Jesus is God

[PS95]

It seemed like you were posting conflicting verses.
I don't half read posts....
I thought you were saying that you're a JW.
I don't read each and every post on a thread so I don't really know what you believe..
I only know what you write to ME.

I'm sorry for that. Maybe I should go edit it. I have been battling Jws on here often. Perhaps I assumed you knew that.

This makes me happy.
No problem for me.


Right.
And it meant unique even back at the beginning.
None of the ECFs believed Jesus was created....

This is where you don't understand quite right. I can help you with this. It will make it easier.. Of course no EFC's taught that the Son was created. I don't believe that either.

Right.
Even though I don't know Greek (Koine or otherwise).

No. I don't only know MONO. You're assuming this.


Perhaps you'd care to share your knowledge?

I would consider it- I just hate all of the interruptions from the cults. There is nowhere on here to just talk with believers. Very frustrating,. It makes threads go forever and who reads those? All it does is cause strife.

I DID say that I also have a problem with the phrase.

I'm sorry that I misunderstood and believed you to be a JW.

I accept your apology. Thank you. It was a very dark time in my life. I was raised in it. Horrible.

And, I can't find your post now..but you stated to me that I believe a person has to understand what begotten means to be a Christian.
No. I've NEVER stated this.
In fact, discussion about this word is totally a waste of time.

I did edited it today but I don't think that was quite the wording.. I'm not even sure. I edited it because I had been under attack and I prayed and the Lord strengthened me. I have insight that helps me to understand the trinity although I am not sure if it's mainstream. Could be but I haven't found it. I find it odd that isn't mainstream...

What I state is this:
A person is free to believe whatever he wishes to believe...
but to have the word CHRISTIAN under his name,,,he must adhere to Christian beliefs.
I feel strongly about this and repeat it many times on all forums.

I agree for the most part. But the trinity is a tough one and there are people that I consider Christians who don't understand it. While they don't reject it flat out- they don't understand it either so how can they adhere? They're fence sitters.. My point is people are in different places in their walk and an understanding of the trinity is not first for many. It comes later for many.
Actively fighting against it and lowering the Word to a creature is a whole other ball of wax.

This is not saying that non-christians cannot be saved...
but only that definite beliefs allow one to be defined as Christian.
If those beliefs are not present...then how could one possibly define themselves as Christian???

I don't know how non-Christians can be saved. We must be born again.

 

[MonoBiblical]

there are other gods who are false gods- not the creator- & some called gods who also are not the creator. We can NOT say that about the Word. NOTHING was created without HIM.
Justin Martyr certainly did identify the Son as YHWH. He also saw separateness. He said that . and -- also as begotten, messenger, God, etc.. Fire from Fire- Justin is the EFC that lays out much of what is the trinity today. He doesn't do it all in one spot. Much of it is in Trypho. He was obviously just as confused as to how to sew it all up as one God as we can be today-- but it's all there in a bit of a basic blueprint along with the scriptures and what he had been taught. The trinity creed was a progression. I don't have a problem with that. It's good to try to define what we believe as truth for sake of unity and against those who seek to divide us.

He identified 3 sperate gods as the creator. While the sons of god, i.e., angels are truly gods, but some die like men, and none are the MOST HIGH.

Fire from fire is a Heraclitean Stoic concept of a divine fire pervading the planet. He seems to be a Babylonian who worshipped the sun in the sky.

 

[MonoBiblical]

. He did say two gods but he also said the Son was called Lord of Hosts. He was making a distinction between persons (distinct in number) of Father and Son by saying 2 gods... otherwise he would not have called the Son, Lord of Hosts. He understood like we do that the Son is all of those things.. messenger, Lord of Hosts etc.
What he was NOT saying is that the son was an angel aka created being- He says begotten fire from fire. He only makes his distinction btwn begotten and unbegotten- This is the trinity

It is the beginning of the trinity misinterpretation. He influenced by Ignatius who was influenced by Valentinus.

