Just the "FACTS"!

[Eccl.12:13]

Did Paul keep the Law? YES!

Rom.7
[7] What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

Did Paul tell others to keep the law? Yes!

1 Cor.5
[9] I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:
[10] Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world.
[11] But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.

1 Cor.6
[9] Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
[10] Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
[11] And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
[18] Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that commiteth fornication sinneth against his own body.

Eph.4
[25] Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another.
[26] Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath:
[27] Neither give place to the devil.

Eph.5
[3] But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;
[4] Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.
[5] For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
[6] Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.
[7] Be not ye therefore partakers with them.

Eph.6
[1] Children, obey your parents in the Lord: for this is right.
[2] Honour thy father and mother; (which is the first commandment with promise
[3] That it may be well with thee, and thou mayest live long on the earth.

Col.3
[5] Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:
[6] For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:
[7] In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them.
[8] But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth.
[9] Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;

And finally....where did Paul receive the knowledge that all of the above was sin? From the OT!

Acts 24
[10] Then Paul, after that the governor had beckoned unto him to speak, answered, Forasmuch as I know that thou hast been of many years a judge unto this nation, I do the more cheerfully answer for myself:
[14] But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:

Plain and simple. Paul kept God's laws! Paul taught others to keep God's laws! Paul belives EVERYTHING written in the law and by the prophets.


Knowing this.....let's read something Paul MUST believe because he said so. Let's read of a FUTURE event that Paul said he believes.

Zech.14
[16] And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
[17] And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.

Now let's read one of the requirements for worshiping the Lord during His reign.

Ezek.44
[9] Thus saith the Lord GOD; No stranger, uncircumcised in heart, nor uncircumcised in flesh, shall enter into my sanctuary, of any stranger that is among the children of Israel.

Now the Lord said, "...all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts,...", and

He also said, "...No stranger, uncircumcised in heart, nor uncircumcised in flesh, shall enter into my sanctuary..."

Now...if all are to worship, BUT no one that is uncircumcised can enter in to worship Him, what does that mean?

ALL that come to worship the Lord MUST be circumcised!

Just the "FACTS" from the word of God!



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[Comm.Arnold]

Whats a railer ?

 

[martinlawrencescott]

It's like I'm listening to a scratched and skipping record.

The moment Christ came to dwell in my heart, my foreskin didn't magically disappear that moment. In fact I was circumcised soon after birth and up until the point Christ came to live in me I was a circumcised corpse. I don't know if you understand just who couldn't enter to worship in the temple under the old law. Both those with sins unwashed by the blood of sacrifice couldn't, as well as those naturally born with the physical defects sin can cause were not allowed. God does not allow/didn't allow sin or the effects of sin into His presence.

However, that isn't to say Christ can't or hasn't entered into the presence of sin. That is actually the only answer, because there are none righteous to enter His presence. But God made a way by ministering His presence into our state of death and sinfulness.

You and I will never be worthy enough or righteous enough by any law or standard to enter into the presence of God. And it is true that dead men have no rights. Christ's call is to let His presence dwell inside us, so that we may join the ranks of the living.

 

[martinlawrencescott]

-Edit

Is there a way to delete my own posts when I accidently post?

 

[Joshua David]

Just as you asked, lets stick to the facts. One of your questions was did Paul keep the law? The answer is no. How do we know this? Well I can prove this as FACT, by presenting two points. One, we know from James that to keep the law you must keep it perfectly, because to break a single part of the law means that you have failed to keep the law.
[bible='James 2:10']10For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.[/bible]


My second point is that Paul failed to keep the entire law. How do we know this? Because he tells us.

[bible='Rom 7:14-20']14 We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18 For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature.[c] For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.[/bible]


Now maybe you didn't really mean did Paul keep the law, maybe you meant did Paul believe that you had to keep the law for Salvation. Well that is a totally different question, and the answer is.....wait for it.....still No.

Paul taught that we were no longer bound to the law, but that we were freed from the law.

