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Joel 2:32

Discussion in 'Eschatology & Prophecy Forum' started by guysmith, Jun 26, 2013.

  1. guysmith

    guysmith New Member

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    Joel 2:32
    And everyone who calls
    on the name of the Lord will be saved;
    for on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem
    there will be deliverance,
    as the Lord has said,
    even among the survivors
    whom the Lord calls. (NIV)

    So, what do you think God (through the prophet Joel) is trying to say in the above verse?
     
  2. Arnie Manitoba

    Arnie Manitoba Well-Known Member

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    It is all about Israel and it is still future

    I also think it will be a situation (endtimes) (dreadful day of the Lord) when Israel feels so threatened they call for Messiah and are saved

    Messiah comes of course .... and it is Jesus who comes of course .... but the curious part is what name do they actually use ?

    Joel say ..."all who call on the name of The Lord"

    We Christians typically know "Jesus Christ" is the name of the Lord .... does Israel relent at the end and call on Jesus ?

    I have always been curious about that .... we know for certain they call for the awaited Jewish - Messiah - Savior .... just uncertain about what .... "name" ... they use (as per Joel)
     
  3. Retrobyter

    Retrobyter Well-Known Member

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    Shalom, guysmith.

    First, allow me to give us a different perspective. One must understand that chapter and verse divisions are NOT inspired and are subjective. Therefore, the Jewish Tanakh ends chapter 2 with verse 27. This forces an inserted chapter 3 with verses 1 through 5, and our chapter 3 is the Tanakh's chapter 4.

    "Tanakh" or "TaNaKH," by the way, is a Hebrew word formed from the acronym "T - N - K" which stands for...

    "Torah (Instruction/Law) - Navi'iym (Prophets) - Ketuviym (Writings)."

    Therefore, the chapter/verse divisions compare like this:

    English OT : Jewish TaNaKH

    Joel : Yo'el
    ....... : .......
    2:26 : 2:26
    2:27 : 2:27
    2:28 : 3:1
    2:29 : 3:2
    2:30 : 3:3
    2:31 : 3:4
    2:32 : 3:5
    3:1 : 4:1
    3:2 : 4:2
    ..... : .....

    And, here is the Hebrew of the verse:


    Yo'el 3:5
    5 Vhaayaah kol asher yiqraa' bsheem YHWH yimaaleeT kiy bhar Tsiown uwvi-Yruwshaalaim tihyeh pleeyTaah ka'asher aamar YHWH uwvasriydiym asher YHWH qoree':
    JPS Hebrew-English Tanakh

    5 Vhaayaah = 5 And-it-shall-happen
    kol = all
    asher = who
    yiqraa' = shall-call-out
    bsheem = on-name/authority
    YHWH = of-YHWH
    yimaaleeT = shall-escape
    kiy = for
    bhar = in-mountain
    Tsiown = Zion
    uwvi-Yruwshaalaim = and-in-Jerusalem
    tihyeh = shall-be
    pleeyTaah = a-deliverance/an-escaped-portion
    ka'asher = like
    aamar = has-said
    YHWH = YHWH
    uwvasriydiym = and-in-[the]-survivors
    asher = to-whom
    YHWH = YHWH
    qoree': = shall-call-out.

    5 And-it-shall-happen all who shall-call-out in-name/on-authority of-YHWH shall-escape for in-mountain Zion and-in-Jerusalem shall-be a-deliverance/an-escaped-portion like has-said YHWH and-in-[the]-survivors to-whom YHWH shall-call-out.

    Here's the English JPS translation:

    5 But everyone who invokes the name of the LORD shall escape; for there shall be a remnant on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem, as the LORD promised. Anyone who invokes the LORD will be among the survivors.

    Admittedly, the Jewish Publication Society (JPS) wasn't quite sure how to translate the last sentence. Their note for the sentence is "Meaning of Heb. uncertain."

    The three key words in the English are "escape," "deliverance," and "survivors." Unfortunately, in the NIV, these translated to "SAVED," "deliverance," and "survivors." The KJV words it like this:



    Joel 2:32
    32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the Lord hath said, and in the remnant whom the Lord shall call.
    KJV

    So, here, the three words are "DELIVERED," "deliverance," and the "REMNANT."

    And, Paul quoted part of the first sentence of this verse in his epistle to the Romans and it was translated in the KJV as...


    Romans 10:13
    13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
    KJV

    And, today, we TOTALLY misread this verse and misapply it! As I've said before, "salvation" and "saved" are the WRONG WORDS to use when one is referring to God's justification of an individual also called "being born again" and "to whom God does not impute sin" and rather "imputes righteousness." The words "salvation" and "saved" should be reserved for the rescue of God's people, Isra'el, when He returns and fights for them in the LAND. It is a NATIONAL RESCUE, not an individual justification to which the prophecies refer.
     
