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Featured Loving Providence

Discussion in 'Christian Theology Forum' started by Netchaplain, Jul 9, 2019.

  1. Anthony D'Arienzo

    Anthony D'Arienzo Well-Known Member

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    you do not understand Gods decree or predestination.
    God is pure and Holy, He cannot sin so do not even say such a thing.
    for you;
    Chapter 3: Of God's Decree
    1._____ God hath decreed in himself, from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably, all things, whatsoever comes to pass; yet so as thereby is God neither the author of sin nor hath fellowship with any therein; nor is violence offered to the will of the creature, nor yet is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established; in which appears his wisdom in disposing all things, and power and faithfulness in accomplishing his decree.
    ( Isaiah 46:10; Ephesians 1:11; Hebrews 6:17; Romans 9:15, 18; James 1:13; 1 John 1:5; Acts 4:27, 28; John 19:11; Numbers 23:19; Ephesians 1:3-5 )
    2._____ Although God knoweth whatsoever may or can come to pass, upon all supposed conditions, yet hath he not decreed anything, because he foresaw it as future, or as that which would come to pass upon such conditions.
    ( Acts 15:18; Romans 9:11, 13, 16, 18 )

    3._____ By the decree of God, for the manifestation of his glory, some men and angels are predestinated, or foreordained to eternal life through Jesus Christ, to the praise of his glorious grace; others being left to act in their sin to their just condemnation, to the praise of his glorious justice.
    ( 1 Timothy 5:21; Matthew 25:34; Ephesians 1:5, 6; Romans 9:22, 23; Jude 4 )

    4.______These angels and men thus predestinated and foreordained, are particularly and unchangeably designed, and their number so certain and definite, that it cannot be either increased or diminished.
    ( 2 Timothy 2:19; John 13:18 )

    5._____ Those of mankind that are predestinated to life, God, before the foundation of the world was laid, according to his eternal and immutable purpose, and the secret counsel and good pleasure of his will, hath chosen in Christ unto everlasting glory, out of his mere free grace and love, without any other thing in the creature as a condition or cause moving him thereunto.
    ( Ephesians 1:4, 9, 11; Romans 8:30; 2 Timothy 1:9; 1 Thessalonians 5:9; Romans 9:13, 16; Ephesians 2:5, 12 )

    6._____ As God hath appointed the elect unto glory, so he hath, by the eternal and most free purpose of his will, foreordained all the means thereunto; wherefore they who are elected, being fallen in Adam, are redeemed by Christ, are effectually called unto faith in Christ, by his Spirit working in due season, are justified, adopted, sanctified, and kept by his power through faith unto salvation; neither are any other redeemed by Christ, or effectually called, justified, adopted, sanctified, and saved, but the elect only.
    ( 1 Peter 1:2; 2 Thessalonians 2:13; 1 Thessalonians 5:9, 10; Romans 8:30; 2 Thessalonians 2:13; 1 Peter 1:5; John 10:26; John 17:9; John 6:64 )

    7._____ The doctrine of the high mystery of predestination is to be handled with special prudence and care, that men attending the will of God revealed in his Word, and yielding obedience thereunto, may, from the certainty of their effectual vocation, be assured of their eternal election; so shall this doctrine afford matter of praise, reverence, and admiration of God, and of humility, diligence, and abundant consolation to all that sincerely obey the gospel.
    ( 1 Thessalonians 1:4, 5; 2 Peter 1:10; Ephesians 1:6; Romans 11:33; Romans 11:5, 6, 20; Luke 10:20 )
     
  2. Anthony D'Arienzo

    Anthony D'Arienzo Well-Known Member

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    You are mistaken also;
    Chapter 3: Of God's Decree
    1._____ God hath decreed in himself, from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably, all things, whatsoever comes to pass; yet so as thereby is God neither the author of sin nor hath fellowship with any therein; nor is violence offered to the will of the creature, nor yet is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established; in which appears his wisdom in disposing all things, and power and faithfulness in accomplishing his decree.
    ( Isaiah 46:10; Ephesians 1:11; Hebrews 6:17; Romans 9:15, 18; James 1:13; 1 John 1:5; Acts 4:27, 28; John 19:11; Numbers 23:19; Ephesians 1:3-5 )
    2._____ Although God knoweth whatsoever may or can come to pass, upon all supposed conditions, yet hath he not decreed anything, because he foresaw it as future, or as that which would come to pass upon such conditions.
    ( Acts 15:18; Romans 9:11, 13, 16, 18 )

