Jesus, Where is Your Kingdom?

[Rocky Wiley]

What kingdom of God is one waiting for today?

Mar 4:11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:
The disciples of Jesus will know the mystery of the kingdom of God, all others will not understand.

Mar 1:15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.
At the time Jesus spoke to them the kingdom of God was very close.

Joh 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
If we are to see the kingdom of God we need to be born again. All mankind are born dead spiritually and must be born again.

Joh 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
We were born of the flesh when we came into this world, we need to be born on the Spirit.
Joh 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
No matter how you might believe, Jesus said we must be born again.
Joh 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
We can not see the wind or where it comes from, but we hear the sound. It is the same way when one is born of the Spirit, we will speak in an unknown language, known today as tongues, when we are born again.

1Co 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
When Christ rose from the dead he was the first to rise from then that slept. Those that slept were the faithful Jews from Adam to that day
1Co 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
From Adam came death, and from Jesus comes life.
1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
Same as above.
1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
Each man comes in the order of their passing from this earth, first Jesus, his disciples (that died before 70 AD) and then those from Adam on will rise at the end of the age. That would be in 70 AD when Jesus returned in judgment.
1Co 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
Then all of the prophecies would have been fulfilled.
1Co 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
He would reign until that time.
1Co 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
The last enemy, which is death, was destroyed at the time we were born again and for those faithful of the past at their resurrection promised to Adam and all the faithful.
1Co 15:27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
1Co 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
After 70 AD the only people going to heaven are those that have been born again while walking here on earth. If we are his children, we will pass from this physical body to our heavenly body. All others are just put in a grave.

Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.
Timothy said the Old Covenant was ready to vanish at his writing.


The Word of God is very clear that Jesus came unto his own as their saviour. As their saviour he was to raise those that had died in faith. That would complete the old covenant promises. While here on earth he also spoke of the new covenant.

Joh 11:21 Then said Martha unto Jesus, Lord, if thou hadst been here, my brother had not died.
Joh 11:22 But I know, that even now, whatsoever thou wilt ask of God, God will give it thee.
Joh 11:23 Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again.
Jesus was speaking of the resurrection.
Joh 11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.
Martha understood.
Joh 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
We are born dead, but when we believe in Jesus we live.
Joh 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
Once we are alive if we continue to believe in him we shall never die.
Joh 11:27 She saith unto him, Yea, Lord: I believe that thou art the Christ, the Son of God, which should come into the world.
Martha believed, so do I. How about you?

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, Rocky Wiley.
Just can't let this go on. It's ridiculous! Something has to be said to correct this LAME understanding of the Resurrection ... as well as the REST of the UNTRUTHS you are propagating!

Quote
What kingdom of God is one waiting for today?
Mar 4:11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:
The disciples of Jesus will know the mystery of the kingdom of God, all others will not understand.
...

First of all, you need to understand a few things: 1) The phrase "mystery of" means "secret about"; simply make the substitution. 2) The word "without" means "outside"; again, make the substitution. 3) The word "parables" is a transliteration of the Greek word "parabolais" that means "symbolic narratives," literally meaning "thrown alongside." 4) It is WRONG to assume that the "disciples of Jesus" today are ANYTHING like the actual disciples of Yeshua` in the early first century A.D. These words were said directly to THEM, NOT to just anyone who claims to be a "disciple of Jesus!" 5) These disciples or students of Yeshua`s teachings actually knew more about God's Kingdom than most "Christians" do today. Today, many have a nebulous fiction for a definition of God's Kingdom; back then, those children of Isra'el had a much more PRECISE, CONCRETE understanding of God's Kingdom, having had His Kingdom before under the leadership of Mosheh (Moses), Yehoshuwa` (Joshua), all the judges, and David, and who had WRITTEN RECORDS of that Kingdom!

Rocky Wiley, on 24 Mar 2014 - 06:11 AM, said:
...

Mar 1:15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.
At the time Jesus spoke to them the kingdom of God was very close.

...

Yes, it was "within their grasp," because God's Kingdom comes with the presence of God's Representative King, His MESSIAH! Take away the physical presence of the King, however, and you also take away the Kingdom. The two go hand-in-hand. Thus, when Yeshua` left this earth, He took His offer of the Kingdom with Him! Not until He PHYSICALLY returns will the offer of the Kingdom PHYSICALLY return as well!

Rocky Wiley, on 24 Mar 2014 - 06:11 AM, said:
...
Joh 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
If we are to see the kingdom of God we need to be born again. All mankind are born dead spiritually and must be born again.

Joh 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
We were born of the flesh when we came into this world, we need to be born on the Spirit.
Joh 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
No matter how you might believe, Jesus said we must be born again.
Joh 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
We cannot see the wind or where it comes from, but we hear the sound. It is the same way when one is born of the Spirit, we will speak in an unknown language, known today as tongues, when we are born again.
...

The new birth is NOT a replacement for the physical birth; it's in ADDITION TO the physical birth. I agree that one must ALSO be born again to see the PHYSICAL Kingdom of God that is coming in the future, but it is NOT HERE NOW! It's an error to think that being born again allows one to see the Kingdom of God TODAY! It simply grants them the right to see it WHEN HE AND IT COME! And, it doesn't come UNTIL the Son of Man returns!
Oh, and there's no such thing as an "unknown language." The "unknown tongue" of the book of Acts was simply a "FOREIGN language," a language that was naturally "unknown" to the individual speaking. We have Scriptural evidence that Yeshua` spoke to Rav Sha'uwl (Paul) from the sky in HEBREW! (Acts 26:14.) There's no "magical, angelic tongue!" The problem in 1 Corinthians 13:1 is that the prophets were often called "aggeloi," transliterated as "angels," because "aggelos" means a "messenger!"

To be continued...

 

[Rocky Wiley]

The new birth is NOT a replacement for the physical birth; it's in ADDITION TO the physical birth. I agree that one must ALSO be born again to see the PHYSICAL Kingdom of God that is coming in the future, but it is NOT HERE NOW! It's an error to think that being born again allows one to see the Kingdom of God TODAY! It simply grants them the right to see it WHEN HE AND IT COME! And, it doesn't come UNTIL the Son of Man returns!
Oh, and there's no such thing as an "unknown language." The "unknown tongue" of the book of Acts was simply a "FOREIGN language," a language that was naturally "unknown" to the individual speaking. We have Scriptural evidence that Yeshua` spoke to Rav Sha'uwl (Paul) from the sky in HEBREW! (Acts 26:14.) There's no "magical, angelic tongue!" The problem in 1 Corinthians 13:1 is that the prophets were often called "aggeloi," transliterated as "angels," because "aggelos" means a "messenger!"

When Jesus said ‘you must be born again’ it was not a suggestion. (must)
äåé͂
dei
die, deh-on'
Third person singular active present of G1210; also äåḯí deon which is neuter active participle of the same; both used impersonally; it is (was, etc.) necessary (as binding): - behoved, be meet, must (needs), (be) need (-ful), ought, should.

The reasons are several fold:

1: The kingdom of God is not an earthly one.
Joh 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world:
If we are to live in his kingdom, it will be spiritual.

2: Just as in the old covenant, there is a temple where God and man would meet.
2Co 6:16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
1Co 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
Our body is the temple of God.

3: The born again will speak in an unknown tongue when they are born of the Spirit (God), sometime in another earthly language, but many times in a heavenly language.
Joh 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
Act 10:45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Act 10:46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God.
The Holy Ghost and tongues are real, for I have experienced them both. It is not just for me or you but for all who will believe.
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
1Ti 4:14 Neglect not the gift that is in thee, which was given thee by prophecy, with the laying on of the hands of the presbytery.
The Holy Ghost is the gift of eternal life.

4, Jesus has extablished his kingdom and there will never be another.
Eph 3:19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.
Eph 3:20 Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us,
Eph 3:21 Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.

 

[Retrobyter]

Shabbat shalom, Rocky Wiley.

...

1Co 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
When Christ rose from the dead he was the first to rise from then that slept. Those that slept were the faithful Jews from Adam to that day
1Co 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
From Adam came death, and from Jesus comes life.
1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
Same as above.
1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
Each man comes in the order of their passing from this earth, first Jesus, his disciples (that died before 70 AD) and then those from Adam on will rise at the end of the age. That would be in 70 AD when Jesus returned in judgment.
1Co 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
Then all of the prophecies would have been fulfilled.
1Co 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
He would reign until that time.
1Co 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
The last enemy, which is death, was destroyed at the time we were born again and for those faithful of the past at their resurrection promised to Adam and all the faithful.
1Co 15:27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
1Co 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
After 70 AD the only people going to heaven are those that have been born again while walking here on earth. If we are his children, we will pass from this physical body to our heavenly body. All others are just put in a grave.

...

