Lucifer or a Fallen Angel

[face2face]

Like Ezekiel 28:13-18, this section of Scripture does not mention the words "devil, satan, or fallen angel", so sadly again, we have an inferred argument from the gecko (if you are Australian this will make sense ;)) however, for all others, it means "from the get go!"

I can't believe Christians make the same mistake on Ezekiel 28 as they do here in Isaiah 14:12-14 in identifying the true nature of Lucifer.

Lucifer is not a rebel angel!

It is explicitly stated with absolute clarity:- "you will taunt the king of Babylon with these words "Look how the oppressor has met his end! Hostility has ceased!" Isaiah 14:4

(Now admittedly it will be in the form of a parable so we will need to strap our spiritual helmets on and channel the Father and seek to understand how He communicates to His Children)

You cant blame me for sighing once again because he we go again... Isaiah 13 is a prophecy against Babylon itself, but now the prophecy is directed against the king of Babylon.

It's not looking good dear Christians.

To be cont...

F2F

 

[Skovand1075]

Well the reference is to Venus. Often a king is considered a god and linked to planet.

So I think the implications is that as the Hosts of Heavens begin to turn against each other , the lands they governed over went into issues such as the one the king here is being brought into. So the King of the nation and the heavenly prince over that nation are both probably Jews go connected. Daniel 10.

 

[face2face]

Well the reference is to Venus.

Correct.

Lucifer means "Day Star" as per the translators NET notes on the Hebrew text הֵילֵל בֶּן־שָׁחַר (helel ben-shakhar, “Helel son of Shachar”), which is probably a name for the morning star (Venus) or the crescent moon.

It actually fits the imagery perfectly of the King of Babylon and a very clever use of a celestial planet.

The planet Venus is low in the sky just before dawn and rises higher and higher until unseen in the daylight. It's crazy that the same bright planet is also an "evening star" which seen at sunset and heads lower and lower until lost beneath the horizon.

A perfect figure of Lucifer, king of Babylon rising in his power to the point he states in his heart "I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God"

It reminds me of those arrogant words of King Nebuchadnezzar, who said: "Is not this great Babylon, that I have built for the house of the kingdom by the might of my power, and for the honour of my majesty?" as per Daniel 4:30.

Now this "evening star" which is seen at sunset and heads down and down until lost beneath the horizon is figurative for the eventual demise of Lucifer - "brought down to hell (means grave), to the sides of the pit (i.e grave)." (Isaiah 14:15).

Wow this could be the shortest thread ever!

No fallen angel here either.

We really only have Job which is the easiest of all the text to prove no fallen angel there either. We could look at Genesis 6 if we need to...but the OT is silent to a fallen angel which means we then head for the NT to discern the meaning an application of words, which could take many months, but I think its worth the exercise.

 

[Skovand1075]

Correct.

Lucifer means "Day Star" as per the translators NET notes on the Hebrew text הֵילֵל בֶּן־שָׁחַר (helel ben-shakhar, “Helel son of Shachar”), which is probably a name for the morning star (Venus) or the crescent moon.

It actually fits the imagery perfectly of the King of Babylon and a very clever use of a celestial planet.

The planet Venus is low in the sky just before dawn and rises higher and higher until unseen in the daylight. It's crazy that the same bright planet is also an "evening star" which seen at sunset and heads lower and lower until lost beneath the horizon.

A perfect figure of Lucifer, king of Babylon rising in his power to the point he states in his heart "I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God"

It reminds me of those arrogant words of King Nebuchadnezzar, who said: "Is not this great Babylon, that I have built for the house of the kingdom by the might of my power, and for the honour of my majesty?" as per Daniel 4:30.

Now this "evening star" which is seen at sunset and heads down and down until lost beneath the horizon is figurative for the eventual demise of Lucifer - "brought down to hell (means grave), to the sides of the pit (i.e grave)." (Isaiah 14:15).

Wow this could be the shortest thread ever!

No fallen angel here either.

We really only have Job which is the easiest of all the text to prove no fallen angel there either. We could look at Genesis 6 if we need to...but the OT is silent to a fallen angel which means we then head for the NT to discern the meaning an application of words, which could take many months, but I think its worth the exercise.

I view Job as fiction, and so it brings up no doctrine, just wisdom.

 

[TLHKAJ]

I view Job as fiction, and so it brings up no doctrine, just wisdom.

Whether you believe the Bible is fact or fiction has zero bearing on the fact that all scripture is given by inspiration of God.

2 Timothy 3:15-17
[15]And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
[16]All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
[17]That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

 

[amigo de christo]

Whether you believe the Bible is fact or fiction has zero bearing on the fact that all scripture is given by inspiration of God.

2 Timothy 3:15-17
[15]And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
[16]All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
[17]That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

Spot on right sister . Spot on right . Let all that has breath praise and thank the LORD .

 

[Skovand1075]

Whether you believe the Bible is fact or fiction has zero bearing on the fact that all scripture is given by inspiration of God.

2 Timothy 3:15-17
[15]And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
[16]All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
[17]That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

I never said scripture is not inspired. All of it is. Even the fictional parts.

 

[face2face]

I view Job as fiction, and so it brings up no doctrine, just wisdom.

Yes, its a well known view of Job...either way as you say the wisdom for its time is remarkable.

 

[TLHKAJ]

I never said scripture is not inspired. All of it is. Even the fictional parts.

Why do you believe it's fictional? (I believe it's fact and there is nothing that alludes to it being fictional.)

 

[FHII]

... Isaiah 13 is a prophecy against Babylon itself, but now the prophecy is directed against the king of Babylon

Yes.... I was reading it last week and it links it to Nebuchadnezzer. Most people know he was king of Babylon, but most don't know he was a Chaldean. He conquered Babylon. Verse 13:19 identifies him as a Chaldees and thus Nebuchadnezzer.

