Jesus would believe in Evolution?

[DogLady19]

http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2011/04/10/my-take-jesus-would-believe-in-evolution-and-so-should-you/

Found this interesting (and distrubing!) article and thought it might make for some lively discussion.

Here's a snippet of which we should all take notice:
"But when it comes to the truth of evolution, many Christians feel compelled to look the other way. They hold on to a particular interpretation of an ancient story in Genesis that they have fashioned into a modern account of origins..."

Totally untrue! And it's a shame that the world would see Christians as ignorant and obstinate. God created us with intricate well-developed brains that He intends for us to use. I don't know what Christians actually "look the other way" when it comes to science... I do know plenty who follow whatever leader tickles their own mindset without investigating scientific issues themselves.

But then the article says this:
"While Genesis contains wonderful insights into the relationship between God and the creation, it simply does not contain scientific ideas about the origin of the universe, the age of the earth or the development of life."

Now THAT I can agree with! The book of Genesis does not describe the beginning of the universe. It describes the beginning of God's relationship with man. Both Christians and atheists have mistakenly assumed that the first chapter is about the creation of the universe, and therein lies the problem with talking to macro-evolutionists.

Your thoughts???

 

[pom2014]

No they look the other way when it comes to evolution not science.

Many truly believe that they should not have to re-invent the wheel when it comes to their own works. Derivative knowledge is used time and time again by humans.

But for some strange reason, Christians believe that God makes everything from scratch. Every drop of rain, every bolt of lightning, every child, every scrap of food. It's all directly made by God.

As if he is incapable of automation. That he cannot place things in motion that does it all for him. God must be a very busy, over worked and short sighted God to these people.

A lesser god like those of Greek or Roman myths that could only do a couple of things then sleep, eat and drink why like humans.

No my God set up systems to do things without lifting a finger. Complex systems that water the world, change climate, grow food and life, constantly shape it to the needs of glory, all setting it in motion at the precise point in the stellar system to support life in an outer band of a galaxy plagued with hazards that would have destroyed us. All in synchronised motion without having to micro manage it all.

And placed animals that share similar physical traits based on what they need to do, because there's no need to re-invent things when there are base structures already in use. Turn a genome off here and turn another on there. Move one atom here, pull out another there.

My God is awesome, effective, time conscious and a genius.

 

[DogLady19]

No they look the other way when it comes to evolution not science.

Many truly believe that they should not have to re-invent the wheel when it comes to their own works. Derivative knowledge is used time and time again by humans.

But for some strange reason, Christians believe that God makes everything from scratch. Every drop of rain, every bolt of lightning, every child, every scrap of food. It's all directly made by God.

As if he is incapable of automation. That he cannot place things in motion that does it all for him. God must be a very busy, over worked and short sighted God to these people.

A lesser god like those of Greek or Roman myths that could only do a couple of things then sleep, eat and drink why like humans.

No my God set up systems to do things without lifting a finger. Complex systems that water the world, change climate, grow food and life, constantly shape it to the needs of glory, all setting it in motion at the precise point in the stellar system to support life in an outer band of a galaxy plagued with hazards that would have destroyed us. All in synchronised motion without having to micro manage it all.

And placed animals that share similar physical traits based on what they need to do, because there's no need to re-invent things when there are base structures already in use. Turn a genome off here and turn another on there. Move one atom here, pull out another there.

My God is awesome, effective, time conscious and a genius.

When you said "Christians" you must be talking about a different group of people that I call Christians. I have never heard any Christian say they think "God makes everything from scratch"...

Where we differ from some groups is in our belief in macro vs micro evolution science. I.e. Did a single cell organism evolve into a tree, or did a tree evolve into a more adaptable tree? Most Christians have no issue with the latter, but plenty of problems with the former.

 

[River Jordan]

Just as Catholics made the mistake of thinking themselves infallible regarding scripture and the position of the earth, today's fundamentalists mistakenly think themselves infallible regarding scripture, the age of the earth, and the history of life.

Just as we look back with scorn on those Catholics of long ago, future generations will look back on today's fundamentalists.