  4. Eric E Stahl

    Eric E Stahl New Member

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    [SIZE=16pt](((As we come to the end of the tribulation most of the men will have died. In the kingdom 7 women will marry one man.)))[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=16pt]Isaiah 3:24-26, 4:1-4[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=10pt]24[/SIZE][SIZE=10pt] And it shall come to pass, that instead of sweet smell there shall be stink; and instead of a girdle a rent; and instead of well set hair baldness; and instead of a stomacher a girding of sackcloth; and burning instead of beauty. [/SIZE]
    [SIZE=10pt]25[/SIZE][SIZE=10pt] Thy men shall fall by the sword, and thy mighty in the war. [/SIZE]
    [SIZE=10pt]26[/SIZE][SIZE=10pt] And her gates shall lament and mourn; and she being desolate shall sit upon the ground. [/SIZE]
    [SIZE=10pt]1[/SIZE][SIZE=10pt] And in that day seven women shall take hold of one man, saying, We will eat our own bread, and wear our own apparel: only let us be called by thy name, to take away our reproach.[/SIZE]
    2 In that day shall the branch of the LORD be beautiful and glorious, and the fruit of the earth shall be excellent and comely for them that are escaped of Israel.

    [SIZE=16pt](((Only the holy Jews will survive when God judges them.)))[/SIZE]

    3 And it shall come to pass, that he that is left in Zion, and he that remaineth in Jerusalem, shall be called holy, even every one that is written among the living in Jerusalem:
    4 When the Lord shall have washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion, and shall have purged the blood of Jerusalem from the midst thereof by the spirit of judgment, and by the spirit of burning.
     
  5. Robertson

    Robertson New Member

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    That He will deliver His people in the last days. Joel is prophesying of the last days where there will be great wars and signs happening all around. You really need to read the whole chapter, even the whole book of Joel to keep this scripture in the correct context. Anyway, the last days will be a time where the people of God are trying to prepare the earth for His return. They will have prophesies, dreams, and visions. The spirit of God will be upon them. Anyone who says these things cannot be so today is gravely mistaken. So many say those are all things of the past, that there are no more prophets, no more revelation from God.

    As to your specific verse, it has to do with deliverance from the wicked who have tormented those who call on the Lord, or in other words, the covenant people of God. This includes the actual lineage of Abraham and those who have been adopted into that lineage through faithful acceptance and obedience to the gospel. As all hell breaks loose in the last days, those who are calling on the Lord (by faith and obedience to the gospel) will be delivered from the terrible destruction.
     
  6. Retrobyter

    Retrobyter Well-Known Member

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    Shalom, Arnie Manitoba.

    I submit to you that "Christians do NOT typically know 'Jesus Christ' is the name of the Lord!" I believe that they are TOTALLY confused on the issue of the relationship between the Father and the Son, and they DON'T know the name of the LORD! Just look at some of the songs and choruses we sing! We can't make up our minds whether to call Yeshua` (Jesus), "Father" or "Brother!" Some believe that we should call Yeshua` "Father," but does that make HIS Father our "GRANDFATHER?!" And, if Yeshua`s Father is our Father, too, doesn't that make Yeshua` our "BROTHER?"

    There are two different words that were translated "Lord" in the Hebrew OT (the Tanakh); they are "Adonai" and "YHWH." Let's look at them:

    The root word for "Adonai" is "adown," which literally means "one who sets a basis or lays a foundation" and simply means "master" or "lord" in the British sense of the word. Sometimes, the first-person ending (yod) is added and it becomes "adoniy" meaning "MY lord" or "MY master." This is how one would address a superior or one whom one might regard as superior. It is similar to our word "sir." Sarah called Avraham "adoniy" or "my master," honoring him more than she was required to do as a sign of her submissive spirit to him. "Adown" is spelled "alef-dalet-vav-nun-sofit (ending nun)" and its shortened form, "adon," is spelled "alef-dalet-nun-sofit." With the vowel pointing introduced to Hebrew at the time of the Maccabees, that would be "alef-qamets-dalet-cholem-vav-nun-sofit" and "alef-qamets-dalet-cholem-nun-sofit," respectively. "Adonay" (often written "Adonai") is spelled "alef-dalet-nun-yod" and with the vowel pointing, "alef-sheva-patach-dalet-cholem-nun-qamets-chatuf-yod." "Eden" (NOT the land where God's garden was made) is spelled "alef-dalet-nun-sofit" or "alef-segol-dalet-segol-nun-sofit." And, "adoniy" is spelled "alef-dalet-nun-yod" or "alef-sheva-patach-dalet-cholem-nun-chireq-yod."

    OT:136 'Adonay (ad-o-noy'); am emphatic form of OT:113; the Lord (used as a proper name of God only):
    KJV - (my) Lord.