First of all and technically speaking, the individuals from Adam to Y'hudah (Judah) were NOT "Jews." The word "Jew" comes from the Hebrew word "Y'huwdiy" (through several other languages), which means "of-Y'hudah" or "belonging-to-Y'hudah." Originally, it meant anyone (or anything) that belonged to the man Y'hudah. Later, it also referred to anyone (or anything) that belonged to the tribe of Y'hudah or the sub-family of Y'hudah. Later, this was extended to the Southern Kingdom after RchaV`aam (Rehoboam) messed up and divided the Kingdom of Smoh (Solomon). Y'hudah's tribe, being the largest tribe in the southern portion of the Land, gave that Southern Kingdom its name: Y'huwdiy," which later became "Judea."

Second, Yeshua` (Jesus) did NOT "return in judgment" in 70 A.D! While the events of 70 A.D. were indeed a judgment upon Isra'el, Yeshua` did NOT return at that time! His words were...

Matthew 23:37-39
37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.
KJV

I guarantee you that these weren't words used in 70 A.D! The words "Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord" were from the prophecy of Psalm 118:

Psalm 118:22-26
22 The stone which the builders refused is become the head stone of the corner.
23 This is the LORD'S doing; it is marvellous in our eyes.
24 This is the day which the LORD hath made; we will rejoice and be glad in it.
25 Save now, I beseech thee, O LORD: O LORD, I beseech thee, send now prosperity.
26 Blessed be he that cometh in the name of the LORD: we have blessed you out of the house of the LORD.
KJV

The Hebrew of this verse 26 (transliterated) is...

T'hiyl 118:26
26 Baaruwkh habaa’ bsheem YHWH: Beerakhnuwkhem mibeeyt YHWH:
JPS Hebrew-English TANAKH

It literally means, "Welcome to the one coming in the authority of YHWH: We have welcomed you from the house of YHWH (the Temple)," referring to the welcome of the Messiah.

This was NOT done (as some surmise) on the first Palm Sunday. Only His few disciples and the children so welcomed Him, but the adults - the ones who HAD THE AUTHORITY TO DO SO AND COULD HAVE WELCOMED HIM AS THEIR KING - DID NOT! Instead, they ended up crucifying Him less than a week later!

Also, Yeshua`s words here in Matthew 23:39 were said AFTER the first Palm Sunday, not before!

Matthew 21:1-11
1 And when they drew nigh unto Jerusalem, and were come to Bethphage, unto the mount of Olives, then sent Jesus two disciples,
2 Saying unto them, Go into the village over against you, and straightway ye shall find an ass tied, and a colt with her: loose them, and bring them unto me.
3 And if any man say ought unto you, ye shall say, The Lord hath need of them; and straightway he will send them.
4 All this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying,
5 Tell ye the daughter of Sion (Zion), Behold, thy King cometh unto thee, meek, and sitting upon an ass, and a colt the foal of an ass.
6 And the disciples went, and did as Jesus commanded them,
7 And brought the ass, and the colt, and put on them their clothes, and they set him thereon.
8 And a very great multitude spread their garments in the way; others cut down branches from the trees, and strawed them in the way.
9 And the multitudes that went before, and that followed, cried, saying, Hosanna to the Son of David: Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord; Hosanna in the highest.
10 And when he was come into Jerusalem, all the city was moved, saying, Who is this?
11 And the multitude said, This is Jesus the prophet of Nazareth of Galilee.
KJV

Thus, this is NOT the fulfillment of what Yeshua` was talking about! Thus, 70 A.D. was NOT the "end of the age!"

"The last enemy, which is death," was NOT "destroyed at the time we were born again and for those faithful of the past at their resurrection promised to Adam and all the faithful"! Death is still prevalent in this earth! All we were given was the PROMISE of life through the DOWNPAYMENT (the "EARNEST") of the Ruach haQodesh (the Holy Spirit)!

2 Corinthians 1:21-22
21 Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God;
22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.
KJV

2 Corinthians 5:1-5
1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.
KJV

Ephesians 1:3-14
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
KJV

Therefore, we do NOT AS YET HAVE the fulfillment of that promise! We do NOT as yet have the "eternal life" in these bodies! We have the PROMISE of eternal life in NEW bodies! That's a HUGE difference!

You said, "After 70 AD the only people going to heaven are those that have been born again while walking here on earth. If we are his children, we will pass from this physical body to our heavenly body. All others are just put in a grave."

First, we are NOT to be anticipating "going to heaven." That is a MAJOR fallacy of today's "Christian" thinking! We are to be anticipating our PHYSICAL RESURRECTION IN OUR NEW BODIES HERE ON THIS EARTH WHEN OUR LORD YESHUA` RETURNS!

Second, IF we go to "heaven" at all, it will be the "heaven" or the "atmosphere" of the Paradise, the New Jerusalem, TEMPORARILY! When we return with Yeshua` to receive our new bodies from the remains of what are in the graves, THEN, we are put within our New Bodies, and we will once again be back on earth to live forever!

...

Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.
Timothy said the Old Covenant was ready to vanish at his writing.

...

Hebrews 8:13 does NOT imply that the Old Covenant is abandoned! To the contrary, the essential elements of the Old Covenant are WITHIN the New! Look again at the REAL New Covenant:

Jeremiah 31:31-40
31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD; for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
35 Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:
36 IF those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.
37 Thus saith the LORD; IF heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD.
38 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that the city shall be built to the LORD from the tower of Hananeel (Hebrew: mimigdal Chanan-El = "from-the Tower Chanan-El," the "tower God has favored") unto the gate of the corner (Hebrew: Sha`ar haPinaah = the "Corner Gate").
39 And the measuring line shall yet go forth over against it upon the hill Gareb (Hebrew: Giv`at GaareeV = "little-Hill Giv`at" = "little-Hill Flaky/Scabby/Itchy"), and shall compass about to Goath (Hebrew: Go`aataah = a cow's "lowing").
40 And the whole valley of the dead bodies, and of the ashes (Hebrew: haa`Eemeq haPgaariym vhaDeshen = "the Vale of the Corpses and Ashes"), and all the fields unto the brook of Kidron (Hebrew: nachal Qidrown = "Wadi Qidrown," the "Dark-Ashen Wadi"), unto the corner of the horse gate toward the east, shall be holy unto the LORD; it shall not be plucked up, nor thrown down any more for ever.
KJV

These are REAL places named in the REAL Land of Isra'el! This is not just some nebulous, ethereal, abstract "New Covenant"; it is a SPECIFIC, SOLID, CONCRETE "New CONTRACT" with Isra'el and Y'hudah!

...

The Word of God is very clear that Jesus came unto his own as their saviour. As their saviour he was to raise those that had died in faith. That would complete the old covenant promises. While here on earth he also spoke of the new covenant.

Joh 11:21 Then said Martha unto Jesus, Lord, if thou hadst been here, my brother had not died.
Joh 11:22 But I know, that even now, whatsoever thou wilt ask of God, God will give it thee.
Joh 11:23 Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again.
Jesus was speaking of the resurrection.
Joh 11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.
Martha understood.
Joh 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
We are born dead, but when we believe in Jesus we live.
Joh 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
Once we are alive if we continue to believe in him we shall never die.
Joh 11:27 She saith unto him, Yea, Lord: I believe that thou art the Christ, the Son of God, which should come into the world.
Martha believed, so do I. How about you?

HOWEVER, being born again is NOT the resurrection! Believing in Yeshua` is a good START! It is a NECESSARY start! However, Yeshua` will finish the job when He arrives, truly resurrects our bodies from the grave, and transforms them or just transforms the bodies of those who are still alive! Read again the sequence of events:

1 Corinthians 15:51-54
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
KJV

1 Thessalonians 4:13-17
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
KJV

Matthew 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
KJV

Mark 13:24-27
24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
KJV

Luke 21:25-28
25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
KJV
Isaiah 34:1-6
1 Come near, ye nations, to hear; and hearken, ye people: let the earth hear, and all that is therein; the world, and all things that come forth of it.
2 For the indignation of the LORD is upon all nations, and his fury upon all their armies: he hath utterly destroyed them, he hath delivered them to the slaughter.
3 Their slain also shall be cast out, and their stink shall come up out of their carcases, and the mountains shall be melted with their blood.
4 And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree.
5 For my sword shall be bathed in heaven: behold, it shall come down upon Idumea, and upon the people of my curse, to judgment.
6 The sword of the LORD is filled with blood, it is made fat with fatness, and with the blood of lambs and goats, with the fat of the kidneys of rams: for the LORD hath a sacrifice in Bozrah, and a great slaughter in the land of Idumea.
KJV

Isaiah 63:1-8
1 Who is this that cometh from Edom, with dyed garments from Bozrah? this that is glorious in his apparel, travelling in the greatness of his strength? I that speak in righteousness, mighty to save.
2 Wherefore art thou red in thine apparel, and thy garments like him that treadeth in the winefat?
3 I have trodden the winepress alone; and of the people there was none with me: for I will tread them in mine anger, and trample them in my fury; and their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments, and I will stain all my raiment.
4 For the day of vengeance is in mine heart, and the year of my redeemed is come.
5 And I looked, and there was none to help; and I wondered that there was none to uphold: therefore mine own arm brought salvation unto me; and my fury, it upheld me.
6 And I will tread down the people in mine anger, and make them drunk in my fury, and I will bring down their strength to the earth.
7 I will mention the lovingkindnesses of the LORD and the praises of the LORD according to all that the LORD hath bestowed on us, and the great goodness toward the house of Israel, which he hath bestowed on them according to his mercies, and according to the multitude of his lovingkindnesses.
8 For he said, Surely they are my people, children that will not lie: so he was their Saviour.
KJV
Zechariah 14:1-5
1 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3 Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the Lord my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.
KJV

