John 14:15 Is obedience a cause or effect?

[lforrest]

I have long looked at John 14:15 according to how it is written in the NIV and KJV. But I was confronted with another translation that was quoted in a book I'm reading. This translation seems to carry a different meaning altogether. http://biblehub.com/john/14-15.htm

[SIZE=14.3999996185303px]John 14:15[/SIZE]
NIV : "If you love me, keep my commands"
KJV : "If ye love me, keep my commandments"

These translations seem to imply that only those who keep his commandments actually love Jesus.


ESV: "If you love me, you will keep my commandments."

This translation, among others, seems to imply that our compulsion to keep the commandments is a result of our love for Jesus.

So which is it?

 

[Johnlove]

I have long looked at John 14:15 according to how it is written in the NIV and KJV. But I was confronted with another translation that was quoted in a book I'm reading. This translation seems to carry a different meaning altogether. http://biblehub.com/john/14-15.htm

[SIZE=14.3999996185303px]John 14:15[/SIZE]
NIV : "If you love me, keep my commands"
KJV : "If ye love me, keep my commandments"

These translations seem to imply that only those who keep his commandments actually love Jesus.


ESV: "If you love me, you will keep my commandments."

This translation, among others, seems to imply that our compulsion to keep the commandments is a result of our love for Jesus.

So which is it?

[SIZE=16pt]Jesus tells us that very plainly in the following scripture.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]([/SIZE][SIZE=16pt]John 14: 23) “Anyone who loves me will keep my word and my Father will love him, and we shall come to him and make a home in him.”[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]Notice Jesus said anyone who loves him will keep his word.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt](John 14:21) “Anybody who receives my commandments and keeps them will be one who loves me; and anybody who loves me will be loved by My Father, and I shall love him and show myself to him.” [/SIZE]

 

[HammerStone]

I would view this passage a lot like John 3:16.

Because of tradition, you end up with "For God so loved the world..." The typical English reader sees the word "so" and interprets it to mean degree. It's what one means when he or she says "I love you so much!" In reality, it refers to the manner in which God loved the world. In other words, "God loved the world in this way, so he ..."

The HCSB does a great job with distinguishing this for the modern reader:

John 3:16 HCSB
“For God loved the world in this way: He gave His One and Only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish but have eternal life.

In John 14:15, the HCSB does what the ESV, NASB and others do. The HCSB actually include a footnote:

John 14:15 Other mss read If you love Me, keep (as a command)

With that said, I think this method of translation is clearer to the modern reader. However, what is communicated in the ESV, HCSB, et al. would be tenable in the old KJV translation. It's really not a verb tense issue as "keep" can also mean "will keep" in the future. What I mean is that if I am told to keep something, the implication is that I will be keeping into the future.

With those clear as mud statements I just made, the focus of the sentence is on love for Jesus. Obedience is an effect. The purpose of the statement is love for Jesus. He is saying, in effect: "If you truly love me and wish to have a living relationship with me, then you need to actually keep and live out what I say." It's just a spin on what James later says: "Faith without works is dead" (James 2:26).

 

[Born_Again]

I think it's being over thought.... "if you love me, you will keep my commandments." Seems simple. I see it this way... If you truly love Christ, you will keep his commands, thus leading a Godly life... Seems easy enough.... Yes? No?

 

[lforrest]

It appears to me that the ESV translation carries deeper meaning, as the others do not hint at the cause and effect relationship of love leading to obedience. Too often have I seen this scripture used like a hammer to pummel Christians into doubting their inheritance. [SIZE=14.3999996185303px]When the scripture is actually intended to be hopeful. [/SIZE]

I'll quote from the book. "When you love and know that you are loved obedience is natural. You will find sin hideous. You will be holy simply because you cannot stand the thought of hurting the One you love."

 

[HammerStone]

The distinction is one of acting (carrying out the laws) out of love and not compulsion. The mistake the Pharisees and others made was to carry out law for law's sake, and to even create laws to prevent breaking more laws. If we love Christ, then quite naturally we wish to please the Son of God by doing what he says to do! The end goal of the law is Christ, not the law itself or even obedience. It's a subtle distinction.

 

[Johnlove]

The distinction is one of acting (carrying out the laws) out of love and not compulsion. The mistake the Pharisees and others made was to carry out law for law's sake, and to even create laws to prevent breaking more laws. If we love Christ, then quite naturally we wish to please the Son of God by doing what he says to do! The end goal of the law is Christ, not the law itself or even obedience. It's a subtle distinction.

