Legal Marriage Conflict with Biblical Marriage

[JeffAlan66]

All,

Before I make my problem statement, I preface by saying that my aim is NOT to provoke anything but a meaningful dialog toward answers that I really need right now.

My problem statements are actually rooted in a strong impressions that I'm left with in the wake of a substantial (and unique) amount of experience with marriage, divorce, and "the system" that has been put in place by man / government to preside over anything dealing with marriage, divorce, and even the related areas of child custody, support, etc. When referring to "the system" ... it will all be related, whether directly or indirectly, to what we call "Family Law".

OK, here is my core problem statement ...

The effective terms and conditions of legal marriage (by man's law) are no longer compatible with those established by God's Biblical design for marriage.

While there are various areas to cover in support of this statement, one in particular that I would like to explore with you has to do with abuse. Therefore, I will continue by making this additional statement ...

Legal marriage can be a trap for abuse, from which there is no escape (short of a miracle) for the spouse-victim without unjust and signfiant loss in all areas.

We often default to thinking of marital abuse applying solely to the woman as being the victim. However, this statement applies more to a scenario where you have a Borderline Personality for a woman who is enabled by "the system". If you are not familiar with "Borderline Personality", then you would need to study it somewhat before you understanding this scenario. My brief description is that it is a person who might effectively say "I hate you, please don't leave me, no matter what I say or do, but if you do ... I will skillfully put on my victim's face and destroy you at any cost by making you out to be the bad guy."

I am long in the wake of a positive outcome to my situation. The positive outcome was frankly a miracle, not by act of attorneys, whether civil or criminal. Even such attorneys had to agree in my case. In good conscience, I wanted to follow by challenging "the system" as-is, on the basis that only a miracle would deliver someone like me (and my child) from such a bad situation. When I first entered into my situation, I asked several civil attorneys the same question ... "What can be done? She is mentally ill. This is not a battle between me and her. This is a battle within herself, although she would say otherwise in her denial." The answer always came back the same ... "Something bad has to happen, first, post-divorce, before anything can be done, and it still won't likely address the issue sufficiently." I have found what they said to be true. Do you recall the case several years ago where the woman in Florida drowned her 5 kids in the bathtub and everyone wondered why nobody saw it coming or did anything? This example came up in response to my question. This is how far "the system" will let things go, gambling that nobody will get TOO hurt in order for "the system" to have its justification to intervene in a manner that is beyond "no-fault".

In the end, as a thinking Christian who does as much as possible to live life as God commands, I am compelled to NEVER again marry legally. I am not bitter. However, I now see "the system" that governs marriage and divorce as corrupt in God's eyes. I am NOT compelled to avoid marriage under God, though, which means going before a minister WITHOUT taking the legal steps to marry at that level. Of course this also means I wave legal benefits of marriage, such as tax or other benefit related. So be it. Again, I say "the system" is corrupt in God's eyes. It does not know what marriage is anymore. It does not even recognize infidelity as something illegal, even though it is a physical violation when you share others with your partner without their knowledge or consent (sounds a little like rape, doesn't it?). Again, it isn't illegal to "the system", but it is to God.

It troubles me, though. If a young person, such as a son or daughter, asked if they should marry ... this would be my answer based on experience. Someone might challenge that the right choices will lead to a better outcome and avoid these scenarios. However, I'm not a fool. This type of person flew under a lot of radar before getting this far with me. You think it wouldn't happen to you. It can, so do not make a dangerous assumption. It is so hard to believe, probably, that many would possibly find all sort of ways to dismiss my claims. I encourage you to move past this type of denial and help me sort through this in a way that is helpful. I feel God saw the truth in this, which is why me and my child were delivered. However, I know that most aren't as lucky, because of "the system" and how it operates as designed by judges and attorneys.

As Christians, can we explore these issues together here?

JA

 

[THE Gypsy]

JA, sounds like you've really been through a lot of heartache.

May I ask...Were you and your ex Christians when you decided to marry? Did you both seek God's wisdom and discernment before making the decision to marry? Did you wait on an answer? Did you heed His advice/direction? How long did you date before getting married? Were you aware the woman involved had BPD?

