May I suggest this for securing your eternal life?

[John Zain]

Throughout the entire Scriptures, only the righteous are saved.

The Christian is responsible for maintaining his imputed righteousness ...

“... whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him.” (Acts 10:35)

“… you know that everyone who practices righteousness is born of Him.” (1 John 2:29)

“... let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous” (1 John 3:7)

“… so now present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness.” (Rom 6:19)

“Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey,
you are that one’s slaves whom you obey,
whether (slaves) of sin leading to (eternal) death,
OR (slaves) of obedience leading to righteousness?” (Romans 6:16)

Q: Why don't people see that ... the warnings (which are viewed as negative)
are somewhat hidden along side of the PPs (the positive promises)?

A: Too many people just cannot handle the powerful threats contained in the warnings!

However, Jesus to the rescue, as always ...

"But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another,
and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.
If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
If we confess (repent of) our sins, He is faithful and just
to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us."
(1 John 1:7-10)

Dunno, maybe this is the most important part of practicing righteousness:
the sincere repentance of sin.

 

[This Vale Of Tears]

The Bible says so much on the issue of salvation that it's understandable that people want to look for a simple formula, something that, once completed, alleviates all worry so that we can live the rest of our lives insouciant. I mean, after all, we sign contracts with our automobile insurance company and likewise for fire insurance, life insurance, and other types of insurance. With the contract sign, the provider is obligated to fulfill the terms of the contract in full. So isn't there some kind of contract we can make that obligates God to save us and sets our course irretractibly to heaven? The "once saved always saved" crowd seems to think so.

I say that true trust in God is trusting even our eternal fate to his provincial discernment, expecting no guarantees of salvation, making no attempt to bind God's final judgment to our favor, and resigning ourselves to the fact that our eternal destiny is as of yet undecided. It's truly humbling to maintain an appropriate dread of the day of judgment. Would we be better Christians if we truly worked out our salvation with fear and trembling?

 

[justaname]

Romans 10:8-10
8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart”—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching,
9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

I suggest you meditate on this to secure your eternal life. I suggest you abide here humbly broken of pride and self righteousness knowing there is nothing you can do to merit salvation. I suggest you cling to the feet of Jesus and the righteousness He provides, instead of establishing your own.

Matthew 6:33
33 “But seek first His kingdom and His righteousness, and all these things will be added to you.

Romans 10:3-4
3 For not knowing about God’s righteousness and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God.
4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

The Bible says so much on the issue of salvation that it's understandable that people want to look for a simple formula, something that, once completed, alleviates all worry so that we can live the rest of our lives insouciant. I mean, after all, we sign contracts with our automobile insurance company and likewise for fire insurance, life insurance, and other types of insurance. With the contract sign, the provider is obligated to fulfill the terms of the contract in full. So isn't there some kind of contract we can make that obligates God to save us and sets our course irretractibly to heaven? The "once saved always saved" crowd seems to think so.

I say that true trust in God is trusting even our eternal fate to his provincial discernment, expecting no guarantees of salvation, making no attempt to bind God's final judgment to our favor, and resigning ourselves to the fact that our eternal destiny is as of yet undecided. It's truly humbling to maintain an appropriate dread of the day of judgment. Would we be better Christians if we truly worked out our salvation with fear and trembling?

1 John 5:13
13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

 

[williemac]

Throughout the entire Scriptures, only the righteous are saved.

The Christian is responsible for maintaining his imputed righteousness ...

“... whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him.” (Acts 10:35)

“… you know that everyone who practices righteousness is born of Him.” (1 John 2:29)

“... let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous” (1 John 3:7)

“… so now present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness.” (Rom 6:19)

“Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey,
you are that one’s slaves whom you obey,
whether (slaves) of sin leading to (eternal) death,
OR (slaves) of obedience leading to righteousness?” (Romans 6:16)

Q: Why don't people see that ... the warnings (which are viewed as negative)
are somewhat hidden along side of the PPs (the positive promises)?

A: Too many people just cannot handle the powerful threats contained in the warnings!

However, Jesus to the rescue, as always ...

"But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another,
and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.
If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
If we confess (repent of) our sins, He is faithful and just
to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us."
(1 John 1:7-10)

Dunno, maybe this is the most important part of practicing righteousness:
the sincere repentance of sin.

Greetings. Gave up on the other discussion, so you started a new one on the same subject?
Firstly, there is no scripture that states repentance from sin as a requirement for life. To repent means literally to change one's mind. If the word is used and sin is not mentioned in the context, then sin is not what is being repented of. Repentance can apply to other things as well as sin.ie: unbelief. The confession of sin is not the same as repentance from it. The confession of it is meant as a show of humility and honesty about its presence in us and our lack of ability to remove it. Thus we are confessing it in order to demonstrate our need and desire for forgiveness. If we could successfully repent from sin there would be no need to be forgiven, as it would be gone. Get it?

