Lets look closely to be free.

[Kidron]

What i run into a lot are Christians who are trying to keep the law to be saved.
That is to say, they do not have the revelation that Only Christ can save and only the redemption that has been freely given to them is what keeps them saved.
These type Christians live under a burden of works, that is to say, keeping commandments and trying to live a holy life in an effort of the flesh to maintain their Salvation.

Now you say......."but if they dont understand that they cant save themselves, yet are trying to save themselves by confessing sins and working hard to avoid sinning, then how can they be saved"
"How can anyone be saved who is trying to keep themselves > by their lifestyle< from being lost".
Thats a good question.
The fact is, Paul wrote the letter to the Galatians to try to deal with these types of believers who began with faith but then turned to a daily works based effort system to try to keep themselves "right with God".
Catholics are an example of a large religious group who through penance and works and confession and man made doctrine try to save themselves and keep themselves saved.
They are not the only one...
And how do you recognize one of these legalistic types??
Well, first of all, they believe you can lose your salvation or they believe that no one can know for certain they are saved.
Thats the penultimate clue and characteristic of this mindset type..
Another way to recognize them is, they will talk endlessly about the need to "confess sins to God for forgiveness", which of course is not the reason we confess anything to God once we are born again.
We are never to confess "sin" to God, for the purpose of being forgiven again, as Christ died only once, we are forgiven and saved only once and we are born again only once.
So, as all our sins have been washed away once and forever in the eternal blood of God we then have no reason to seek for "forgivness" again and again.............and again...................and again.
We are already forgiven, justified, redeemed, sanctified, and adopted....1st Corinthians 1:30
You cant increase or maintain this by your 'holy" lifestyle and you cant lose it by your lifestyle, as its not yours, its God's and he provided it to you as a free gift..
Now get that.
So, the reason we tell God we are sorry for our latest work of the flesh, is simply to keep the fellowship between him and us perfect.
WE are already forgiven, as Jesus on the cross accomplished that 2000+ years ago.

So, i want to give you a few scriptures now, and expound them a bit so that you have clarity and revelation regarding just how God has established you to be worthy of his Holy acceptance.
And you do realize that GOD established you to be worthy to be accepted by him, ...you dont do this with your "lifestyle".????????
This is supremely important for you to realize, so that you can get out from under trying to "keep yourself right with God", so that you are accepted by him.
Saint you are already eternally accepted by him, based on what Christ did for you.
Now get that^^^., and free yourself from the mindset, the circular reasoning, the terrible doctrine taught you, that has lead you to believe that if you are not good enough, if you dont "live it", and "do good deeds" and "confess every sin", and do your penance, then God will get rid of you.
Saint, he is not going to get rid of you based on your behavior,....He cant,...and the reason is....the Atonement that he has given you is not given to you so that you can try to keep it later by your behavior...
See, if that were the case, it would not be a free gift, and instead God would owe you for all your work.
Fortunately for you, thats not how the Atonement was given or operates in the life of the redeemed.
------
------
Now, i want to show you something that when you read it you might not grasp it to begin with,..... but if you will consider it then it will by contrast help you to realize what role you have to play in your redemption and your salvation.
Here it is...
>God did not save you when you were good.<
Now here it is again..
>God did not save you when you were good.<
He saved you when you were not good.
That is the spiritual position you were in when he saved you.
This is the spiritual condition that everyone is in when he saves them.
Now, i wanted to get you to think about that, so that these scriptures that Paul wrote that im about to show you will make sense.
So One more time, ....God did not save you when you were good.....he saved you when you were LOST, and not good.

Now here is our first scripture....

[font=lucida sans unicode']Romans 4:8......"But God commendeth his love towards us, .....(.WHEN?????) = in that while we were YET SINNERS, Christ died for us.[/font]
Now, [font=lucida sans unicode']did you get that?[/font]
Did you notice that God loved you, and Christ died for you, when you were BAD, LOST, "YET SINNERS".
While you were STILL a sinner.

here is the next...