 

[DogLady19]

Just as Catholics made the mistake of thinking themselves infallible regarding scripture and the position of the earth, today's fundamentalists mistakenly think themselves infallible regarding scripture, the age of the earth, and the history of life.

Just as we look back with scorn on those Catholics of long ago, future generations will look back on today's fundamentalists.

I'm not so sure ALL fundamentalists are buying this "young earth" theory, which is what I think you are referring to... But it does bother me that this stuff gets media attention while the Christians who are actually geologists, cosmologists and anthropologists are being ignored, and sometimes even maligned by these young earthers (who I think lack a proper study of God's Word... AND science!)...

This is why it is so important for Christians to be wise about what they say in the world. The world judges God by the things we do and say.

"The wise store up knowledge, but the mouth of a fool invites ruin." Proverbs 10:14

 

[River Jordan]

I'm not so sure ALL fundamentalists are buying this "young earth" theory, which is what I think you are referring to...

Maybe not, but it's a pretty typical belief among fundamentalist Christians.

But it does bother me that this stuff gets media attention while the Christians who are actually geologists, cosmologists and anthropologists are being ignored, and sometimes even maligned by these young earthers (who I think lack a proper study of God's Word... AND science!)...

This is why it is so important for Christians to be wise about what they say in the world. The world judges God by the things we do and say.

"The wise store up knowledge, but the mouth of a fool invites ruin." Proverbs 10:14

The media goes for "the story", and "those crazy Christians who think the Flintstones were real" gets more readers than "the Christian geologist who recognizes reality". On this issue though, I'm fairly confident that over time it will fade into history as older generations pass on and are replaced by younger, better-educated generations.

 

[[email protected]]

http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2011/04/10/my-take-jesus-would-believe-in-evolution-and-so-should-you/

Your thoughts???

Evolution remains an untested theory. There are actually three of them and they all attempt to prove the other two wrong. Creation, that which is real and in which we live, is an act of God. Everything about the creation was spoken into being suddenly and explosively fully formed and functional. Christians who accept evolutionary arguments have not thought about the spiritual, scientific and philosophical implications of its falsehood.

That being said, I agree with DogLady's statement about the Biblical revelation.

The Bible is the story of the fall and redemption of man. Nothing more. Nothing less.

The Bible is not about dinosaurs, tectonic plate movement, the formation and development of stars and galaxies or even animal husbandry. If you want to study these matters, then it would be wise to consult a book that deals with those subjects. The Bible isn't even about dogs and cats. The story of the universe, written in the stars and in the earth itself, is millions of years old. The story of the fall of man began a scant six thousand years ago and the focus of the Bible is on that subject exclusively.

There are three separate accounts of creation in the Bible, all of them relatively short. It is written there as a witness to God's action in the universe, an act of sudden creation. The Bible simply says He did it. It does not go into the mechanics of the thing, but it does go into extreme detail about the condition of man and how one can be saved from eternal loss.

Every book worth consideration is consistent with it's own theme. So is the Bible.

and that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

 

[StanJ]

When I was a young Christian, I believed my pastor when he taught the GAP theory. It wasn't a big deal then. It took a few years (20) before I had an informed opinion myself. It took a few years to actually form it but today I can say that I am in total acceptance of Gen 1 being literal in it's portrayal of creation. I have also learned through that time that the so-called science of evolution does not really use the same conditions for proof that all other real sciences do.
Although this thread might be something I would take-up on a new forum, on this one the players are well known and intransigent when it comes to accepting God's written word, so have fun, but I can't really see this as going anywhere productive.

 

[DogLady19]

When I was a young Christian, I believed my pastor when he taught the GAP theory. It wasn't a big deal then. It took a few years (20) before I had an informed opinion myself. It took a few years to actually form it but today I can say that I am in total acceptance of Gen 1 being literal in it's portrayal of creation. I have also learned through that time that the so-called science of evolution does not really use the same conditions for proof that all other real sciences do.
Although this thread might be something I would take-up on a new forum, on this one the players are well known and intransigent when it comes to accepting God's written word, so have fun, but I can't really see this as going anywhere productive.

