Jesus is God

[GodsGrace]

So, do you believe Jesus and apostles were wrong? If that is the case, why to even wait for fulfillment? They could be wrong about anything.

You mean Jesus already came back and we're living in the New Jerusalem??

Wow.
Sure doesn't feel like it here.
Feels like problems all over.

And here I thought the New Jerusalem was going to be a fantastic place!

And gold costs a lot.
Don't see any streets lined up with it.

Animals don't seem to be getting along too well either.

To say nothing of humans!

 

[HealthyShape]

You mean Jesus already came back and we're living in the New Jerusalem??

I mean both Jesus and apostles were teaching that they are living in the last days and everything will be fulfilled in their generation.

It is not about me, we all have the same Bible, more or less (some textual differences, but not in this). I just decided to not ignore those verses and not pretend they do not exist or are some kind of inconvenient mistakes from them we should just skip over.

 

[GodsGrace]

I mean both Jesus and apostles were teaching that they are living in the last days and everything will be fulfilled in their generation.

It is not about me, we all have the same Bible, more or less (some textual differences, but not in this). I just decided to not ignore those verses and not pretend they do not exist or are some kind of inconvenient mistakes from them we should just skip over.

You're correct.
Thessalonians was written to tell them to stop waiting around for Jesus to return and get on with life.

BUT
Does this mean that Jesus returned in 70AD?
Or does it mean that some of His prophesies were for 70AD (the destruction of the temple and a stop to sacrifices)
and some were meant for the end times?

Have you ever done a study on this or is it easier to just believe something that cannot possibly be true?
Sincere question.

 

[HealthyShape]

Thessalonians was written to tell them to stop waiting around for Jesus to return and get on with life.

Nope. The opposite is true, throughout the New Testament, Christians were warned the day was coming in their life time. Both by Jesus and all the apostles.

"But this is that having been spoken by the prophet Joel: 'And it will be in the last days.."
Acts 2:16 (Peter)

"Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come."
1 Cor. 4:5 (Paul)

"The time that remains is short. From now on those who have wives should live as if they do not...For this world in its present form is passing away."
1 Cor. 7:29 (Paul)

..the ends of the ages have come.
1 Cor 10:11 (Paul)

"Then we the living who remain shall be caught away together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."
1 The 4:17 (Paul)

"...and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. "
1 The 5:23 (Paul)

Who was manifest in these last times for you
1 Pt 1:20 (Peter)

The end of all things is at hand.
1 Pt 4:7 (Peter)

It is the last hour
1 John 2:18 (John)

"Therefore be patient, brethren, until the coming of the Lord.
The farmer waits for the precious produce of the soil, being patient about it, until it gets the early and late rains.
You too be patient; strengthen your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is near.
Do not complain, brethren, against one another, so that you yourselves may not be judged; behold, the Judge is standing right at the door."
Jm 5:7-9 (James)

But in these last days He has spoken to us by His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, and through whom He made the universe.
Heb 1:2 (Possibly Apollos? or Paul)

The revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place.
Rev 1:1 (John)

This generation shall not pass, till all these things be done.
Mk 13:30 (Jesus in Mark)

"Truly I tell you, you will not finish going through the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes."
Mt 10:23 (Jesus to disciples)

"I say to all of you: From now on you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven"
Mt 26:64 (Jesus to Sanhedrin)

This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.
Lk 21:31 (Luke)

Have you ever done a study on this or is it easier to just believe something that cannot possibly be true?
Sincere question.

I did.

 

[GodsGrace]

Nope. The opposite is true, throughout the New Testament, Christians were warned the day was coming in their life time. Both by Jesus and all the apostles.

Funny stuff.
Read up on Thessalonians and why Paul wrote to them.
I'm not debating whether or not water is wet.

