Jesus was made Lord and Christ at His resurrection

[Robert Gwin]

Your world view does not allow a rational answer to the question. Our conversation ends with your denying the difference between faith and denomination. Make a blessed day.

Yes sir the distinction. I think the reason you chose not to answer is rather obvious Wrangler.

 

[keithr]

Yes sir the distinction. I think the reason you chose not to answer is rather obvious Wrangler.

Here's my second (or third) opinion. Most people today understand the word 'faith' to refer to a religious belief, such as Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Buddism, Hinduism, etc.. One dictionary definition is "a sytem of religious belief". A denomiation is defined as 'a religious group, usually including many churches, often larger than a sect'.

Ephesians 4:4-6 (WEB):

(4) There is one body, and one Spirit, even as you also were called in one hope of your calling;​

(5) one Lord, one faith, one baptism​

(6) one God and Father of all, who is over all, and through all, and in us all.​

This is saying that there is only one true Christian faith (belief). Paul goes on to say:

(11) He gave some to be apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, shepherds and teachers;​

(12) for the perfecting of the saints, to the work of serving, to the building up of the body of Christ;​

(13) until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a full grown man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ;​

(14) that we may no longer be children, tossed back and forth and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in craftiness, after the wiles of error;​

(15) but speaking truth in love, we may grow up in all things into him, who is the head, Christ;​

(16) from whom all the body, being fitted and knit together through that which every joint supplies, according to the working in measure of each individual part, makes the body increase to the building up of itself in love.​

So it is a work in progress for us to come to that one true faith, and it is God who is working in us to bring us to that unity of faith:

Philippians 2:13 (WEB):

(13) For it is God who works in you both to will and to work, for his good pleasure.​

Philippians1:6 (TLV):

(6) I am sure of this very thing—that He who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the Day of Messiah Yeshua.​

2 Corinthians 13:5 (WEB):

(5) Examine your own selves, whether you are in the faith. Test your own selves. Or don’t you know as to your own selves, that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you are disqualified.​

 

[Robert Gwin]

Here's my second (or third) opinion. Most people today understand the word 'faith' to refer to a religious belief, such as Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Buddism, Hinduism, etc.. One dictionary definition is "a sytem of religious belief". A denomiation is defined as 'a religious group, usually including many churches, often larger than a sect'.

Ephesians 4:4-6 (WEB):

(4) There is one body, and one Spirit, even as you also were called in one hope of your calling;​

(5) one Lord, one faith, one baptism​

(6) one God and Father of all, who is over all, and through all, and in us all.​

This is saying that there is only one true Christian faith (belief). Paul goes on to say:

(11) He gave some to be apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, shepherds and teachers;​

(12) for the perfecting of the saints, to the work of serving, to the building up of the body of Christ;​

(13) until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a full grown man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ;​

(14) that we may no longer be children, tossed back and forth and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in craftiness, after the wiles of error;​

(15) but speaking truth in love, we may grow up in all things into him, who is the head, Christ;​

(16) from whom all the body, being fitted and knit together through that which every joint supplies, according to the working in measure of each individual part, makes the body increase to the building up of itself in love.​

So it is a work in progress for us to come to that one true faith, and it is God who is working in us to bring us to that unity of faith:

Philippians 2:13 (WEB):

(13) For it is God who works in you both to will and to work, for his good pleasure.​

Philippians1:6 (TLV):

(6) I am sure of this very thing—that He who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the Day of Messiah Yeshua.​

2 Corinthians 13:5 (WEB):

(5) Examine your own selves, whether you are in the faith. Test your own selves. Or don’t you know as to your own selves, that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you are disqualified.​

Great explanation Keith, I fully agree, and perhaps Wrangler might be able to understand it from you sir, as you went into greater detail, I felt asking him what faith in Eph 4:5 meant should be sufficient, as you showed. At any rate thanks for expounding on it sir.

 

[Wrangler]

Great explanation Keith, I fully agree, and perhaps Wrangler might be able to understand it from you sir, as you went into greater detail, I felt asking him what faith in Eph 4:5 meant should be sufficient, as you showed. At any rate thanks for expounding on it sir.

I understand it the same way @keithr does; one (Christian) faith with many denominations.