    OT:134 'eden (eh'-den); from the same as OT:113 (in the sense of strength); a basis (of a building, a column, etc.):
    KJV - foundation, socket.

    OT:113 'adown (aw-done'); or (shortened) 'adon (aw-done'); from an unused root (meaning to rule); sovereign, i.e. controller (human or divine):
    KJV - lord, master, owner. Compare also names beginning with "Adoni-".

    (Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)


    1 Peter 3:5-6
    5 For after this manner in the old time the holy women also, who trusted in God, adorned themselves, being in subjection unto their own husbands:
    6 Even as Sara obeyed Abraham, calling him lord: whose daughters ye are, as long as ye do well, and are not afraid with any amazement.
    KJV


    Genesis 18:12
    12 Therefore Sarah laughed within herself, saying, After I am waxed old shall I have pleasure, my lord (Hebrew: v-adoniy) being old also?
    KJV


    Hebrews 11:8-10
    8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.
    9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:
    10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.
    KJV

    "Adonai" or "Adonay" is no different than "adoniy" in Hebrew spelling except for the final vowel pointing of the last syllable. With the chireq ("ee" sound in "bee") changed to a qamets chatuf (the "o" sound in "dog"), it changes to an "emphatic form" of "adoniy" and most often refers to God. Technically, "Adonay" is not a name so much as it is a title.

    HOWEVER, the other word, YHWH, spelled "yod-hei-vav-hei" in Hebrew (with the vowel pointing of "adonay" to remind readers to say "Adonay" rather than attempt to say "YHWH" which may lead to "taking the Name of the LORD your God in vain") IS INDEED the Name of God! Many Jews will call Him simply "HaShem" which is literally interpreted as "The Name!" Some people who dare to speak the Name will pronounce this Name as "Yahweh" ("YAH-weh") while others pronounce it "Yahowh" ("Yah-HO") and yet others pronounce it as "Yahuwh" ("Yah-HOO"). I prefer the latter because of the Hebrew names of so many such as "Mattityahu" ("Matthew"), "Eliyahu" ("Elijah"), "Yesha`yahu" ("Isaiah"), and "Yirmeyahu" ("Jeremiah"), which is God's Name embedded within their own, for each name means something: "Mattityahu" means "gift of YHWH"; "Eliyahu" means "YHWH is my God"; "Yesha`yahu" means "YHWH has rescued"; and "Yirmeyahu" means "YHWH will rise." Back in Christianity's "infancy" of learning the Hebrew behind the OT, the translators inserted the vowel pointing for "Adonay" within the Name "YHWH" and gave us the name "Yahowah" or "Jahovah" or "Jehovah," although that vowel pointing didn't belong to "YHWH."

    Technically, Yeshua` is called "THE SON OF God," not just "God," but the term "Adonay" or "Adoniy" CAN refer to Him because THAT'S Hebrew! It would be calling Him "my Master" or "my Sir" or "Mister," as one's Superior! As the One who will be reigning over the Kingdom of God on the Father's behalf (God's Messiah or God's Representative) and who will be called "King of kings" and "Lord of lords" or "Master of masters" when He reigns over the whole world as the World Emperor, it is the PROPER address for a Master King!

    "Yeeshuwa`" ("Jesus" in the NT; "Jeshua" in the OT) also means something! It is a shortened form of "Y'howshuwa`" ("Joshua"), but that doesn't make it just a contraction of the name "Y'howshuwa`"; it CHANGES the meaning of the name! "Y'howshuwa`" means "rescued of YHWH" but "Yeeshuwa`" means "HE will rescue!"


    Matthew 1:20-21
    20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.
    21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.
    KJV

    I hope you can follow all this, but it basically means that "Jesus Christ" is NOT the name of God! It is the name of the SON of God! Furthermore, "Christ" - a shortened, English-transliterated version of the Greek word "Christos" - is the Greek translation of the Hebrew word "Mashiyach," spelled "mem-shin-yod-chet" or "mem-qamets-shin-chireq-yod-patach-chet" with the vowel pointing. It is His TITLE as the Anointed of God or the Selected or Chosen of God, God's Representative, or God's Choice to be King! It's important that we get this right! We don't want to be guilty of belittling God or blaspheming God!

    P.S.
    I should also have mentioned that both Hebrew words "Adonay" and "YHWH" were translated into Greek as "Kurios," just as both were translated into English as "Lord." The KJV tried to keep the distinction by making "Adonay" as "Lord" and "YHWH" as "LORD," but they didn't do the same with the NT because they translated ALL occurrences of "Kurios" as "Lord," regardless which Hebrew word was meant.
     
  7. Arnie Manitoba

    Arnie Manitoba Well-Known Member

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    retro

    I am familiar with all the "names of God" in the bible

    It also says that the Name of Jesus Christ is above all names in heaven and on earth

    It also says at the end of Revelation that God & Jesus will be given a new name

    So what name should the people in Joel use when they .... "call on the name of the Lord" ..... ???
     
