Jesus as a Stumblingstone

[Episkopos]

This is a crucial topic...as it regards us more than we think. Here it is helpful to get doctrinal things right in order to see this clearly.

Is. 8:14 And he shall be for a sanctuary; but for a stone of stumbling and for a rock of offence to both the houses of Israel, for a gin and for a snare to the inhabitants of Jerusalem.
15 And many among them shall stumble, and fall, and be broken, and be snared, and be taken.
16 Bind up the testimony, seal the law among my disciples.

Here we see Jesus as a stumblingstone to BOTH houses of Israel. That includes us. We are not of Judah...but of Ephraim.

(already some will be left behind in this discussion due to us being Israel and people getting overly caught up with ONE aspect of Israel...the natural Israel.)

 

[Episkopos]

Rom. 9:30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

Here we see the failing of ONE house of Israel...the Jews or natural Israel.

They stumbled at the law. Or more properly...they didn't see the purpose of the law.

The law is perfect...but people aren't. When Jesus came to Earth they didn't recognize that the law was fulfilled in Him. They missed the purpose of the law...that it points to Jesus Christ. The law was modeled on Him. He came to show us how life is to be lived....and in what power. So they stumbled over Him.

 

[Episkopos]

But Jesus is a stumblingstone to not just the Jews...but to us as well. It is BOTH houses that have trouble with Him.

We come at the problem from a different angle. But in both cases it is due to a lack of knowledge....about who Jesus is. Just as the Jews had trouble receiving Jesus...so do we...but in a different way. The Jews could not accept the divinity of Jesus. But we have a great difficulty with His humanity.

Rom. 10:1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.
2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believes.

This isn't exactly transportable to us since we have a different issue. But we too have a zeal...but a zeal that is not always according to knowledge. We also have a difficult time with understanding righteousness and the scale of what that means.

Peter says (2 Peter 1) ..."add to your faith virtue, and to virtue knowledge..."

Virtue gives us zeal...but that zeal should be with knowledge. Knowledge without zeal lies dormant....but we must add lnowledge to our zeal. Hence the purpose of this thread.

 

[Episkopos]

The Jews stumbled at the holiness of Jesus. They sought a righteousness that was without holiness.

But we stumble at the righteousness of Jesus. We (too often) seek a holiness without righteousness.

 

[Enoch111]

Here we see Jesus as a stumblingstone to BOTH houses of Israel. That includes us. We are not of Judah...but of Ephraim.

We should not confuse the Church with Israel (the 12 tribes), and God shows us the difference between the two entities in Revelation 7.

ISRAEL
And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel. (Rev 7:4)

Of the tribe of Manasses (Manasseh) were sealed twelve thousand. (v 6)
Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand (v 8)

Joseph had two sons -- Ephraim and Manasseh. In Revelation 7:8 we have "Joseph" instead of "Ephraim", but the meaning is clear. Those are two of the twelve tribes and have nothing to do with the Church per se.

THE CHURCH
After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands (Rev 7:9).

So we conclude that:

1. The Church is NOT Ephraim

2. Christ is a Stumbling Stone to UNBELIEVING JEWS (Israel) who are damned because of their unbelief.

 

[Episkopos]

We should not confuse the Church with Israel (the 12 tribes), and God shows us the difference between the two entities in Revelation 7.

ISRAEL
And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel. (Rev 7:4)

Of the tribe of Manasses (Manasseh) were sealed twelve thousand. (v 6)
Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand (v 8)

Joseph had two sons -- Ephraim and Manasseh. In Revelation 7:8 we have "Joseph" instead of "Ephraim", but the meaning is clear. Those are two of the twelve tribes and have nothing to do with the Church per se.

THE CHURCH
After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands (Rev 7:9).

So we conclude that:

1. The Church is NOT Ephraim

2. Christ is a Stumbling Stone to UNBELIEVING JEWS (Israel) who are damned because of their unbelief.

THAT is a quick conclusion! But if you did your homework...you would see that Ephraim is the "fulness of the Gentiles." (Gen. 48:19

There is a lot of evidence to show this.

Is Ruhamah not a reference to the Gentiles? Both Paul and Peter attest to this. Look to the book of Hosea to see how the nations are called the house of Israel...that comes together with Judah...then go to Ez. 37 to see that the 2 sticks come together under One shepherd. As Jesus said...i have sheep in another fold...and these together will be one.

You have to do some seeking.