 

[Robert Gwin]

I understand it the same way @keithr does; one (Christian) faith with many denominations.

I didn't gather he felt that way about it Wrangler, a denomination is defined as: a religious organization whose congregations are united in their adherence to its beliefs and practices

I think you understand it that way as well. The Way is made up of many congregations as before the apostles death many congregations were already formed, in fact much of the new testament is composed of letters written to those congregations Wangler. However the Way, is only one faith and they all speak in agreement and worship in spirit and truth 1 Cor 1:10; Jn 4:24. I showed you by Scripture where all these "Christian" denominations came from, and you can either believe it or not, but I think God's word is correct, at any rate they came from somewhere, and God has pronounced Judgment upon them prophetically and you have the responsibility to get out of them and go with His people:
(Revelation 18:4, 5) . . .I heard another voice out of heaven say: “Get out of her, my people, if you do not want to share with her in her sins, and if you do not want to receive part of her plagues. 5 For her sins have massed together clear up to heaven, and God has called her acts of injustice to mind.

 

[Wrangler]

I didn't gather he felt that way about it Wrangler, a denomination is defined as: a religious organization whose congregations are united in their adherence to its beliefs and practices

Friend, this is the last time I will say it; You are getting caught up in the weeds. We all belong to the Christian faith; subscribe to Romans 10:9.

Beyond that, denominational differences over other doctrinal matters are mute. Rom 14:1, 13; Jam 4:11-12.

There are many threads here that delve into things I tend to ignore whole sale, like pre mil tribulation and all kinds of Eschatology. It is a contradiction to assert Christians are of different faiths. It is absurd on it's face and does not reflect the grace of God.

Make a Blessed Day.

 

[Robert Gwin]

Friend, this is the last time I will say it; You are getting caught up in the weeds. We all belong to the Christian faith; subscribe to Romans 10:9.

Beyond that, denominational differences over other doctrinal matters are mute. Rom 14:1, 13; Jam 4:11-12.

There are many threads here that delve into things I tend to ignore whole sale, like pre mil tribulation and all kinds of Eschatology. It is a contradiction to assert Christians are of different faiths. It is absurd on it's face and does not reflect the grace of God.

Make a Blessed Day.

I hope you are right, but I would like to see it backed up with Scripture Wrangler. Time will tell of course. How nice it would be for sure.

 

[Wrangler]

I would like to see it backed up with Scripture Wrangler.

It is backed up by Scripture. Re-read my posts of denomination in Scripture.

 

[keithr]

I hope you are right, but I would like to see it backed up with Scripture Wrangler. Time will tell of course. How nice it would be for sure.

Perhaps this article, that I've posted before, will help reassure us?

Christ’s Inheritance​

[Scripture quotations are from the REB (Revised English Bible) unless otherwise stated.]

As Christians we are truly greatly blessed by God! We are not blessed because we are more deserving than others nor because of anything we have done. God’s blessings are free gifts from our loving creator. It is God that chooses who is to become a member of the body of Christ (“chosen by the grace of God. But if it is by grace, then it does not rest on deeds, or grace would cease to be grace” – Romans 11:5-6). We did not choose to become a Christian of our own volition; it was God that called us. We are all born with a sinful nature and the Bible says that no sinner seeks God - “There is no one righteous; no, not one; no one who understands, no one who seeks God” (Romans 3:10-11) - so we only become Christians because God reaches out to us. Jesus said “No one can come to me unless he is drawn by the Father who sent me” (John 6:44), and “All that the Father gives me will come to me, and anyone who comes to me I will never turn away” (John 6:37). “For it is by grace you are saved through faith; it is not your own doing. It is God’s gift, not a reward for work done. There is nothing for anyone to boast of; we are God’s handiwork” (Ephesians 2:8-9).