[SIZE=16pt]The Jews did not have the Holy Spirit, so it was up to them to use their will power to obey God. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt]Christians have the Holy Spirit who gives him or her the grace to obey God. Also the Holy Spirit lets one know how to obey God.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt]All the honor and glory for one obeying God belongs to God, and not the person who obeys God. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt]Paul explained that in Romans seven. He was telling us that it was next to impossible for one to not sin unless he or she had the Holy Spirit.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt]In Romans eight Paul tells us that is true.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt](Romans 8: 4) “He did this in order that the law’s just demands might be satisfied in us, who behave not as our unspiritual nature but as the Spirit dictates.”[/SIZE]

 

[heretoeternity]

I think it's being over thought.... "if you love me, you will keep my commandments." Seems simple. I see it this way... If you truly love Christ, you will keep his commands, thus leading a Godly life... Seems easy enough.... Yes? No?

You are right on, it is simple, but some people seem to have too much spare time on their hands and want to make something which is simple very complicated..lol!

I think it's being over thought.... "if you love me, you will keep my commandments." Seems simple. I see it this way... If you truly love Christ, you will keep his commands, thus leading a Godly life... Seems easy enough.... Yes? No?

You are right on, it is simple, but some people seem to have too much spare time on their hands and want to make something which is simple very complicated..lol!

 

[HearGod]

I have long looked at John 14:15 according to how it is written in the NIV and KJV. But I was confronted with another translation that was quoted in a book I'm reading. This translation seems to carry a different meaning altogether. http://biblehub.com/john/14-15.htm

[SIZE=14.3999996185303px]John 14:15[/SIZE]
NIV : "If you love me, keep my commands"
KJV : "If ye love me, keep my commandments"

These translations seem to imply that only those who keep his commandments actually love Jesus.


ESV: "If you love me, you will keep my commandments."

This translation, among others, seems to imply that our compulsion to keep the commandments is a result of our love for Jesus.

So which is it?

This one is easy.

ESV is acceptable. The "will keep" (τηρήσατε will observe/watch/guard) is in the future tense.

Both NIV and KJV are ridiculously wrong. The "if" is in the subjunctive mood, and τηρήσατε is definitely not in the imperative mood.

Johnlove, SIT! STAY!

The HCSB does a great job with distinguishing this for the modern reader:

John 3:16 HCSB
“For God loved the world in this way: He gave His One and Only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish but have eternal life.

John 3:16 HCSB
“For God ____ loved the world in this way: He gave His One and Only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish but have eternal life.


HCSB stinks.

Nestle GNT 1904
Οὕτως γὰρ ἠγάπησεν ὁ Θεὸς τὸν κόσμον, ὥστε τὸν Υἱὸν τὸν μονογενῆ ἔδωκεν, ἵνα πᾶς ὁ πιστεύων εἰς αὐτὸν μὴ ἀπόληται ἀλλ’ ἔχῃ ζωὴν αἰώνιον.

Stephanus Textus Receptus 1550
Οὕτως γὰρ ἠγάπησεν ὁ θεὸς τὸν κόσμον ὥστε τὸν υἱὸν αὐτοῦ τὸν μονογενῆ ἔδωκεν ἵνα πᾶς ὁ πιστεύων εἰς αὐτὸν μὴ ἀπόληται ἀλλ' ἔχῃ ζωὴν αἰώνιον

Οὕτως (adverb) - so (thus, after that)
This adverb is required to modify/enhance the verb, "loved." (HCSB corruptly removed God's word)

ὥστε (conjunction) - therefore (thus)
It is a conjunction, not: in this way

μονογενῆ (adjective) - only engendered (only born)
It does not mean: One and Only

πιστεύων (active present Participle verb) - is having faith
Big difference from believes

ἀπόληται (aorist Subjunctive verb) - would/should/might [be] lost (should not [be] destroyed)
The antonym of "lost/destroyed" is "found/saved." The word "perish" is unscriptural.

ἔχῃ (active present Subjunctive verb) - may/might have
Not guaranteed to: have

αἰώνιον (adjective) - aionios (say, XXX [life])
This word does not mean eternal. In its proper context, Yehshua was not even talking about the afterlife of any "believer."