As well, the only warning we have concerning everlasting life is that if we refuse to accept it by a free gift of grace thanks to the cross, then we will perish. This is the biblical warning. The gospel is good news. What you are presenting to us is anything but good news. It amounts to the cross providing a temporary reprieve from the wrath of God under the condition that we behave ourselves. This in so many words, is nothing less than salvation by law.

FACT: Rom.6:19 is not a warning, it is a teaching. We are taught to practice righteousness. This is no way is intended to be a condition for salvation. It is called fruit, for a reason. Paul told the Ephesians in 4:24 that they should put on the new man .." which WAS created according to God in true righteousness and holiness" We have the new man in us thanks to the new birth. We are not righteous because we do righteous things, we are righteous because the gift of righteousness was placed within us. The practice of righteousness is referred to as fruit. The tree must first be a fruit tree before it can bear fruit. So yes, he who practices righteousness is righteous. But make no mistake. Many unbelievers also practice righteousness. This will not save them either, as the practice of it is not what saved us nor keeps us saved. Faith is what keeps us in good standing. The Galatians were practicing righteousness but were told they were fallen from grace as they were attempting to be justified by law. They forgot that justification comes first, not by works lest any man should boast.

FACT: He who is born of God does not sin, nor can he, because he is born of God. (12John 3:9). Does John contradict himself? Is he delusional? No, he is giving us some vital information about our position before God. Because we have an advocate with the Father (Jesus, 1John 2:1), the promise made in John 5:24 is applied to us. Our sin is removed from God's record and we are considered righteous and holy and in His eyes, Who sees the end from the beginning, we are sinless. Do you know what the word "remission" means? If so, then why do you deny it? Is it up to me or you to remove our sin, or is this the work and ministry of our Lord? Remission is a done deal. If anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. While we have this treasure in earthen vessels (2Cor.4:7), we are subject to the sin of the flesh, but our flesh is a temporary burden that we bear. It is already positionally dead, having been crucified with Christ. The body of sin cannot keep us from our destiny.

The reason you see these warnings as somewhat hidden is because they are a figment of someone's imagination. They are contrived by those who seek to burden the believer with a salvation by works curse. Don't fall for it. We are free from the curse of the law. Why do you insist on re establishing it?

Here is one other passage from John in 1John...5:10-13....

10: He who believes in the Son of God has the witness in himself; he who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed the testimony that God has given of His Son. 11: And this is the testimony; that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12: He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son does not have life. 13: These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God" .

1John 5:4 "For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that overcomes the world - OUR FAITH"

 

[musterion]

Salvation by "walking the line" is not salvation. Salvation, as Paul taught it, is to be not only saved but SAFE. One either is saved and safe in Christ, or one is not. With salvation now being on the basis of grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone without works, not even Paul could tell with certainty if certain other believers in the churches to which he wrote were actually in Christ...he HOPED they were but still voices his doubts at some points.

Show me someone who believes salvation can be obtained but then lost/surrendered/forfeited/sinned away, and I'll show you someone who believes a works salvation gospel. Every. Single. Time. Because they HAVE to.

Which means, odds are, they don't trust the Cross.

 

[This Vale Of Tears]

Salvation by "walking the line" is not salvation. Salvation, as Paul taught it, is to be not only saved but SAFE. One either is saved and safe in Christ, or one is not. With salvation now being on the basis of grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone without works, not even Paul could tell with certainty if certain other believers in the churches to which he wrote were actually in Christ...he HOPED they were but still voices his doubts at some points.

Show me someone who believes salvation can be obtained but then lost/surrendered/forfeited/sinned away, and I'll show you someone who believes a works salvation gospel. Every. Single. Time. Because they HAVE to.

Which means, odds are, they don't trust the Cross.

That's truly a mischaracterization. The Bible tells us repeatedly that we are to endure to the end which is our part and duty. To say that this means we aren't saved by grace or that we're working our way to heaven is a serious lapse in logic. We have a duty in the drama of salvation. Jesus said that we do what we are told to do and then say, "We are unprofitable servants, we did our duty." So fulfilling our end of the bargain doesn't make us profitable, nor does it span the distance in regard to the debt that was paid for salvation. It means that we have obligations too and should not expect salvation if we don't hold on to it and more than we should expect our lives to be saved by a rope thrown down to us if we don't hold on to that rope.

And I can turn the whole fear thing around and ask the OSAS camp why they are so afraid of good works, as long as we're falsely impugning fear in those who disagree with us like you're doing.

 

[justaname]

That's truly a mischaracterization. The Bible tells us repeatedly that we are to endure to the end which is our part and duty. To say that this means we aren't saved by grace or that we're working our way to heaven is a serious lapse in logic. We have a duty in the drama of salvation. Jesus said that we do what we are told to do and then say, "We are unprofitable servants, we did our duty." So fulfilling our end of the bargain doesn't make us profitable, nor does it span the distance in regard to the debt that was paid for salvation. It means that we have obligations too and should not expect salvation if we don't hold on to it and more than we should expect our lives to be saved by a rope thrown down to us if we don't hold on to that rope.