 

[PS95]

He identified 3 sperate gods as the creator. The sons of god, i.e., angels are truly gods, but some die like men, and none are the MOST HIGH.

I have all of Justin's writings and I have never come away with that impression. He knew angels are created and never did He say that about God's son. Never. He said he was called Lord of Hosts. that is saying- The Son is called Jehovah. Nowhere does he say creatures created anything.
I am not going to waste time on ridiculousness!

 

[PS95]

It is the beginning of the trinity misinterpretation. He influenced by Ignatius who was influenced by Valentinus.

I think I already told you that I do not read anything from Ignatius. It's too spurious.

 

[PS95]

@GodsGrace You see the interruptions here? Maybe I should just message you instead and maybe consider inviting Truly also?

 

[MonoBiblical]

He said he was called Lord of Hosts.

You have to do better than that.

I think I already told you that I do not read anything from Ignatius. It's too spurious.

He is a Valentinian who was converted to something by Polycarp.

 

[PS95]

You have to do better than that.

He is a Valentinian who was converted to something by Polycarp.

look, clearly you don't know what you are talking about. lol

 

[MonoBiblical]

look, clearly you don't know what you are talking about. lol

Polycarp doesn't call Valentinus by Valentinus, but rather Cerinthus. I gave you quotes which prove Justin Marty like Polycarp didn't believe in the trinity. Like Modalism, it was not unanimous.

 

[GodsGrace]

Justin Martyr On The Logos

There is an intensification of Logos christology among the early apologists especially with Justin Martyr. Justin makes no explicit mention of the Fourth

www.patheos.com

Justin argues that the Logos is “another God and Lord under the Creator of all things, who is also called an Angel, because he proclaims to man whatever the Creator of the world— above whom there is no other God— wishes to reveal to them” (Dial. 56.4; cf. 55.1; 61.1; 128.4; 129.4). This angel “called God, is distinct from God, the Creator; distinct, that is, in number, but not in mind” (Dial. 56.11). A God beneath God is supported by way of citations to Ps 45:6-7 and 110:1 (Dial. 56.14). Justin identifies God with the Angel of the Lord, this Angel with the pre-incarnate Christ, who appeared to Moses in the fire (Dial. 57-60; 127.4; 1 Apol. 62.3-4; 63.7-8, 17).[8]

Finally !

See Mono, the above is why it's important to post SOURCE.

Here is what Justin is saying...exactly what I said in a post on here - am not going to look for it.

The OT sometimes shows that there are two powers speaking at the same time...
and they are BOTH GOD.

He states EXACTLY the same verses I stated...

Exodus 3:2-6
2 There the angel of the LORD appeared to him in a blazing fire from the middle of a bush. Moses stared in amazement. Though the bush was engulfed in flames, it didn’t burn up.
3 “This is amazing,” Moses said to himself. “Why isn’t that bush burning up? I must go see it.”
4 When the LORD saw Moses coming to take a closer look, God called to him from the middle of the bush, “Moses! Moses!” “Here I am!” Moses replied.
5 “Do not come any closer,” the LORD warned. “Take off your sandals, for you are standing on holy ground.
6 I am the God of your father —the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.” When Moses heard this, he covered his face because he was afraid to look at God.


Who was the angel? (messenger).
GOD replied from the burning bush.

There is only One God according to the OT Shema.
But there appear to be 2 powers at times.

Jesus was that other power.
Whenever God is SEEN in the OT....as a person....
it is Jesus and not God Father who is purely spirit.

 

[MonoBiblical]

Finally !

See Mono, the above is why it's important to post SOURCE.

Here is what Justin is saying...exactly what I said in a post on here - am not going to look for it.

The OT sometimes shows that there are two powers speaking at the same time...
and they are BOTH GOD.

He states EXACTLY the same verses I stated...