 

[APAK]

@Episkopos ..

I do not know whether your OP and thread title is meant to address Ephraim, part of the House of Joseph, part of the Kingdom (House) of Israel, as all future Non-Israelite believers (Gen 48:19 – “…his seed will become a multitude of nation”) or that Jesus is stumbling stone to non-believers of any tribe, of any blood, then or now – or both.


It is very confusing to weed out the Ephraim tribe within the Northern Kingdom of Israel, and then to say they will become, even all the future Non-Israelite believers, and then apply this entire premise to Isaiah Chapter 8. This is false and misleading.

You are cramming two major concepts into one discussion. They should be introduced separately, discussed separately, and then brought together later if desired.

I would keep Isaiah Chapter 8 in context with its historical perspective when discussing it. And it does apply today.

After Solomon died the 12 tribes were divided up into two distinct areas of land. The southern Kingdom of Judah comprised of Judah, Benjamin (and Levi). The Northern Kingdom of Israel compromised the other 10 tribes including Ephraim under the House/tribe of Joseph.

Now Isaiah 8 speaks to the 2 Houses or Kingdoms of Israel and Judah, and not specifically to the tribe of Ephraim within the House of Israel.

Those were the times of the Assyrian invasions where the Northern house/Kingdom -Israel already lost their trust in their God completely and relied on man-made political ties with Syria against Assyria. They were wanting the house/Kingdom of Judah to follow suit.

Isaiah Chapter 8 can be applied to all believers and non-believers in God. The concept of having faith, trust and time for and in God and not in self, man-made alliances do apply to all men/women, then and today.

Yes, Christ is either a stumbling stone to any non-believer whether those under the law or under grace today.

Verse 14 is all about a believer having faith in God for salvation and security, the altar becomes the sanctuary. The unbeliever in times of trouble relies on self and other men, and the altar is literally a pile of worn-out, unsafe stones to fall over, as a major hindrance, that can crush them. Ironically their self-reliance over their reliance in God forced their demise, their spiritual and physical capture and deaths.

(Isa 8:13) Yahweh of Armies is who you must respect as holy. He is the one you must fear; He is the one you must dread.
(Isa 8:14) He will be a sanctuary for both houses of Israel, but He will be a trap and a snare for the inhabitants of Jerusalem.
(Isa 8:15) Many will stumble over it, fall, be broken, be snared, and be captured. (NEV)

Since Christ, believers rely on Christ as their rock of salvation. To unbelievers, Christ is an obstacle to stumble over and slow them down, as a reminder of weakness, to avoid.



Now is not today the epitome of self-reliance, separation from God, the modern world defiant attitude of progress and success? Most are all racing to their doom; their capture, harm and deaths as did Israel of old.

As Peter wrote:

(1Pe 2:6) Because it is contained in scripture: Look, I lay in Zion a chief corner stone, chosen, precious. And he that believes in him shall not stumble.

(1Pe 2:7) Therefore, for you that believe he is precious. But to those who are disobedient, the stone which the builders rejected has become the chief cornerstone,
(1Pe 2:8) a stone of stumbling and a rock of offence. For being disobedient, they stumble at the word; to which they also were appointed.
(1Pe 2:9) But you are an elect race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God's own possession, that you may show forth the excellence of Him who called you out of darkness into his marvellous light.
(1Pe 2:10) Who in times past were no people but now are the people of God. Who had not obtained mercy but now have obtained mercy. (ALL NEV)


Bless you,



APAK

 

[Enoch111]

You have to do some seeking.

I have studied the Scriptures carefully, and Romans 11 makes it clear that there will be a redeemed and restored Israel (12 tribes including Manasseh and Joseph/Ephraim) in the land of Israel AFTER the second coming of Christ.

The entire prophecy of Ezekiel confirms this, and puts to rest all speculation about the Church replacing Israel, or Ephraim becoming the Church.

And by the border of Naphtali, from the east side unto the west side, a portion for Manasseh. And by the border of Manasseh, from the east side unto the west side, a portion for Ephraim. (Ezekiel 48:4,5).

One of the biggest fallacies that has been promoted in Christendom is that the Church has replaced Israel. This originated in the Catholic Church, and remained unchallenged in all the Protestant churches, in spite of all the clear prophecies pertaining to a redeemed and restored Israel on earth.