----

What is αἰώνιον (adjective) - aionios (say, XXX [life])? Yehshua taught:

John 17:3 (My rough cut)
“BUT (However,) this is the αἰώνιον life: in order that they may experientially know You, the only true God, and Anointed Yehshua whom You sent (verb apostello -- as an Apostle or on an Apostolic mission ).”

It's all about having an experiential knowledge and relationship with the One and Only true Father YHVH God AND our lord Christ Yehshua here and now (and then after, Johnlove, Duh! )

This one is easy.

ESV is acceptable. The "will keep" (τηρήσατε will observe/watch/guard) is in the future tense.

Both NIV and KJV are ridiculously wrong. The "if" is in the subjunctive mood, and τηρήσατε is definitely not in the imperative mood.

Johnlove, SIT! STAY!


John 3:16 HCSB
“For God ____ loved the world in this way: He gave His One and Only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish but have eternal life.


HCSB stinks.

Nestle GNT 1904
Οὕτως γὰρ ἠγάπησεν ὁ Θεὸς τὸν κόσμον, ὥστε τὸν Υἱὸν τὸν μονογενῆ ἔδωκεν, ἵνα πᾶς ὁ πιστεύων εἰς αὐτὸν μὴ ἀπόληται ἀλλ’ ἔχῃ ζωὴν αἰώνιον.

Stephanus Textus Receptus 1550
Οὕτως γὰρ ἠγάπησεν ὁ θεὸς τὸν κόσμον ὥστε τὸν υἱὸν αὐτοῦ τὸν μονογενῆ ἔδωκεν ἵνα πᾶς ὁ πιστεύων εἰς αὐτὸν μὴ ἀπόληται ἀλλ' ἔχῃ ζωὴν αἰώνιον

Οὕτως (adverb) - so (thus, after that)
This adverb is required to modify/enhance the verb, "loved." (HCSB corruptly removed God's word)

ὥστε (conjunction) - therefore (thus)
It is a conjunction, not: in this way

μονογενῆ (adjective) - only engendered (only born)
It does not mean: One and Only

πιστεύων (active present Participle verb) - is having faith
Big difference from believes

ἀπόληται (aorist Subjunctive verb) - would/should/might [be] lost (should not [be] destroyed)
The antonym of "lost/destroyed" is "found/saved." The word "perish" is unscriptural.

ἔχῃ (active present Subjunctive verb) - may/might have
Not guaranteed to: have

αἰώνιον (adjective) - aionios (say, XXX [life])
This word does not mean eternal. In its proper context, Yehshua was not even talking about the afterlife of any "believer."

----

What is αἰώνιον (adjective) - aionios (say, XXX [life])? Yehshua taught:

John 17:3 (My rough cut)
“BUT (However,) this is the αἰώνιον life: in order that they may experientially know You, the only true God, and Anointed Yehshua whom You sent (verb apostello -- as an Apostle or on an Apostolic mission ).”

It's all about having an experiential knowledge and relationship with the One and Only true Father YHVH God AND our lord Christ Yehshua here and now (and then after, Johnlove, Duh! )

ἀπόληται (aorist Subjunctive verb) - would/should/might [be] lost (should not [be] destroyed)

It is interesting to note that there is no exact English equivalent for this Greek verb: to cause [something] to be lost/destroyed, and the reason why it behooved me to change it practically into the passive voice.

 

[Johnlove]

This one is easy.

ESV is acceptable. The "will keep" (τηρήσατε will observe/watch/guard) is in the future tense.

Both NIV and KJV are ridiculously wrong. The "if" is in the subjunctive mood, and τηρήσατε is definitely not in the imperative mood.

Johnlove, SIT! STAY!


John 3:16 HCSB
“For God ____ loved the world in this way: He gave His One and Only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish but have eternal life.


HCSB stinks.

Nestle GNT 1904
Οὕτως γὰρ ἠγάπησεν ὁ Θεὸς τὸν κόσμον, ὥστε τὸν Υἱὸν τὸν μονογενῆ ἔδωκεν, ἵνα πᾶς ὁ πιστεύων εἰς αὐτὸν μὴ ἀπόληται ἀλλ’ ἔχῃ ζωὴν αἰώνιον.