And I can turn the whole fear thing around and ask the OSAS camp why they are so afraid of good works, as long as we're falsely impugning fear in those who disagree with us like you're doing.

Well as far as good works are concerned, I encourage them. I do not fear them at all in fact I relish them, for they bring honor and glory to our Father who is in heaven. Yet in these I do not feel I am doing anything to secure my salvation through such. The only One able to secure my salvation is Christ, and through my faith in His completed work, I am secure in that salvation indeed.

Sacraments do not secure salvation. Good works do not secure salvation. Living a life sinless, as if that were even possible, would not secure salvation. Only God can secure salvation. Only One did what was pleasing to the Father at all times, this being Jesus. Only faith in Him, who is our righteousness to those who believe, can secure salvation. Romans 10:9 is quite clear.


2 Timothy 1:9
9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity,

My question is why can't people come to the understanding that salvation is dependent solely on God and His purpose. None would have faith unless God allowed it. Paul would have been hell bound had God not struck him down and blinded him on the road to Damascus. Peter would have stayed a fisher of fish. Thomas would have died in unbelief. All of us who have been effectively called with a holy calling are being used for His purpose, not our own. It is His grace on display, not our faith. It is His mercy being amplified, not our sound judgement, else we would have room to boast. It is His righteousness that is worthy from the moment of belief, and nothing need be added.

We are not robots. We do have choice. Yet all are enslaved to sin unless released through faith in Christ. None can come to faith unless God allows it. We can't outwit sin and death, and we surely can not outwit God.

All this to say that if God is the one purposing your salvation, you can be secure in the knowledge that it will come to fruition, and the only way to secure your salvation is to depend on Him for it.

 

[williemac]

That's truly a mischaracterization. The Bible tells us repeatedly that we are to endure to the end which is our part and duty. To say that this means we aren't saved by grace or that we're working our way to heaven is a serious lapse in logic. We have a duty in the drama of salvation. Jesus said that we do what we are told to do and then say, "We are unprofitable servants, we did our duty." So fulfilling our end of the bargain doesn't make us profitable, nor does it span the distance in regard to the debt that was paid for salvation. It means that we have obligations too and should not expect salvation if we don't hold on to it and more than we should expect our lives to be saved by a rope thrown down to us if we don't hold on to that rope.

And I can turn the whole fear thing around and ask the OSAS camp why they are so afraid of good works, as long as we're falsely impugning fear in those who disagree with us like you're doing.

Round and round we go. Enduring to the end? Why not read the quote from 1John 5:4 and see what this looks like. This is the victory that overcomes the world..."our faith". And by the attempts on this site to pull people away from faith and into works, there certainly must be some enduring that has to be done in order to resist. Holding onto the rope is done by holding onto Jesus. We received Him by faith. We hold onto Him and to life by remaining in faith and not wavering to some other form or method of receiving life. It is a gift, given by grace, and received by faith and especially humility. God gives grace to the humble. Putting obligations onto a person will give them a cause for boasting when they meet these obligations (or when they are delusional enough to think we can earn our way to life).

 

[musterion]

Vale, I see you've replied to someone. I don't know about anyone else but I already ignore your posts due to you not giving me straight answers to simple questions on another thread. Now you're here making a pest of yourself, annoying others with your avatar of the world's #1 universalist, whom you must adore or else, and his gospel of dung.

Please stop cluttering threads with comments on topics about which you have nothing of substance to share except what your universalist church says you must believe. Either think and speak for yourself, or go away.

To the degree a person trusts in his own righteous works to make him right with God or to keep him right with God, to that same degree he does not trust Christ.

 

[This Vale Of Tears]

Vale, I see you've replied to someone. I don't know about anyone else but I already ignore your posts due to you not giving me straight answers to simple questions on another thread. Now you're here making a pest of yourself, annoying others with your avatar of the world's #1 universalist, whom you must adore or else, and his gospel of dung.

Please stop cluttering threads with comments on topics about which you have nothing of substance to share except what your universalist church says you must believe. Either think and speak for yourself, or go away.

To the degree a person trusts in his own righteous works to make him right with God or to keep him right with God, to that same degree he does not trust Christ.

The topic of the thread is securing salvation, something I don't believe is possible. And all my posts have been on target. Why don't you take a reading comprehension course before you go on the attack so you stop embarrassing yourself?

Round and round we go. Enduring to the end? Why not read the quote from 1John 5:4 and see what this looks like. This is the victory that overcomes the world..."our faith". And by the attempts on this site to pull people away from faith and into works, there certainly must be some enduring that has to be done in order to resist. Holding onto the rope is done by holding onto Jesus. We received Him by faith. We hold onto Him and to life by remaining in faith and not wavering to some other form or method of receiving life. It is a gift, given by grace, and received by faith and especially humility. God gives grace to the humble. Putting obligations onto a person will give them a cause for boasting when they meet these obligations (or when they are delusional enough to think we can earn our way to life).