Unbelieving Jews will be excluded, but a believing remnant will be under the reign of David (as prince) and Christ (as King of kings). So Christians are urged to carefully study all OT prophecies and rightly divide the Word of Truth.

However, during the Church Age, God makes no distinction between Jew and Gentile, and Israel has been judicially blinded for their rejection of their true Messiah -- the Lord Jesus Christ. Also, within the Church (the Body of Christ) God makes no ethnic distinctions whatsoever. Jews are not to isolate themselves from Gentiles but become Hebrew Christians.

 

[Episkopos]

I have studied the Scriptures carefully, and Romans 11 makes it clear that there will be a redeemed and restored Israel (12 tribes including Manasseh and Joseph/Ephraim) in the land of Israel AFTER the second coming of Christ.

The entire prophecy of Ezekiel confirms this, and puts to rest all speculation about the Church replacing Israel, or Ephraim becoming the Church.

And by the border of Naphtali, from the east side unto the west side, a portion for Manasseh. And by the border of Manasseh, from the east side unto the west side, a portion for Ephraim. (Ezekiel 48:4,5).

One of the biggest fallacies that has been promoted in Christendom is that the Church has replaced Israel. This originated in the Catholic Church, and remained unchallenged in all the Protestant churches, in spite of all the clear prophecies pertaining to a redeemed and restored Israel on earth.

Unbelieving Jews will be excluded, but a believing remnant will be under the reign of David (as prince) and Christ (as King of kings). So Christians are urged to carefully study all OT prophecies and rightly divide the Word of Truth.

However, during the Church Age, God makes no distinction between Jew and Gentile, and Israel has been judicially blinded for their rejection of their true Messiah -- the Lord Jesus Christ. Also, within the Church (the Body of Christ) God makes no ethnic distinctions whatsoever. Jews are not to isolate themselves from Gentiles but become Hebrew Christians.

Read Hosea. The OT scriptures were the bible in the days of the early church. They are prophetic. Ephraim has many warnings...in this age. No need for warnings in the next age.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

The Jews stumbled at the holiness of Jesus. They sought a righteousness that was without holiness.

But we stumble at the righteousness of Jesus. We (too often) seek a holiness without righteousness.

Could you define these two words? Righteousness and holiness?

 

[stunnedbygrace]

@Episkopos ..

I do not know whether your OP and thread title is meant to address Ephraim, part of the House of Joseph, part of the Kingdom (House) of Israel, as all future Non-Israelite believers (Gen 48:19 – “…his seed will become a multitude of nation”) or that Jesus is stumbling stone to non-believers of any tribe, of any blood, then or now – or both.


It is very confusing to weed out the Ephraim tribe within the Northern Kingdom of Israel, and then to say they will become, even all the future Non-Israelite believers, and then apply this entire premise to Isaiah Chapter 8. This is false and misleading.

You are cramming two major concepts into one discussion. They should be introduced separately, discussed separately, and then brought together later if desired.

I would keep Isaiah Chapter 8 in context with its historical perspective when discussing it. And it does apply today.

After Solomon died the 12 tribes were divided up into two distinct areas of land. The southern Kingdom of Judah comprised of Judah, Benjamin (and Levi). The Northern Kingdom of Israel compromised the other 10 tribes including Ephraim under the House/tribe of Joseph.

Now Isaiah 8 speaks to the 2 Houses or Kingdoms of Israel and Judah, and not specifically to the tribe of Ephraim within the House of Israel.

Those were the times of the Assyrian invasions where the Northern house/Kingdom -Israel already lost their trust in their God completely and relied on man-made political ties with Syria against Assyria. They were wanting the house/Kingdom of Judah to follow suit.

Isaiah Chapter 8 can be applied to all believers and non-believers in God. The concept of having faith, trust and time for and in God and not in self, man-made alliances do apply to all men/women, then and today.

Yes, Christ is either a stumbling stone to any non-believer whether those under the law or under grace today.

Verse 14 is all about a believer having faith in God for salvation and security, the altar becomes the sanctuary. The unbeliever in times of trouble relies on self and other men, and the altar is literally a pile of worn-out, unsafe stones to fall over, as a major hindrance, that can crush them. Ironically their self-reliance over their reliance in God forced their demise, their spiritual and physical capture and deaths.