Lucifer means "Day Star" as per the translators NET notes on the Hebrew text הֵילֵל בֶּן־שָׁחַר (helel ben-shakhar, “Helel son of Shachar”), which is probably a name for the morning star (Venus) or the crescent moon.

I have no doubt that they have meant Venus the planet, but it is not the morning star. It's not a star. It's a planet. The morning star is the Sun. Lucifer (Nubuchanezzer) may have been Venus, but he was not the Sun -- a real star -- which actually contributes to life. And he learned that inDaniel!

 

[face2face]

@TLHKAJ It's a tough one because the way its written, in the time period its written in, addressing the commonly held beliefs of retribution, the text is not limited by the constraints of actual historical experiences especially those of Job's (so called) friends! If you see it like one of Jesus's parable where everything is just right perfectly presented to demonstrate a primary lesson. Job reads like wisdom text i.e Psalms, Proverbs etc.

 

[face2face]

I view Job as fiction, and so it brings up no doctrine, just wisdom.

Hmmm you must have a difference there between doctrine and wisdom? Could it be argued they are one in the same? Maybe you can provide an example?

 

[Skovand1075]

Why do you believe it's fictional? (I believe it's fact and there is nothing that alludes to it being fictional.)

Well that’s a entirely separate issue and I am not going to spend the time at this moment to go through it. But if you have the time there are some good resources to use to work though this question.

This is a podcast by Harvard grad biblical scholar, Pete Enns.
Episode 133- The Book of Job

This is by Tim Mackie.
The Book of Job Thought Experiment | BibleProject™

perhaps in a few weeks I’ll have time and desire to work through the genre of job.

 

[Skovand1075]

Hmmm you must have a difference there between doctrine and wisdom? Could it be argued they are one in the same? Maybe you can provide an example?

do you make doctrine from parables or get wisdom from them?

ever look into proverbial truth vs facts? Proverbial truth , parable truth, and facts are all truth, are all full of wisdom, but they don’t all produce doctrine.

 

[face2face]

do you make doctrine from parables or get wisdom from them?

Doctrine simply means teaching, so yeah, I guess you could say we get wisdom from them. But you have challenged me.

Matthew 21:38 teaches us the Jews knew that Jesus was the Son of God and that they killed him, so I think parables do contain doctrine.

I think if your view of doctrine is narrow then you would be correct, but mine is more in line with instruction in righteousness, which is a broader idea.

 

[Skovand1075]

Well most people historically that I know have used doctrine to refer to something like “ the deity of Christ “ and wisdom to something like don’t put all your eggs in one basket.

so take fiction. Like psalms 74. I don’t think god battled a fire breathing multiheaded sea dragon. It’s metaphorical. It’s not doctrinal. There is no “ doctrine of Yahweh battling sea monsters “ but we can get wisdom from the story by understanding the cultural importance of how the sea, and sea dragons, represent chaos and that Yahweh conquered chaos and made the world beautiful.

 

[TLHKAJ]

But if you have the time there are some good resources to use to work though this question.

I don't need resources to try to convince me that God's Word is mostly metaphorical and fiction. I don't hold to that belief system.... at all.

 

[Skovand1075]

I don't need resources to try to convince me that God's Word is mostly metaphorical and fiction. I don't hold to that belief system.... at all.

Well that’s your prerogative. We don’t have to ever learn anything beyond our echo chambers. We can remain in them happily for our entire life. You quoted me and brought up why I think it’s fictional. I posted two resources by some of the most popular Old Testament biblical scholars on this planet. I personally listen to tons of counter arguments. I listen to points of views I don’t agree with, study them, and I either adjust my own views or develop a ever stronger counter to them.

Also just to be clear. I never said mostly. That’s something you added. There is actually some psychology around why people slightly change words around, or add or eliminate some, to change the actual contention.

 

[BeyondET]

Well most people historically that I know have used doctrine to refer to something like “ the deity of Christ “ and wisdom to something like don’t put all your eggs in one basket.

so take fiction. Like psalms 74. I don’t think god battled a fire breathing multiheaded sea dragon. It’s metaphorical. It’s not doctrinal. There is no “ doctrine of Yahweh battling sea monsters “ but we can get wisdom from the story by understanding the cultural importance of how the sea, and sea dragons, represent chaos and that Yahweh conquered chaos and made the world beautiful.

Sounds like braking the whales mouth which jonah entered, not sure about the two heads is that later in the chapter?

 

[Mark51]

The name Lucifer occurs once in the Scriptures and only in some versions of the Bible. For example, the King James Version renders Isaiah 14:12: “How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning!”

The Hebrew word translated “Lucifer” means “shining one.” The Septuagint uses the Greek word that means “bringer of dawn.” Hence, some translations render the original Hebrew “morning star” or “Daystar.” But Jerome’s Latin Vulgate uses “Lucifer” (light bearer), and this accounts for the appearance of that term in various versions of the Bible.

The expression “shining one,” or “Lucifer,” is found in what Isaiah prophetically commanded the Israelites to pronounce as a “proverbial saying against the king of Babylon.” Thus, it is part of a saying primarily directed at the Babylonian dynasty. That the description “shining one” is given to a man and not to a spirit creature is further seen by the statement: “Down to Sheol you will be brought.” Sheol is the common grave of mankind--not a place occupied by Satan the Devil. Moreover, those seeing Lucifer brought into this condition ask: “Is this the man that was agitating the earth?” Clearly, “Lucifer” refers to a human, not to a spirit creature.-Isaiah 14:4, 15, 16.