Exodus 3:2-6
2 There the angel of the LORD appeared to him in a blazing fire from the middle of a bush. Moses stared in amazement. Though the bush was engulfed in flames, it didn’t burn up.
3 “This is amazing,” Moses said to himself. “Why isn’t that bush burning up? I must go see it.”
4 When the LORD saw Moses coming to take a closer look, God called to him from the middle of the bush, “Moses! Moses!” “Here I am!” Moses replied.
5 “Do not come any closer,” the LORD warned. “Take off your sandals, for you are standing on holy ground.
6 I am the God of your father —the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.” When Moses heard this, he covered his face because he was afraid to look at God.


Who was the angel? (messenger).
GOD replied from the burning bush.

There is only One God according to the OT Shema.
But there appear to be 2 powers at times.

Jesus was that other power.
Whenever God is SEEN in the OT....as a person....
it is Jesus and not God Father who is purely spirit.

You didn't bother to check Justin's Dialogue With Tryphno.

 

[GodsGrace]

Polycarp doesn't call Valentinus by Valentinus, but rather Cerinthus. I gave you quotes which prove Justin Marty like Polycarp didn't believe in the trinity. Like Modalism, it was not unanimous.

Polycarp was a disciple of John.
John presented Jesus as God.
The ECFs believed Jesus was God but the language had not been introduced just yet.
WHO this Jesus was took some time....no internet or phones back then.
Things/ideas moved slowly.

Polycarp did call Jesus God, but, apparently some modern day writers would like to erase his statement from historical documents.
However, even THEY state:


But let us not be misled into thinking that Polycarp didn’t view Jesus as divine simply because he didn’t call him God.

We can see his recognition of Jesus as divine in his attitude and reverence for him.

In 6.2 we see Polycarp speaking of asking forgiveness from the Lord. Mark 2:7 // Luke 5:21 immediately come to mind here.

Likewise, in 10:2 we find Polycarp exhorting the Philippians to maintain an irreproachable standard of conduct so that the Lord may not be blasphemed.

A chapter later in 11.4 he prays that the Lord grant Valens and his wife repentance (cf. 2Tim. 2:25).

Even in the original passage we examined Polycarp acknowledges the eternality of the Son calling him “the eternal high priest” (sempiternus pontifex). I think it’s very clear that Polycarp held Jesus in the highest regard and on a plane equal to that of the Father.

source: Did Polycarp Call Jesus God?



Please note that...

Polycarp believed Jesus to be divine because:

1. Polycarp asked forgiveness from the Lord. WHO can forgive sin? GOD.

2. Polycarp exhorts the Philippians not to blaspheme the Lord.
Can a mere man be blasphemed?

3. Polycarp prays to the Lord that He grant Valens repentance.
Can a mere man do this?

4. Polycarp proclaims Jesus to be eternal.

5. Polycarp held Jesus on the same plane as the Father.

 

[GodsGrace]

You didn't bother to check Justin's Dialogue With Tryphno.

Too much to check Mono.
And I'm not here to convince you that Jesus is God.
Only the Holy Spirit can do that.

However, you have made some incorrect statements and these need correcting.

 

[PS95]

Polycarp doesn't call Valentinus by Valentinus, but rather Cerinthus. I gave you quotes which prove Justin Marty like Polycarp didn't believe in the trinity. Like Modalism, it was not unanimous.

I am very familiar with Cerinthus- He sounded more like a Jw than anything. A lot of similarities.
Are you Jw, Christadelphian..what?
Your quotes are just that..-quotes- and who can't do that? He wrote a lot! You need to take it all into understanding. You are not. I never said he taught a trinity in the same exact way we understand it but he absolutely laid groundwork for it.
As I said- the trinity was a progression.-- yes there were various thoughts early on- that was the very reason for the doctrine.. duh. unity.
There is a whole lot more to being a Christian than to keep arguing this with you.

 

[MonoBiblical]

Finally !

See Mono, the above is why it's important to post SOURCE.