(Isa 8:13) Yahweh of Armies is who you must respect as holy. He is the one you must fear; He is the one you must dread.
(Isa 8:14) He will be a sanctuary for both houses of Israel, but He will be a trap and a snare for the inhabitants of Jerusalem.
(Isa 8:15) Many will stumble over it, fall, be broken, be snared, and be captured. (NEV)

Since Christ, believers rely on Christ as their rock of salvation. To unbelievers, Christ is an obstacle to stumble over and slow them down, as a reminder of weakness, to avoid.



Now is not today the epitome of self-reliance, separation from God, the modern world defiant attitude of progress and success? Most are all racing to their doom; their capture, harm and deaths as did Israel of old.

As Peter wrote:

(1Pe 2:6) Because it is contained in scripture: Look, I lay in Zion a chief corner stone, chosen, precious. And he that believes in him shall not stumble.

(1Pe 2:7) Therefore, for you that believe he is precious. But to those who are disobedient, the stone which the builders rejected has become the chief cornerstone,
(1Pe 2:8) a stone of stumbling and a rock of offence. For being disobedient, they stumble at the word; to which they also were appointed.
(1Pe 2:9) But you are an elect race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God's own possession, that you may show forth the excellence of Him who called you out of darkness into his marvellous light.
(1Pe 2:10) Who in times past were no people but now are the people of God. Who had not obtained mercy but now have obtained mercy. (ALL NEV)


Bless you,



APAK

I don't understand what the man says about us being ephraim, but I do know those with circumcised hearts are true jews. I do not understand what he has said about Ephraim, but we ARE true jews according to the apostle.

 

[APAK]

I don't understand what the man says about us being ephraim, but I do know those with circumcised hearts are true jews. I do not understand what he has said about Ephraim, but we ARE true jews according to the apostle.

stunnedbygrace:

It’s a relatively new Messianic concept. It goes like this: Ephraim being one of the lost 10 tribes of the Northern Kingdom, the major significant tribe, is now being recognized as being found around the world especially in America and Europe as non-modern-day Jews and believers in Christ the true Israel. They are considered part of the true ‘church’ and Israel of God and even the complete body of the physical and spiritual Jewish believers embedded in all non-Jewish spiritual Israel.

I do not like using the term ‘Gentile’ because it does not exist or is not valid today because ‘all’ folks are the same, spiritually, and because, there are no physical (virtually none) blood-lined Jews living and calling themselves Jews today and all genuine Jews since Christ’s time assimilated into the nations before 1000 AD. Today we see imposter blood-lined Jews in the political State of Israel and especially in Western Europe. Actually, I did make threads on both of these subjects, of the modern Jew and the term ‘Gentile.’ Got off your query a bit although both of these subjects, are definitely connected.

My conclusion on this theory is that Ephraim is the major source for true spiritual Israel today. It is not the only source however. They are not the “fullness of the non-Jews.” This expression is about when the concept of nations developed and were first politically recognized as independent nations – by 1000 AD as a rough time-frame. That’s is when the Jews were all eventually saved into Christ, that were going to be saved. Not in some near-or distant future. There are no true blood-lined Israelites to save today, they are essentially all converts from Khazaria (Another long thread). And then they speak of a 3rd temple. Is this wishful thinking or what? What are they these phony Israeli-Israelites going to do to honor God? Sacrifice animals once again and reintroduce the Law to themselves and even everyone else?

Both believing Jews of old (not those self-styled and Zionist types of today) that are not readily known and visible today because they are embedded in the nations, are spiritually alongside non-Jewish believers and branches from around the world, of the same spiritual tree and are true Israel for the Kingdom of God. This is the true ecclesia of God and not the ‘kirk’ (building(s)) invented later after Christ.

Bless you,

APAK

 

[Episkopos]

Could you define these two words? Righteousness and holiness?

There are 2 kinds of righteousness. Ours and God's.

Our righteousness consists of....humility, clean hands and a pure heart. (To God, repentance is an act of righteousness.) An attitude of surrender and submission....and finally a loving disposition. Practicing hospitality and charity.

God's righteousness; is a gift from Him that conforms to holiness. It is God's character working through us.

Holiness: God's righteousness is in holiness. The presence of God.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I can't understand that epi. I thought I was humble. He let me take a bad fall to show me i was not. Humility was not my righteousness. Whatever humility i have gained was through Him. The humiltyy i thought I had was not humility at all. It was self deceit. It really was filthy rags and dishonesty. It was pride insisting it was humble. The good news is that now I walk in truth about my lack and ask Him for what I lack instead of pretending to be good and humble. I don't think humility is my righteousness but rather His. Have i got something mixed up?