"But this is that having been spoken by the prophet Joel: 'And it will be in the last days.."
Acts 2:16 (Peter)

"Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come."
1 Cor. 4:5 (Paul)

"The time that remains is short. From now on those who have wives should live as if they do not...For this world in its present form is passing away."
1 Cor. 7:29 (Paul)

..the ends of the ages have come.
1 Cor 10:11 (Paul)

"Then we the living who remain shall be caught away together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."
1 The 4:17 (Paul)

"...and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. "
1 The 5:23 (Paul)

Who was manifest in these last times for you
1 Pt 1:20 (Peter)

The end of all things is at hand.
1 Pt 4:7 (Peter)

It is the last hour
1 John 2:18 (John)

"Therefore be patient, brethren, until the coming of the Lord.
The farmer waits for the precious produce of the soil, being patient about it, until it gets the early and late rains.
You too be patient; strengthen your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is near.
Do not complain, brethren, against one another, so that you yourselves may not be judged; behold, the Judge is standing right at the door."
Jm 5:7-9 (James)

But in these last days He has spoken to us by His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, and through whom He made the universe.
Heb 1:2 (Possibly Apollos? or Paul)

The revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place.
Rev 1:1 (John)

This generation shall not pass, till all these things be done.
Mk 13:30 (Jesus in Mark)

"Truly I tell you, you will not finish going through the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes."
Mt 10:23 (Jesus to disciples)

"I say to all of you: From now on you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven"
Mt 26:64 (Jesus to Sanhedrin)

This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.
Lk 21:31 (Luke)


I did.

No you did NOT or you'd know that Jesus spoke about different time periods.

Some of His parables concerned the immediate time.
Some concerned the fall of Jerusalem in 70AD.
Some were about the end times...the end of the world.

 

[HealthyShape]

Funny stuff.
Read up on Thessalonians and why Paul wrote to them.
I'm not debating whether or not water is wet.

Please, read at least the verses I posted, many of them are from Paul and some of them even to Thessalonians. Paul directed Christians to even ignore their spouses, because the time was so short.

No you did NOT or you'd know that Jesus spoke about different time periods.

Ah, so your question was NOT sincere, you did not care about my answer.

Some of His parables concerned the immediate time.
Some concerned the fall of Jerusalem in 70AD.
Some were about the end times...the end of the world.

No, Jesus said it clearly:
This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.
Lk 21:31

All, not just something.

And apostles said it clearly too, they expected the end of the world and Jesus to come back in their life time. Read the verses I posted in the previous post so I do not need to repeat them over and over again.

 

[GodsGrace]

Please, read at least the verses I posted, many of them are from Paul and some of them even to Thessalonians. Paul directed Christians to even ignore their spouses, because the time was so short.


Ah, so your question was NOT sincere, you did not care about my answer.


No, Jesus said it clearly:
This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.
Lk 21:31

All, not just something.

And apostles said it clearly too, they expected the end of the world and Jesus to come back in their life time. Read the verses I posted in the previous post so I do not need to repeat them over and over again.

I agreed with you.
I said that Paul wrote to the thessalonians to tell them to continue with their life....
However, we must admit that Jesus did say that no one knows the time....
in Jesus' humanity, even HE did not know the time of the end.

What I'm saying, and that you glossed over,
is that at times Jesus was speaking about the immediate time frame that Israel was in,
and at other times He was speaking about the REAL end times when the world would end.

You can believe the world ended in 70AD,,,I said I'm not willing to debate this.
It's a really odd belief...but Christianity has adopted some really odd beliefs -

Some of your verses can be easily explained...
and some cannot.

I'll go over a few....

 

[GodsGrace]

Nope. The opposite is true, throughout the New Testament, Christians were warned the day was coming in their life time. Both by Jesus and all the apostles.

"But this is that having been spoken by the prophet Joel: 'And it will be in the last days.."
Acts 2:16 (Peter)

Acts 2:16 is speaking about the end of the world.
The Day of the Lord is the end of the world.
As I had stated...Jesus' remarks could mean the "near" future or the end.

In the New Testament, the "day of the Lord" may also refer to the writer's own times, or it may refer to predicted events in a later age of earth's history including the final judgment[2] and the World to Come. The expression may also have an extended meaning in referring to both the first and second comings of Jesus Christ.

