. being a voluntary in humility}
And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God.
Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances, {rudiments: or, elements}
(Touch not; taste not; handle not;
Which all are to perish with the using
after the commandments and doctrines of men?
Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body; not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh. {neglecting: or, punishing, or, not sparing}
Colossenses 2:16-23
In this dissimulation even Peter fell in Antioch...
But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed.
For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the
circumcision.
And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation.
But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before {them} all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?
We {who are} Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles,
Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law (like the one's who came from JAMES preach), but by the faith of Jesus Christ (my present fight with you), even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
Gálatas 2:11-16
Dodo...
When a person is born-again, the Holy Spirit works inside the person, prompting the person to participate in godly works.
In
1 Samuel 16:7 , God tells the prophet Samuel, "
The Lord does not look at the things people look at. People look at the outward appearance, but the Lord looks at the heart."
God alone can look inside the human heart to see if a person's alleged faith is real.
All that we mere mortals can do is to look for outward signs that a person's alleged faith is real.
In his writings, James is telling us that such outward signs
will exist if a person's alleged faith is real.
No, that's not what James is saying, he's saying Abraham was justified by works and that faith doesn't save anyone without works with is the opposite of Paul's preaching.
And "
such outward signs will exist if a person's alleged faith is real" is not true too.
Works are not a reflection of faith... we do not recognize a Christian by his works but by his faith (reaction to the gospel when preached).
Do you think that the works of a Christian are better then the works of the atheist?
It would be grate if we deed so many good works has many atheists do... yet they do not believe in GOD.
Faith is in our spirit, works in our body, one has nothing to do with the other...
And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others: {that...: or, as being righteous}
Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men {are}, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as {his} eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a
sinner.
I tell you, this man went down to his house justified {rather} than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.
Lucas 18:9-14
Which of these came out justified? The one with works or the one WITHOUT works and full of sin?
Again, faith not only without works but WITH BAD WORKS EVEN.
And remember, this is Jesus talking to those who thought that good works is a sign or a prof of justice...