 

[tim_from_pa]

I'm 52 years old, and to this day I cannot for the life of me understand how the Lord allows some of his "so-called" children through the marital hell they been thru. I can understand why "the system" is corrupt, being governed by carnal men. From my perspective, I just look at the system's declaration of my marriage to my wife for legal purposes, but the actual vows were before the congregation and God. That's what I consider the real marriage.

Notice I placed "so-called" children of God in quotes, because I would suspect that true children would be delivered, as you were, not that's it's any less of a heartache, but nothing like this would destroy a child of God regardless of what "the system" throws at you. Gypsy brings up a good point. Was prayer and seeking the Lord's will involved in the start? I think one way to get the train rolling is to make sure it's not derailed to begin with. However, I suspect many of those (quoted) Christians did not seek the Lord but rather thick-headedly went into the union without regard for family and friend's input, or blatant evidence to the contrary. Sometimes people can see trouble where two who are "in love" have blinders on and only care about their perspectives and feelings. I almost had that happen to me, but thank God he delivered me from that.


Again, I'm not sure why so many Christians are not delivered as you and I were, but that's why I brought up Gypsy's point. I'm not so sure people became a victim as much as somehow it's part of their own doing. If it's the latter, I would not expect God to be helping, a least not to the degree they want since they did not seek the Lord or listen to Him from the start. It's all sad nonetheless. I see divorce horror stories and other marital troubles on these types of forums all the time and you wonder where their heads were at.

 

[JeffAlan66]

JA, sounds like you've really been through a lot of heartache.

May I ask...Were you and your ex Christians when you decided to marry? Did you both seek God's wisdom and discernment before making the decision to marry? Did you wait on an answer? Did you heed His advice/direction? How long did you date before getting married? Were you aware the woman involved had BPD?

Gypsy,

If you have to ask, then I guess I will answer. We were both Christians at marriage, at least I know I was. She fairly walked the walk and talked the talk. We both even submitted ourselves to accountability with Church leadership before going further. We dated 2 years before marriage. There was no diagnosis of a disorder at marriage. It isn't until you are IN close IN marriage, UP CLOSE, and the trigger of a disagreement (nothing major) before the issue starts to make itself known. By then, it had been a year with a child involved. 14 years later, I was still hanging in there, enduring, trying everything, even dealing with 3 infidelities on her part, etc. In this situation, I stayed in there for two reasons ... 1. Because I honestly felt it was best to get help for her and save the marriage than otherwise. 2. It was understood that coming apart would mean she would go to any length of deceipt to destroy me ... even at the expense of the child's best interests. "The system" enabled #2 by responding to domestic calls with bias, instead of identifying the opportunity to see and hear what was really going on and facilitate help. "The system" also enabled #2 in Family Law with the "no-fault" rule AND the bias attitude that mom's are the appropriate parent to have physical custody of the children. With both law enforcement and family court carrying on in this bias manner, an abusive woman with borderline personality disorder can play the victim and maintain control of at least the child.

I hoped this discussion would not need to go further by looking much further into my specific situation for the purpose of justifying my experience and outcome. The existance of my child, alone, justifies the marriage in the first place. If you knew my child and the special grace surrounding, you would recognize that there was a certain purpose in that birth.

Without even looking at my situation, I made one point alone in my first message that draws attention to my statement that legal marriage is NOT compatible with God's design. That point was that legal marriage has NO issue with infidelity. It is not considered illegal. It isn't even considered breach of contract, subjecting the person who breached the contract to something less than what "no-fault" provides. In my opinion, a person who commits infidelity should be at the mercy of "the victim" in terms of marital estate and child custody. I'm going to be careful and not claim to have exact scripture to back up my sense that God would agree with this. However, I would task someone who is a hard study in this area to share something here to either back this up OR cast it down as false.

JA

 

[JeffAlan66]

I'm 52 years old, and to this day I cannot for the life of me understand how the Lord allows some of his "so-called" children through the marital hell they been thru. I can understand why "the system" is corrupt, being governed by carnal men. From my perspective, I just look at the system's declaration of my marriage to my wife for legal purposes, but the actual vows were before the congregation and God. That's what I consider the real marriage.