  8. Retrobyter

    Retrobyter Well-Known Member

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    Shalom, Arnie Manitoba.

    Exactly what Yeshua` said they should use:


    Matthew 23:37-39
    37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
    38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
    39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.
    KJV

    He quoted from Psalm 118:26:

    Psalm 118:22-26
    22 The stone which the builders refused is become the head stone of the corner.
    23 This is the LORD'S doing; it is marvellous in our eyes.
    24 This is the day which the Lord hath made; we will rejoice and be glad in it.
    25 Save now, I beseech thee, O LORD: O LORD, I beseech thee, send now prosperity.
    26 Blessed be he that cometh in the name of the LORD: we have blessed you out of the house of the LORD (the Temple).
    KJV

    The Hebrew of that phrase is "Barukh haba' b'shem YHWH," and it means "Welcome, Comer in-name of-YHWH." And, the thing you must also understand is that the "name," both in Greek and in Hebrew, can also mean the "authority." Thus, this also says, "Welcome, Comer in-the-authority of-YHWH." It is the FATHER'S name, but Yeshua`, being His Representative and His Choice for King, is the COMER IN HIS AUTHORITY!
     
  9. veteran

    veteran New Member

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    With the word 'survivors' think 'remnant'.

    Only that 'remnant' that believes on our Lord Jesus Christ will be before Him upon Mount Zion in Jerusalem. That is where His Church is going to be gathered to at His coming.

    Ezekiel 44 reveals the Zadok which means 'the Just' serving Him in His Milennial temple in Jerusalem with all others not allowed to approach Him.
     
  10. Arnie Manitoba

    Arnie Manitoba Well-Known Member

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    Yes ..... i would think that survivors and remnant are one and the same in that setting.

    not to split hairs regarding your second point .... but i see it somewhat different ...... the remnant before him on Mount Zion (presumably were not yet Christians) ..... they are desperate and calling on the Name of the Lord ...... and he does indeed come ....... and it is Jesus ..... and the remnant then realize it and mourn the .... "one whom they had pierced" .... a few minutes prior to that I think they were still "unbelievers" ..... why else would they mourn .

    Just some of my thoughts anyway ...... i have explained it poorly ..... and like i said not trying to split hairs.

    But we must keep in mind a day is coming when Israel realizes the Messiah they rejected is Jesus.

    I feel it is possible that "day" is the gathering on Mt. Zion that we are discussing here.
     
  11. John S

    John S New Member

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    Arnie - Israel will realize that Jesus is the Messiah when they are facing annihilation during the Russian(?) invasion near the end of the Tribulation. They will see a sign in the sky - the Cross(?) - and the invading army will be miraculously annihilated themselves.
     
  12. Arnie Manitoba

    Arnie Manitoba Well-Known Member

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    I think that is obvious

    It all happens during the future ... "Day of the Lord"

    Which of course is what Joel is talking about.
     
  13. Retrobyter

    Retrobyter Well-Known Member

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    Shabbat shalom, veteran.

    And, once again, you show your biased ignorance. Tsaadowq (Zadok) was a MAN! He was one of the descendants of Levi, and it was HIS sons who continued to keep themselves pure when the rest of the Levites went astray like the rest of Isra'el and Y'hudah did. They don't "represent" anything or anyone! Oh, and by the way, the name "Tsaadowq" does mean "Just," but it also means "Righteousness." The name is spelled "tsadday-dalet-vav-qof" in Hebrew and with vowel pointing, "tsadday-qamets-dalet-cholem-vav-qof."


    2 Samuel 20:23-26
    23 Now Joab was over all the host of Israel: and Benaiah the son of Jehoiada was over the Cherethites and over the Pelethites:
    24 And Adoram was over the tribute: and Jehoshaphat the son of Ahilud was recorder:
    25 And Sheva was scribe: and Zadok and Abiathar were the priests:
    26 And Ira also the Jairite was a chief ruler about David.
    KJV

    1 Kings 1:32-39
    32 And king David said, Call me Zadok the priest, and Nathan the prophet, and Benaiah the son of Jehoiada. And they came before the king.
    33 The king also said unto them, Take with you the servants of your lord, and cause Solomon my son to ride upon mine own mule, and bring him down to Gihon:
    34 And let Zadok the priest and Nathan the prophet anoint him there king over Israel: and blow ye with the trumpet, and say, God save king Solomon.
    35 Then ye shall come up after him, that he may come and sit upon my throne; for he shall be king in my stead: and I have appointed him to be ruler over Israel and over Judah.
    36 And Benaiah the son of Jehoiada answered the king, and said, Amen: the Lord God of my lord the king say so too.
    37 As the Lord hath been with my lord the king, even so be he with Solomon, and make his throne greater than the throne of my lord king David.
    38 So Zadok the priest, and Nathan the prophet, and Benaiah the son of Jehoiada, and the Cherethites, and the Pelethites, went down, and caused Solomon to ride upon king David's mule, and brought him to Gihon.
    39 And Zadok the priest took an horn of oil out of the tabernacle, and anointed Solomon. And they blew the trumpet; and all the people said, God save king Solomon.
    KJV