But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end. Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast unto the end. Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. (Hebrews 3:8,12,14, 4:1)

You could at least be humble enough to admit the Bible seems to strongly support both positions, that we could lose our salvation and that it's secure. I think that being told we are to "work out your salvation with fear and trembling" doesn't read "work out your salvation with smug confidence and arrogance." It's appropriate, humble, and even worshipful to dread the day of judgment, knowing that we will stand before a holy God who will scrutinize our lives according to his perfect standard. "Fear and trembling" is well illustrated by the Hebrews huddling in their homes as the angel of death passed them over only because of the blood of the lamb painted on their doorposts. The Bible says of those who are saved that we are "scarcely saved". (1Peter 4:18)

For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame
For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

(Hebrews 6:4-8)

We must be faithful to the end, or we cannot rightfully expect to be saved.

 

[Webers_Home]

.
In the statements below; note the grammatical tense of the "have" verb.
It's present tense rather than future; indicating that believers have eternal
life right now-- no delay and no waiting period.

†. John 3:36 . . He who believes in the Son has eternal life

†. John 6:47 . .Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.

†. John 5:24 . . I assure you, those who heed my message, and trust in God
who sent me, have eternal life. They will never be condemned for their sins,
but they have already passed from death into life.

†. 1John 5:13 . . I write these things to you who believe in the name of the
Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.

John 3:36 indicates that people lacking eternal life, do not believe in Christ.

John 6:47 indicates that people lacking eternal life are unbelievers.

John 5:24 indicates that people lacking eternal life are 1) not heeding Jesus'
message, 2) not trusting in God, 3) at risk of being condemned for their
sins, and 4) are quite dead on the hoof.

1John 5:13 indicates that people lacking eternal life do not believe in the
name of the Son of God.

There's more.

According to God's testimony, as an expert witness in all matters pertaining
to eternal life: people lacking it, also lack His son; viz: they are quite
christless.

†. 1John 5:11-12 . . This is what God has testified: He has given us eternal
life, and this life is in His son. So whoever has God's son has the life;
whoever does not have the life, does not have His son.

Christless sheep are not Jesus' sheep.

†. Rom 8:9 . . If anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not
belong to Christ.



"May I suggest this for securing your eternal life?"


This has been a chronic problem on just about every Christian forum that
I've visited online in the past 16 years. Nobody speaks with infallible
authority. Instead they chat, quarrel and debate with sophistry, suggestions,
theories, opinions, armchair theology, and guess-work.

I'm going to deliberately misquote the passage below. Watch for the
revision.

†. Mark 16:15. . And then he instructed them: Go into all the world and
share some ideas with everyone, everywhere.

No; he didn't say "share some ideas". He said preach the gospel.

The koiné Greek word for "preach" is kerusso (kay-roos'-so) which means:
to herald (as a public crier). When someone "suggests" a method for
securing eternal life; they're telling me they don't really know. That's not
heralding, no, that's bee-essing.

Why has preaching become so unpopular on Christian forums? Well; I'll tell
you why. Because preaching is typically construed as proselytizing; which is
100% banned on most Christian forums. In other words; the rules governing
most Christian forms online these days actually oppose Christ's wishes rather
than comply with them; and what really saddens me is that there are a number
of moderators out there wearing the Christian label enforcing those rules;
subsequently I've come to the conclusion that online Christian forums are
essentially enemy-held territory; in other words: a mission field.

Buen Camino
/

 

[musterion]

Christ - both on earth and through the apostle Paul - warned that there'd be many who name His name but who will end up in the Lake of Fire. Why? Two main reasons: either they refuse to believe what He said they're to believe, but try to be religious anyway, or they sincerely believe damning error that some man or institution of men taught them. Either way they're without excuse for God has made His Word available to all who want to know it.

You know we're living in dark times when even warning of the possibility of such damning deception is outlawed by professing Christians.

Let me add there are some truly Christlike forums where valid doctrinal discussions and even disputes are allowed with the only restrictions being those of common courtesy. The truth usually wins out on these forums for all to see, and that is a good thing...but in 10 years of visiting many of them and monitoring others, they're becoming rarer and rarer, making your dual description of enemy territory/mission fields very accurate.

Just remember though...the time will come (and pretty much HAS come) when they will NOT put up with sound doctrine. Those who try to preach it will be ignored, shunned or silenced in favor of the many who prefer to tickle ears and have their ears tickled.

And then, not long after, the end will come and we'll all finally learn forever what's what. I sooooooo long for that Day!

 

[This Vale Of Tears]

Christ - both on earth and through the apostle Paul - warned that there'd be many who name His name but who will end up in the Lake of Fire. Why? Two main reasons: either they refuse to believe what He said they're to believe, but try to be religious anyway, or they sincerely believe damning error that some man or institution of men taught them. Either way they're without excuse for God has made His Word available to all who want to know it.