Notice I placed "so-called" children of God in quotes, because I would suspect that true children would be delivered, as you were, not that's it's any less of a heartache, but nothing like this would destroy a child of God regardless of what "the system" throws at you. Gypsy brings up a good point. Was prayer and seeking the Lord's will involved in the start? I think one way to get the train rolling is to make sure it's not derailed to begin with. However, I suspect many of those (quoted) Christians did not seek the Lord but rather thick-headedly went into the union without regard for family and friend's input, or blatant evidence to the contrary. Sometimes people can see trouble where two who are "in love" have blinders on and only care about their perspectives and feelings. I almost had that happen to me, but thank God he delivered me from that.


Again, I'm not sure why so many Christians are not delivered as you and I were, but that's why I brought up Gypsy's point. I'm not so sure people became a victim as much as somehow it's part of their own doing. If it's the latter, I would not expect God to be helping, a least not to the degree they want since they did not seek the Lord or listen to Him from the start. It's all sad nonetheless. I see divorce horror stories and other marital troubles on these types of forums all the time and you wonder where their heads were at.

Tim,

I hear what you are saying, and I agree that many go into things without much thought and suffer consequences.

I happen to be someone who is their own worst enemy. I can be perfectly right about something, and I still manage to find some way to check myself. I struggled for a long time, beating myself up, wondering if I did something wrong from the start. Then it hit me right between my eyes as I watched my child grow in Christ in a very special way. It was clear to me that the marriage wasn't the mistake. My living child proves this to me. The marriage was an opportunity for at least my ex-spouse. While there was mental illness, I will say that I know part of the failure was choice of denial and refusal to get treatment. There was at least that much of her that must take responsibility for the denial and lost opportunity. However, "the system" was given an opportunity so many times over. Yet, because of the male bias that I can prove plays so much of a role, so many opportunities were lost to impose help for the mom. Like the attorneys said ... "Something bad has to happen before anything can be done, and we only hope that nobody gets too hurt." How sad. For example, if I had been the woman when law enforcement showed up a few times for domestic calls, I'm certain the opportunity would have been taken more seriously. When they showed up one time, I begged them to hear my version of things and that I needed for them to intervene in a manner that results in the family getting help and her with her mental illness. They wouldn't even let me speak, more than a few times. This is wrong, and yet my focus can fast forward to later experiences in both civil and criminal court where the same bias played out. As I sad, though, God intervened and trumped it. I understand what you are saying, that people who are with God will be protected from a corrupt system. But let's say you have a parent who is NOT Godly, yet their loss will subject the child to risk. "The system" should not fail to identify opportunities to protect children from such madness because of bias, and it should not have to succeed only by God's grace. The reality is that "the system" does fail in this area, because of bias, and children are being left in bad situations. I have heard my own share of horror stories from people I know and can vouch for. "The system" is NOT failing simply because of ungodly parents or their poor choices from the start. It is failing because we as a society have allowed it to continue to develop into this corrupt monster that serves little else than the pockets of the attorneys and judges that drive it. My aim here is talk about anything that would fall under that heading.

As a side note, I brought 18 observations to my state senator last week. He met with me for an hour and a half to hear and discuss these observations of mine about the family and criminal court. He was quite intrigued by the time it was over, as I had not purpose for being there other than for a greater good of seeking change for others who might come after and not do as well without divine intervention. Depending on how this dialog goes, I might introduce some of those points here. My hopes are that this state senator will start to consider new legislation that can act as safeguards against the corruption that I identified with clear documentation.

JA

 

[tim_from_pa]

Tim,

I hear what you are saying, and I agree that many go into things without much thought and suffer consequences.