 

[Episkopos]

I can't understand that epi. I thought I was humble. He let me take a bad fall to show me i was not. Humility was not my righteousness. Whatever humility i have gained was through Him. The humiltyy i thought I had was not humility at all. It was self deceit. It really was filthy rags and dishonesty. It was pride insisting it was humble. The good news is that now I walk in truth about my lack and ask Him for what I lack instead of pretending to be good and humble. I don't think humility is my righteousness but rather His. Have i got something mixed up?

As a disciple we are not trying to be justified by our own acts...but neither can we leave them off. We are seeking to enter into God's level of righteousness. We are seeking to walk in His power. It is available to us by faith.

Humility, however, is a moving target.

We can't judge the details of what we do. The main thing is to walk in a way that is pleasing to God giving thanks always in the Lord.

A humble person doesn't think he is humble. A righteous person doesn't consider himself humble.

But when we walk in holiness we know it isn't us. It isn't by our own strength.

 

[bbyrd009]

of all nations

which the twelve tribes were diasporaed to already, see?

 

[Episkopos]

"APAK, post: 435141, member: 7755"]stunnedbygrace:

It’s a relatively new Messianic concept.

Actually Messianics hate any mention of Gentiles in regard to Israel.

It goes like this: Ephraim being one of the lost 10 tribes of the Northern Kingdom, the major significant tribe, is now being recognized as being found around the world especially in America and Europe as non-modern-day Jews and believers in Christ the true Israel. They are considered part of the true ‘church’ and Israel of God and even the complete body of the physical and spiritual Jewish believers embedded in all non-Jewish spiritual Israel.

Ephraim is spiritual Israel among the nations.

I do not like using the term ‘Gentile’ because it does not exist or is not valid today because ‘all’ folks are the same, spiritually, and because, there are no physical (virtually none) blood-lined Jews living and calling themselves Jews today and all genuine Jews since Christ’s time assimilated into the nations before 1000 AD. Today we see imposter blood-lined Jews in the political State of Israel and especially in Western Europe. Actually, I did make threads on both of these subjects, of the modern Jew and the term ‘Gentile.’ Got off your query a bit although both of these subjects, are definitely connected.

The irony is that the Jews establishing a nation called "Israel"...makes them a "Goy"...or nation.

My conclusion on this theory is that Ephraim is the major source for true spiritual Israel today. It is not the only source however. They are not the “fullness of the non-Jews.” This expression is about when the concept of nations developed and were first politically recognized as independent nations – by 1000 AD as a rough time-frame. That’s is when the Jews were all eventually saved into Christ, that were going to be saved. Not in some near-or distant future. There are no true blood-lined Israelites to save today, they are essentially all converts from Khazaria (Another long thread). And then they speak of a 3rd temple. Is this wishful thinking or what? What are they these phony Israeli-Israelites going to do to honor God? Sacrifice animals once again and reintroduce the Law to themselves and even everyone else?

This is not about blood lineage.

Both believing Jews of old (not those self-styled and Zionist types of today) that are not readily known and visible today because they are embedded in the nations, are spiritually alongside non-Jewish believers and branches from around the world, of the same spiritual tree and are true Israel for the Kingdom of God. This is the true ecclesia of God and not the ‘kirk’ (building(s)) invented later after Christ.

Bless you,

APAK

The seed of Ephraim was scattered to the winds...so that they were "sown" among all nations.

Zech 8:23 "Thus says the LORD of hosts, 'In those days ten men from all the nations will grasp the garment of a Jew, saying, "Let us go with you, for we have heard that God is with you."'"

10 men from ALL the nations...not 10 men from 10 nations... These represent the 10 lost northern tribes of Israel that were scattered among all nations and tongues. This makes sonship possible for all men. This is the restoration of Israel ...unto the "fulness of the nations" which is Ephraim...Ephraim represents the 10 northern tribes.

Peace

 

[Enoch111]

Read Hosea. The OT scriptures were the bible in the days of the early church. They are prophetic. Ephraim has many warnings...in this age. No need for warnings in the next age.

I believe you are a little confused about the whole matter.

 

[Episkopos]

I believe you are a little confused about the whole matter.

Really? How so?

 

[bbyrd009]

"and they said 'we will build us a tower, lest we be scattered'"

lol
let's not forget we each have a different definition for 'tree' ok
i am confused, yes