God calls us to salvation through our hearing or reading the gospel: “God chose you to find salvation in the Spirit who consecrates you and in the truth you believe. It was for this that he called you through the gospel we brought, so that you might come to possess the splendour of our Lord Jesus Christ” (2 Thessalonians 2:13-14). We know we are called by our response to the gospel – “My dear friends, beloved by God, we are certain that he has chosen you, because when we brought you the gospel we did not bring it in mere words but in the power of the Holy Spirit and with strong conviction. You know what we were like for your sake when we were with you. You, in turn, followed the example set by us and the Lord; the welcome you gave the message meant grave suffering for you, yet you rejoiced in the Holy Spirit; and so you have become a model for all believers in Macedonia and Achaia” (1 Thessalonians 1:4-7). Those that hear the gospel (which means ‘good news’) and believe it have been chosen: “And in Christ you also – once you had heard the message of the truth, the good news of your salvation, and had believed it – in him you were stamped with the seal of the promised Holy Spirit” (Ephesians 1:13). We were sealed with the Holy Spirit when we believed the gospel – it’s a completed transaction, our salvation is assured!

Having accepted God’s calling, we have been begotten as new creatures in Christ. God’s purpose for us will be realised after we have been born again as new creatures and will be with Jesus in heaven: “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead” (1 Peter 1:3, AV). “Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new” (2 Corinthians 5:17, AV). “Dear friends, we are now God’s children; what we shall be has not yet been disclosed, but we know that when Christ appears we shall be like him, because we shall see him as he is” (1 John 3:2).

Even before God created man he chose us to become members of his family: “Before the foundation of the world he chose us in Christ to be his people, to be without blemish in his sight, to be full of love; and he predestined us to be adopted as his children through Jesus Christ. This was his will and pleasure in order that the glory of his gracious gift, so graciously conferred on us in his Beloved, might redound to his praise” (Ephesians 1:4-6). This predestination is God’s guarantee – Jesus said, “My own sheep listen to my voice; I know them and they follow me. I give them eternal life and they will never perish; no one will snatch them from my care” (John 10:27-28) and the apostle Paul said, “For I am convinced that there is nothing in death or life, in the realms of spirits or superhuman powers, in the world as it is or the world as it shall be, in the forces of the universe, in heights or depths – nothing in all creation that can separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord” (Romans 8:38-39).

In Israel boys were no better off than servants until they came of age, only then they were adopted as sons. Only at that point did they have the freedom, rights and privileges of a son and could inherit their father’s property. This is what the Bible is referring to when it says that we become adopted as sons of God. Having become adopted sons of God, our obedience is not the forced obedience of servants, but the loving obedience of sons, and we have an inheritance in Christ: “so long as the heir is a minor, he is no better off than a slave, even though the whole estate is his; he is subject to guardians and trustees until the date set by his father. So it was with us: during our minority we were slaves, subject to the elemental spirits of the universe, but when the appointed time came, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under the law, to buy freedom for those who were under the law, in order that we might attain the status of sons. To prove that you are sons, God has sent into our hearts the Spirit of his Son, crying ‘Abba, Father!’ You are therefore no longer a slave but a son, and if a son, an heir by God’s own act” (Galatians 4:1-7), “fellow-heirs with Christ” (Romans 8:17).

Although Paul talks of us as having been adopted (for it is a done deal), nevertheless we are not actually adopted until our resurrection as new spirit creatures: “we also, to whom the Spirit is given as the firstfruits of the harvest to come, are groaning inwardly while we look forward eagerly to our adoption, our liberation from mortality. It was with this hope that we were saved.” (Romans 8:23-24). When we are born again (in the resurrection) we will receive the spiritual nature of a son of God, then we are adopted as sons and we will receive the position, status and rights of a son of God. Once again, it is all God’s work in us: “For those whom God knew before ever they were, he also ordained to share the likeness of his Son, so that he might be the eldest among a large family of brothers; and those whom he foreordained, he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified” (Romans 8:29-30).

As Christians we can have a share in Christ’s inheritance. However, although our eternal life is assured, note that we can lose our share in that inheritance. Paul said (comparing to training for an athletic race), “I do not spare my body, but bring it under strict control, for fear that after preaching to others I should find myself disqualified” - or not fit enough to win the prize (1 Corinthians 9:27).

We know that our inheritance will include a perfect immortal spirit body, a perfect righteous, loving character and a share in Jesus’ kingdom rule, but it will be more than we can imagine. “No eye hath seen, no ear has heard, no mind has conceived what God has prepared for those that love him” (1 Corinthians 2:9, NIV).

Jesus has an additional inheritance - the Church. We are part of God’s gift to his son Jesus (John 17:24). That should make us try hard to be as perfect, righteous and loving as we can be.