You know we're living in dark times when even warning of the possibility of such damning deception is outlawed by professing Christians.

Let me add there are some truly Christlike forums where valid doctrinal discussions and even disputes are allowed with the only restrictions being those of common courtesy. The truth usually wins out on these forums for all to see, and that is a good thing...but in 10 years of visiting many of them and monitoring others, they're becoming rarer and rarer, making your dual description of enemy territory/mission fields very accurate.

Just remember though...the time will come (and pretty much HAS come) when they will NOT put up with sound doctrine. Those who try to preach it will be ignored, shunned or silenced in favor of the many who prefer to tickle ears and have their ears tickled.

And then, not long after, the end will come and we'll all finally learn forever what's what. I sooooooo long for that Day!

The Bible says repeatedly that men will be judged by their works whether they be good or evil. It doesn't bode well for Protestants who think entry into heaven is an exam that one takes and good works don't mean anything so they didn't do them. And in defense of this forum, its moderators and administrators, THIS is a "Christlike forum(s) where valid doctrinal discussions and even disputes are allowed with the only restrictions being those of common courtesy". You may not have meant to cast aspersions on this forum, but your statement did just that.

 

[John Zain]

The NT in English is plenty good enough for me with the indispensible help of the Holy Spirit.
God did not arrange for the Scriptures to be penned for people with above-average
intelligence, education, etc. (especially those with knowledge of Greek), that’s for sure!

The English is quite obvious to anyone who has no preconceived biases ...
“... whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him.” (Acts 10:35)
“... you know that everyone who practices righteousness is born of Him.” (1 John 2:29)
“... let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous” (1 John 3:7)
“... so now present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness.” (Romans 6:19)
and ...
“... (slaves) of obedience leading to righteousness?” (Romans 6:16)
However, it is nice when the Greek substantiates what I already know,
and what others refuse to accept ...

A male BAC has chosen to bless us with …

The Greek is in the present (continuous action) tense for the participle 'doing'.
So the meaning is that everyone who continues to do righteousness (i.e. righteous actions)
'has been born' (perfect tense).
The perfect tense 'represents a present state resulting from a past action' (John Wenham).

So the meaning of 1 John 2:29 is that Jesus is righteous and those who have been born of God will continue
to do righteousness. Thus, a born again person has the ability - given by God - to continue to live righteously.

It doesn't matter whether one goes to the Textus Receptus Greek text used for the KJV
or the Nestle-Aland/UBS Greek text for ESV, NIV, NRSV, etc,
the word is identical - poiōn in the Greek of 1 John 2:29.
The transliterated Greek word, poiōn, is a nominative, singular, masculine, present active participle of poieō.

Yes, it all boils down to the obvious ... death to OSAS!

We must be faithful to the end, or we cannot rightfully expect to be saved.

This fact is presented all throughout the NT ...
but OSASers ignore it, like they do many other warnings and threats.

 

[This Vale Of Tears]

The NT in English is plenty good enough for me with the indispensible help of the Holy Spirit.
God did not arrange for the Scriptures to be penned for people with above-average
intelligence, education, etc. (especially those with knowledge of Greek), that’s for sure!

The English is quite obvious to anyone who has no preconceived biases ...
“... whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him.” (Acts 10:35)
“... you know that everyone who practices righteousness is born of Him.” (1 John 2:29)
“... let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous” (1 John 3:7)
“... so now present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness.” (Romans 6:19)
and ...
“... (slaves) of obedience leading to righteousness?” (Romans 6:16)
However, it is nice when the Greek substantiates what I already know,
and what others refuse to accept ...

A male BAC has chosen to bless us with …

The Greek is in the present (continuous action) tense for the participle 'doing'.
So the meaning is that everyone who continues to do righteousness (i.e. righteous actions)
'has been born' (perfect tense).
The perfect tense 'represents a present state resulting from a past action' (John Wenham).

So the meaning of 1 John 2:29 is that Jesus is righteous and those who have been born of God will continue
to do righteousness. Thus, a born again person has the ability - given by God - to continue to live righteously.

It doesn't matter whether one goes to the Textus Receptus Greek text used for the KJV
or the Nestle-Aland/UBS Greek text for ESV, NIV, NRSV, etc,
the word is identical - poiōn in the Greek of 1 John 2:29.
The transliterated Greek word, poiōn, is a nominative, singular, masculine, present active participle of poieō.

Yes, it all boils down to the obvious ... death to OSAS!


This fact is presented all throughout the NT ...
but OSASers ignore it, like they do many other warnings and threats.

Good post. OSAS just like the "pretrib rapture" are doctrines that develop in areas of the world where the stakes aren't high, where people don't pay a dear price for their faith and persecutions aren't looming. The doctrine of cheap grace does not thrive where there is nothing cheap about standing for Christ. The persecuted Christians in China, the missionaries arrested in North Korea, the underground pastors who teach in huddled homes afraid that government officials will come kicking down their door, they don't have time for nonsense, for flights of fancy. They take heart in verses such as "be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life" (Rev 2:10) and entertain no notion that they can be saved if they go the easy road of capitulation and denying Christ. I do believe the day swiftly approaches where there will be no corner of the globe where Christians aren't daily persecuted for their faith. When that time comes, silly doctrines sired by the idleness of prosperity and easy times will be quickly abandoned.