Revelation 19:11-21
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND Lord OF LordS.
17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.
KJV

Thus, the chain of events is...
1) The tribulation period (not seven years, but nearly TWO THOUSAND years!)
2) The sun is darkened
3) The moon shall not give its light a couple of seconds later
4) The stars (meteorites) shall fall from the sky
5) The sea and the waves shall roar
6) The weather in the skies shall be upset
7) People will panic, but not everyone will "sleep" or die
8) The sign of the Son of Man shall be seen in the clouds of the sky with great power and brightness
9) At this point, we are to look up for our redemption - our resurrection - draws close!
10) He will send out His messengers with a loud blowing of the shofar
11) The messengers will gather His elect from the four winds from the lowest point of the earth (also the lowest point of the atmosphere) to the highest point of the atmosphere
12a) God will bring those who sleep in Yeshua` with Yeshua`
12b) The dead in the Messiah are raised to life first (the RESURRECTION) in their New Bodies putting on incorruption and immortality
13) We who are alive and remain are transformed into our New Bodies putting on our incorruption and immortality
14) Death is swallowed up in victory
15a) Meanwhile, Yeshua` has gone on ahead to begin the sacrifice in Botsrah of Edowm (Idumea)
15b) We are all then collectively caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air and meet Him AFTER His clothes are blood-soaked
16) We are forever with the Lord after that!
17) The Lord Yeshua`, the Messiah - the Representative - of YHWH, and His army come to fight the enemies of Isra'el and rescue His people
18) THEN, Yeshua` begins His reign as YHWH'S Messiah King.

 

[keras]

Most of what you state, Retrobyer, is correct but your list of the chain of events is mostly wrong.
The Great Tribulation cannot have started yet, as Jesus said that it WILL be a time of great distress, such as has never been and never will be again. Matt 24:21 And Revelation gives us a definitive sequence of events.
Your numbers 2-7 seem to refer to the next prophesied event that we can expect; that is - the Sixth Seal. That sudden and terrifying punishment/judgement will be instigated by the Lord, but He won't be seen then. Psalm 18:11 But it is at this worldwide disaster, that He splashes His garments with blood. Careful reading of the relevant Scripture confirms that He Returns from heaven, [some years later] in blood splashed garments. He then commences His Millennial reign.
It is not until the end of the 1000 years and the Great White Throne judgement, that those righteous will receive immortality.

 

[Rocky Wiley]

Shabbat shalom, Rocky Wiley.

Retrobyter,

I have put my responses in blue.

[SIZE=12pt]First of all and technically speaking, the individuals from Adam to Y'hudah (Judah) were NOT "Jews." The word "Jew" comes from t[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]he Hebrew word "Y'huwdiy" (through several other languages), which means "of-Y'hudah" or "belonging-to-Y'hudah." Originally, it meant anyone (or anything) that belonged to the man Y'hudah. Later, it also referred to anyone (or anything) that belonged to the tribe of Y'hudah or the sub-family of Y'hudah. Later, this was extended to the Southern Kingdom after RchaV`aam (Rehoboam) messed up and divided the Kingdom of Smoh (Solomon). Y'hudah's tribe, being the largest tribe in the southern portion of the Land, gave that Southern Kingdom its name: Y'huwdiy," which later became "Judea."[/SIZE]
So I took a little liberty is calling them Jews. It was easier and clearer than saying the descendants of Adam and Eve. Although not a Jew, Adam was the first to have a covenant with God.

[SIZE=12pt]Second, Yeshua` (Jesus) did NOT "return in judgment" in 70 A.D! While the events of 70 A.D. were indeed a judgment upon Isra'el,[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] Yeshua` did NOT return at that time! His words were...[/SIZE]
You feel that way because you are thinking in the natural, think about it in the spiritual. God’s word is spiritual.

[SIZE=12pt]I guarantee you that these weren't words used in 70 A.D! The words "Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord" were from[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] the prophecy of Psalm 118:[/SIZE]
Php 2:9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
Php 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
Php 2:11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
At judgment day all did say “blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord” including the wicked Jews.

[SIZE=12pt]It literally means, "[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]Welcome to the one coming in the authority of YHWH[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]: We have welcomed you from the house of YHWH (the Temple)," referring to the welcome of the Messiah.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]This was NOT done (as some surmise) on the first Palm Sunday. Only His few disciples and the children so welcomed Him, but the a[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]dults - the ones who HAD THE AUTHORITY TO DO SO AND COULD HAVE WELCOMED HIM AS THEIR KING - [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]DID[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]NOT[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]![/SIZE]
Are you kidding me, you think that those who rejected him would willingly say “blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord”? That is why I pointed out on judgment day they did.

[SIZE=12pt]Thus, this is NOT the fulfillment of what Yeshua` was talking about! Thus, 70 A.D. was NOT the "end of the age!"[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]"The last enemy, which is death," was NOT "destroyed at the time we were born again and for those faithful of the past at their [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]resurrection promised to Adam and all the faithful"! Death is [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]still[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]prevalent[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] in this earth! All we were given was the [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]PROMISE[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] of life through the [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]DOWNPAYMENT[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] (the "[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]EARNEST[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]") of the [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]Ruach haQodesh[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] (the Holy Spirit)![/SIZE]
Death was defeated when the resurrection accurred for the faithful Jews that were raised on judgment day. Believers never die. Joh 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

[SIZE=12pt]13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye beli[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]eved, [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,[/SIZE]
14 [SIZE=12pt]Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession[/SIZE], unto the praise of his glory.
KJV
[SIZE=12pt]Therefore, we do [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]NOT[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] AS YET [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]HAVE[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] the fulfillment of that promise! We do NOT as yet have the "eternal life" in these bodies! We have the [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]PROMISE[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] of eternal life in [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]NEW[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] bodies! That's a [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]HUGE[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] difference![/SIZE]
Every born again Christian has the promise that they will not die! Just because we must wait until this flesh passes, does not mean our spirit is dead.

[SIZE=12pt]First, we are NOT to be anticipating "going to heaven." That is a MAJOR fallacy of today's "Christian" thinking! We are to be an[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]ticipating our [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]PHYSICAL RESURRECTION IN OUR NEW BODIES HERE ON THIS EARTH [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]WHEN OUR LORD YESHUA` RETURNS[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]![/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Second, IF we go to "heaven" at all, it will be the "heaven" or the "atmosphere" of the Paradise, the New Jerusalem, TEMPORARILY[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]! When we return with Yeshua` to receive our new bodies from the remains of what are in the graves, [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]THEN[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt], we are put within our New Bodies, and we will once again be back on earth to live forever![/SIZE]
Christians will receive that body.
Rom 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
Our body will pass away but we will not sleep as Abraham did, waiting for the promise.

There are basically two thoughts of the last day.

Those of the Dispensationalists and others. By far the dispensationalists out number the others. That does not bother me for Bible history shows that the majority are wrong most of the time. How many times were the Jews taken captive because of unbelief of the majority? How many of the Jews accepted Jesus as their Messiah? If the majority of the Jews could be wrong about Jesus, Could the majority of Christians be be wrong about the time of Jesus’ returned? Yes. The word of God is not confusing, but dispensationalists sure make it that way.

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[SIZE=12pt] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt] [/SIZE]



[SIZE=12pt] [/SIZE]
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[SIZE=12pt] [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt] [/SIZE]

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, keras.

Most of what you state, Retrobyer, is correct but your list of the chain of events is mostly wrong.
The Great Tribulation cannot have started yet, as Jesus said that it WILL be a time of great distress, such as has never been and never will be again. Matt 24:21 And Revelation gives us a definitive sequence of events.
Your numbers 2-7 seem to refer to the next prophesied event that we can expect; that is - the Sixth Seal. That sudden and terrifying punishment/judgement will be instigated by the Lord, but He won't be seen then. Psalm 18:11 But it is at this worldwide disaster, that He splashes His garments with blood. Careful reading of the relevant Scripture confirms that He Returns from heaven, [some years later] in blood splashed garments. He then commences His Millennial reign.
It is not until the end of the 1000 years and the Great White Throne judgement, that those righteous will receive immortality.

That's only because you do not recognize that that particular portion of Matthew 24 (and Mark 13 and Luke 21) is about the results of 66-70 A.D., which cannot be neglected or forgotten! There are contextual clues that DEMAND that this prophecy was for the earlier time period.