 

[Robert Gwin]

It is backed up by Scripture. Re-read my posts of denomination in Scripture.

I see no need to argue terms sir, we have exhausted it. Ignorance of words is one of the reasons people do not understand the Bible, but to choose to be ignorant is another thing entirely.

 

[Robert Gwin]

Perhaps this article, that I've posted before, will help reassure us?

Christ’s Inheritance​

[Scripture quotations are from the REB (Revised English Bible) unless otherwise stated.]

As Christians we are truly greatly blessed by God! We are not blessed because we are more deserving than others nor because of anything we have done. God’s blessings are free gifts from our loving creator. It is God that chooses who is to become a member of the body of Christ (“chosen by the grace of God. But if it is by grace, then it does not rest on deeds, or grace would cease to be grace” – Romans 11:5-6). We did not choose to become a Christian of our own volition; it was God that called us. We are all born with a sinful nature and the Bible says that no sinner seeks God - “There is no one righteous; no, not one; no one who understands, no one who seeks God” (Romans 3:10-11) - so we only become Christians because God reaches out to us. Jesus said “No one can come to me unless he is drawn by the Father who sent me” (John 6:44), and “All that the Father gives me will come to me, and anyone who comes to me I will never turn away” (John 6:37). “For it is by grace you are saved through faith; it is not your own doing. It is God’s gift, not a reward for work done. There is nothing for anyone to boast of; we are God’s handiwork” (Ephesians 2:8-9).

God calls us to salvation through our hearing or reading the gospel: “God chose you to find salvation in the Spirit who consecrates you and in the truth you believe. It was for this that he called you through the gospel we brought, so that you might come to possess the splendour of our Lord Jesus Christ” (2 Thessalonians 2:13-14). We know we are called by our response to the gospel – “My dear friends, beloved by God, we are certain that he has chosen you, because when we brought you the gospel we did not bring it in mere words but in the power of the Holy Spirit and with strong conviction. You know what we were like for your sake when we were with you. You, in turn, followed the example set by us and the Lord; the welcome you gave the message meant grave suffering for you, yet you rejoiced in the Holy Spirit; and so you have become a model for all believers in Macedonia and Achaia” (1 Thessalonians 1:4-7). Those that hear the gospel (which means ‘good news’) and believe it have been chosen: “And in Christ you also – once you had heard the message of the truth, the good news of your salvation, and had believed it – in him you were stamped with the seal of the promised Holy Spirit” (Ephesians 1:13). We were sealed with the Holy Spirit when we believed the gospel – it’s a completed transaction, our salvation is assured!

Having accepted God’s calling, we have been begotten as new creatures in Christ. God’s purpose for us will be realised after we have been born again as new creatures and will be with Jesus in heaven: “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead” (1 Peter 1:3, AV). “Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new” (2 Corinthians 5:17, AV). “Dear friends, we are now God’s children; what we shall be has not yet been disclosed, but we know that when Christ appears we shall be like him, because we shall see him as he is” (1 John 3:2).

Even before God created man he chose us to become members of his family: “Before the foundation of the world he chose us in Christ to be his people, to be without blemish in his sight, to be full of love; and he predestined us to be adopted as his children through Jesus Christ. This was his will and pleasure in order that the glory of his gracious gift, so graciously conferred on us in his Beloved, might redound to his praise” (Ephesians 1:4-6). This predestination is God’s guarantee – Jesus said, “My own sheep listen to my voice; I know them and they follow me. I give them eternal life and they will never perish; no one will snatch them from my care” (John 10:27-28) and the apostle Paul said, “For I am convinced that there is nothing in death or life, in the realms of spirits or superhuman powers, in the world as it is or the world as it shall be, in the forces of the universe, in heights or depths – nothing in all creation that can separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord” (Romans 8:38-39).