Stephanus Textus Receptus 1550
Οὕτως γὰρ ἠγάπησεν ὁ θεὸς τὸν κόσμον ὥστε τὸν υἱὸν αὐτοῦ τὸν μονογενῆ ἔδωκεν ἵνα πᾶς ὁ πιστεύων εἰς αὐτὸν μὴ ἀπόληται ἀλλ' ἔχῃ ζωὴν αἰώνιον

Οὕτως (adverb) - so (thus, after that)
This adverb is required to modify/enhance the verb, "loved." (HCSB corruptly removed God's word)

ὥστε (conjunction) - therefore (thus)
It is a conjunction, not: in this way

μονογενῆ (adjective) - only engendered (only born)
It does not mean: One and Only

πιστεύων (active present Participle verb) - is having faith
Big difference from believes

ἀπόληται (aorist Subjunctive verb) - would/should/might [be] lost (should not [be] destroyed)
The antonym of "lost/destroyed" is "found/saved." The word "perish" is unscriptural.

ἔχῃ (active present Subjunctive verb) - may/might have
Not guaranteed to: have

αἰώνιον (adjective) - aionios (say, XXX [life])
This word does not mean eternal. In its proper context, Yehshua was not even talking about the afterlife of any "believer."

----

What is αἰώνιον (adjective) - aionios (say, XXX [life])? Yehshua taught:

John 17:3 (My rough cut)
“BUT (However,) this is the αἰώνιον life: in order that they may experientially know You, the only true God, and Anointed Yehshua whom You sent (verb apostello -- as an Apostle or on an Apostolic mission ).”

It's all about having an experiential knowledge and relationship with the One and Only true Father YHVH God AND our lord Christ Yehshua here and now (and then after, Johnlove, Duh! )


ἀπόληται (aorist Subjunctive verb) - would/should/might [be] lost (should not [be] destroyed)

It is interesting to note that there is no exact English equivalent for this Greek verb: to cause [something] to be lost/destroyed, and the reason why it behooved me to change it practically into the passive voice.

[SIZE=16pt]All the time spent trying to understand the correct meaning of the written Word of God?[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]Does that make anyone a better person? Meaning a person who walks as Jesus walked?[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]The only way one can come to know God, and live the Commandments of God is to allow the Holy Spirit/Jesus teach him or her the true understanding of the written Word, of what Jesus taught. [/SIZE]

 

[lforrest]

Thank you HearGod and HS, I had expected the ESV translation to be better, but needed confirmation. I'm glad you take the message of 2 Timothy 2:15 and Acts 17:11 seriously.

 

[HearGod]

Thank you HearGod and HS, I had expected the ESV translation to be better, but needed confirmation. I'm glad you take the message of 2 Timothy 2:15 and Acts 17:11 seriously.

Nope, the half-truths of ESV is just as bad. Sorry!

John 4:15-17 (ESV)
15[SIZE=15.454545021057129px]“If you love me, you will keep my commandments.[/SIZE] 16[SIZE=15.454545021057129px]And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper,f[/SIZE] to be with you forever, 17[SIZE=15.454545021057129px]even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him. You know him, for he dwells with you and will beg[/SIZE] in you.

 

[lforrest]

I meant the translation is better for this specific verse. I still prefer the NIV (84) in general.

 

[HearGod]

I have long looked at John 14:15 according to how it is written in the NIV and KJV. But I was confronted with another translation that was quoted in a book I'm reading. This translation seems to carry a different meaning altogether. http://biblehub.com/john/14-15.htm

[SIZE=14.3999996185303px]John 14:15[/SIZE]
NIV : "If you love me, keep my commands"
KJV : "If ye love me, keep my commandments"

These translations seem to imply that only those who keep his commandments actually love Jesus.


ESV: "If you love me, you will keep my commandments."

This translation, among others, seems to imply that our compulsion to keep the commandments is a result of our love for Jesus.

So which is it?

The word-for-word (verbatim) translation of John 14:15 is:

If ye love Me, ye will observe the My the commandments.

Since the "If" (Supposing) is in the Subjunctive mood, it is definitely of the future, so this verse can be rendered as:

If ye [will] love Me, ye will observe the My the commandments.

ye...ye -- Yehshua's disciples (plural)

[will]... will -- Why not presently now, there and then, in that moment?
A1) The answer is in verses 20 and 22.
A2) Yehshua's personal commandments (of what works to do) to His disciples (and yourself individually?) were not [individually/spiritually] announced/given yet. The answer is in verse 26.
A3) None of His disciples were able/capable to love Him (there and then?). It is crystal clear in the original Greek Scripture/Gospel that even Simon Peter could not love the Lord Yehshua (John 21:15-17).