    1 Kings 4:1-7
    1 So king Solomon was king over all Israel.
    2 And these were the princes which he had; Azariah the son of Zadok the priest,
    3 Elihoreph and Ahiah, the sons of Shisha, scribes; Jehoshaphat the son of Ahilud, the recorder.
    4 And Benaiah the son of Jehoiada was over the host: and Zadok and Abiathar were the priests:
    5 And Azariah the son of Nathan was over the officers: and Zabud the son of Nathan was principal officer, and the king's friend:
    6 And Ahishar was over the household: and Adoniram the son of Abda was over the tribute.
    7 And Solomon had twelve officers over all Israel, which provided victuals for the king and his household: each man his month in a year made provision.
    KJV

    1 Chronicles 6:3-15
    3 And the children of Amram; Aaron, and Moses, and Miriam. The sons also of Aaron; Nadab, and Abihu, Eleazar, and Ithamar.
    4 Eleazar begat Phinehas, Phinehas begat Abishua,
    5 And Abishua begat Bukki, and Bukki begat Uzzi,
    6 And Uzzi begat Zerahiah, and Zerahiah begat Meraioth,
    7 Meraioth begat Amariah, and Amariah begat Ahitub,
    8 And Ahitub begat Zadok, and Zadok begat Ahimaaz,
    9 And Ahimaaz begat Azariah, and Azariah begat Johanan,
    10 And Johanan begat Azariah, (he it is that executed the priest's office in the temple that Solomon built in Jerusalem:)
    11 And Azariah begat Amariah, and Amariah begat Ahitub,
    12 And Ahitub begat Zadok, and Zadok begat Shallum,
    13 And Shallum begat Hilkiah, and Hilkiah begat Azariah,
    14 And Azariah begat Seraiah, and Seraiah begat Jehozadak,
    15 And Jehozadak went into captivity, when the Lord carried away Judah and Jerusalem by the hand of Nebuchadnezzar.
    KJV

    1 Chronicles 12:26-28
    26 Of the children of Levi four thousand and six hundred.
    27 And Jehoiada was the leader of the Aaronites, and with him were three thousand and seven hundred;
    28 And Zadok, a young man mighty of valour, and of his father's house twenty and two captains.
    KJV

    1 Chronicles 15:11-14
    11 And David called for Zadok and Abiathar the priests, and for the Levites, for Uriel, Asaiah, and Joel, Shemaiah, and Eliel, and Amminadab,
    12 And said unto them, Ye are the chief of the fathers of the Levites: sanctify yourselves, both ye and your brethren, that ye may bring up the ark of the Lord God of Israel unto the place that I have prepared for it.
    13 For because ye did it not at the first, the Lord our God made a breach upon us, for that we sought him not after the due order.
    14 So the priests and the Levites sanctified themselves to bring up the ark of the Lord God of Israel.
    KJV

    1 Chronicles 18:15-17
    15 And Joab the son of Zeruiah was over the host; and Jehoshaphat the son of Ahilud, recorder.
    16 And Zadok the son of Ahitub, and Abimelech the son of Abiathar, were the priests; and Shavsha was scribe;
    17 And Benaiah the son of Jehoiada was over the Cherethites and the Pelethites; and the sons of David were chief about the king.
    KJV