In Israel boys were no better off than servants until they came of age, only then they were adopted as sons. Only at that point did they have the freedom, rights and privileges of a son and could inherit their father’s property. This is what the Bible is referring to when it says that we become adopted as sons of God. Having become adopted sons of God, our obedience is not the forced obedience of servants, but the loving obedience of sons, and we have an inheritance in Christ: “so long as the heir is a minor, he is no better off than a slave, even though the whole estate is his; he is subject to guardians and trustees until the date set by his father. So it was with us: during our minority we were slaves, subject to the elemental spirits of the universe, but when the appointed time came, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under the law, to buy freedom for those who were under the law, in order that we might attain the status of sons. To prove that you are sons, God has sent into our hearts the Spirit of his Son, crying ‘Abba, Father!’ You are therefore no longer a slave but a son, and if a son, an heir by God’s own act” (Galatians 4:1-7), “fellow-heirs with Christ” (Romans 8:17).

Although Paul talks of us as having been adopted (for it is a done deal), nevertheless we are not actually adopted until our resurrection as new spirit creatures: “we also, to whom the Spirit is given as the firstfruits of the harvest to come, are groaning inwardly while we look forward eagerly to our adoption, our liberation from mortality. It was with this hope that we were saved.” (Romans 8:23-24). When we are born again (in the resurrection) we will receive the spiritual nature of a son of God, then we are adopted as sons and we will receive the position, status and rights of a son of God. Once again, it is all God’s work in us: “For those whom God knew before ever they were, he also ordained to share the likeness of his Son, so that he might be the eldest among a large family of brothers; and those whom he foreordained, he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified” (Romans 8:29-30).

As Christians we can have a share in Christ’s inheritance. However, although our eternal life is assured, note that we can lose our share in that inheritance. Paul said (comparing to training for an athletic race), “I do not spare my body, but bring it under strict control, for fear that after preaching to others I should find myself disqualified” - or not fit enough to win the prize (1 Corinthians 9:27).

We know that our inheritance will include a perfect immortal spirit body, a perfect righteous, loving character and a share in Jesus’ kingdom rule, but it will be more than we can imagine. “No eye hath seen, no ear has heard, no mind has conceived what God has prepared for those that love him” (1 Corinthians 2:9, NIV).

Jesus has an additional inheritance - the Church. We are part of God’s gift to his son Jesus (John 17:24). That should make us try hard to be as perfect, righteous and loving as we can be.

I don't generally read lengthy posts Keith, but I do usually read them until I disagree with something. I disagree that we are saved by faith alone. I disagree that all Christians are born again, in fact very few are.

 

[Cassandra]

I see no need to argue terms sir, we have exhausted it. Ignorance of words is one of the reasons people do not understand the Bible, but to choose to be ignorant is another thing entirely.

I'm sure he could say the same thing about you. You always come across as arrogant--wow!

 

[Wrangler]

I see no need to argue terms sir, we have exhausted it. Ignorance of words is one of the reasons people do not understand the Bible, but to choose to be ignorant is another thing entirely.

Agreed.

In conclusion, denomination is repeatedly supported in Scripture. Some allocate the support to other terms.

 

[Karl Peters]

Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

This looks to me to be speaking of Jesus after His resurrection, which is when Peter is speaking to them that crucified Him.

I say the significance of this, is that by His resurrection He is now made both Lord and Christ for the whole world, and not just the Jews and born children of Israel after the flesh.

We know He was already both Lord and Christ in the flesh, because Scripture says Jesus Christ came in the flesh, and not just a man called Jesus.

Saying, Where is he that is born King of the Jews? for we have seen his star in the east, and are come to worship him.

He was born king of the Jews in being made flesh, but He is now made Lord and Kind for all the earth, by His resurrection.

I believe this is another reason for the importance of believing in His resurrection, otherwise, He would have been Lord and Christ for the Jews only, and not for the rest of us.

Jesus is made by God both Lord and Christ for our good, and not for our dominion only, because He is also the propitiation for the sins of the whole world, and not for the Jews only.

Without believing in His resurrection, we cannot be believing Him as Lord and Christ and Savior.

Otherwise, He would remain a past Jew, that claimed to be a born king of Israel from the house of David. He would be just another Jew claiming to be messiah.

I can see that this thread has been going on, but the conclusion is not correct.

He was put in charge even before He things started being created by Him. It is only that He has to have things created through Him to be considered Lord and King of all. I will point you to Ps 2.

Ps 2:6 “But as for Me, I have installed My King Upon Zion, My holy mountain.”

Ps 2:7 I will surely tell of the decree of the LORD: He said to Me, ‘You are My Son, Today I have begotten You.