[bible='Rom 7:4-6']4 So, my brothers and sisters, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God. 5 For when we were in the realm of the flesh, the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in us, so that we bore fruit for death. 6 But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.[/bible]
Now there is a huge difference in not wanting to lie, or not wanting to commit fornication, and feeling like you have to fulfill all the requirements of the law for your Salvation. Just because we have been freed from the law does not mean that we can go out and rape and murder people. What it means is that you have place your trust for your Salvation in the right thing. Are you trusting your Salvation on how well you keep the law, or are you trusting in the shed blood of our Savior? If you feel that we must keep the law, then you are putting your trust in the wrong place. You are denying the Santification work of Christ's ultimate sacrifice on the cross, and basically telling God, "Hey I know that you sent your son to die for my sins and all, but all that was unnecessary because I got this."

And if you believe that you must keep the law in order to be saved then you have failed to learn the one lesson that the Law was suppose to teach us, which was that No one but God can keep the Law. That we are all sinners. That we all need a Savior. And that only by accepting God's sacrifice for our sins, can we be made acceptable to God.

Those are just the FACTS.

Joshua David

 

[Eccl.12:13]

Let's read what James said and let's see if at ANY point James said the following, "...that to keep the law you must keep it perfectly...";


So just what did the apostle James really mean when he said the following;

"For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all." James 2:10?

Let's look at the REST of what James wrote to get a better understanding.



[8] If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:

Wait a minute....isn't, "Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself..." a law? So the very first thing James tells us to do is to KEEP A LAW! Knowing that NO ONE is perfect, why would James start off by telling us to keep a law? If he thinks that by breaking just one law you break them all, why would he start off by telling us to keep a law? Does that make sense? No it does not! Let's continue;

[9] But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.


Now James tells us, although you may love your neighbor, if you still have respect to persons, you have still committed a sin. So although you keep the one law of, loving your neighbor, if you break ANY OTHER LAWS, you are still a sinner. So it does not matter WHAT law you break, if you break ANY law it is AS IF you have broken them all. James goes on to explain this in the following verse;

[10] For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

Now let's read the next verse to see how James explains this;

[11] For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.

First off notice what commandments James is referring to, but more importantly, WHO it was that gave the commandments. The "he" here is none other than Jesus, and James explains to us if a person does not commit adultery, but yet kills, he is a sinner. Right here James acknowleges the fact that a person may not break the law of adultery, but if that same person that does not commit adultry kills, he is STILL a sinner; one that breaks God's laws. The same would hold true for the following;


If a person goes their entire life without killing or stealing, but they are constantly bearing false witness against their neighbor, it would be no difference than if they had spent their entire life killing or stealing. Though they kept SOME of God's laws, yet broke just one, it would be AS THOUGH they broke any of the others, NOT that they broke them all!

What James is saying here is that there are no small sins nor big sins. There is no such thing as a little "white lie"! A LIE IS A LIE!! And as far as God is concerned A SIN IS A SIN! Let's read the above verse again;

[10] For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

So is James saying you are literally braking ALL of Gods laws if you break just one? No he is not! James is saying just what he explained in the verses that followed verse 10 above; A SIN IS A SIN!!!

Now at what point did James say, "...that to keep the law you must keep it perfectly..."?

Now...is it possible to keep God's laws perfectly? Of course not...God has already told us, "...all have sinned...". But does that mean we are not to try?

Now let's read AGAIN what Paul did when he read God's laws.....

Rom.7
[7] What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

Now....do ya think that was the ONLY law Paul read in the OT? Do you not think when he read the rest he tried his best not to break those also?

Of course he did.

I said NOTHING about slavation in this lesson. I stated (3) facts only:

1. Paul kept God's laws!
"What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet."

2. Paul told others to keep God laws!
"Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that commiteth fornication sinneth against his own body."

3. Paul believed everything written in the law and the prophets!
"But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:"

Now.....if anyone has a problem with these facts you do not have a problem with me, you have a problem with the Holy Spirit....that's the guy who guided Paul. And guess what? You do NOT want to go against what this guy has said. Because he is ONLY saying what was given to him by Jesus, and Jesus is ONLY saying what was given to him by the Father. And Jesus said the following...

"And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but unto him that blasphemeth against the Holy Ghost it shall not be forgiven."

Tread wisely....



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[Eccl.12:13]

That we are all sinners.

Are we really? Well guess what God says sin is?

"Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law."

So.....whose laws are we, sinners, transgressing? God's Laws!

So something didn't quite make it to His cross!

But that is not the direction of this lesson. It's not about what was or was not nailed to His cross. It's not about salvation. It's not about grace, works or deeds.