Romans 4:9......"Much more then, being >NOW JUSTIFED< BY HIS BLOOD, we shall be saved from wrath through him".".
Now, did you notice that word "NOW"?.........do you know what that means?..........It means Its DONE, right NOW.
So, what is done?....Your Justification is what is done..........Your acceptance into God's family, is done.......and why?
Why?
Well, read the verse......It says that you were justified because you confess every sin?......because you do penance?.....because you live holy?.....
Is that what the verse says justifies you.????
NO,..., it says you are justified >right NOW< by the Blood of Christ.
So, when are you "justified"??? = Right NOW.

Now here is another..

[font=lucida sans unicode']Romans 5:10....."For If, when we were >ENEMIES<..(that is you and God)...WE WERE RECONCILED TO GOD BY THE DEATH OF HIS SON..., much more, BEING RECONCILED, we shall be saved by his life.[/font]

Now what did you just read?
You just read, that when you were the enemy of GOD, he reconciled you, he SAVED YOU, based on what????? = The death of his Son.
Now do you believe this?
Do you understand what you just read?
If you do, then do you think that your lifestyle or "christian walk" has any part in your reconciliation?
HEY, didnt you just read that God saved you when you were his enemy? and Justified you when you were a SINNER?
Ahhhhhhhh.
Hummmmmm.

So, [font=lucida sans unicode']now you have to deal with something.[/font]
[font=lucida sans unicode']You have to deal with the fact that Paul and the word of God just told you plainly that you were justified and reconciled to God when you were a sinner and an enemy of God.[/font]
[font=lucida sans unicode']So, where is your holy living and your good deeds in all that?[/font]
[font=lucida sans unicode']They are NO WHERE to be found as your salvation and your justification and your reconciliation have nothing to do with your BEHAVIOR... or your "works" or your "deeds" or your "church membership".[/font]

[font=lucida sans unicode']Now one more scripture...[/font]

Romans 5: 19......"For by one man's disobedience (Adam) many were made sinners, so by the Obedience of ONE (Jesus Christ) shall MANY be made
RIGHTEOUS."

Now, what did your bible, did Paul, just show you?
[font=lucida sans unicode']What?
He just explained to you that you are RIGHTEOUS, [/font]YES YOU, based on what Christ did for you.
now get that...!!
Paul just explained to you that you are RIGHTEOUS RIGHTEOUS RIGHTEOUS RIGHT NOW, based on what Jesus did for you.

So is Paul showing you?
We have learned that we were sinners when Christ died for us.........."sinners".
We have learned that we are JUSTIFIED RIGHT NOW based on the BLOOD OF CHRIST...
We have learned that we were enemies of God = WHEN HE RECONCILED YOU TO HIMSELF by his SON.
And we have learned that we are made RIGHTEOUS, not by our deeds, or our effort, or our works, but by CHRIST.

So what are you right now.....you are Justified, Reconciled, and Made Righteous.
That what you are, right now, and all of it is done FOR YOU, and that is why nothing you can do earned it, or can keep it.

Salvation, is when God takes a sinner who is his enemy and justifies them and reconciles them, and "makes them RIGHTEOUS" based on JESUS's Blood and death.
This is the "Atonement" and its the "free gift" that God gives and you never have to earn it, and you never have to keep it.
It was done for you when you were a sinner who was an ENEMY of God.
God took you, a sinner, an enemy, and made you RIGHTEOUS, and keeps you the Righteous by the same method...the shed Blood and the death of Jesus Christ.
This is the gift of God.....Romans 5:17 and this is what being SAVED means.

So, for those of you who are endlessly tying to keep yourself "right" before God by lifestyle, and confession, and penance, and worry,
...I hope you will be loosed from that theological and mental trap and receive the scriptures that show you that GOD is the keeper of your salvation and your righteousness.
And in this, may you find the Joy of the Lord, which is to realize that God has created for you the means and the method of being right with him that have nothing to do with your behavior, and in this, you can be free from the burden of trying to save yourself as you relax and recognize who is keeping you for all eternity.
This knowledge is the Joy, and there is nothing more deeply satisfying to realize that you have been given a redemption, an atonement, and eternal life, that you cant mess up,..........Because God did it ALL for you.......ITS FREE.
This is the GRACE and the love of God poured out for you on a cross.