For instance, the wall of the city! Why would Yeshua` tell His listeners not to come down from their rooftops?! In His days, there was an escape route from the Old City that involved jumping from rooftop to rooftop to the city's edge and climbing over the connected walls of the city to safety! It was called the "Road of the Roofs." That makes little sense today in modern Yerushalayim which stretches WAY beyond the Old City's walls. Modern Yerushalayim is an "unwalled city" like our Western cities are (unless you want to count the fences around it to control the Palestinian Arab factions).

Another instance is the portion about hiding in the mountains. What good would that do in our modern times? Isra'el's mountains have few caves and caverns; most are exposed to the open skies and one can see a huge amount of terrain with a well-positioned satellite! Infrared vision and satellite investigation would rapidly reveal those hidden in the mountains; their heat signatures would betray them!

Also, one MUST face the fact that much of what Yeshua` said in the Olivet Discourse was DIRECTLY FOR His own disciples (students who followed the mentor/disciple method of teaching); He addressed them DIRECTLY in the pronouns used! He was speaking to THEM, not so much to future generations!

So, from Yeshua`s perspective in 28-30 A.D., those events to come in 66-70 A.D. were indeed in His and their future although now they are a long time in our past.

Regarding His blood-soaked vesture, YEARS LATER He comes back wearing the SAME THING?! Don't they have new clothes in which to change in "Heaven?!" Can't you see that the two events are CONNECTED?!

I do not recognize a "pretribulational rapture." I've not seen anything in Scripture that demands such an occurrence, let alone even supports it! I also deny any "rapture" prior to the Second Coming of Yeshua` the Messiah who returns with the rights to His Kingdom and the power to resurrect His people. Also, I no longer accept a "seven-year tribulation period." That is simply a mixing of two (or more) passages that have no business being equated. The seventieth Seven of Dani'el is NOT the "tribulation" of Matthew 24 or of Revelation. To the contrary, the two halves of the seventieth Seven are "book-ends" to the Tribulation period - a period of almost 2,000 years now! The seventieth Seven was divided when the Messiah left the Jews of Jerusalem "DESOLATE!" (See Daniel 9:27 cf. Matthew 23:37-39.) They are periods in which the Messiah presents Himself to Isra'el as her King. The first time, He was rejected; the second time, He will be accepted!

And, as far as "It is not until the end of the 1000 years and the Great White Throne judgement, that those righteous will receive immortality" is concerned, who do you think is going to rule and reign with the Messiah when He returns?! Just those who are Gentile believers who have no experience in governing people and have absolutely NO idea how to rule over God's Kingdom? Wouldn't it make sense for Yeshua` to use talent with which He is familiar, with which He is comfortable? Talents whom He knows as His OWN relatives?!

Ezekiel 34:23-25
23 And I will set up one shepherd over them, and he shall feed them, even my servant David; he shall feed them, and he shall be their shepherd.
24 And I the LORD will be their God, and my servant David a prince among them; I the LORD have spoken it.
25 And I will make with them a covenant of peace, and will cause the evil beasts to cease out of the land: and they shall dwell safely in the wilderness, and sleep in the woods.
KJV

Ezekiel 37:24-28
24 And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them.
25 And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever.
26 Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.
27 My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
28 And the heathen shall know that I the LORD do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore.
KJV

As Yeshua` becomes the King of Kings - the World Emperor - Yeshua`s ancestor David will be a Prince (a Hero) and King among His people, Isra'el.

Shalom, Rocky Wiley.

Shabbat shalom, Rocky Wiley.

Retrobyter,

I have put my responses in blue.

[SIZE=12pt]First of all and technically speaking, the individuals from Adam to Y'hudah (Judah) were NOT "Jews." The word "Jew" comes from t[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]he Hebrew word "Y'huwdiy" (through several other languages), which means "of-Y'hudah" or "belonging-to-Y'hudah." Originally, it meant anyone (or anything) that belonged to the man Y'hudah. Later, it also referred to anyone (or anything) that belonged to the tribe of Y'hudah or the sub-family of Y'hudah. Later, this was extended to the Southern Kingdom after RchaV`aam (Rehoboam) messed up and divided the Kingdom of Smoh (Solomon). Y'hudah's tribe, being the largest tribe in the southern portion of the Land, gave that Southern Kingdom its name: Y'huwdiy," which later became "Judea."[/SIZE]
So I took a little liberty is calling them Jews. It was easier and clearer than saying the descendants of Adam and Eve. Although not a Jew, Adam was the first to have a covenant with God.

[SIZE=12pt]Second, Yeshua` (Jesus) did NOT "return in judgment" in 70 A.D! While the events of 70 A.D. were indeed a judgment upon Isra'el,[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] Yeshua` did NOT return at that time! His words were...[/SIZE]
You feel that way because you are thinking in the natural, think about it in the spiritual. God’s word is spiritual.

[SIZE=12pt]I guarantee you that these weren't words used in 70 A.D! The words "Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord" were from[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] the prophecy of Psalm 118:[/SIZE]
Php 2:9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
Php 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
Php 2:11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
At judgment day all did say “blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord” including the wicked Jews.

[SIZE=12pt]It literally means, "[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]Welcome to the one coming in the authority of YHWH[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]: We have welcomed you from the house of YHWH (the Temple)," referring to the welcome of the Messiah.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]This was NOT done (as some surmise) on the first Palm Sunday. Only His few disciples and the children so welcomed Him, but the a[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]dults - the ones who HAD THE AUTHORITY TO DO SO AND COULD HAVE WELCOMED HIM AS THEIR KING - [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]DID[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]NOT[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]![/SIZE]
Are you kidding me, you think that those who rejected him would willingly say “blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord”? That is why I pointed out on judgment day they did.

[SIZE=12pt]Thus, this is NOT the fulfillment of what Yeshua` was talking about! Thus, 70 A.D. was NOT the "end of the age!"[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]"The last enemy, which is death," was NOT "destroyed at the time we were born again and for those faithful of the past at their [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]resurrection promised to Adam and all the faithful"! Death is [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]still[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]prevalent[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] in this earth! All we were given was the [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]PROMISE[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] of life through the [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]DOWNPAYMENT[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] (the "[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]EARNEST[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]") of the [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]Ruach haQodesh[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] (the Holy Spirit)![/SIZE]
Death was defeated when the resurrection accurred for the faithful Jews that were raised on judgment day. Believers never die. Joh 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

[SIZE=12pt]13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye beli[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]eved, [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,[/SIZE]
14 [SIZE=12pt]Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession[/SIZE], unto the praise of his glory.
KJV
[SIZE=12pt]Therefore, we do [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]NOT[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] AS YET [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]HAVE[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] the fulfillment of that promise! We do NOT as yet have the "eternal life" in these bodies! We have the [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]PROMISE[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] of eternal life in [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]NEW[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] bodies! That's a [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]HUGE[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] difference![/SIZE]
Every born again Christian has the promise that they will not die! Just because we must wait until this flesh passes, does not mean our spirit is dead.

[SIZE=12pt]First, we are NOT to be anticipating "going to heaven." That is a MAJOR fallacy of today's "Christian" thinking! We are to be an[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]ticipating our [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]PHYSICAL RESURRECTION IN OUR NEW BODIES HERE ON THIS EARTH [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]WHEN OUR LORD YESHUA` RETURNS[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]![/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Second, IF we go to "heaven" at all, it will be the "heaven" or the "atmosphere" of the Paradise, the New Jerusalem, TEMPORARILY[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]! When we return with Yeshua` to receive our new bodies from the remains of what are in the graves, [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]THEN[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt], we are put within our New Bodies, and we will once again be back on earth to live forever![/SIZE]
Christians will receive that body.
Rom 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
Our body will pass away but we will not sleep as Abraham did, waiting for the promise.

There are basically two thoughts of the last day.

Those of the Dispensationalists and others. By far the dispensationalists out number the others. That does not bother me for Bible history shows that the majority are wrong most of the time. How many times were the Jews taken captive because of unbelief of the majority? How many of the Jews accepted Jesus as their Messiah? If the majority of the Jews could be wrong about Jesus, Could the majority of Christians be be wrong about the time of Jesus’ returned? Yes. The word of God is not confusing, but dispensationalists sure make it that way.

[SIZE=12pt] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt] [/SIZE]

You said, "So I took a little liberty in calling them Jews. It was easier and clearer than saying the descendants of Adam and Eve. Although not a Jew, Adam was the first to have a covenant with God." Well, I did say, "technically speaking." It's just always a good idea to use words correctly; it saves a huge amount of time spent in explaining.

You said, "You feel that way because you are thinking in the natural, think about it in the spiritual. God’s word is spiritual." However, you don't understand the words "natural" and "spiritual." First, you may have heard this before, but the words "soul" and "spirit" are "nefesh" (often written "nephesh") and "ruach" in Hebrew and "psuchee" and "pneuma" in Greek, respectively. (Again, I use "ee" for an eta while I use an "e" for an epsilon in transliteration.) So, let's put this in a pseudo-chart:

Hebrew = Greek = English
nefesh = psuchee = soul
ruach = pneuma = spirit

The adjective forms can likewise be put in such a pseudo-chart:

hanefesh (2nd noun of a construct state) = psuchikos = natural
haruwach (2nd noun of a construct state) = pneumatikos = spiritual

And, the two sets of words are related. "Natural" comes from "soul" as "spiritual" comes from "spirit." The word "pneuma" means a "wind" or a "forceful breath." The word "nefesh" means a "creature that breathes." So, when the two sets of words are used in context, such as in 1 Corinthians 15, the contrast between the two is along these lines. One is not a "spirit," a "wind," or a "forceful breath"; one HAS a "spirit," a "wind," or a "forceful breath!" We say that he is "BLOWING HARD!"