    3._____ By the decree of God, for the manifestation of his glory, some men and angels are predestinated, or foreordained to eternal life through Jesus Christ, to the praise of his glorious grace; others being left to act in their sin to their just condemnation, to the praise of his glorious justice.
    ( 1 Timothy 5:21; Matthew 25:34; Ephesians 1:5, 6; Romans 9:22, 23; Jude 4 )

    4.______These angels and men thus predestinated and foreordained, are particularly and unchangeably designed, and their number so certain and definite, that it cannot be either increased or diminished.
    ( 2 Timothy 2:19; John 13:18 )

    5._____ Those of mankind that are predestinated to life, God, before the foundation of the world was laid, according to his eternal and immutable purpose, and the secret counsel and good pleasure of his will, hath chosen in Christ unto everlasting glory, out of his mere free grace and love, without any other thing in the creature as a condition or cause moving him thereunto.
    ( Ephesians 1:4, 9, 11; Romans 8:30; 2 Timothy 1:9; 1 Thessalonians 5:9; Romans 9:13, 16; Ephesians 2:5, 12 )

    6._____ As God hath appointed the elect unto glory, so he hath, by the eternal and most free purpose of his will, foreordained all the means thereunto; wherefore they who are elected, being fallen in Adam, are redeemed by Christ, are effectually called unto faith in Christ, by his Spirit working in due season, are justified, adopted, sanctified, and kept by his power through faith unto salvation; neither are any other redeemed by Christ, or effectually called, justified, adopted, sanctified, and saved, but the elect only.
    ( 1 Peter 1:2; 2 Thessalonians 2:13; 1 Thessalonians 5:9, 10; Romans 8:30; 2 Thessalonians 2:13; 1 Peter 1:5; John 10:26; John 17:9; John 6:64 )

    7._____ The doctrine of the high mystery of predestination is to be handled with special prudence and care, that men attending the will of God revealed in his Word, and yielding obedience thereunto, may, from the certainty of their effectual vocation, be assured of their eternal election; so shall this doctrine afford matter of praise, reverence, and admiration of God, and of humility, diligence, and abundant consolation to all that sincerely obey the gospel.
    ( 1 Thessalonians 1:4, 5; 2 Peter 1:10; Ephesians 1:6; Romans 11:33; Romans 11:5, 6, 20; Luke 10:20 )
     
  3. Ernest T. Bass

    Ernest T. Bass Active Member

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    I do not accept the Baptist confession of faith or the WCF as God's inspired word for they contradict God's word.

    In #1 above it has:
    (a) God decreeing all things that come to pass, that means God would be culpable for all the evil that happens.
    But then it says:
    (b) "God neither the author of sin"

    A contradiction. "All things that come to pass" in would include sin.

    =====

    #2 above says "yet hath he not decreed anything, because he foresaw it as future".

    Again Ex 3:19-20 "And I am sure that the king of Egypt will not let you go, no, not by a mighty hand. And I will stretch out my hand, and smite Egypt with all my wonders which I will do in the midst thereof: and after that he will let you go." Here God did decree plagues on Egypt ("smite Egypt") because God foresaw in the future Pharaoh will not let the people go.

    =======

    #3 Above says " others being left to act in their sin to their just condemnation, to the praise of his glorious justice". God chose some to be saved leaving the rest to be lost to the praise of His justice. Yet Ezekiel 18:32 says God has no pleasure in the death of wicked but that the wicked turn and be lived. Why would God desire the wicked turn themselves and live if God already predetermined them to be lost and unable to turn?
     