And once you get this, once you get this revelation, then when you "present your bodies a living sacrifice", and you try to "be holy for God is holy"...when you earnestly try to stop all your sinning day by day......then you will be doing it for the reason that God wants you to do it.
Not to try to save yourself or to keep yourself saved, but instead because you ARE SAVED and you want to please the God who Saved you for FREE by the Blood of Jesus Christ.




be blessed,



K

 

[Episkopos]

The OP is tilting at windmills...or..strawmen!!

Paul was concerned for the Romans and Galatians because SOME the Jewish brethren were trying to get Christians who had begun in the Spirit to become Jews as they were and get circumcised in the flesh. These Jews could not fathom how God could make a son of Abraham to go uncircumcised according to their law.

The fact that this argumentation was prevailing is the subject of Galatians and Romans 4. These arguments are being twisted into a ploy to preach a false gospel of lawlessness.

 

[Kidron]

The OP is tilting at windmills...or..strawmen!!

Paul was concerned for the Romans and Galatians because SOME the Jewish brethren were trying to get Christians who had begun in the Spirit to become Jews as they were and get circumcised in the flesh. These Jews could not fathom how God could make a son of Abraham to go uncircumcised according to their law.

The fact that this argumentation was prevailing is the subject of Galatians and Romans 4. These arguments are being twisted into a ploy to preach a false gospel of lawlessness.

Wrong again, Episkopos.........and this one matters.

Let me help..
According to Galatians, Someone was preaching "ANOTHER GOSPEL", according to Paul........which tried to substitute the GRACE of God for a works based salvation....Galatians 1:6

Paul said this "other gospel" "PERVERTED" the Gospel of Christ, which is the Gospel of GRACE or the Free Gift of Righteousness....Romans 5:17 and Galatians 2:16

Paul said that anyone who would try to take a Believer, or a Church, and get them away from the Grace of God and convince them they have to do "works" to be saved, ...Paul said ,,,,"let that person be accursed".
So, anyone or any Church, who tries to deny the Grace of God, the faith based free Gift of Salvation, and in its place substitute "works" and "penance" and "deeds" instead, is "ACCURSED", according to Paul according to Galatians..




K

 

[neophyte]

Kidron,you write about "works". Many people don't understand Ephesians 2:8-9. In this passage, Paul says we are not saved by works. But James says that we ARE saved by works and not by faith alone in James 2:24. Is there a contradiction? No.
The difference is that Paul and James are talking about two different kinds of works. When Paul speaks of works, he is generally referring to "works of law" (read also Galatians) which refer to works done under the Mosaic law. The Jews believed that they still had to perform their ritual works to be saved (e.g., circumcision). In Acts 15, Peter declared that circumcision was no longer required for salvation. We are saved by grace, not works. When Paul refers to "works," he is also referring to any type of work where we attempt to obligate God and make him a debtor to us. The Jews were attempting to do this in their rigid system of law.
Paul is teaching that, with the death and resurrection of Christ, the Father has invited us into the system of grace where we now can have a gracious relationship with God. We are saved by grace through faith in Christ, not works of law. However, once we transition from the condemnation of the law into the system of grace (Rom 5:1-5), we must add works to our faith. We are not justified or saved by faith alone (James 2:24).
Thus, there is a distinction between "works of law" and "good works." The former are done in a system of law which cannot save us, and the latter are performed in a system of grace by which we are saved. If we approach God with faith in Christ that He is our Father and will reward us not because He is obligated but out of His sheer benevolence, we please Him in a system of grace and He will save us. If we approach God impersonally and try to obligate him to reward us for our works, He will condemn us. The distinction is "law" versus "grace." This permeates Paul's teaching on justification.
I recently send this short analysis to another of my patrons:
Here is the critical issue that you must understand: there are works in a system of law, and works in a system of grace. When we do works in a system of law, we stand condemned. That is because in this system, we try to obligate God like an employer. But there is nothing we can do to merit any payment from God.
When we do works in a system of grace, they are profitable to our salvation. That is because in a system of grace, we approach God as a Father who loves us, not as an employer who owes us. We move from a system of law to a system of grace through faith in Jesus Christ (Rom 5:1-5).
That is why Paul says that we are not "justified by works of law." He is referring primarily to the Mosaic law (e.g., circumcision) or any work where we try to obligate God. This is to be distinguished from works performed under the auspices of grace. There is a difference between "works of law" and "good works." This is why James says that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone (James 2:24).
Paul's teaching that we are not justified by works of law and James' teaching that we ARE justified by works appear to be inconsistent with each other, until you recognize that they are talking about two different systems: law and grace.