I happen to be someone who is their own worst enemy. I can be perfectly right about something, and I still manage to find some way to check myself. I struggled for a long time, beating myself up, wondering if I did something wrong from the start. Then it hit me right between my eyes as I watched my child grow in Christ in a very special way. It was clear to me that the marriage wasn't the mistake. My living child proves this to me. The marriage was an opportunity for at least my ex-spouse. While there was mental illness, I will say that I know part of the failure was choice of denial and refusal to get treatment. There was at least that much of her that must take responsibility for the denial and lost opportunity. However, "the system" was given an opportunity so many times over. Yet, because of the male bias that I can prove plays so much of a role, so many opportunities were lost to impose help for the mom. Like the attorneys said ... "Something bad has to happen before anything can be done, and we only hope that nobody gets too hurt." How sad. For example, if I had been the woman when law enforcement showed up a few times for domestic calls, I'm certain the opportunity would have been taken more seriously. When they showed up one time, I begged them to hear my version of things and that I needed for them to intervene in a manner that results in the family getting help and her with her mental illness. They wouldn't even let me speak, more than a few times. This is wrong, and yet my focus can fast forward to later experiences in both civil and criminal court where the same bias played out. As I sad, though, God intervened and trumped it. I understand what you are saying, that people who are with God will be protected from a corrupt system. But let's say you have a parent who is NOT Godly, yet their loss will subject the child to risk. "The system" should not fail to identify opportunities to protect children from such madness because of bias, and it should not have to succeed only by God's grace. The reality is that "the system" does fail in this area, because of bias, and children are being left in bad situations. I have heard my own share of horror stories from people I know and can vouch for. "The system" is NOT failing simply because of ungodly parents or their poor choices from the start. It is failing because we as a society have allowed it to continue to develop into this corrupt monster that serves little else than the pockets of the attorneys and judges that drive it. My aim here is talk about anything that would fall under that heading.

As a side note, I brought 18 observations to my state senator last week. He met with me for an hour and a half to hear and discuss these observations of mine about the family and criminal court. He was quite intrigued by the time it was over, as I had not purpose for being there other than for a greater good of seeking change for others who might come after and not do as well without divine intervention. Depending on how this dialog goes, I might introduce some of those points here. My hopes are that this state senator will start to consider new legislation that can act as safeguards against the corruption that I identified with clear documentation.

JA

I wish you good fortune and Godspeed regarding your senator working on that corruption you documented. Perhaps that's what the whole thing was about --- to bring on change in a crooked system that maybe God had enough seeing people like you suffer for that reason. You may have been chosen for that very reason to bring improvement.

 

[THE Gypsy]

Gypsy,

If you have to ask, then I guess I will answer. We were both Christians at marriage, at least I know I was. She fairly walked the walk and talked the talk. We both even submitted ourselves to accountability with Church leadership before going further. We dated 2 years before marriage. There was no diagnosis of a disorder at marriage. It isn't until you are IN close IN marriage, UP CLOSE, and the trigger of a disagreement (nothing major) before the issue starts to make itself known. By then, it had been a year with a child involved. 14 years later, I was still hanging in there, enduring, trying everything, even dealing with 3 infidelities on her part, etc. In this situation, I stayed in there for two reasons ... 1. Because I honestly felt it was best to get help for her and save the marriage than otherwise. 2. It was understood that coming apart would mean she would go to any length of deceipt to destroy me ... even at the expense of the child's best interests. "The system" enabled #2 by responding to domestic calls with bias, instead of identifying the opportunity to see and hear what was really going on and facilitate help. "The system" also enabled #2 in Family Law with the "no-fault" rule AND the bias attitude that mom's are the appropriate parent to have physical custody of the children. With both law enforcement and family court carrying on in this bias manner, an abusive woman with borderline personality disorder can play the victim and maintain control of at least the child.

I hoped this discussion would not need to go further by looking much further into my specific situation for the purpose of justifying my experience and outcome. The existance of my child, alone, justifies the marriage in the first place. If you knew my child and the special grace surrounding, you would recognize that there was a certain purpose in that birth.

Without even looking at my situation, I made one point alone in my first message that draws attention to my statement that legal marriage is NOT compatible with God's design. That point was that legal marriage has NO issue with infidelity. It is not considered illegal. It isn't even considered breach of contract, subjecting the person who breached the contract to something less than what "no-fault" provides. In my opinion, a person who commits infidelity should be at the mercy of "the victim" in terms of marital estate and child custody. I'm going to be careful and not claim to have exact scripture to back up my sense that God would agree with this. However, I would task someone who is a hard study in this area to share something here to either back this up OR cast it down as false.

JA

Of course I "had to ask". You laid out quite a bit of detail, asked for it to be "discussed", however, left out the foundation. That could indeed change the meaning/value of any "discussion". And, since that is what you requested, yes, it was necessary to be "looking much further into [your] specific situation". This may be a Christian forum, but it's still an anonymous forum on the internet and no one knows you or the situation you're in.