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  4. Anthony D'Arienzo

    Anthony D'Arienzo Well-Known Member

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    Hello EBT.
    The scriptures alone are the rule of faith and practice, not the confession.
    The 1689,1644, are an outline to be used as a study tool.
    God is Holy and yet sin exists.
    If anything takes place ,it was ordained to take place.
    Nothing takes place outside of God's control.
    The confession is clear God makes no one sin. It is not a contradiction but a fact. Men are responsible for their sin...God is the righteous judge.
    Acts 2:23 Is clear the cross was ordained, yet men were responsible.
    God takes no pleasure in punishing sin.
    However each and every sin will be fully punished in the sinner or the substitute.

    God never has to foresee any person or event. He knows the end from the beginning Acts 15:18
     
  5. marks

    marks Well-Known Member

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    I have to agree with ETB, either you decree all things or you don't, and if you do, well, that's what you've done, decreed all things, including sin.

    You can't just go back and say, I've decreed everything to be that will ever be, but I didn't decree that.

    Does that not seem a contradiction?

    Much love!
     
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  6. Anthony D'Arienzo

    Anthony D'Arienzo Well-Known Member

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    No... I just think.your definitions are off from what the bible offers.
    Nothing not even one molecule exists or moves outside the control of God.
    God does not cause anyone to sin, ever.
    Sin takes place everyday.
    That it takes place means it was ordained to come to pass or it could not happen.
    God does not make people sin. They like to do it.
    When sin happens it does not surprise God. See rev.6:10-11
     
  7. Miss Hepburn

    Miss Hepburn Well-Known Member

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    Wait ... listen to what you wrote, my friend..He is in control of everything...yet, He does not cause anyone to sin...
    Now which is it?
    See what I mean? ;)

    Now I dunno if He is 'control'...but everything has it's being within Him...that's how I would say it anyway.
    Take care.
     
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  8. Anthony D'Arienzo

    Anthony D'Arienzo Well-Known Member

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    "Miss Hepburn,
    Hello MH,
    I do not think we have interacted before

    [Wait ... listen to what you wrote, my friend]

    Ok, I stand by what I post, let's see why.

    [He is in control of everything...yet, He does not cause anyone to sin...]
    Yes, He is; Let's see some scripture on this;

    4 He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.

    39 See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand.

    40 For I lift up my hand to heaven, and say, I live for ever.

    41 If I whet my glittering sword, and mine hand take hold on judgment; I will render vengeance to mine enemies, and will reward them that hate me.

    42 I will make mine arrows drunk with blood, and my sword shall devour flesh; and that with the blood of the slain and of the captives, from the beginning of revenges upon the enemy.

    43 Rejoice, O ye nations, with his people: for he will avenge the blood of his servants, and will render vengeance to his adversaries, and will be merciful unto his land, and to his people.

    psa115

    3 But our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased.
    [Now which is it?]
    It is both. God is in control but He does not make anyone sin, look here in JOB;
    8 And the Lord said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?

    9 Then Satan answered the Lord, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought?

    10 Hast not thou made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side? thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land.

    11 But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face.

    12 And the Lord said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the Lord.

    [see what I mean?]
    yes, I understand what you are asking


    [Now I dunno if He is 'control'...but everything has it's being within Him...that's how I would say it anyway.
    Take care.]
    He is in control. if you want a detailed answer I have 13-page link for you to read.
     
  9. Netchaplain

    Netchaplain Ordained Chaplain

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    Hi and appreciate your replies! It's my view that what man chooses decrees his ways, and the decree for "the law of sin" is "the soul that sinneth, it shall die," and since God knows man's chooses He knows what decree he must encounter, i.e. He knows ahead of time what he is destined for resulting from his choices.

    To me, "fitted for destruction" (Rom 9:22) means that when God is bringing one into this life He knows He's fitting (creating) one to destruction via their choice.
     
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  10. Miss Hepburn

    Miss Hepburn Well-Known Member

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    Ok first time...yes...:) And yes on the link.
    I had not realized we have never talked....took me a minute...your words in blue, me in [ ], and scripture also in blue and sometimes red!
    I got it now. Was not easy mostly because of the blues. Head spinning a bit...;) I'll manage...