Likewise, a person may BE a "soul"; that is, he may BE a "creature that breathes," but that is ONLY while he is living! Once one has ceased to breathe, he has ceased to be a "creature that breathes"; thus he has ceased to be a "soul."

So, when Paul said that there was a "natural body," he was saying, like the first Adam, one can have a "created body that breathes air!" In contrast then, when Paul said that there was a "spiritual body," he was saying, like the second Adam, that one can have a "re-created body that BLASTS air!" THAT'S the meaning behind the word "spiritual," not this fable of some figurative language, i.e., that we should understand something on some "higher plane!"

You said, ...
"Php 2:9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
Php 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
Php 2:11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
At judgment day all did say “blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord” including the wicked Jews."

Wrong tense. Not "did" but "WILL!" At judgment dsay all WILL say...." Secondly, don't confuse the fathers with the children. Not all Jews are "wicked Jews!" That's every bit as racist and bigoted as saying "All blacks are ...." (fill in the blank) or "All whites are ...." (again, fill in the blank)! One should NOT be prejudiced against the Jews just because they're Jews! That's how antiSemitism gets started!

Judgment day was NOT in 70 A.D.! How in the WORLD did you get that lame idea?! Who taught you THAT piece of nonsense?! That person should be taken out back to the woodshed! The Judgment Day (the Great White Throne Judgment) is at the END of the future 1000 years, AFTER the Messiah Yeshua` has been reigning for His first 1,000 years (which is yet in the future)! It doesn't even occur at the BEGINNING of the 1,000 years!

The Jews of Jerusalem in Isra'el SHALL say those words just before Yeshua` PHYSICALLY returns because it is the RESCUE of the Jews for which Yeshua` returns! Thus, the words SHALL be said at the BEGINNING of the 1,000 years - at the BEGINNING of His reign!

You asked, "Are you kidding me, you think that those who rejected him would willingly say “blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord”? That is why I pointed out on judgment day they did." No, again, don't confuse the fathers with the children! While the fathers rejected Him, the children of today's Jews shall NOT reject Him when He comes again! And, yes, we are told in the prophecy that there WILL be those who say, "Baruwkh haba' bsheem YHWH," whatever you believe! In fact, they must NOT reject Him in order for Him to return!

Matthew 23:37-39
37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.
KJV

You said, "Death was defeated when the resurrection occurred for the faithful Jews that were raised on judgment day. Believers never die.
John 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?"

You can't just yank a Scripture verse out of context and expect not to suffer the consequences! Look at the WHOLE conversation between Yeshua` and Marta (Martha):

John 11:21-27
21 Then said Martha unto Jesus, Lord, if thou hadst been here, my brother had not died.
22 But I know, that even now, whatsoever thou wilt ask of God, God will give it thee.
23 Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again.
24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.
25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
27 She saith unto him, Yea, Lord: I believe that thou art the Christ (the Messiah), the Son of God, which should come into the world.
KJV

Yeshua`s resurrection is not the GENERAL resurrection nor is it the BELIEVERS' resurrection! And, death was NOT defeated when Yeshua` rose again! It was defeated for HIM, but not as yet for US! Marta was simply thinking that her brother `Elezar (Lazarus) would not rise again until the Last Day. However, Yeshua` was trying to teach her that HE was the Resurrection and the Life! That HE determines when a man is raised again from the dead! While He was present, He was the very source of life and resurrection, and HE didn't have to wait until the "second coming" because He was STILL THERE!! He's the amazing Son of God with His Father's creative power!

`Elezar believed in Yeshua`, but he died physically anyway. Paul believed in Yeshua`, but he died. Kefa (Peter) believed in Yeshua`, but he died. Yochanan (John) believed in Yeshua`, but he died, too!

Hebrews 9:24-28
24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:
25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;
26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation (rescue).
KJV

You said, "Every born again Christian has the promise that they will not die! Just because we must wait until this flesh passes, does not mean our spirit is dead." Stop mincing words! They have the promise that they will not ULTIMATELY die, but they still must undergo a death and the Resurrection to experience the promise!

Finally, you said,

"Christians will receive that body.
Rom 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
Our body will pass away but we will not sleep as Abraham did, waiting for the promise.

There are basically two thoughts of the last day.

Those of the Dispensationalists and others. By far the dispensationalists out number the others. That does not bother me for Bible history shows that the majority are wrong most of the time. How many times were the Jews taken captive because of unbelief of the majority? How many of the Jews accepted Jesus as their Messiah? If the majority of the Jews could be wrong about Jesus, Could the majority of Christians be be wrong about the time of Jesus’ returned? Yes. The word of God is not confusing, but dispensationalists sure make it that way."

Technically, you don't understand the term "dispensationalist"; therefore, you shouldn't use the word until you've looked it up and understand what it means. I am NOT a dispensationalist. By setting up this argument before "swooping in to save the day," you've effectively set up a "straw man hypothesis." It's a common logical error - an error in thinking - therefore, I'm not upset at all by it. It's "water off a duck's back," so to speak. That is, since it doesn't apply to me, it doesn't phase me a bit.

However, you also need to understand that our bodies will not just "pass away." They will be RESURRECTED! Again, read ALL of 1 Corinthians 15:50-57:

1 Corinthians 15:50-57
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
KJV

Therefore, the pertinent thought in this whole passage is the RESURRECTION! Indeed, this is a mere portion of the great Resurrection Chapter of the Bible! One should read all the way through the chapter, and read it several times, until it begins to make sense to the reader!

Those who have died in the Lord must first be resurrected and THEN transformed into the new bodies which are "flesh and bones" although not necessarily "flesh and blood."

Those who remain alive in the Lord are just transformed into the new bodies. They don't need to be resurrected first.

In both cases, it is only when they have been transformed that "this corruptible" has "put on incorruption, and this mortal" has "put on immortality!" It's not about some nonsense of "going to heaven when we die"; it's about the RESURRECTION when our Master Yeshua` the Messiah - the Anointed of God to be King - returns!

 

[keras]

Retrobyter, We seem to disagree on most things, fairly normal for end time exponents! Jesus Words DEMAND a 1st century fulfilment? I don't think so.
Just one point I will make- time in heaven is not the same as earthly time. To God in heaven 1 day - 1000 years earthly time. Therefore after His judgement of the nations, He has only 'about a half an hour' to wait before His Return, Rev 8:1 coming in garments splashed in blood. Rev 19:13 Do not deny, He comes in garments already blood splashed from a earlier judgement. Think about it and realize the truth of the soon to happen worldwide disaster, as so often prophesied throughout the Bible. Isaiah 24

 

[Rocky Wiley]

Retrobyter,

God is a Spirit and his kingdom is not of this world, it is spiritual. We will get a new body but it will be a heavenly one, not an earthly one.

My words is blue, yours in green.

If you were living in the first century, you would be right. It would be future tense. But we are living today. You understand Greek but not how to read with understanding. Hermeneutics says to understand the bible, we first must look at who the audience is. By using just this one point we know none of the bible is addressed directly to us. All of it was written prior to 70 AD. (I know you will disagree with that, but just as many historians will say I am right as others would say you are.)

Php 1:1 Paul and Timotheus, the servants of Jesus Christ, to all the saints in Christ Jesus which are at Philippi, with the bishops and deacons:
Written to the saints at Philippi in an earlier time, not to us.
"Php 2:9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
Php 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
Php 2:11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
At judgment day all did say “blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord” including the wicked Jews."
Wrong tense. Not "did" but "WILL!" At judgment day all WILL say...."
It was “will” to them, not to us. They are not of our generation.
Judgment day was NOT in 70 A.D.! How in the WORLD did you get that lame idea?! Who taught you THAT piece of nonsense?! That person should be taken out back to the woodshed! The Judgment Day (the Great White Throne Judgment) is at the END of the future 1000 years, AFTER the Messiah Yeshua` has been reigning for His first 1,000 years (which is yet in the future)! It doesn't even occur at the BEGINNING of the 1,000 years!
What? At times you understand Greek then you take the word ‘thousand’ and act as if you didn’t know if was an unknown number.
chilioi
khil'-ee-oy
Plural of uncertain affinity; a thousand: - thousand.
We should know how many years it was, because it is history.
By using hermenuetics we know the last day occured when the temple was destroyed in 70 AD’

Mat 24:1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
Mat 24:2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
Mat 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

The disciples said “tell us when these things be” not “tell a future generation when”.