 

[musterion]

The NT in English is plenty good enough for me with the indispensible help of the Holy Spirit.
God did not arrange for the Scriptures to be penned for people with above-average
intelligence, education, etc. (especially those with knowledge of Greek), that’s for sure!

The English is quite obvious to anyone who has no preconceived biases ...
“... whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him.” (Acts 10:35)
“... you know that everyone who practices righteousness is born of Him.” (1 John 2:29)
“... let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous” (1 John 3:7)
“... so now present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness.” (Romans 6:19)
and ...
“... (slaves) of obedience leading to righteousness?” (Romans 6:16)
However, it is nice when the Greek substantiates what I already know,
and what others refuse to accept ...

A male BAC has chosen to bless us with …

The Greek is in the present (continuous action) tense for the participle 'doing'.
So the meaning is that everyone who continues to do righteousness (i.e. righteous actions)
'has been born' (perfect tense).
The perfect tense 'represents a present state resulting from a past action' (John Wenham).

So the meaning of 1 John 2:29 is that Jesus is righteous and those who have been born of God will continue
to do righteousness. Thus, a born again person has the ability - given by God - to continue to live righteously.

It doesn't matter whether one goes to the Textus Receptus Greek text used for the KJV
or the Nestle-Aland/UBS Greek text for ESV, NIV, NRSV, etc,
the word is identical - poiōn in the Greek of 1 John 2:29.
The transliterated Greek word, poiōn, is a nominative, singular, masculine, present active participle of poieō.

Yes, it all boils down to the obvious ... death to OSAS!


This fact is presented all throughout the NT ...
but OSASers ignore it, like they do many other warnings and threats.

Good luck keeping yourself saved.

 

[williemac]

The topic of the thread is securing salvation, something I don't believe is possible. And all my posts have been on target. Why don't you take a reading comprehension course before you go on the attack so you stop embarrassing yourself?







You could at least be humble enough to admit the Bible seems to strongly support both positions, that we could lose our salvation and that it's secure. I think that being told we are to "work out your salvation with fear and trembling" doesn't read "work out your salvation with smug confidence and arrogance." It's appropriate, humble, and even worshipful to dread the day of judgment, knowing that we will stand before a holy God who will scrutinize our lives according to his perfect standard. "Fear and trembling" is well illustrated by the Hebrews huddling in their homes as the angel of death passed them over only because of the blood of the lamb painted on their doorposts. The Bible says of those who are saved that we are "scarcely saved". (1Peter 4:18)

For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame
For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

(Hebrews 6:4-8)

We must be faithful to the end, or we cannot rightfully expect to be saved.

I will give you the benefit of the fact that with so many people we engage with you cannot remember everything about every person. I am not in the OSAS camp FYI. But I am in the camp that at least recognizes the passage in Heb.6 that you just quoted. According to that passage if one were to fall away he is lost forever. The point we can grasp from that is that salvation is a one time gift. We know that those who have the Son have eternal life residing in them. For them, salvation is assured and is a done deal as long as they do not fall away.

But here is where the subject takes on many variations. The question is...just what does it take to fall away? For some, falling away is a matter of sinning. I do not agree. Sin cannot cause one to lose his salvation. We were never given everlasting life on the basis of our moral behavior. So how is it that it then becomes a requirement after the fact? The answer is that is cannot and does not become a requirement after the fact. What remaining faithful looks like, is not a matter of personal opinion. It has to comply with scripture and not contradict scripture.
It is ironic to me that you bring up the subject of humility. This is the platform that I have been standing on in regards to the qualification for life. God gives grace to the humble, resists the proud, and has designed the gift of life to be given in a way that no man can boast. So if our behavior comes into the arena for salvation, then so does the possibility for boasting. You (and others) cannot see that?

Remaining faithful therefore must look similar to what is required in the first place for everlasting life. It cannot take on a different personality as it were. For example, in the case of the Galatians, Paul harshly rebuked and corrected them for their willingness to take on a different participation than that which they began with. I can see from many of these subjects that the lesson has been lost in translation somehow with many believers. Having begun in the Spirit by faith are we now going to finish with performance mentality?

 

[Rach1370]

Good post. OSAS just like the "pretrib rapture" are doctrines that develop in areas of the world where the stakes aren't high, where people don't pay a dear price for their faith and persecutions aren't looming.