    1 Chronicles 24:3-31
    3 And David distributed them, both Zadok of the sons of Eleazar, and Ahimelech of the sons of Ithamar, according to their offices in their service.
    4 And there were more chief men found of the sons of Eleazar than of the sons of Ithamar; and thus were they divided. Among the sons of Eleazar there were sixteen chief men of the house of their fathers, and eight among the sons of Ithamar according to the house of their fathers.
    5 Thus were they divided by lot, one sort with another; for the governors of the sanctuary, and governors of the house of God, were of the sons of Eleazar, and of the sons of Ithamar.
    6 And Shemaiah the son of Nethaneel the scribe, one of the Levites, wrote them before the king, and the princes, and Zadok the priest, and Ahimelech the son of Abiathar, and before the chief of the fathers of the priests and Levites: one principal household being taken for Eleazar, and one taken for Ithamar.
    7 Now the first lot came forth to Jehoiarib, the second to Jedaiah,
    8 The third to Harim, the fourth to Seorim,
    9 The fifth to Malchijah, the sixth to Mijamin,
    10 The seventh to Hakkoz, the eighth to Abijah,
    11 The ninth to Jeshua, the tenth to Shecaniah,
    12 The eleventh to Eliashib, the twelfth to Jakim,
    13 The thirteenth to Huppah, the fourteenth to Jeshebeab,
    14 The fifteenth to Bilgah, the sixteenth to Immer,
    15 The seventeenth to Hezir, the eighteenth to Aphses,
    16 The nineteenth to Pethahiah, the twentieth to Jehezekel,
    17 The one and twentieth to Jachin, the two and twentieth to Gamul,
    18 The three and twentieth to Delaiah, the four and twentieth to Maaziah.
    19 These were the orderings of them in their service to come into the house of the Lord, according to their manner, under Aaron their father, as the Lord God of Israel had commanded him.
    20 And the rest of the sons of Levi were these: Of the sons of Amram; Shubael: of the sons of Shubael; Jehdeiah.
    21 Concerning Rehabiah: of the sons of Rehabiah, the first was Isshiah.
    22 Of the Izharites; Shelomoth: of the sons of Shelomoth; Jahath.
    23 And the sons of Hebron; Jeriah the first, Amariah the second, Jahaziel the third, Jekameam the fourth.
    24 Of the sons of Uzziel; Michah: of the sons of Michah; Shamir.
    25 The brother of Michah was Isshiah: of the sons of Isshiah; Zechariah.
    26 The sons of Merari were Mahli and Mushi: the sons of Jaaziah; Beno.
    27 The sons of Merari by Jaaziah; Beno, and Shoham, and Zaccur, and Ibri.
    28 Of Mahli came Eleazar, who had no sons.
    29 Concerning Kish: the son of Kish was Jerahmeel.
    30 The sons also of Mushi; Mahli, and Eder, and Jerimoth. These were the sons of the Levites after the house of their fathers.
    31 These likewise cast lots over against their brethren the sons of Aaron in the presence of David the king, and Zadok, and Ahimelech, and the chief of the fathers of the priests and Levites, even the principal fathers over against their younger brethren.
    KJV

    1 Chronicles 29:21-23
    21 And they sacrificed sacrifices unto the Lord, and offered burnt offerings unto the Lord, on the morrow after that day, even a thousand bullocks, a thousand rams, and a thousand lambs, with their drink offerings, and sacrifices in abundance for all Israel:
    22 And did eat and drink before the Lord on that day with great gladness. And they made Solomon the son of David king the second time, and anointed him unto the Lord to be the chief governor, and Zadok to be priest.
    23 Then Solomon sat on the throne of the Lord as king instead of David his father, and prospered; and all Israel obeyed him.
    KJV

    Ezekiel 40:45-46
    45 And he said unto me, This chamber, whose prospect is toward the south, is for the priests, the keepers of the charge of the house.
    46 And the chamber whose prospect is toward the north is for the priests, the keepers of the charge of the altar: these are the sons of Zadok among the sons of Levi, which come near to the Lord to minister unto him.
    KJV

    Ezekiel 43:18-20
    18 And he said unto me, Son of man, thus saith the Lord God; These are the ordinances of the altar in the day when they shall make it, to offer burnt offerings thereon, and to sprinkle blood thereon.
    19 And thou shalt give to the priests the Levites that be of the seed of Zadok, which approach unto me, to minister unto me, saith the Lord God, a young bullock for a sin offering.
    20 And thou shalt take of the blood thereof, and put it on the four horns of it, and on the four corners of the settle, and upon the border round about: thus shalt thou cleanse and purge it.
    KJV

    Ezekiel 44:15-16
    15 But the priests the Levites, the sons of Zadok, that kept the charge of my sanctuary when the children of Israel went astray from me, they shall come near to me to minister unto me, and they shall stand before me to offer unto me the fat and the blood, saith the Lord God:
    16 They shall enter into my sanctuary, and they shall come near to my table, to minister unto me, and they shall keep my charge.
    KJV

    Ezekiel 48:10-12
    10 And for them, even for the priests, shall be this holy oblation; toward the north five and twenty thousand in length, and toward the west ten thousand in breadth, and toward the east ten thousand in breadth, and toward the south five and twenty thousand in length: and the sanctuary of the Lord shall be in the midst thereof.
    11 It shall be for the priests that are sanctified of the sons of Zadok; which have kept my charge, which went not astray when the children of Israel went astray, as the Levites went astray.
    12 And this oblation of the land that is offered shall be unto them a thing most holy by the border of the Levites.
    KJV
     
  14. John S

    John S New Member

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    Arnie - I don't know if we agree on much but on that we agree.
    We also SEEM to agree that WWIII is what Revelations calls "The Day of the Lord". If we don't, then that's O.K.
     
  15. veteran

    veteran New Member

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    So WHEN do you think that River of Ezekiel 47 is for, and the many trees on either side of it which Ezekiel was given to see?