 

[Episkopos]

Wrong again, Episkopos.........and this one matters.

Let me help..
According to Galatians, Someone was preaching "ANOTHER GOSPEL", according to Paul........which tried to substitute the GRACE of God for a works based salvation....Galatians 1:6

Paul said this "other gospel" "PERVERTED" the Gospel of Christ, which is the Gospel of GRACE or the Free Gift of Righteousness....Romans 5:17 and Galatians 2:16

Paul said that anyone who would try to take a Believer, or a Church, and get them away from the Grace of God and convince them they have to do "works" to be saved, ...Paul said ,,,,"let that person be accursed".
So, anyone or any Church, who tries to deny the Grace of God, the faith based free Gift of Salvation, and in its place substitute "works" and "penance" and "deeds" instead, is "ACCURSED", according to Paul according to Galatians..




K

By your own words....

 

[neophyte]

Many of you Protestants err in their understanding of what Paul means by "works of the law” in his teaching on justification. Paul’s teaching that we are not justified by “works of the law” refer to the law of Moses or to any legal system that makes God our debtor. They do not refer to good works done in grace with faith in Christ. This makes sense when we remember that Paul's mission was to teach that salvation was also for the Gentiles who were not subject to the "works of the law." Here is the proof:
James 2:24 – compare the verse “a man is justified by works and not by faith alone” to Gal. 2:16 – “a man is not justified by works of the law,” and Rom. 3:20,28 – “no human being will be justified in His sight by works of the law.” James 2:24 appears to be inconsistent with Gal. 2:16 and Rom. 3:20,28 until one realizes that the Word of God cannot contradict itself. This means that the “works” in James 2:24 are different from the “works of the law in Gal. 2:16 and Rom. 3:20,28. James is referring to “good works” (e.g.,clothing the naked; giving food to the poor) and Paul is referring to the “Mosaic law” (which included both the legal, moral and ceremonial law) or any works which oblige God to give us payment. Here is more proof:
Rom. 3:20,28; Gal. 2:16 - Paul's phrase for "works of the law" in the Greek is "ergon nomou" which means the Mosaic law or Torah and refers to the teachings (legal, moral) and works (ceremonial) that gave the Jews the knowledge of sin, but not an escape from sin. We have further proof of this from the Dead Sea Scrolls which provide the Hebrew equivalent ("hrvt ysm") meaning "deeds of the law," or Mosaic law. James in James 2 does not use "ergon nomou." He uses "ergois agathois." Therefore, Paul’s "works of the law" and James' "works" are entirely different types of works. Again, they could never contradict each other because the Scriptures are the inspired word of God.