We can see in Ps 2:6 that Jesus Christ had been, as in already, installed as King.

And in the next verse we read that the decreed will be told, so again it had already happen but perhaps not be told, and in the second part of the we get find out when it happened, and that was when the Father told the Son, "Today I have begotten You".

So when was the Son begotten???

In the beginning of course!! We know that because all things were created through Him, and we know it by other ways too. Jn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God.

So the decree was made in the beginning, even the beginning of the first day!!

Gen 1:1-5 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. The earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters. Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light. God saw that the light was good; and God separated the light from the darkness. God called the light day, and the darkness He called night. And there was evening and there was morning, one day.

There is the day that the Father begot the Son, so that is the day He spoke He said, "'You are My son, Today i have begotten You/"

In fact Jesus is the light, right? So like a gun that starts a race Jesus is the light that started creation. So indeed, Jesus Christ is the beginning!! And that is the decree which install Jesus as King on the throne!!

Is 4 1:4Who has performed and accomplished it, Calling forth the generations from the beginning?
‘I, the LORD, am the first, and with the last. I am He.'”

And while a rebellion broke forth, so He at some point had beings not listening to Him as their Lord, He will was above all things and all things belong to Him, per the decree of the Father which was made in the beginning!

Ps 8:6 You make him to rule over the works of Your hands; You have put all things under his feet,

All things were made through Him, according to the decree made in the beginning. So all things are put under his feet, even if not all act like it because of the rebellion.

Ps 119:91 They stand this day according to Your ordinances, For all things are Your servants.

This is actually quite and interesting statement if we understand the full meaning of it. All things serve Him whether they know it or not!!!!

A good example of this is Satan, who thought exalts himself in his rebellion and lies and lies, even Satan serves the Lord or lord and King of kings, even in his rebellion.

Gen 50:20 “As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good in order to bring about this present result, to preserve many people alive.

The irony if that while Satan works the works he does meaning evil, he in his rebellion accomplishes the good purpose of our Lord Jesus Christ!! In fact Satan can not even do anything unless first given permission from Jesus Christ!!

Job 1:12 Then the LORD said to Satan, “Behold, all that he has is in your power, only do not put forth your hand on him.” So Satan departed from the presence of the LORD.

Look closely: Poor old Satan, he has to get permission and the authorization for the power in order to do what he does!! And yet as the creator, the Lord knows what he is going to do because the Lord knows what he created! This should have been very humbling, but Satan.s pride has caused him to over look this!

Of course I am really not talking about Satan but about us!! He knows what we are going to do also! He can turn what we mean for evil to also accomplish His purpose in us. So, it is not about what we do but rather whether we want to serve Him or not!! It is all about the intentions of the heart of men!! Are we seeking Him and want He wants, even though we have our problems, or are we rejecting Him and out to keep our evil ways? That is why it is all about believing that He is who He is - believing in Him!

That belief in Him needs to be a belief in who He is, otherwise, it is not a belief in Him!! Therefore believing in Him really means believing that He is and always was over all things since the beginning, so as to be the creator and thus authority over all things just like the decree stated!!

That is the type of faith that the Centurion had, the belief that Jesus just had to tell someone and it would be done, and that before the cross!!

 

[Robert Gwin]

I'm sure he could say the same thing about you. You always come across as arrogant--wow!

Thanks Cassy, I certainly hope not maam, I do my utmost to be kind and informative. I explained in detail the whys and wherefores of the topic, and he chose to continue way past exhaustion to be honest about it. There may also be personal bias as well, as many persecute us based on our faith, we see it all the time. Many state differently about me as well, so I have to admit what Ricky Nelson once sang, you can't please everyone, although I will always try. Thanks for you input though, and if you see an actual post that you feel is out of line, please let me know at the time, because you may very well be correct, and I might have to make an adjustment. This case however I see no problem with.

 

[robert derrick]

I can see that this thread has been going on, but the conclusion is not correct.

He was put in charge even before He things started being created by Him. It is only that He has to have things created through Him to be considered Lord and King of all. I will point you to Ps 2.

Ps 2:6 “But as for Me, I have installed My King Upon Zion, My holy mountain.”

Ps 2:7 I will surely tell of the decree of the LORD: He said to Me, ‘You are My Son, Today I have begotten You.