I ask you to use hermeneutics, and ask yourself “Is God,s word speaking to us directly or is it speaking to another during an earlier time?”. Most of the epistles will give us the names of the recipient and none of them were directed to any of a future generation.

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, keras.

Retrobyter, We seem to disagree on most things, fairly normal for end time exponents! Jesus Words DEMAND a 1st century fulfilment? I don't think so.
Just one point I will make- time in heaven is not the same as earthly time. To God in heaven 1 day - 1000 years earthly time. Therefore after His judgment of the nations, He has only 'about a half an hour' to wait before His Return, Rev 8:1 coming in garments splashed in blood. Rev 19:13 Do not deny, He comes in garments already blood splashed from a earlier judgement. Think about it and realize the truth of the soon to happen worldwide disaster, as so often prophesied throughout the Bible. Isaiah 24

Pay attention to my words, please. I didn't say that ALL of Jesus' words in Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 were fulfilled in the first century. I said that that particular PORTION of His words were so fulfilled in the first century! And, having been fulfilled, they will not be fulfilled again. God doesn't "reuse" His prophecies. When a prophecy has been fulfilled, that prophecy should be taken off the list of "Prophecies as yet to be fulfilled" and placed in the list of "Prophecies already fulfilled."

It's just like Daniel 9:24-27: When Gavri'el (Gabriel) said, "And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation" (Daniel 9:27, KJV), he was NOT talking about some nebulous "antichrist" figure. He was talking about the Messiah in verse 26! The "Messiah" is the antecedent of the "he" in verse 27! How did he "confirm the covenant with many for one Seven?" By submitting to being baptized. God His Father, in response, proclaimed that HE was His beloved Son in whom God was well-pleased. This began the seven years for the Jews, patterned after Yeshua`s ancestor, David:

1 Kings 2:11
11 And the days that David reigned over Israel were forty years: seven years reigned he in Hebron, and thirty and three years reigned he in Jerusalem.
KJV

HE was David's seed that was promised to come:

Jeremiah 33:19-22
19 And the word of the LORD came unto Jeremiah, saying,
20 Thus saith the LORD; If ye can break my covenant of the day, and my covenant of the night, and that there should not be day and night in their season;
21 Then may also my covenant be broken with David my servant, that he should not have a son to reign upon his throne; and with the Levites the priests, my ministers.
22 As the host of heaven cannot be numbered, neither the sand of the sea measured: so will I multiply the seed of David my servant, and the Levites that minister unto me.
KJV

1 Chronicles 17:1-15
17 Now it came to pass, as David sat in his house, that David said to Nathan the prophet, Lo, I dwell in an house of cedars, but the ark of the covenant of the LORD remaineth under curtains.
2 Then Nathan said unto David, Do all that is in thine heart; for God is with thee.
3 And it came to pass the same night, that the word of God came to Nathan, saying,
4 Go and tell David my servant, Thus saith the LORD, Thou shalt not build me an house to dwell in:
5 For I have not dwelt in an house since the day that I brought up Israel unto this day; but have gone from tent to tent, and from one tabernacle to another.
6 Wheresoever I have walked with all Israel, spake I a word to any of the judges of Israel, whom I commanded to feed my people, saying, Why have ye not built me an house of cedars?
7 Now therefore thus shalt thou say unto my servant David, Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I took thee from the sheepcote, even from following the sheep, that thou shouldest be ruler over my people Israel:
8 And I have been with thee whithersoever thou hast walked, and have cut off all thine enemies from before thee, and have made thee a name like the name of the great men that are in the earth.
9 Also I will ordain a place for my people Israel, and will plant them, and they shall dwell in their place, and shall be moved no more; neither shall the children of wickedness waste them any more, as at the beginning,
10 And since the time that I commanded judges to be over my people Israel. Moreover I will subdue all thine enemies. Furthermore I tell thee that the LORD will build thee an house.
11 And it shall come to pass, when thy days be expired that thou must go to be with thy fathers, that I will raise up thy seed after thee, which shall be of thy sons; and I will establish his kingdom.
12 He shall build me an house, and I will stablish his throne for ever.
13 I will be his father, and he shall be my son: and I will not take my mercy away from him, as I took it from him that was before thee:
14 But I will settle him in mine house and in my kingdom for ever: and his throne shall be established for evermore.
15 According to all these words, and according to all this vision, so did Nathan speak unto David.
KJV

In verse 11, God was not saying that Solomon would be one of David's sons but that his SEED would be from David's SONS, plural! Indeed, Yosef's (Joseph's) line came from Smoh (Solomon) and Miryam's (Mary's) line came from Natan (Nathan), both sons of David! Remember, too, that Smoh took the throne BEFORE David's death! Therefore, this "seed" was NOT referring to Smoh!

He did not MAKE a covenant (to fulfill Gavri'el's words in Daniel 9); He merely CONFIRMED the covenant already in place! In the middle of the Seven, however, "for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate." After revealing to them their numerous abominations in chapter 23, Yeshua` said:

Matthew 23:37-39
37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the LORD.
KJV

Verse 27 also says, "in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease." Read what the author of Hebrews had to say regarding Yeshua`s death:

Heb 9:11-10:22
11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.
18 Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood.
19 For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people,
20 Saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you.
21 Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry.
22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.
23 It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:
25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;
26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
10:1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.
3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.
4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.
8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.
19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
21 And having an high priest over the house of God;
22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.
KJV

And, remember what happened at Yeshua`s death on the cross:

Matthew 27:50-53
50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
KJV

Mark 15:37-38
37 And Jesus cried with a loud voice, and gave up the ghost.
38 And the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom.
KJV

Luke 23:45-46
45 And the sun was darkened, and the veil of the temple was rent in the midst.
46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.
KJV

So, Yeshua` Himself fulfilled the prophecies of Daniel 9:27!

Now, many believe that verse 27 is talking about a future "antichrist," referring instead back to the "prince that shall come" in verse 26, but this is not grammatically correct in either Hebrew or in English! In English, the "prince that shall come" is the OBJECT OF A PREPOSITION! That object does NOT take an active role in the main thought of the sentence. It neither is part of the subject nor the direct object nor the indirect object of the action in the sentence. As such, it is also not the antecedent of the pronoun following in a sentence directly after that sentence!

In Hebrew, it is the second noun in a noun construct state. This noun also does not participate in the action of the sentence! It may be part of an adjective or adjective phrase describing the first noun in the construct, but it is NOT the subject or the direct object (or the indirect object, as we would perceive it) of the sentence!

But, it is from THIS VERSE that one gets the idea that the "antichrist will make a covenant with Israel for seven years." But, if it is already fulfilled by the Messiah Himself, then the prophecy can no longer be kept in the "Prophecies as yet to be fulfilled" list!


Second, it is NOT "To God in heaven" that "1 day = 1000 years earthly time!" That's the WRONG REASON for the "formula" in 2 Peter 3:8! Look at it again:

2 Peter 3:1-13
1 This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance:
2 That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:
3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
9 THE LORD IS NOT SLACK CONCERNING HIS PROMISE, as some men count slackness; BUT IS LONGSUFFERING TO US-WARD, NOT WILLING THAT ANY SHOULD PERISH, BUT THAT ALL SHOULD COME TO REPENTANCE.
10 But the day of the Lord WILL COME as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
KJV

These verses are not talking about "time in heaven"; they are talking about God's TIMING when it comes to the Judgment! However, it is saying that the Day of the Lord is a SINGLE DAY! And, this is possible because Yeshua` is also called the "Sun of Righteousness":

Malachi 4:1-3
1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.
3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.
KJV

When Yeshua` reigns for the first 1,000 years of His Kingdom, His LITERAL BRIGHTNESS - His GLORY - will cause it to be a SINGLE DAY, no matter how long that time may be!

Revelation 1:12-16
12 And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;
13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.
14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;
15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.
16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.
KJV

This is NOT just a "figurative description" of Yeshua`! It was LITERALLY what Yochanan (John) saw! This is NOT as I've seen some artists portray Him, with a blue light around Him and ethereal in nature; He was portrayed by Yochanan as the SUN IN FULL STRENGTH!!! Think a bright, sunny day with a yellow sun and bright, white light! What color is "brass burning in a furnace?" What color is a "flame of fire?" Maybe we need to experiment a little to see or take a tour of a smelting factory! If one doesn't know what the description means, then what good is the description?!