Here is what Justin is saying...exactly what I said in a post on here - am not going to look for it.

The OT sometimes shows that there are two powers speaking at the same time...
and they are BOTH GOD.

He states EXACTLY the same verses I stated...

Exodus 3:2-6
2 There the angel of the LORD appeared to him in a blazing fire from the middle of a bush. Moses stared in amazement. Though the bush was engulfed in flames, it didn’t burn up.
3 “This is amazing,” Moses said to himself. “Why isn’t that bush burning up? I must go see it.”
4 When the LORD saw Moses coming to take a closer look, God called to him from the middle of the bush, “Moses! Moses!” “Here I am!” Moses replied.
5 “Do not come any closer,” the LORD warned. “Take off your sandals, for you are standing on holy ground.
6 I am the God of your father —the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.” When Moses heard this, he covered his face because he was afraid to look at God.


Who was the angel? (messenger).
GOD replied from the burning bush.

There is only One God according to the OT Shema.
But there appear to be 2 powers at times.

Jesus was that other power.
Whenever God is SEEN in the OT....as a person....
it is Jesus and not God Father who is purely spirit.

Then I replied, "I shall attempt to persuade you, since you have understood the Scriptures, [of the truth] of what I say, that there is, and that there is said to be, another God and Lord subject to the Maker of all things; who is also called an Angel, because He announces to men whatsoever the Maker of all things -- above whom there is no other God -- wishes to announce to them." And quoting once more the previous passage, I asked Trypho, "Do you think that God appeared to Abraham under the oak in Mamre, as the Scripture asserts?"

 

[GodsGrace]

You didn't bother to check Justin's Dialogue With Tryphno.

Besides,,,,I had listed several ECFs and their belief that Jesus is God.

You seem to be obsessed with Justin for your own reasons...
but your idea still falls short.

 

[GodsGrace]

Then I replied, "I shall attempt to persuade you, since you have understood the Scriptures, [of the truth] of what I say, that there is, and that there is said to be, another God and Lord subject to the Maker of all things; who is also called an Angel, because He announces to men whatsoever the Maker of all things -- above whom there is no other God -- wishes to announce to them." And quoting once more the previous passage, I asked Trypho, "Do you think that God appeared to Abraham under the oak in Mamre, as the Scripture asserts?"

Same idea Mono.
ONE GOD
TWO POWERS.

Which is pretty much what the Trinity defines.

 

[GodsGrace]

@MonoBiblical

post 550 made you mad?
How come?

Scripture upsets you?

The very idea that Justin is putting forth is upsetting to you?

YOU are the one that has posted it !

 

[MonoBiblical]

I am very familiar with Cerinthus- He sounded more like a Jw than anything. A lot of similarities.
Are you Jw, Christadelphian..what?
Your quotes are just that..-quotes- and who can't do that? He wrote a lot! You need to take it all into understanding. You are not. I never said he taught a trinity in the same exact way we understand it but he absolutely laid groundwork for it.
As I said- the trinity was a progression.-- yes there were various thoughts early on- that was the very reason for the doctrine.. duh. unity.
There is a whole lot more to being a Christian than to keep arguing this with you.

The doctrine came about because of defects in the Tenakh which came about after the temple was destroyed. After Israel was raptured and destroyed, scribes smoking weed in the Babylonian area thought they would change the prophetical writings to support Akiba and his fake messiah.

 

[GodsGrace]

Then I replied, "I shall attempt to persuade you, since you have understood the Scriptures, [of the truth] of what I say, that there is, and that there is said to be, another God and Lord subject to the Maker of all things; who is also called an Angel, because He announces to men whatsoever the Maker of all things -- above whom there is no other God -- wishes to announce to them." And quoting once more the previous passage, I asked Trypho, "Do you think that God appeared to Abraham under the oak in Mamre, as the Scripture asserts?"

Great proof for the Trinity!
The other God is called an angel....
Great.
Thanks for posting.