Having said that...In the OP you also left out the fact that your ex-wife had affairs. THAT is also a big issue, and as you probably know, grounds for divorce in the eyes of God. This is where I'm puzzled...It is also grounds for divorce in our "system", so it is confusing when you say it isn't considered a "breach of contract".

I agree with Tim's last post when he said "Perhaps that's what the whole thing was about --- to bring on change in a crooked system that maybe God had enough seeing people like you suffer for that reason. You may have been chosen for that very reason to bring improvement." That seems to be a wise observation and while it is difficult for any of us to understand why God would allow His children to go through this, it is equally important for us, as humans, to make some sort of sense of it. .

Something additional I would like to add...It is very clear you have suffered greatly through these experiences. Your pain and disillusionment reaches out through the internet. If you have close, Christian friends whom you respect their wisdom and counsel...Stay close with them. It is way too easy for bitterness and resentment to build in a persons heart when they have been through this type of upheaval and they can assist you in getting to the other side of it.

In Him,

Gypsy

 

[JeffAlan66]

Gypsy,

Sorry to have been hesitant to go into the detail on my situation. I suppose for one that it is a bit painful. Secondly, I don't want too much emphasis on my specifics to distract from issues that that I feel are general and stand alone in terms of "the system".

I don't feel big enough to be the maker of change. However, in good conscience, I had to do something with it. It seemed like a rare opportunity compared to what most get out of it. For the sake of those who don't get that opportunity, I'm doing all that I can with this information. Again, I think it will take God to make more of it.

On the affair thing, in the state that I live in, an affair is not a basis for divorce or helpful in terms of negotation. "No-fault" rule applies no less in the case of an affair. This is not the only state by far that rules thsi way.

I hear and appreciate what you are saying about bitterness and staying close to friends. Staying close to God has kept me from bitterness. Just as importantly, staying close to God has kept my child from bitterness. In fact, if asked if there is anger toward the mom, my child will say sincerely "I'm not mad at her, I love her, but I just don't want to see her again until she learns how to stop being mean." If asked how those feelings came about, the answer my child will give is "Because I have joy in my heart and wisdom in my head. I have the grace of Jesus." Those aren't memorized words. Those words developed on their own.

I noticed that there havne't been any other responses to this post, where there have been many views. I'm hopeful that more interest will come from fellow Christians who would like to see marriage according to God back in our legal system.

JA

 

[tim_from_pa]

Gypsy,

Sorry to have been hesitant to go into the detail on my situation. I suppose for one that it is a bit painful. Secondly, I don't want too much emphasis on my specifics to distract from issues that that I feel are general and stand alone in terms of "the system".

I don't feel big enough to be the maker of change. However, in good conscience, I had to do something with it. It seemed like a rare opportunity compared to what most get out of it. For the sake of those who don't get that opportunity, I'm doing all that I can with this information. Again, I think it will take God to make more of it.

On the affair thing, in the state that I live in, an affair is not a basis for divorce or helpful in terms of negotation. "No-fault" rule applies no less in the case of an affair. This is not the only state by far that rules thsi way.

I hear and appreciate what you are saying about bitterness and staying close to friends. Staying close to God has kept me from bitterness. Just as importantly, staying close to God has kept my child from bitterness. In fact, if asked if there is anger toward the mom, my child will say sincerely "I'm not mad at her, I love her, but I just don't want to see her again until she learns how to stop being mean." If asked how those feelings came about, the answer my child will give is "Because I have joy in my heart and wisdom in my head. I have the grace of Jesus." Those aren't memorized words. Those words developed on their own.

I noticed that there havne't been any other responses to this post, where there have been many views. I'm hopeful that more interest will come from fellow Christians who would like to see marriage according to God back in our legal system.

JA

In all this, I sense that you are trying to make sense out of everything and are thus in a quandary. Nevertheless, you testified that the Lord delivered you from it, so keep the faith. At this point, I think the thing that keeps you perusing this matter is you have this need to understand everything. Nothing wrong with that, but if I may sound a little cliche, just "sleep on it" and the matter may resolve itself.

 

[gregg]

jeff what makes a marriage in Gods eyes has no paper work to back it up.the paper work is for the system and the religous ones.if a drunk met a hooker and went to vegas and married does God see this or just the system. you have endured much and not your fault for sure.but don't let bitterness take over,keep the faith.