Andy...
AndyBern said:
As James wrote, Abraham was declared righteous by God when he believed in him, not when he did the works. The works were only the evidence that what God had declared was true...
And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness:
This verse is not about Abraham being saved at the time he offered Isaac. It is about what God had done earlier in declaring Abraham righteous being proven true.
I am not against works. True faith will result in works, but works do not save. Faith does not save. Only God saves - only He can impute righteousness. And He does so in response to faith.
You're changing James's words.
That "And" comes from something... and that something is Abrahams works.
Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? {Seest...: or, Thou seest}
And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
James 2:21-23
James dissimulated this scripture, and you're dissimulating his.
Eltain...
Paul states that Abraham's works are not what is important, but his Faith, through which he was justified. He gives the physical example, showing a work that Abraham preformed because of his preexisting faith.
James states that without preexisting faith, Abraham would not have been able to do the work he was told to do. His works proved the faith he already had.
In both James' and Paul's message... The result of faith is works...
Yet both men are delivering slightly different messages... As I understand it...
...Paul says Abraham's works were not what God was looking at, but his faith...
...James says Abraham's works are a physical manifestation of faith... and that the 2 go together.
DAY...
Do you believe that the books of the Bible are merely the work of men or are they inspired by God?
If there is seeming contradiction, it is because of your limited understanding, not God's inspiration of the writers.
I am not giving you a simple answer because I don't have one. I know I do not understand everything, but I am certain that the presumption of declaring Scripture wrong is not how to learn. Jesus said "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord', will enter the kingdom of heaven, but those who do the will of my Father who is in heaven." (Matt 7:21). I believe I need to do both, believe and act.
Also, a little side question. All the references sited in many of the above posts say "the faith OF Jesus", not faith in Jesus. Are we saved by Jesus' faith or our own?
The catholic bible has more books than the protestant bible. Are those books word of GOD or man?
How do you differentiate the word of GOD from the word of man? Because someone told you so?
Do you accept those books has word of GOD? If not why not?
I say the letter of James is wrong because it's against the gospel and the glory of GOD not because I felt like... I I have showing one of his many mistakes, but no one admit that James might be wrong because "that's the word of GOD"...
What makes you say that this is the word of GOD? Because man selected it? Because they told you so?
HOW DO YOU DIFFERENTIATE WORD OF GOD FROM WORD OF MAN?
We're saved by the faith HE gives us... that's why it requires faith but at the same time it's a gift, if faith was a product of us than salvation it would not be a gift but a payment ... that's why election is undeniable.
If you recognize the gospel you'll end up in election.
JAMES...
Since there have been a number of excellent responses to your second question, I'd like to primarily address your first question, i.e., Are these man (sic) preaching the same gospel?
No, I don't believe the Apostles James and Paul preached the exact same gospel, at least with respect to many aspects of God's Law. Just as there are numerous doctrinal variances in the Church of Christ today there were certainly different schools of religious thought and practice in the first century Church.
First of all, before Johannes Gutenberg's invention of the printing press in the 13th century not many folks were able to own a complete copy of the sacred scriptures so there weren't many who were able to compare the differences between the teachings of Paul and James. The first century Church was composed of two primary Orthodox groups; the Churches in and around Jerusalem led by Peter, James and John and the Gentile churches founded by Paul, Barnabas and Silas scattered throughout the Mediterranean region.
Though these two sectors of Christianity were essentially identical regarding their beliefs in salvation only through belief in Christ and His propitiatory sacrifice on the Cross of Calvary, baptism, repentance, etc., there existed considerable differences regarding observance of the biblical Feast days, honoring the seventh day Sabbath, circumcision and many other matters of God's Law such as strict obedience to the scriptural definition of what constitutes clean and unclean food.
After the Fall of Jerusalem in 70AD, the Church in Jerusalem was widely dispersed and the Pauline gospel became the dominant Christian theology until the present day. However, as many Christians today begin to research the doctrine of the Lost Ten Tribes of Israel, there is a resurgence of believers who are discovering their true Israelite heritage with a subsequent revival of the faith practiced in the Church of Jerusalem and a renewed respect and obedience of God's Law.
Well, I saw no good answers... I saw who tried to change James's words, who tried to ignore the words of Paul about "without works", etc... good answers I saw none... If I was to accept those answers I would have to ignore what is written like almost all did, I would have trust more in them that in the scripture because none of their answers covers all, because every time they forge an answer to something I ask they HAVE to leave something out in order to validate that answer, and if I make look to another part they left out they forge another answer and forget about the first... so I can't accept none or I would be sinning against my consciousness.
About YOUR answer...
"No, I don't believe the Apostles James and Paul preached the exact same gospel,"
I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
As we said before, so say I now again, If any {man} preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
Gálatas 1:6-9
Do you know who was he talking about? Read what follows in this same letter which is about the mistake of justification by works:
For before that certain came
from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself,
fearing them which were of the circumcision.
And the
other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation.
But when I saw that
they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before {them} all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?
We {who are} Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles,
Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ (the fight with the ones that came from James), even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, {is} therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.
Gálatas 2:12-17