The word-for-word (verbatim) translation of John 14:15 is:

If ye love Me, ye will observe the My the commandments.

Since the "If" (Supposing) is in the Subjunctive mood, it is definitely of the future, so this verse can be rendered as:

If ye [will] love Me, ye will observe the My the commandments.

ye...ye -- Yehshua's disciples (plural)

[will]... will -- Why not presently now, there and then, on that moment?
A1) The answer is in verses 20 and 22.
A2) Yehshua's personal commandments (of what works to do) to His disciples (and yourself individually?) were not [individually/spiritually] announced/given yet. The answer is in verse 26.
A3) None of His disciples were able to love Him (there and then?). It is crystal clear in the original Greek Scripture/Gospel that even Simon Peter could not love the Lord Yehshua (John 21:15-17).

If ye [will] love Me, ye will observe the My the commandments.

the My the commandments -- Why didn't Yehshua say, "the commandments of Me"?
the My the commandments -- Why the double definite articles?
the My the commandments -- Why all in the Accusative cases?

It is often/commonly misunderstood as:
1) Either the 2 "Love God first and love your neighbour as yourself" commandments,
2) Or The 10 Commandments (of the true YHVH God)

In the "OT" Hebrew text, there is no such thing as The 10 Commandments. There are a total of [some] 613 commandments/statutes in the law, and those headers mentioned in Exodus 20:1-17 were The 10 Matters (dabar).

I meant the translation is better for this specific verse. I still prefer the NIV (84) in general.

What are other verses do you think/guess ESV is better, and which are some verses you think/guess NIV is better? How do you determine that you are not reading ANOTHER Gospel?

[SIZE=16pt]All the time spent trying to understand the correct meaning of the written Word of God?[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]Does that make anyone a better person? Meaning a person who walks as Jesus walked?[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]The only way one can come to know God, and live the Commandments of God is to allow the Holy Spirit/Jesus teach him or her the true understanding of the written Word, of what Jesus taught. [/SIZE]

You and your kind always remind me of the term, "Children of a lesser God."

What is αἰώνιον (adjective) - aionios (say, XXX [life])? Yehshua taught:

John 17:3 (My rough cut)
“BUT (However,) this is the αἰώνιον life: in order that they may experientially know You, the only true God, and Anointed Yehshua whom You sent (verb apostello -- as an Apostle or on an Apostolic mission ).”

It's all about having an experiential knowledge and relationship with the One and Only true Father YHVH God AND our lord Christ Yehshua here and now (and then after, Johnlove, Duh! )


ἀπόληται (aorist Subjunctive verb) - would/should/might [be] lost (should not [be] destroyed)

It is interesting to note that there is no exact English equivalent for this Greek verb: to cause [something] to be lost/destroyed, and the reason why it behooved me to change it practically into the passive voice.

John 17:3 (My rough cut)

“BUT (However,) this is the αἰώνιον life: in order that they may experientially know You, the only true God, and Anointed Yehshua whom You sent (verb apostello -- as an Apostle or on an Apostolic mission ).”

In all your English translations, none of you will be able to read and study to learn that our Lord/Messiah/Anointed/Prophet Yehshua (the last Adam -- the Seed of the female Adam, Eve) was also sent (verb apostello, not pempo) here in the flesh as an Apostle (like Apostle Paul was), right?

And Yehshua addressed the Father YHVH God as the *only **true God.

*only (adjective monos; mono/alone)
**true (adjective alethes; verifiable/real)

So then,

1) Was Yehshua lying, or was He mistaken?
A) 100% No.

2) Is there another verse in the Holy Bible that might contradict Yehshua's words?
A) 100% No, unless Yehshua was lying.

3) Is there any other true God beside the YHVH Father God?
A) 100% No, unless Yehshua was lying.

4) Is Yehshua a/another true God [beside the YHVH Father God]?
A) 100% No, unless Yehshua was lying.

5) Is [the] holy spirit a/another true God [beside the YHVH Father God]?
A) 100% No, unless Yehshua was lying.

6) Is Mary a/another true God [beside the YHVH Father God]?
A) 100% No, unless Yehshua was lying.


Yehshua, the Son of God (inwardly/spiritually) aka the son of human/Adam (outwardly in the flesh) did not lie! What about your Pastor/Priest and yourself?