 

[Episkopos]

Many of you Protestants err in their understanding of what Paul means by "works of the law” in his teaching on justification. Paul’s teaching that we are not justified by “works of the law” refer to the law of Moses or to any legal system that makes God our debtor. They do not refer to good works done in grace with faith in Christ. This makes sense when we remember that Paul's mission was to teach that salvation was also for the Gentiles who were not subject to the "works of the law." Here is the proof:
James 2:24 – compare the verse “a man is justified by works and not by faith alone” to Gal. 2:16 – “a man is not justified by works of the law,” and Rom. 3:20,28 – “no human being will be justified in His sight by works of the law.” James 2:24 appears to be inconsistent with Gal. 2:16 and Rom. 3:20,28 until one realizes that the Word of God cannot contradict itself. This means that the “works” in James 2:24 are different from the “works of the law in Gal. 2:16 and Rom. 3:20,28. James is referring to “good works” (e.g.,clothing the naked; giving food to the poor) and Paul is referring to the “Mosaic law” (which included both the legal, moral and ceremonial law) or any works which oblige God to give us payment. Here is more proof:
Rom. 3:20,28; Gal. 2:16 - Paul's phrase for "works of the law" in the Greek is "ergon nomou" which means the Mosaic law or Torah and refers to the teachings (legal, moral) and works (ceremonial) that gave the Jews the knowledge of sin, but not an escape from sin. We have further proof of this from the Dead Sea Scrolls which provide the Hebrew equivalent ("hrvt ysm") meaning "deeds of the law," or Mosaic law. James in James 2 does not use "ergon nomou." He uses "ergois agathois." Therefore, Paul’s "works of the law" and James' "works" are entirely different types of works. Again, they could never contradict each other because the Scriptures are the inspired word of God.

Well said!!!!

You will find that this reality is lost on many since it does not line up with the prime directive of self-justification. The OP is about a free ride without any responsibility. It is an eternal welfare system. This is so ironic since these welfare system advocates are usually staunch republicans. The hypocrisy becomes rather apparent.

 

[Kidron]

Kidron,you write about "works". Many people don't understand Ephesians 2:8-9. In this passage, Paul says we are not saved by works. But James says that we ARE saved by works and not by faith alone in James 2:24. Is there a contradiction? No.

timestamp..........we are not saved by "works"..........we are saved by the Blood of Christ atoning for our sins, and we receive this atonement by faith.
So, the second you say that we are saved by "works", you are become a legalist, who is substituting the grace of God for works, while claiming you are not.

The difference is that Paul and James are talking about two different kinds of works. When Paul speaks of works, he is generally referring to "works of law"

Actually, if you read Galatians, you will discover that Paul is not talking about what you are describing, but he is instead talking about deeds of the flesh.
Deeds of the flesh include "works".



Paul is teaching that, with the death and resurrection of Christ, the Father has invited us into the system of grace where we now can have a gracious relationship with God. We are saved by grace through faith in Christ, not works of law. However, once we transition from the condemnation of the law into the system of grace (Rom 5:1-5), we must add works to our faith. We are not justified or saved by faith alone (James 2:24).


According to Paul, we are saved by Faith alone and not by "works of the Flesh".
&
According to Abraham, who discovered that Faith alone justifies and not "works of the flesh"......Romans 4:1-4

The problem you have with your idea of works that save you, is that you have not read James 2:23 that says that because Abraham >believed God< he was justified.
And because of his belief he was willing to DO.
Thats the context.
Believe (SAVED) then...........................DO.
See, works, just like water baptism, FOLLOW Salvation, they do not generate it.

The issue you have is that you are not getting the context of what James is speaking about..
The context is dead faith.....In other words, a believer who has been saved but does nothing......bears no fruit.
James is not saying this person is lost, but rather he is exhorting them to DO SOMETHING for God.
And this is the context.........and this is why James says..."I will show you my faith by my works"......as his works are the fruit of his faith.
So the contexts of Jame's "works" is not about Salvation as you have falsely concluded, but its about bearing fruit as proof you are saved.

Timestamp, we are all to bear fruit, as James is explaining, so that we have proof of our faith.....
But fruit bearing does not save us..........only Jesus saves us.
So, James's "works" have nothing to do with trying to save yourself or keep yourself saved by your deeds, as you have wrongly assumed.
So, until you understand this, you will remain a devout legalist who is trying to save yourself, instead of trusting in Christ alone, as you are admitting and you will continue to preach a gospel of works, that Paul said in Galatians make you "accursed".
And i didnt write that, Paul did.....and you are the person who is preaching the very "another Gospel".
And you are not the only one here doing it.