I posted this topic on this particular thread not to discuss the apologetics of evolution but to raise up my concern for this rising tide of fad science for both Creationists and Darwinists alike. There are two groups that are getting loads of media attention for their debunking older theories, and both are poorly researched and fallacious.

How far is this going to go? Like in the past, are we going to see persecution over scientific theory? Will the real scientists be silenced in favor of the fad theories? How do we lovingly bring back our Christian brothers and sisters who have been swayed by this fad creation theory?

The science behind creation and its subsequent evolution have become politicized, as in the politicization of fetal personhood or climate change. Popular beliefs about these issues become muddied by people reading metaphysical scientific theories and confusing them with physical science.

This is also the problem of people who think science has proving that God does not exist. Perhaps metaphysically, they can find some evidence, but true scientific hypotheses can never prove the existence of anything! It can't even prove that I exist, or this website exists!

But this popular fad is growing with media attention, and it invades the important issues that we face as a society that lives on this planet.

No one digs in any more... They just take some media pundit's word for something, and they either lack the ability to do their own investigation, or they deny any investigation is required...

Either way, this is dangerous for our society since so much of what we do and who we are hangs on a sound understanding nature.

 

[winc]

Just as Catholics made the mistake of thinking themselves infallible regarding scripture and the position of the earth, today's fundamentalists mistakenly think themselves infallible regarding scripture, the age of the earth, and the history of life.

Just as we look back with scorn on those Catholics of long ago, future generations will look back on today's fundamentalists.

not at all = Faith of our Fathers = the same yesterday today and for ever - winc

 

[River Jordan]

Evolution remains an untested theory.

Um...no. Evolutionary theory has been tested for over a century, and continues to be tested every day.

I have also learned through that time that the so-called science of evolution does not really use the same conditions for proof that all other real sciences do.

Yeah, people who rely exclusively on creationist sources will get that impression, the same way a person who relies exclusively on Richard Dawkins to tell them about the Bible will come away with a negative and mistaken view.

one the players are well known and intransigent when it comes to accepting God's written word

And we all know that StanJ is infallible and anyone who dares disagree with him is automatically wrong.

 

[DogLady19]

not at all = Faith of our Fathers = the same yesterday today and for ever - winc

This is a prime example of what I am concerned about... the mainstream media's re-defining of "fundamentalist" as crazy ignorant gullible sheep who do not use their brains when to comes to their faith.

They've made "fundamentalist" a dirty word at a time when believers and unbelievers alike would benefit from a return to fundamentalism.

Once a label has a bad connotation, the stereotyping begins, and the spread of the Gospel is impeded (which tells me exactly who is behind all of this!)

 

[River Jordan]

This is a prime example of what I am concerned about... the mainstream media's re-defining of "fundamentalist" as crazy ignorant gullible sheep who do not use their brains when to comes to their faith.

They've made "fundamentalist" a dirty word at a time when believers and unbelievers alike would benefit from a return to fundamentalism.

Once a label has a bad connotation, the stereotyping begins, and the spread of the Gospel is impeded (which tells me exactly who is behind all of this!)

Actually, I think fundamentalists themselves bear a lot of the blame for that. Think Pat Robertson.... <_<

 

[pom2014]

Fundamentalism is reprehensible.

From Jews to muslims to Christians. All of it only causes strife.

 

[DogLady19]

Actually, I think fundamentalists themselves bear a lot of the blame for that. Think Pat Robertson.... <_<

Pat Robertson is not a fundamentalist. John Robinson is a fundamentalist.

http://www.revjohnrobinson.com/writings.htm

See what I mean? Pat Robertson is a media celeb, and he and the media have defined him as a fundamentalist, then his doctrine takes the eyes off of Jesus and on to himself... A fundamentalist would never do such a thing...

Fundamentalism is reprehensible.

From Jews to muslims to Christians. All of it only causes strife.

Fundamentalism means getting back to the basics. The Church as depicted in Acts. Keeping the focus on Jesus and God's grace...