Hi Vale! I've noticed in this thread that you seem to have a problem with OSAS. I have to disagree and was hoping we could discuss it??
I see many bible verses as giving me certainty of my salvation. And every single one is pointing not to myself, but to Christ. Just as we are not 'good' enough to earn salvation, so too we cannot 'keep' it...not by ourselves. It's only Christ who can give, and keep, our souls, and he has promised to do so. Look at these verses:

For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified. (Romans 8:29-30, ESV)

God chose us before time began. I honestly cannot see him suddenly changing his mind and 'letting us go'....indeed, we are told he will not:

I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. I and the Father are one.” (John 10:28-30, ESV)

Note: it says "give them"....not 'will give them'....it is something done as soon as we believe in Christ. And what comes after that is even more important to this conversation....we are held in Christ's hand by his strength, and the strength of the Father. Nothing will snatch us away. Fairly strong language, don't you think?

Who shall bring any charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies. Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died—more than that, who was raised—who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword? (Romans 8:33-35, ESV)

Jesus is right now beside the Father interceding for us. Imagine that! As it says elsewhere in scripture...If Christ is for us, who can be against us? How on earth can something like us stumbling be enough for these assurances to suddenly cease?

he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that being justified by his grace we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life. (Titus 3:5-7, ESV)

Wow....some big, but wonderful ideas here! As we know, salvation does not come to us because we earned it or deserve it. We are not just undeserving of salvation, we are ill-deserving. But through God's grace and mercy, he extends it anyway. And now that we are justified, we walk the walk of sanctification with the help of Christ and The Spirit, and when we pass from this world we are glorified and welcomed into eternity is His presence. That is the hope we have now....we still live in sinful bodies, in a sinful world...but we have hope! We know this because Jesus told us! How can we believe less, hope for less, when Jesus and his disciples took such pains to spell out our salvation?? We go on, we do good works, we walk in righteousness....not because we HAVE to, but because we GET to! Jesus has taken all weight, all sin, all need away from us and left us to move and act simply because it is the best for others and for us...it shines Jesus' light on the world and brings us closer to Jesus himself! What better reason to do these things? How better to respond to the free gift we've been given? It certainly can't be by responding in fear...trying to do and achieve something the bible tells us we cannot do by ourselves, and that Christ has already done for us? That seems a little strange....

Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God. (Hebrews 12:1-2, ESV)

We are to act, yes...we are to do good works, put to death our sins on a daily basis, walk in righteousness....but we do it weight free. It has been paid and we are not working alone. We have the promised Spirit to help us 'perfect' our faith. That is our 'race', and we know, as we run it, that looking to Jesus, he will never let us fall beyond his grasp and intercession. That is assurance, that is joy. And I see it everywhere in scripture.

 

[Webers_Home]

Yes, it all boils down to the obvious ... death to OSAS!

The reason why that particular imprecation is utterly futile is very simple.
According to John 3:36, John 6:47, John 5:24, and 1John 5:13, believers
have eternal life; which, according to 1John 1:1-2, is a quality of life that's
impervious to time, death, decay, and the aging process. If that were not so,
then it would be possible to terminate God.

So then believers are impervious to the wages of sin.

†. Rom 6:23 . . The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life
in Christ Jesus our Lord.

"in Christ" is the place where you want to be because it is a zone of
existence wherein sin is powerless to kill.

†. Rom 8:1-2 . . There is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ
Jesus, because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free
from the law of sin and death.

Since there is "no condemnation" to those who are in Christ; then it
behooves us to get a handle on the meaning of "in Christ".

Well; it's very simple actually. If you can understand what it means to be in
Adam then you should be able to understand very easily what it means to be
in Christ. "in Adam" is your natural-born condition. In other words: just as you
were born in Adam via natural birth, so believers are born in Christ by means
of the supernatural birth about which Jesus spoke at John 3:3-8.

You know, if people would just dare to trust some of Jesus' simplest
statements, then they wouldn't be running around like an anti-OSAS chicken
with its head cut off. When Jesus says things like "never perish" (John
10:26) and "never be condemned for their sins" (John 5:24) I think it's
pretty safe to assume he means it; or otherwise language serves no useful
purpose.

BTW: Webster's defines "never" as: not ever, at no time, not in any degree
and/or not under any condition.

I would pronounce an imprecation upon the anti-OSAS headless fowls but that
would be redundant. You see: they're already dead because according to
John 5:24, death is the default condition of everybody lacking eternal life.

Buen Camino
/

 

[This Vale Of Tears]

Hi Vale! I've noticed in this thread that you seem to have a problem with OSAS. I have to disagree and was hoping we could discuss it??
I see many bible verses as giving me certainty of my salvation. And every single one is pointing not to myself, but to Christ. Just as we are not 'good' enough to earn salvation, so too we cannot 'keep' it...not by ourselves. It's only Christ who can give, and keep, our souls, and he has promised to do so. Look at these verses:

For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified. (Romans 8:29-30, ESV)

God chose us before time began. I honestly cannot see him suddenly changing his mind and 'letting us go'....indeed, we are told he will not:

I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. I and the Father are one.” (John 10:28-30, ESV)

Note: it says "give them"....not 'will give them'....it is something done as soon as we believe in Christ. And what comes after that is even more important to this conversation....we are held in Christ's hand by his strength, and the strength of the Father. Nothing will snatch us away. Fairly strong language, don't you think?