    For others who don't like important things in a prophecy just left out... like Retrobyter often does, the River of Ezek.47 is the River of Rev.22, and the many trees on either side of its banks of Ezek.47 is the tree of life of Rev.22.

    That helps us put the 'vision' of Ezekiel's temple he was shown in perspective with the vision Apostle John was shown in Rev.22., which is about the layout in the holy land AFTER... Christ's second coming! In the Book of Ezekiel, the vision of that layout begins in Ezekiel 40 and continues to the end of the Book.

    So the ZADOK of that future time represent ONLY Christ's elect that will serve Him in the Milennium temple. And any true Christian knows that only represents His Church and not unbelievers.
     
  16. Retrobyter

    Retrobyter Well-Known Member

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    Shabbat shalom, veteran.

    So glad you piped up again! The river of Yechezk'el's prophecy in chapter 47, indeed for all of chapters 40-48, is for the Millennium, not for the eternal state in Revelation 22. It should not come as any great surprise that the same King can form both rivers but there are significant differences:


    Ezekiel 47:1-12
    1 Afterward he brought me again unto the door of the house; and, behold, waters issued out from under the threshold of the house eastward: for the forefront of the house stood toward the east, and the waters came down from under from the right side of the house, at the south side of the altar.
    2 Then brought he me out of the way of the gate northward, and led me about the way without unto the utter gate by the way that looketh eastward; and, behold, there ran out waters on the right side.
    3 And when the man that had the line in his hand went forth eastward, he measured a thousand cubits, and he brought me through the waters; the waters were to the ankles.
    4 Again he measured a thousand, and brought me through the waters; the waters were to the knees. Again he measured a thousand, and brought me through; the waters were to the loins.
    5 Afterward he measured a thousand; and it was a river that I could not pass over: for the waters were risen, waters to swim in, a river that could not be passed over.
    6 And he said unto me, Son of man, hast thou seen this? Then he brought me, and caused me to return to the brink of the river.
    7 Now when I had returned, behold, at the bank of the river were very many trees on the one side and on the other.
    8 Then said he unto me, These waters issue out toward the east country, and go down into the desert, and go into the sea: which being brought forth into the sea, the waters shall be healed.
    9 And it shall come to pass, that every thing that liveth, which moveth, whithersoever the rivers shall come, shall live: and there shall be a very great multitude of fish, because these waters shall come thither: for they shall be healed; and every thing shall live whither the river cometh.
    10 And it shall come to pass, that the fishers shall stand upon it from En-gedi even unto En-eglaim; they shall be a place to spread forth nets; their fish shall be according to their kinds, as the fish of the great sea, exceeding many.
    11 But the miry places thereof and the marishes thereof shall not be healed; they shall be given to salt.
    12 And by the river upon the bank thereof, on this side and on that side, shall grow all trees for meat, whose leaf shall not fade, neither shall the fruit thereof be consumed: it shall bring forth new fruit according to his months, because their waters they issued out of the sanctuary: and the fruit thereof shall be for meat, and the leaf thereof for medicine.
    KJV


    Revelation 22:1-5
    1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
    2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
    3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:
    4 And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.
    5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.
    KJV


    Can you not see the differences? or have the similarities all but clouded your mind to the differences?

    One of the BIGGEST differences is in the sizes of the cities. The Jerusalem of Yechezk'el's prophecy is 4,500 cubits by 4,500 cubits, or 1.2784 miles by 1.2784 miles, which is a fair-sized city by today's standards. The New Jerusalem that Yochanan (John) sees is 1,500 miles by 1,500 miles by 1,500 miles! This is a HUGE city that towers above Mount Everest as though it was a bump on the road! One mile and 1,470 feet is somewhat large, but 1,500 MILES is SO big that we must calculate the effects of the earth's curvature upon its foundations and its walls!
     
  17. veteran

    veteran New Member

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    Now... there's TWO Rivers of The Waters of Life????

    That just shows how messed up your mind doctrines of Judaism have caused upon you.

    No, there's only ONE River of The Waters of Life per God's Word. And it manifests ON EARTH during Christ's Milennial reign with His elect Church.


    So WHY would orthodox Judaism TRY to push TWO Rivers? It's simple folks. Satan's followers in Jerusalem of the "synagogue of Satan" that are preparing another temple there for their 'king' CANNOT mimic God's River of the waters of life that will flow out of His Milennial sanctuary in Jerusalem per Ezekiel 47. THAT is one of the ways we will know this coming attempt in Jerusalem to mimic Christ's True Kingdom having come will be just a fake attempt.
     
  18. Retrobyter

    Retrobyter Well-Known Member

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    Shabbat shalom, veteran.