Third, consider carefully the following passages:

Isaiah 63:1-8
1 Who is this that cometh from Edom, with dyed garments from Bozrah? this that is glorious in his apparel, travelling in the greatness of his strength? I that speak in righteousness, mighty to save.
2 Wherefore art thou red in thine apparel, and thy garments like him that treadeth in the winefat?
3 I have trodden the winepress alone; and of the people there was none with me: for I will tread them in mine anger, and trample them in my fury; and their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments, and I will stain all my raiment.
4 For the day of vengeance is in mine heart, and the year of my redeemed is come.
5 And I looked, and there was none to help; and I wondered that there was none to uphold: therefore mine own arm brought salvation (rescue) unto me; and my fury, it upheld me.
6 And I will tread down the people in mine anger, and make them drunk in my fury, and I will bring down their strength to the earth.
7 I will mention the lovingkindnesses of the Lord, and the praises of the Lord, according to all that the Lord hath bestowed on us, and the great goodness toward the house of Israel, which he hath bestowed on them according to his mercies, and according to the multitude of his lovingkindnesses.
8 For he said, Surely they are my people, children that will not lie: so he was their Saviour.
KJV

Jeremiah 49:7-22
7 Concerning Edom, thus saith the LORD of hosts; Is wisdom no more in Teman? is counsel perished from the prudent? is their wisdom vanished?
8 Flee ye, turn back, dwell deep, O inhabitants of Dedan; for I will bring the calamity of Esau upon him, the time that I will visit him.
9 If grapegatherers come to thee, would they not leave some gleaning grapes? if thieves by night, they will destroy till they have enough.
10 But I have made Esau bare, I have uncovered his secret places, and he shall not be able to hide himself: his seed is spoiled, and his brethren, and his neighbours, and he is not.
11 Leave thy fatherless children, I will preserve them alive; and let thy widows trust in me.
12 For thus saith the LORD Behold, they whose judgment was not to drink of the cup have assuredly drunken; and art thou he that shall altogether go unpunished? thou shalt not go unpunished, but thou shalt surely drink of it.
13 For I have sworn by myself, saith the LORD, that Bozrah shall become a desolation, a reproach, a waste, and a curse; and all the cities thereof shall be perpetual wastes.
14 I have heard a rumour from the LORD, and an ambassador is sent unto the heathen, saying, Gather ye together, and come against her, and rise up to the battle.
15 For, lo, I will make thee small among the heathen, and despised among men.
16 Thy terribleness hath deceived thee, and the pride of thine heart, O thou that dwellest in the clefts of the rock, that holdest the height of the hill: though thou shouldest make thy nest as high as the eagle, I will bring thee down from thence, saith the LORD.
17 Also Edom shall be a desolation: every one that goeth by it shall be astonished, and shall hiss at all the plagues thereof.
18 As in the overthrow of Sodom and Gomorrah and the neighbour cities thereof, saith the LORD, no man shall abide there, neither shall a son of man dwell in it.
19 Behold, he shall come up like a lion from the swelling of Jordan against the habitation of the strong: but I will suddenly make him run away from her: and who is a chosen man, that I may appoint over her? for who is like me? and who will appoint me the time? and who is that shepherd that will stand before me?
20 Therefore hear the counsel of the LORD, that he hath taken against Edom; and his purposes, that he hath purposed against the inhabitants of Teman: Surely the least of the flock shall draw them out: surely he shall make their habitations desolate with them.
21 The earth is moved at the noise of their fall, at the cry the noise thereof was heard in the Red sea.
22 Behold, he shall come up and fly as the eagle, and spread his wings over Bozrah: and at that day shall the heart of the mighty men of Edom be as the heart of a woman in her pangs.
KJV

Revelation 14:14-20
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth (the ground; the Land) is ripe.
16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.
17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.
18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.
19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.
KJV
Revelation 19:11-16
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
KJV

I'm not denying that Yeshua` will come from another battle with His clothes already stained with the blood. I'm saying that He will arrive with His blood-stained clothes DIRECTLY from the previous battle! There won't be enough time between to change clothes! Furthermore, He's going to continue in His role as Isra'el's RESCUER! It's not about a different time frame (as though there was such a thing). But, this is not about some nebulous "judgment on the earth"; it's all about His REVENGE on those who mistreated His people Isra'el! He is coming as their LITERAL SAVIOR!

Finally, please note that not everything that says "earth" is about a "worldwide disaster!" If it has to do with the sun, moon, and stars, then likely that will be global; however, the words translated "earth," namely "erets" in Hebrew and Aramaic and "gee" (pronounced "gay") in Greek, more often mean the "ground" or the "land," particularly the "Land of Isra'el."

Translators don't know everything. They're human, too. Only God's Word as inspired in the original languages is perfect. Translations are NEVER given the same weight as the original texts! "Let God be true and EVERY MAN a liar!" Translators who constantly bathe their work in prayer have the best chance of getting their translations correct, but even the best of us all MAKE AN OCCASIONAL MISTAKE! While God preserves His Word through their translation efforts, we should NEVER take the position that we can count on every English word we read!

One thing we as teachers of God's Word should remember is that the men and women of the Bible, especially the writers of the various books, were AGRARIANS, not UNIVERSALISTS! They were part of a FARMER and RANCHER society, and their society knew next to nothing about the globe as a whole! They knew of their particular lands, but not much else. In Paul's day, they may have known of the extent of the Roman Empire, but they didn't know about the people in China or Japan or Australia or Indonesia or many of the various countries in Africa or the natives of North, Central, and South America! They probably didn't know about the people in Russia or Sweden or Norway, either! We are VERY good - TOO good - about making generalities, but we really STINK at the particulars of the Scriptures! It's SO EASY for us to broaden our scopes to make general statements and global claims, but it's SO HARD for us to realize that NOT EVERYTHING WRITTEN IN THE BIBLE APPLIES TO ALL!

If we disagree, then we disagree. We can simply agree to be agreeable when we disagree, but I HOPE that you can understand what I've been writing, and at least you've been exposed to a different point of view.

 

[tim alexander]

The Kindom of Heaven is all around you. It is within you. It is a spiritual delling of God. The Kingdom came with Jesus. It is the Way of Truth that leads to Life. This sounds easy to understand but it is perhaps the deepest subject in the Bible. It requires the learning of many ancient secrets to comprehend. I recently wrote a book on the subject: "Secrets of the Kingdom of Heaven". It is only available on kindle at this time, free at the lending libriary.

Jesus said that the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven were revealed to the Disciples. This is because they were initiated. To all others He spoke in parables. However! Jesus taught us how sacred stories should be interpreted as He told the Disciples the meaning of the parables. We too can be initiated into the mystries of the kingdom. But narrow is the path...

 

[Rocky Wiley]

The Kindom of Heaven is all around you. It is within you. It is a spiritual delling of God. The Kingdom came with Jesus. It is the Way of Truth that leads to Life. This sounds easy to understand but it is perhaps the deepest subject in the Bible. It requires the learning of many ancient secrets to comprehend. I recently wrote a book on the subject: "Secrets of the Kingdom of Heaven". It is only available on kindle at this time, free at the lending libriary.

Jesus said that the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven were revealed to the Disciples. This is because they were initiated. To all others He spoke in parables. However! Jesus taught us how sacred stories should be interpreted as He told the Disciples the meaning of the parables. We too can be initiated into the mystries of the kingdom. But narrow is the path...

tim,

I like your response because you understand that Jesus is King. He could not be the King if he had no kingdom. Since he does, there is no reason for him to return. That is not a parable, just plain truth.

May God grant you even more knowledge.

 

[keras]

Retrobyter, I won't reply in great length, just two things;

We are told twice that 1000 earthly years are as 1 day to God in heaven - 2Peter 3:8 and Psalm 90:4, therefore that formula is valid.
God doesn't 're-use His prophesies'? Are you not aware that a lot of prophesies have a dual or even a triple fulfilment? This is a fact well accepted by Bible scholars.

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, keras.

Retrobyter, I won't reply in great length, just two things;

We are told twice that 1000 earthly years are as 1 day to God in heaven - 2Peter 3:8 and Psalm 90:4, therefore that formula is valid.
God doesn't 're-use His prophesies'? Are you not aware that a lot of prophesies have a dual or even a triple fulfilment? This is a fact well accepted by Bible scholars.

Sorry, but neither verse says "1000 earthly years are as 1 day to God in heaven!" They both say that a thousand years IN HIS SIGHT are as a day! BIG difference! It means "from His PERSPECTIVE," not "in heaven!"

Secondly, no. That is a common misunderstanding of a "double reference." As Douglas Connelly said in his book, Bible Prophecy For Blockheads (Zondervan, 2002, page 33),

Techno-Speak:
Double Reference

The term double reference is used to describe a Scripture passage in which part of the passage is fulfilled at one time while another part is fulfilled at a later time. Zechariah 9:9-10 is a clear example. Verse 9 was fulfilled during Jesus' earthly ministry; verse 10 will be fulfilled at Jesus' second coming.

Note: neither section of the example was re-used; instead, each portion was fulfilled or will be fulfilled ONCE in its proper time! THINK: If a prophecy is fulfilled TWICE (or THREE times), how does one determine if it has indeed been fulfilled?! It may look for all the world as a "fulfilled prophecy," but then along comes ANOTHER "fulfillment!" Which one would God say was the fulfillment?! A prophecy like that would be no better than one of Jeanne Dixon's or Nostradamus' prophecies!

Furthermore, Yeshua` (Jesus) Himself LITERALLY fulfilled over 400 prophecies during His First Advent, and they were NEVER repeated!