If the people you are calling "fundamentalists" are "reprehensible" then they are not fundamentalists.

 

[River Jordan]

Looks like a No True Scotsman fallacy to me.

 

[StanJ]

I posted this topic on this particular thread not to discuss the apologetics of evolution but to raise up my concern for this rising tide of fad science for both Creationists and Darwinists alike. There are two groups that are getting loads of media attention for their debunking older theories, and both are poorly researched and fallacious.

How far is this going to go? Like in the past, are we going to see persecution over scientific theory? Will the real scientists be silenced in favor of the fad theories? How do we lovingly bring back our Christian brothers and sisters who have been swayed by this fad creation theory?

The science behind creation and its subsequent evolution have become politicized, as in the politicization of fetal personhood or climate change. Popular beliefs about these issues become muddied by people reading metaphysical scientific theories and confusing them with physical science.

This is also the problem of people who think science has proving that God does not exist. Perhaps metaphysically, they can find some evidence, but true scientific hypotheses can never prove the existence of anything! It can't even prove that I exist, or this website exists!

But this popular fad is growing with media attention, and it invades the important issues that we face as a society that lives on this planet.

No one digs in any more... They just take some media pundit's word for something, and they either lack the ability to do their own investigation, or they deny any investigation is required...

Either way, this is dangerous for our society since so much of what we do and who we are hangs on a sound understanding nature.

I understand DL19, and was only voicing my experience both on CB and in general. In a secular environment the Christian POV is ridiculed and condescendingly dismissed as "closed minded". In Christian circles it has polarized to YEC vs Evolution, with OEC coming in second.

I have already seen a form of academic persecution for some and I'm sure it will increase more and more as THAT day approaches...

As I stated, I don't think REAL science ever tries to disprove God, but those who don't believe in God always TRY to use some form of science to do so.

The world global village is indeed getting smaller and smaller and bad/negative news always seems to attract a bigger audience. My age and retrospective helps me to understand this somewhat, but itchy ears are not willing in many cases, to hear the truth.

 

[DogLady19]

I understand DL19, and was only voicing my experience both on CB and in general. In a secular environment the Christian POV is ridiculed and condescendingly dismissed as "closed minded". In Christian circles it has polarized to YEC vs Evolution, with OEC coming in second.

I have already seen a form of academic persecution for some and I'm sure it will increase more and more as THAT day approaches...

As I stated, I don't think REAL science ever tries to disprove God, but those who don't believe in God always TRY to use some form of science to do so.

The world global village is indeed getting smaller and smaller and bad/negative news always seems to attract a bigger audience. My age and retrospective helps me to understand this somewhat, but itchy ears are not willing in many cases, to hear the truth.

I believe it is in Galatians 5 that we are warned against becoming factious. When it happens, it is because we've taken our focus on the one thing that keeps us together - the Gospel.

Sure, we should be discussing evolution and other scientific theory, but only as means to understanding God better, not to decide who is more godly. Unfortunately, too many of those discussions go that way. How sad that any of God's people can look for reasons to reject others but not work just as hard to work together... *sigh*

 

[StanJ]

I believe it is in Galatians 5 that we are warned against becoming factious. When it happens, it is because we've taken our focus on the one thing that keeps us together - the Gospel.

Sure, we should be discussing evolution and other scientific theory, but only as means to understanding God better, not to decide who is more godly. Unfortunately, too many of those discussions go that way. How sad that any of God's people can look for reasons to reject others but not work just as hard to work together... *sigh*

Did you mean 2 Tim 2:14? I'm not sure what you refer to in Gal 5?

I agree, but inevitably this doesn't happen because public forums are open to the public which mean we have no way to know the actual standing of members, despite their assertions. For sure, I've come to see, that when people are open on forums as regards their name and gender and age etc... it is far more likely to be civilized, but the more a profile hides someone's identity, the more they are likely to be left fielders. My opinion of courser, for what it's worth.
Try not to be discouraged.

 

[JimParker]

I don't know what Christians actually "look the other way" when it comes to science...

Now you know.