    First, what does orthodox Judaism have to do with it?
    Second, who are you talking to? "Folks?" What "folks?!" Are you playing to an audience? Actually, that WOULD explain a lot!
    Third, what "synagogue of Satan?" Are you going to a Satanic synagogue that you haven't told us about? C'mon, spill it!

    Seriously, though, you haven't studied this issue very well.

    Zechariah 14:1-9
    1 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
    2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
    3 Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
    4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
    5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the Lord my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.
    6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:
    7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the Lord, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.
    8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.
    9 And the Lord shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one Lord, and his name one.
    KJV

    LOL! You already HAVE two rivers in ONE prophecy! One of these rivers is what Yechezk'el saw flowing from under the portal, flowing to the Dead Sea (which will have to be renamed). The other river flows to the west and finally to the Mediterranean Sea.

    They will each be lovely rivers, and I expect that BOTH rivers will be lined with trees of all sorts loaded with fruit.

    Now, let's fast forward a THOUSAND YEARS into the future from this prophecy. The beauty of the New Jerusalem is the sheer SIZE of this city! It is FAR BIGGER than the Millennial Jerusalem! The city will TOWER 1,500 miles, well above the earth's atmosphere! Since 95% of the earth's atmosphere is within 200 miles from the earth's surface, we're being told about a city that is six times that (and more) above the earth's atmosphere! The New Jerusalem will contain its own atmosphere on all of its many levels.

    The city has TWELVE gates and each gate is connected to the city street! If the river of the water of life flows down the middle of the street like a median, it will exit the city at each of its twelve gates! There will be TWELVE RIVERS, flowing in one of twelve different directions! Three heading east, three heading south, three heading west, and three heading north! Each gate will be separated from the other gates by 500 miles! And, the tree of life species - consisting of MANY individual trees - will follow that river in all those directions out onto the surface of the New Earth!

    Nah, this has nothing to do with "orthodox Judaism." It's simply a matter of mathematics and understanding the physics of such a New Earth. I believe that the New Earth will be comparable to the First Earth before the Flood, and animals will live longer lives as they did before the Flood. A lizard, such as a Johnston's Chameleon, will live twelve to thirteen times longer (at least) and will once again grow to 55 or 60 feet in length! "Triceratops" will exist once again! Monitor lizards will likewise grow twelve to thirteen times longer and twill once again grow twelve to thirteen times bigger! A bipedal dinosaur (thunder-lizard), like a Tyrannosaurus Rex, will live again! Only, "they will not hurt nor destroy in all His holy mountain!" And, like the lion that eats straw like an ox, so these animals - even if once carnivores (although I believe all dinosaurs were herbivorous) - will be herbivorous and docile! All of our personal pets and animals will be there, resurrected from our memories and from the old earth, and why not? Why shouldn't innocent animals, animals that we love, have the same chance at a resurrection as human beings who were wholly given over to sin in their lifetimes have?
     
  19. veteran

    veteran New Member

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    What does orthodox Judaism have to do with it?

    Do you forget that I have friends that are Messianics?

    Like I said before, you can't follow the doctrines of the Jews (Judaism) and Christ Jesus too. They are incompatible.
     
  20. Retrobyter

    Retrobyter Well-Known Member

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    Shalom, veteran.

    Bah, that's foolish talk. Listen to "Christ Jesus" or rather "the MESSIAH YESHUA`!" He was also a Jew and an Isra'elite. I agree with you that one shouldn't listen to all the baloney that is taught in the Talmud, but the TRUE doctrines of the Jews, which come from the Tanakh - the OT - are certainly NOT "incompatible" with our Lord's teachings!

    Furthermore, it wouldn't hurt you to listen a little better to KNOWLEDGEABLE Messianic believers. Not all who claim Messianic Judaism know what that means, just like not all who claim Christianity understand the New Birth! As in all belief systems, it all depends on who is doing the teaching and how well the students are listening and learning! Don't fear it and run from it; run TO it and EMBRACE it! There's a little chorus that Messianics sing that is really the heart of Ephesians, Romans 11, and Galatians:

    Jews and Gentiles, 6-6-7-6
    One in the Spi-irit, 5-5-6-3-2-1
    One in Messi-iah, 5-5-6-3-2-1
    Worship toge-ether, 5-5-5-5.5-6-7-


    Jews and Gentiles, 6-6-7-6
    One in the Spi-irit, 5-5-6-3-2-1
    Come, let us worship the LORD! 5-5-6-5-3-4-5-6

    (This was done by memory and may not be exactly accurate, but it's close enough. Also, the numbers represent do-re-mi-fa-so-la-ti-do as 1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8. It's sung in 4/4 timing and when there are six notes in a measure, the middle four are eighth notes. Finally, the 5.5 is a half-step between so and la. It's my shorthand for writing music when just using text. The lone dash after the 7 means to draw it out like a firmata. The song is usually sung to guitar.)
     
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