    If I may...if someone thinks God is in control...would not that same person believe that it is God Himself
    controlling the hurricanes and earthquakes? Ok, and cancer in a person and the accident that cut off a leg?
    I hear many people blame, even curse God for these things...actually turn their backs on God because things seem so bad!
    (Or even at the death of a loved one...a common one!)
    Not trying to be antagonistic, ha, you know how forums can seem that way...
    just want to get clear on your beliefs and stuff, thanks Anthony.

    Also, what is MJS in your signature?
     
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  11. Ernest T. Bass

    Ernest T. Bass Active Member

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    I do not agree that God predetermines all that happens:
    --there is no biblical basis for such
    --it makes God culpable for all the wickedness that takes place
    --there are verses that speak to the fact God 'repented' which is senseless on the part of God if He has predetermined all that happens.
    --why would God have no pleasure in the wicked being lost but that the wicked turn and live if God has already determined they be lost and unable to turn, Ezekiel 18:32; Ezekiel 33:11? Why would God have all men be saved if He already predetermined many to be lost, 1 Timothy 2:4?
    --how could the Jews go from being God's elect to being cast off and the Gentiles go from being not elect to being elect (Romans 11) if election is a done deal that took place before the world began?


    Acts 2:23 does not say God predetermined all that happens. God did predetermine Christ would die for the sins of man. God foreknew man would sin and be in need of a Saviour. God foreknew if He sent Christ to earth at the time He did with the message of the gospel, that men (Jews, Romans, Judas) of their own free will would turn against Christ and crucify Him. Therefore God used the free will choice He foreknew men would make to accomplish His determined will that Christ die on the cross. Since God used men's free will choice to crucify Christ, that is why Peter could put the blame at the feet of those men whose 'wicked hands' killed Christ. If God predetermined all that happens, then Peter could not rightly, justly condemn men for what God made them do and God would have culpability in Christ dying, God's hands would be the 'wicked hands' that killed Christ.
     
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  12. Nancy

    Nancy Well-Known Member

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    [​IMG]
     
  13. Anthony D'Arienzo

    Anthony D'Arienzo Well-Known Member

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    You do not understand any of the verses you posted
    .you fail to understand the issue at all.
    In fact it is just the opposite of what you post here.
    I will show this later on.
     
  14. Anthony D'Arienzo

    Anthony D'Arienzo Well-Known Member

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    I will expand on this later,but for now while we disagree I can see where we have some areas we can agree on.
     
  15. Anthony D'Arienzo

    Anthony D'Arienzo Well-Known Member

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    Ok good post. I will try and clarify, some now[I am on lunch break] more later when I get online on my laptop
    One example for now...
    Turn to Amos 4..look carefully what God tells the people in verses 6-12
    God sent famine in verse6
    .yet you have not returned to me...
    Vs 7..he controlled the rain...made it rain, withheld the rain
    Vs9.plagues on the crops.
    Vs 10. Death
    Vs11.over threw some of them.

    Turn to Jonah;
    What did God prepare....
    1]a storm 1:4

    2]a great fish 1:17

    3]a gourd vine,4:6

    4] a worm...4:

    All to accomplish His ordained purpose
     
  16. Anthony D'Arienzo

    Anthony D'Arienzo Well-Known Member

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    Netchaplain,

    Hello NC,
    [Hi and appreciate your replies! It's my view that what man chooses decrees his ways, and the decree for "the law of sin" is "the soul that sinneth, it shall die,"]



    Could you clarify? Is God just an observer here, or a spectator who has no real control?




    [and since God knows man's chooses He knows what decree he must encounter, i.e. He knows ahead of time what he is destined for resulting from his choices.]

    Once God sees' or learns that man will...then He decrees?
    Maybe i am misreading this. How would this idea compare with this? Isa46:

    9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,

    10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

    11 Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea,
    I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.



    [To me, "fitted for destruction" (Rom 9:22) means that when God is bringing one into this life He knows He's fitting (creating) one to destruction via their choice.]