Source: Wikepedia

"Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come."
1 Cor. 4:5 (Paul)

This, IMHO, refers to the second coming of the Lord.

If you believe He has already made the second appearance...
of course these verses will be seen by you in a different understanding.

"The time that remains is short. From now on those who have wives should live as if they do not...For this world in its present form is passing away."
1 Cor. 7:29 (Paul)

You must have the wrong verse...

..the ends of the ages have come.
1 Cor 10:11 (Paul)

Paul is saying that some were taught at the beginning...
and some of the events did happen...see verses 5-10

But now it is repeated for the end of the ages....
question is: What is an age??

"Then we the living who remain shall be caught away together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."
1 The 4:17 (Paul)

WHEN Jesus comes back, at the end of the world...
those living...whoever they are- Paul is using a form of speech, incl himself....
will be caught up first.
WHO was caught up in 70AD?
Any history of this catastrophic and incredible event?

"...and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. "
1 The 5:23 (Paul)

Not sure what this means.

Who was manifest in these last times for you
1 Pt 1:20 (Peter)

The end of all things is at hand.
1 Pt 4:7 (Peter)

It is the last hour
1 John 2:18 (John)

"Therefore be patient, brethren, until the coming of the Lord.
The farmer waits for the precious produce of the soil, being patient about it, until it gets the early and late rains.
You too be patient; strengthen your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is near.
Do not complain, brethren, against one another, so that you yourselves may not be judged; behold, the Judge is standing right at the door."
Jm 5:7-9 (James)

But in these last days He has spoken to us by His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, and through whom He made the universe.
Heb 1:2 (Possibly Apollos? or Paul)

The revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place.
Rev 1:1 (John)

This generation shall not pass, till all these things be done.
Mk 13:30 (Jesus in Mark)

"Truly I tell you, you will not finish going through the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes."
Mt 10:23 (Jesus to disciples)

"I say to all of you: From now on you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven"
Mt 26:64 (Jesus to Sanhedrin)

This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.
Lk 21:31 (Luke)

Some verses certainly do sound like the end of the world language.
But Jesus did not return yet.
Or we'd be living in the new world.
Are we living in the new world or are things just as they were at the time of these writings?

 

[HealthyShape]

I agreed with you.
I said that Paul wrote to the thessalonians to tell them to continue with their life....

I have no idea what you want to say with that...

However, we must admit that Jesus did say that no one knows the time....

He said day and hour, not time. He clearly stated it will all happen in the generation He was talking to, that they will not even go through all the cities in Israel before He comes etc. Not knowing exact day does not mean not knowing at least some time frame.

What I'm saying, and that you glossed over,
is that at times Jesus was speaking about the immediate time frame that Israel was in,
and at other times He was speaking about the REAL end times when the world would end.

I saw you said that, but it is not in the text at all. It actually contradicts the text, so therefore I see no reason to talk about that explanation. It is not biblical.

You can believe the world ended in 70AD,,,I said I'm not willing to debate this.
It's a really odd belief...but Christianity has adopted some really odd beliefs -

It was the belief of Jesus and of the apostles. It is in the New Testament. We can either deal with it or ignore it.

Some of your verses can be easily explained...
and some cannot.

I would rather say some verses, if we isolate them from the other ones, can be somehow manipulated to say whatever we wish, but together with other verses, it is clear (and the mainstream scholarship accepts it) that the first church expected the end of everything and Jesus to come in their times.

 

[HealthyShape]

Some verses certainly do sound like the end of the world language.
But Jesus did not return yet.
Or we'd be living in the new world.
Are we living in the new world or are things just as they were at the time of these writings?

So, what is the solution? I see these two:
a) The New Testament was wrong
b) It all happened, we just do not know how, exactly

 

[GodsGrace]

So, what is the solution? I see these two:
a) The New Testament was wrong
b) It happened, we just do not know how.

Neither one.
At times Jesus spoke of the near future and at times of the end of the world.
Can't find my notes....
The following notes the two time frames for anyone that is reading along and is interested.