Who shall bring any charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies. Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died—more than that, who was raised—who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword? (Romans 8:33-35, ESV)

Jesus is right now beside the Father interceding for us. Imagine that! As it says elsewhere in scripture...If Christ is for us, who can be against us? How on earth can something like us stumbling be enough for these assurances to suddenly cease?

he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that being justified by his grace we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life. (Titus 3:5-7, ESV)

Wow....some big, but wonderful ideas here! As we know, salvation does not come to us because we earned it or deserve it. We are not just undeserving of salvation, we are ill-deserving. But through God's grace and mercy, he extends it anyway. And now that we are justified, we walk the walk of sanctification with the help of Christ and The Spirit, and when we pass from this world we are glorified and welcomed into eternity is His presence. That is the hope we have now....we still live in sinful bodies, in a sinful world...but we have hope! We know this because Jesus told us! How can we believe less, hope for less, when Jesus and his disciples took such pains to spell out our salvation?? We go on, we do good works, we walk in righteousness....not because we HAVE to, but because we GET to! Jesus has taken all weight, all sin, all need away from us and left us to move and act simply because it is the best for others and for us...it shines Jesus' light on the world and brings us closer to Jesus himself! What better reason to do these things? How better to respond to the free gift we've been given? It certainly can't be by responding in fear...trying to do and achieve something the bible tells us we cannot do by ourselves, and that Christ has already done for us? That seems a little strange....

Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God. (Hebrews 12:1-2, ESV)
We are to act, yes...we are to do good works, put to death our sins on a daily basis, walk in righteousness....but we do it weight free. It has been paid and we are not working alone. We have the promised Spirit to help us 'perfect' our faith. That is our 'race', and we know, as we run it, that looking to Jesus, he will never let us fall beyond his grasp and intercession. That is assurance, that is joy. And I see it everywhere in scripture.

Greetings Rach,

I've been through this over and over as I'm sure you have too. Of course we could trade Bible verses and I already provided verses that indicate we are expected to endure in the faith until the end. I'm very familiar with the Bible and the passages used to defend OSAS, so nothing being presented here is unfamiliar to me. Each passage you present, when scrutinized closely, does not meet the standard of proof needed to positively verify the claims of OSAS. Even the verses that talk about nothing being able to separate us from God, nothing being able to snatch us out of God's hand, etc, do not deal with the issue of free will or compel the reader to understand that free will has been overridden. But even as I read the verses you provide and those provided by other OSAS defenders, I do see how somebody of the belief that salvation cannot be lost or forfeited can see substantiation for those beliefs in those passages.

I'll give you two examples of this. The Romans 8:29,30 passage you provided, the "golden chain of salvation" is looked at by Calvinists as affirming all 5 points of their system of belief. Reading the passage in light of what I know Calvinists believe, I can see all elements of TULIP represented. It's a slam dunk to them. Another example is Hebrews 12:1 which is looked upon by myself and fellow Catholics as affirming our belief in the communion of saints, that the saints of God are not separated by death and play an active role of intercession among those of us still running the race. I'm almost certain you don't see that when you read this verse, but I'm trying to make a larger point here. There's a certain futility that sets in when certain schools of theological belief draw strong support from scripture using a prescribed exegetical method. And then opposing schools of belief draw equally robust support for their belief, and that's certainly what occurs in the epic battle between those who say salvation cannot be lost and those who say it can. So where do we go?

Where I go is to look at larger principles that govern the entire debate, in particular God's view on free will. This issue is so foundational in defining God's relationship with man that it goes all the way back to the Garden of Eden. Why was it that God, after situating Adam and his wife Eve in a perfect and blissful place, put a tree in it with fruit they were forbidden to eat? Logically its preferable to have Adam and Eve secure in unending contentedness than to introduce the option of forfeiting paradise and bringing death, suffering, and futility into the world. But God wanted to be chosen when there was an alternative to be chosen as well. This iron principle is also at the heart of the salvation controversy because we are presented with the same choice, living or dying, heaven or hell, the love of God or being separated from God. The OSAS camp has the unenviable task of demonstrating that God, who set free will as the cornerstone of his relationship with man, removes that free will after people choose salvation, thus locking them into a decision to the point they cannot choose otherwise or change their mind. The assault on freewill ends up invariably with full blown Calvinism because if we lose free will after conversion, it must be logically deducted that we never had free will to begin with, that we were predestined for salvation or reprobation before we were ever born. And while Calvinists make an energetic feat of denying that they've negated freewill, the entire body of belief militates against the foundational lesson from the Garden of Eden; that God want's to be chosen.

This is why when the Bible tells us, "be thou faithful to death and I will give thee a crown of life" (Rev 2:10) it does so with unflinching presumption that we remain creatures of free will and must choose to remain in relationship to God.