    Some have suggested that this phrase means...having fitted themselves to Destruction. They without grace commit sin after sin.
     
  17. Anthony D'Arienzo

    Anthony D'Arienzo Well-Known Member

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    Miss Hepburn,

    [Ok first time...yes...:) And yes on the link.]

    Here is the link;
    http://www.sgbcsv.org/literature/ProblemOfEvil.pdf


    [I had not realized we have never talked....took me a minute...your words in blue, me in [ ], and scripture also in blue and sometimes red!]

    after I hit reply, it does not give me a quote option?


    [If I may...if someone thinks God is in control...would not that same person believe that it is God Himself
    controlling the hurricanes and earthquakes?]


    Yes God is in absolute control of this world and the whole universe; Even if He allows Satan to afflict people nothing happens that He does not have complete control over.

    148 Praise ye the Lord. Praise ye the Lord from the heavens: praise him in the heights.

    2 Praise ye him, all his angels: praise ye him, all his hosts.

    3 Praise ye him, sun and moon: praise him, all ye stars of light.

    4 Praise him, ye heavens of heavens, and ye waters that be above the heavens.

    5 Let them praise the name of the Lord: for he commanded, and they were created.

    6 He hath also stablished them for ever and ever: he hath made a decree which shall not pass.

    7 Praise the Lord from the earth, ye dragons, and all deeps:

    8 Fire, and hail; snow, and vapours; stormy wind fulfilling his word:

    9 Mountains, and all hills; fruitful trees, and all cedars:

    10 Beasts, and all cattle; creeping things, and flying fowl:

    11 Kings of the earth, and all people; princes, and all judges of the earth:

    12 Both young men, and maidens; old men, and children:



    [Ok, and cancer in a person and the accident that cut off a leg?]

    10 And Moses said unto the Lord, O my Lord, I am not eloquent, neither heretofore, nor since thou hast spoken unto thy servant: but I am slow of speech, and of a slow tongue.

    11 And the Lord said unto him, Who hath made man's mouth? or who maketh the dumb, or deaf, or the seeing, or the blind? have not I the Lord?

    12 Now therefore go, and I will be with thy mouth, and teach thee what thou shalt say.



    [I hear many people blame, even curse God for these things...actually turn their backs on God because things seem so bad!
    (Or even at the death of a loved one...a common one!)]


    If a person remains ignorant of the full scope of revelation available in scripture, they will say and do profane things before God. God does not owe rebellious sinful man anything.


    [Not trying to be antagonistic, ha, you know how forums can seem that way...
    just want to get clear on your beliefs and stuff, thanks Anthony.]



    I do not have thin skin, you can ask any question, agree, disagree, it is all good.

    [Also, what is MJS in your signature?]

    what is an MJS?
     
  18. Netchaplain

    Netchaplain Ordained Chaplain

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    I suppose there is another way of attempting explaining it. "He has saved us . . . according to His own purpose and grace" (2Ti 1:9). God did not intend the whole of mankind to be saved because He knew most would not "choose life" (Deu 30:19 - Mat 7:13, 14); for what God knows will not be, He does not intend, e.g. He did not purpose Adam and Eve to avoid the "Tree of Knowledge" because He knew they would partake, thus it is His purpose, which He has always known, that those who choose wrongly will perish (apart from Christ) and those choosing rightly will live. Such is the decree for each, according to God's foreknowledge of their choices.

    God be blessed!
     
  19. Anthony D'Arienzo

    Anthony D'Arienzo Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for your clarification.
    Some come to a similar conclusion.
    I do not because I believe that this understanding of foreknowledge is not following the Biblical usage.
    NC, read the same verses, but read them understanding that God foreknows the people...Whom...Not What they will believe.
    God knows because He has purposed who and how He saves His people.
     
  20. Netchaplain

    Netchaplain Ordained Chaplain

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    True, these days there is much difference in scriptural understanding between Bible studying believers. God give us to know His mind in His Word! God be blessed and all who are and will be His!
     
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