Understanding the End Time Parables of Jesus Christ in Matthew 24 and 25 - Great Tribulation, Second Coming, Millennium, and Great White Throne Judgment

Matthew 24 and 25 contain Jesus' words and parables about the major end times events. Let's interpret and understand these mysteries.

www.miltongoh.net

There are many such articles that can be found on the net.

 

[HealthyShape]

Neither one.
At times Jesus spoke of the near future and at times of the end of the world.

But this is not biblical. Jesus spoke about one time frame for both His coming and all the judgement of Israel and of nations. He did not separate anything with large 2,000 years span and neither did His apostles.

We cannot say that both the NT authors were right and that it did not happen as they said it would. It is not logically possible.

 

[GodsGrace]

But this is not biblical. Jesus spoke about one time frame for both His coming and all the judgement of Israel and of nations. He did not separate anything with large 2,000 years span and neither did His apostles.

We cannot say that both the NT authors were right and that it did not happen as they said it would. It is not logically possible.

Seems like there are many conflicts in the bible.
I hear some state that it's impossible to forfeit our salvation.
I hear some say that it is possible.

So this is not limited to what your interest in the bible is.
I WOULD like to understand why this is important to you.

And what is your understanding.....
Are the conditions present now that respond to the second coming of Jesus?

 

[HealthyShape]

Seems like there are many conflicts in the bible.
I hear some state that it's impossible to forfeit our salvation.
I hear some say that it is possible.

So this is not limited to what your interest in the bible is.
I WOULD like to understand why this is important to you.

And what is your understanding.....
Are the conditions present now that respond to the second coming of Jesus?

But this is not a biblical contradiction like "one place says this, another place says that". The whole NT claims Jesus will come back in their time. As my examples showed - Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Peter, Paul, James, Apollos... they agree with each other.

 

[HealthyShape]

And what is your understanding.....
Are the conditions present now that respond to the second coming of Jesus?

Hard to say, it was described in symbolic, metaphorical way. So, no hard data to look for.

 

[MonoBiblical]

But this is not a biblical contradiction like "one place says this, another place says that". The whole NT claims Jesus will come back in their time. As my examples showed - Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Peter, Paul, James, Apollos... they agree with each other.

And I don't think he lied or bent truth by having already 2nd came.

 

[Muna]

And you know, as far as Luke 21:22 goes, Jesus was to "proclaim" certain things, even as the woman at the well believed he would tell them all things when she said,

John 4:25 , I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things.

Jesus would later say in Mark

Mark 13:23 But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things.

In the present, he was anointed to preach good tidings, to proclaim liberty to the captives, to proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD which includes proclaiming the day of vengeance of our God

Isaiah 61:1-2 The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound; To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD,
and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;

In Luke 4 Jesus is handed the book of Isaiah and reads all the above up to a certain place before Jesus closes the book (and without retyping the whole thing)

Jesus stops here

Luke 4:19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.

Luke 4:20 And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down.
And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him.

Luke 4:21 And he began to say unto them,
This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.

So he had just fulfilled "that proclamation" (in their ears) as is told us in Isaiah 61:2 in their very hearing.

He was also"to proclaim the day of vengeance of our God", but Jesus had stopped short before getting to that closed the book and told us what was just fulfilled as far as the acceptable year.

Jesus appears to pick this up again in Luke 21 as he goes on to proclaim the days of vengeance here where all things written may be fulfilled are mentioned here, as Jesus says

Luke 21:22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

Read before it and then read further in between which covers many things concerning these days of vengeance until he finally gets to the place (10 verses later) where he says,

Luke 21:32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.

 

[Deleted member 26788]

Its like talking to a wall

ya I know

 

[GodsGrace]

Its like talking to a wall

You don't think @Behold is correct in his post no. 427?

Sorry, I just saw this.

 

[Muna]

You don't think @Behold is correct in his post no. 427?

Sorry, I just saw this.

I think you have to go back to the post before that response to get my comment, I didnt read beyond, " If you want to find out if Jesus is God........" because that was not what I was adressing and that is why I said, "its like talking to a wall"