This lesson is about (3) facts only:

1. Paul kept God's laws!
"What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet."

2. Paul told others to keep God laws!
"Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that commiteth fornication sinneth against his own body."

3. Paul believed everything written in the law and the prophets!
"But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:"

Just the "FACTS"!

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[Eccl.12:13]

You and I will never be worthy enough or righteous enough by any law or standard to enter into the presence of God.

At what point did I mention anything about being worthy? I only said the following;

1. Paul kept God's laws!
"What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet."

2. Paul told others to keep God laws!
"Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that commiteth fornication sinneth against his own body."

3. Paul believed everything written in the law and the prophets!
"But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:"

That's it. No salvation, grace or worthyness. Simple.

Is the above not true?


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[martinlawrencescott]

If all you are saying is that when after Christ comes into our lives, we are by no means permitted or free to keep sinning, then I agree with you. Sin is asking for chains no matter at what point in our lives, and what good is it to get bound up again in what Christ has already freed us from?

There is always a cause and effect principle that we can't escape.

[sup]Galatians 6:7[/sup] Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. [sup]8[/sup] Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. [sup]9[/sup] Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up. [sup]10[/sup] Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, especially to those who belong to the family of believers.

[sup]Galatians 5:14[/sup] For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”[sup][a][/sup]


At this point though, love thy neighbor as thy self is our highest calling.

I guess what you're proposing then is that even though circumcision etc. isn't necessary for our faith, grace, redemption, right standing with God, salvation, etc. that the law that was necessary to lead us to a place of dependency on Christ should still be obeyed on a level of conscience and love, and that not being circumcised and not following the guidelines of the other such laws that were meant to lead us to Christ, even though it is after Christ's presence already lives in us, is not loving the Lord your God with all your heart, mind, soul, and strength and loving your neighbor as yourself.

That keeping the law would then be a matter of maintaining fellowship with Christ and loving our brothers, and that that wouldn't be any less important before or after salvation?

Is that the point you're trying to make?

 

[Eccl.12:13]

If all you are saying is that when after Christ comes into our lives, we are by no means permitted or free to keep sinning,

Correct. We are not free to keep sinning. Now since you used the word 'sinning' you do understand that to sin is to break a law of God correct?

That keeping the law would then be a matter of maintaining fellowship with Christ

I agree with this also.

 

[Episkopos]

Whats a railer ?

As in "ranting and railing". Speaking harshly against someone or something from anger!

 

[martinlawrencescott]

Can you explain how you define God's laws in general (or scripture to explain), and then also a covenant? I guess getting into what laws you think should be observed in order to maintain proper fellowship with God.

 

[Eccl.12:13]

Can you explain how you define God's laws in general (or scripture to explain), and then also a covenant? I guess getting into what laws you think should be observed in order to maintain proper fellowship with God.

God's laws are laws the moments He says, "Thou shall", or "Thou shall not"! And to be honest, it does not have to be that formal. When God said, "Go over here.", and His servants did not, His commandment had been broken. Just look at what happened to Jonah when he disobeyed the commandment of God. People seem to think of laws as something that must be written down, but for God ALL verbal contracts are binding.

We know this because we know that Adam sinned. Nothing was written down. God just told Adam do not eat and Adam ate; he broke God's command, thus the first man Adam sinned. This is not my interpretation. I'm only going with what I read in God's word.

Gen. 2
[15] And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.
[16] And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
[17] But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

So God commanded Adam NOT to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. It was a law the moment God spoke the commandment to Adam. So did Adam break God’s Law? Did Adam sin?

Gen. 3
[17] And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;

Unfortunately for us, Yes, Adam did sin. Now let’s confirm…

Rom.5

[14] Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

Even though we find no place where God’s laws were written down, the scriptures still says that Adam sinned.


A contract is an agreement between (2) or more parties. Either side can break the contract, unless, of course, your agreement is with God. Only we can break it.

God made a agreement with the nation of Israel that consisted of laws.

Now....were the LAWS the contract? Or were the laws something contained in the contract?

Now who broke what? WHO BROKE WHAT?????

"For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:"

WHO is the "them" that God found fault with? The "laws" or the "...house of Israel and with the house of Judah..."?

WHO is the ONLY one that could break the contract/agreement with God? We know it was NOT God's "laws"; laws can't break contracts, ONLY PEOPLE can break contracts.




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