We can see in Ps 2:6 that Jesus Christ had been, as in already, installed as King.

And in the next verse we read that the decreed will be told, so again it had already happen but perhaps not be told, and in the second part of the we get find out when it happened, and that was when the Father told the Son, "Today I have begotten You".

So when was the Son begotten???

In the beginning of course!! We know that because all things were created through Him, and we know it by other ways too. Jn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God.

So the decree was made in the beginning, even the beginning of the first day!!

You make a good point about when the decree was made, even as the Lamb of God slain from the foundation of the world; however, it is prophecy that does not come to pass, until Jesus Christ is come in the flesh on earth.

He was not yet made Lord and Saviour for all men, until He died and rose again. He is not yet made King in Zion, until He appears again to rule over all men on earth.

Only in the sense that God and Christ cannot lie, and will keep their promises, including those prophecied of Him, can any one say it was already done in the beginning.

And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.

Right now, it is sure prophecy, but only on the the new earth will it be fulfilled and done.

For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.

We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:

Gen 1:1-5 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. The earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters. Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light. God saw that the light was good; and God separated the light from the darkness. God called the light day, and the darkness He called night. And there was evening and there was morning, one day.

There is the day that the Father begot the Son, so that is the day He spoke He said, "'You are My son, Today i have begotten You/"

In fact Jesus is the light, right? So like a gun that starts a race Jesus is the light that started creation. So indeed, Jesus Christ is the beginning!! And that is the decree which install Jesus as King on the throne!!

He is the beginning of creation and prophecy in creation, that He Himself fulfills on the earth.

He did not fulfill the decree of being the only begotten Son of God, until He the Word was made flesh. Nor was He made the Lamb of God and propitiation for the sins of all the world, until He died on the cross.

He is the beginning of prophecy, and the ending of prophecy fulfilled.

For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

And while a rebellion broke forth, so He at some point had beings not listening to Him as their Lord, He will was above all things and all things belong to Him, per the decree of the Father which was made in the beginning!

True. But He was not made above all things as a man, until He became the resurrected man Christ Jesus.

Ps 8:6 You make him to rule over the works of Your hands; You have put all things under his feet,

All things were made through Him, according to the decree made in the beginning. So all things are put under his feet, even if not all act like it because of the rebellion.

Ps 119:91 They stand this day according to Your ordinances, For all things are Your servants.

This is actually quite and interesting statement if we understand the full meaning of it. All things serve Him whether they know it or not!!!!

A good example of this is Satan, who thought exalts himself in his rebellion and lies and lies, even Satan serves the Lord or lord and King of kings, even in his rebellion.

True. Satan is allowed for now to be loose upon the earth, in order to try God's people with temptation, false doctrine, and persecution.

And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

Gen 50:20 “As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good in order to bring about this present result, to preserve many people alive.

The irony if that while Satan works the works he does meaning evil, he in his rebellion accomplishes the good purpose of our Lord Jesus Christ!! In fact Satan can not even do anything unless first given permission from Jesus Christ!!

True again:

There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

Job 1:12 Then the LORD said to Satan, “Behold, all that he has is in your power, only do not put forth your hand on him.” So Satan departed from the presence of the LORD.

Look closely: Poor old Satan, he has to get permission and the authorization for the power in order to do what he does!! And yet as the creator, the Lord knows what he is going to do because the Lord knows what he created! This should have been very humbling, but Satan.s pride has caused him to over look this!

Of course I am really not talking about Satan but about us!! He knows what we are going to do also! He can turn what we mean for evil to also accomplish His purpose in us.

Meaning to do evil is not the divine nature we partake of.

So, it is not about what we do but rather whether we want to serve Him or not!!

Disagree. It is all about what we do, and not about what we 'intend' only.

We are judged according to our works, not our intentions.

Sins of ignorance are not sinning without knowing it, but are mistakes unintended and without fault on our part.

If I am rock climbing, and a rock breaks loose by my climb, and falls upon another to wound or kill them, then I am not guilty of murder.

That belief in Him needs to be a belief in who He is, otherwise, it is not a belief in Him!!

True. Believing in the one true God is not better than devils.

Who He is, is the delievere from sinning, as well as advocate for those confessing sinning with godly sorrow.