One of the tests of a true prophet of God was that ALL of his prophecies come true! OT prophets had prophecies near and far. Maybe the far-reaching prophecies would take time to fulfill, but the short-term prophecies could be judged. If people can't tell whether the "fulfillment" was the ONLY POSSIBLE fulfillment, then how can they be any sort of judge on whether a person was a true prophet?!

Some people NEED to have a prophecy fulfilled twice. For instance, the portion of Daniel 11 that speaks of the "abomination of desolation" is an example: IF they admit that this was fulfilled by Antiochus IV Epiphanes as the context suggests, then to make it applicable for one's desire to use those verses for the "Antichrist," that one MUST have the passage able to be fulfilled TWICE! BUT THEN, one must ask WHICH event was/will be the REAL fulfillment of this passage?

Such susceptibility to the whim of the interpreter makes this a case of hypercriticism; that is, the interpreter's interpretation SUPERSEDES the Word of God, regardless what God's Word says! It places the creature (man, the interpreter) over the Creator! (The same thing happens when one questions or denies miracles recorded in the Scriptures. In the '70s, this was called "Humanism.")

 

[keras]

Your argument against I day in heaven being the same as 1000 years on earth is completely specious. God IS in heaven, heaven doesn't orbit the sun, the formula does fit the Seventh Seal, etc. You obviously do not want to believe that truth.

Re dual fulfilment. Please explain Paul statement in 1 Cor. 10:11
Also regarding the prophesies about the AoD in Daniel - none of these were completely fulfilled by A4E in 163 BCE. And why does Jesus say in Mark 13:14 WHEN you see the AoD standing were it ought not.... Anyway if you want to say [wrongly] that it was fulfilled in 70 AD, THEN THAT IS A DUAL FULFILLMENT. 163BC and 70 AD were two partial fulfilments, a careful reading of Daniel makes it clear that neither of those 'desolations' fully fit the prophesies.
So we await the unfolding of the end time events as so comprehensively prophesied throughout the Bible.

 

[Floyd]

From Rocky Wiley:
tim,

I like your response because you understand that Jesus is King. He could not be the King if he had no kingdom. Since he does, there is no reason for him to return. That is not a parable, just plain truth.

May God grant you even more knowledge.

Floyd: I cannot agree with you on this Rocky; Christ Jesus must return to Rescue remnant Israel; and to Rule for 1000 years from Jerusalem.
See: Israel - Prophecy - The Last Days
Israel's new birth: 12:4 (c). Isa.66:8
Israel's new name; 2:17.
Floyd.

 

[Rocky Wiley]

From Rocky Wiley:
tim,

I like your response because you understand that Jesus is King. He could not be the King if he had no kingdom. Since he does, there is no reason for him to return. That is not a parable, just plain truth.

May God grant you even more knowledge.

Floyd: I cannot agree with you on this Rocky; Christ Jesus must return to Rescue remnant Israel; and to Rule for 1000 years from Jerusalem.
See: Israel - Prophecy - The Last Days
Israel's new birth: 12:4 (c). Isa.66:8
Israel's new name; 2:17.
Floyd.

Rom 9:27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:

Rom 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

Paul, letter to the churches of Rome, at this present time (that would be at the time he was writing this letter) there is a remnant.

Tim, I go over this all the time, if Jesus has no kingdom, then he is a false Messiah for this is what he came to do. Since I do believe he is the Messiah, then his kingdom is now. One just has to accept that because it is a spiritual kingdom. Your thousand year response is not biblical.

Mat 27:11 And Jesus stood before the governor: and the governor asked him, saying, Art thou the King of the Jews? And Jesus said unto him, Thou sayest.

Joh 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.
Jesus said his kingdom is not of this world, yet in the next verse he says that this is the reason he came.
Joh 18:37 Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.

Therefore he is King of Israel, and we and the Jews are the children of Israel. There is no reason to return for he is prepared to save whosoever will, Jew and Gentile.

 

[Floyd]

From Rocky:

Floyd: I cannot agree with you on this Rocky; Christ Jesus must return to Rescue remnant Israel; and to Rule for 1000 years from Jerusalem.
See: Israel - Prophecy - The Last Days
Israel's new birth: 12:4 ©. Isa.66:8
Israel's new name; 2:17.
Floyd.

Rom 9:27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:

Rom 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

Paul, letter to the churches of Rome, at this present time (that would be at the time he was writing this letter) there is a remnant.

Tim, I go over this all the time, if Jesus has no kingdom, then he is a false Messiah for this is what he came to do. Since I do believe he is the Messiah, then his kingdom is now. One just has to accept that because it is a spiritual kingdom. Your thousand year response is not biblical.

Mat 27:11 And Jesus stood before the governor: and the governor asked him, saying, Art thou the King of the Jews? And Jesus said unto him, Thou sayest.

Joh 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.
Jesus said his kingdom is not of this world, yet in the next verse he says that this is the reason he came.
Joh 18:37 Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.

Therefore he is King of Israel, and we and the Jews are the children of Israel. There is no reason to return for he is prepared to save whosoever will, Jew and Gentile.

This wrong Rocky!
Floyd.

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, keras.

Your argument against I day in heaven being the same as 1000 years on earth is completely specious. God IS in heaven, heaven doesn't orbit the sun, the formula does fit the Seventh Seal, etc. You obviously do not want to believe that truth.

Re dual fulfilment. Please explain Paul statement in 1 Cor. 10:11
Also regarding the prophesies about the AoD in Daniel - none of these were completely fulfilled by A4E in 163 BCE. And why does Jesus say in Mark 13:14 WHEN you see the AoD standing were it ought not.... Anyway if you want to say [wrongly] that it was fulfilled in 70 AD, THEN THAT IS A DUAL FULFILLMENT. 163BC and 70 AD were two partial fulfilments, a careful reading of Daniel makes it clear that neither of those 'desolations' fully fit the prophesies.
So we await the unfolding of the end time events as so comprehensively prophesied throughout the Bible.

God is FAR more than "in heaven!"
Psalm 139:1-10
1 O LORD, thou hast searched me, and known me.
2 Thou knowest my downsitting and mine uprising, thou understandest my thought afar off.
3 Thou compassest my path and my lying down, and art acquainted with all my ways.
4 For there is not a word in my tongue, but, lo, O Lord, thou knowest it altogether.
5 Thou hast beset me behind and before, and laid thine hand upon me.
6 Such knowledge is too wonderful for me; it is high, I cannot attain unto it.
7 Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence?
8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.
9 If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea;
10 Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me.
KJV

First of all, nobody said that "heaven orbits the sun" (although ... it does). The truth is that "heaven" as another dimension (or some other such rot) DOES NOT EXIST! "Heaven" is the "sky." It's the "atmosphere" around our planet (mostly); it's where the birds fly and the clouds are; it's where weather occurs. And, when one realizes that "heaven" is the "sky," then one can understand that a city the size of that described in Revelation 21 and 22 as the "New Jerusalem" will also understand that such a city will carry its OWN atmosphere - its OWN "heaven" - its OWN "sky!"

It's also important to understand that the Bible says the New Jerusalem is an "epouranios" city; a city "of or pertaining to above-the-ouranos" or "of or pertaining to above-the-sky" that we call "outer space!" This is found in Hebrews 12:22 in the word "heavenly."

Hebrews 12:22-24
22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly (Greek: epouranioo) Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.
KJV

The Seventh Seal introduced a silence in the sky (a LULL; the CALM before the storm) that lasted about half an hour, NOT 20 years and 10 months (1/2 of 1/24th of 1,000 years)!

Regarding 1 Corinthans 10:11, I'm sorry, but what does THAT have to do with so-called "dual fulfillment?"

1 Corinthians 10:1-12
1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
5 But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.
6 Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.
7 Neither be ye idolaters, as were some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play.
8 Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand.
9 Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents.
10 Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer.
11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.
12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.
KJV

11 Tauta de tupikoos sunebainen ekeinois, egrafee de pros nouthesian heemoon, eis hous ta telee toon aioonoon kateenteeken.

11 Tauta = 11 These-things
de = but
tupikoos = (adverb) by-way-of-example/typologically
sunebainen = walked-together//concurred
ekeinois, = unto-them,
egrafee = they-are-written
de = but
pros = toward
nouthesian = calling-attention-to/mild-rebuke/warning
heemoon, = of-us/our,
eis = into/upon
hous = whom
ta = the
telee = ends
toon = of-the
aioonoon = ages
kateenteeken. = have-arrived.

11 These-things but by-way-of-example/typologically walked-together//concurred unto-them, they-are-written but toward calling-attention-to/mild-rebuke/warning of-us/our, into/upon whom the ends of-the ages have-arrived.

11 But these things typologically concurred to them, but they are written toward calling our attention, upon whom the ends of the ages have arrived.

It's also important that you understand that the ENDS OF THE AGES began with the crucifixion but that it's an on-going process not to be concluded before the Messiah returns!

(More to come...)

 

[Floyd]

From Rocky:
Therefore he is King of Israel, and we and the Jews are the children of Israel. There is no reason to return for he is prepared to save whosoever will, Jew and Gentile.

This wrong Rocky!
Floyd.

See: Replacement Theology

Floyd.