So, are you a Catholic?
As a Catholic will teach exactly the works based false salvation , using James, just as you do.
As a matter of fact, James and Hebrews and Matthew are the 3 NT books that have created more gospel heretics then all the other books in the bible combined.




K

By your own words....

Yes, my "own words" created a thread that gives the entire credit for Salvation to Christ alone.
You are correct. (for once)


K1

Many of you Protestants err in their understanding of what Paul means by "works of the law” in his teaching on justification.

And all Catholics and their POPE DENY that the blood of Christ applied by FAITH ALONE is the ONLY thing that redeems us from sin and the curse of the Law., while claiming at the same time they are not saying this.

And ive never met a Catholic yet that understands that the 10 commandments and keeping them wont save you, and are not necessary to be kept to be saved.

And all Catholics ive ever met will use James and a "works based" "deed based" evolved legalism to try to save themselves while admitting that Christ alone, and Faith in
Christ alone, is NOT what saves us.

And according to Paul, all that you are teaching is "another Gospel" Galatians 1:6-8 that has removed the simplicity of Salvation in Christ from the Atonement and substituted a "flesh" attempt, or a works or deeds based religion in place of the blood of Christ.

And no doubt you and other Catholics here will continue to post semantical books of legalism on this forum to prove that Paul is correct when he says you are preaching "another Gospel" other then the one he taught..



K

Oh ye Catholic legalist
[font=lucida sans unicode']How far thee has fallen from Grace...Galatians 5:4[/font]

[font=lucida sans unicode']Yet quickly the chains [/font]
[font=lucida sans unicode']would fall from your eyes[/font]
[font=lucida sans unicode']it thee ever catches[/font]
[font=lucida sans unicode']but one sweet glimpse of Faith...[/font][font=lucida sans unicode']Galatians 3:6,7[/font]




Ok legalists,...
as i was walking to the store today to get some Met-Rex protein bars, i was thinking about you and your issue.
I thought that perhaps the faith disconnect you Catholics and other legalists have concerning the Grace of God
is due to the fact that you are not understanding something very profound and unchanging regarding Salvation.

That is.....
Salvation is complete without you.
Do you realize this?
Salvation, redemption, justification, .....The Atonement, is a completed situation that stands alone, and does not need a human
being to complete it.
Salvation is a finished and completed atonement, ...Its complete without you.

Salvation, was a completed God Project the second that Jesus died and rose from the dead.
And had there been no people on the planet when Christ came out of that tomb.....salvation would still be "finished".
Its finished, completed, without the need of a human being to add to it.
So you need to get that....
If you can get that then the rest is easy.

Now, consider this scripture.......1st Corinthians 5:19...."God was in Christ, RECONCILING THE WORLD unto himself....(DONE)...(COMPLETED)...not charging their sins to them.....(DONE) (COMPLETED)......and has committed unto us the >word of reconciliation".

Let me ask you........have you ever really considered this scripture?
This scripture is telling you that a completed completed completed completed SALVATION is on STAND BY for the last 2000 years, and it is waiting to be RECEIVED by a human.

This completed package, this eternal pardon, is already completed , and all that remains is for it to be APPLIED BY FAITH.


Now, i'll let you think about that and perhaps you can come to the revelation that you dont ADD anything to a completed atonement that does not need you to be already completed.
All that you have to do with it , is to allow this FINISHED ATONEMENT TO BE APPLIED TO YOU.
This is where "FAITH ALONE" coms into the picture.

So, the second you try to add your works, your lifestyle, your deeds, your penance, to what is already COMPLETED........
Do you see the problem?
Do you see it?

And when you try to TEACH that you are to add your works, or your deeds, to an already FINISHED ATONEMENT.......
Do you see the problem yet?
This is why Paul wrote the letter to the Galatians.




K