May I suggest this for securing your eternal life?

[Rach1370]

Greetings Rach,

I've been through this over and over as I'm sure you have too. Of course we could trade Bible verses and I already provided verses that indicate we are expected to endure in the faith until the end. I'm very familiar with the Bible and the passages used to defend OSAS, so nothing being presented here is unfamiliar to me. Each passage you present, when scrutinized closely, does not meet the standard of proof needed to positively verify the claims of OSAS. Even the verses that talk about nothing being able to separate us from God, nothing being able to snatch us out of God's hand, etc, do not deal with the issue of free will or compel the reader to understand that free will has been overridden. But even as I read the verses you provide and those provided by other OSAS defenders, I do see how somebody of the belief that salvation cannot be lost or forfeited can see substantiation for those beliefs in those passages.

Hey Vale! I see your point, of course...and it is a conundrum we see often when discussing faith. People are gifted in not only seeing passages say what they want them to say, but also in using them to defend what they want them to! It can be a frustrating merry-go-round with no real winners.
That being said, it shouldn't stop us from talking about our faith, and what we believe the bible says. I think one very great benefit of such discussions is that it makes us truly dig into the meanings of said passages, and helps us understand what our beliefs really are...rather than just parroting whatever school of thought we were brought up believing.
And so, in the effort of that, and still believing we can have an edifying (if disagreeing) conversation about this; I go on!

I'll give you two examples of this. The Romans 8:29,30 passage you provided, the "golden chain of salvation" is looked at by Calvinists as affirming all 5 points of their system of belief. Reading the passage in light of what I know Calvinists believe, I can see all elements of TULIP represented. It's a slam dunk to them. Another example is Hebrews 12:1 which is looked upon by myself and fellow Catholics as affirming our belief in the communion of saints, that the saints of God are not separated by death and play an active role of intercession among those of us still running the race. I'm almost certain you don't see that when you read this verse, but I'm trying to make a larger point here. There's a certain futility that sets in when certain schools of theological belief draw strong support from scripture using a prescribed exegetical method. And then opposing schools of belief draw equally robust support for their belief, and that's certainly what occurs in the epic battle between those who say salvation cannot be lost and those who say it can. So where do we go?

I have never really identified myself as a "Calvinist"....mostly because I don't think most "Calvinists" today follow and believe what Calvin himself actually put forward. And also because Calvin himself was human, and therefore failible....we shouldn't follow people, but scripture and God.
That being said, I do think that scripture talks of us having assurance in our salvation. I see it saying it over and over, and quite clearly.
But, as you say, there is probably no point in putting down any of those scriptures, we've both seen them before and both remain believing as we do. So instead, let us talk of free will, the purpose for our lives and salvation.... very interesting topics!

Where I go is to look at larger principles that govern the entire debate, in particular God's view on free will. This issue is so foundational in defining God's relationship with man that it goes all the way back to the Garden of Eden. Why was it that God, after situating Adam and his wife Eve in a perfect and blissful place, put a tree in it with fruit they were forbidden to eat? Logically its preferable to have Adam and Eve secure in unending contentedness than to introduce the option of forfeiting paradise and bringing death, suffering, and futility into the world. But God wanted to be chosen when there was an alternative to be chosen as well. This iron principle is also at the heart of the salvation controversy because we are presented with the same choice, living or dying, heaven or hell, the love of God or being separated from God. The OSAS camp has the unenviable task of demonstrating that God, who set free will as the cornerstone of his relationship with man, removes that free will after people choose salvation, thus locking them into a decision to the point they cannot choose otherwise or change their mind. The assault on freewill ends up invariably with full blown Calvinism because if we lose free will after conversion, it must be logically deducted that we never had free will to begin with, that we were predestined for salvation or reprobation before we were ever born. And while Calvinists make an energetic feat of denying that they've negated freewill, the entire body of belief militates against the foundational lesson from the Garden of Eden; that God want's to be chosen.

You feel that before the discussion of OSAS can take place, we must first discuss the idea of free will. But for me, what needs to come before even that, is for us to have a understanding of 'why we are here' that is foundational for both.

You say that God wanted us to chose him...that is why he placed the tree of the knowledge of good and evil in the garden. And I have no doubt that yes...God indeed wants everyone to 'choose' him....or for them to come to know him, have a relationship with him.

But to me, that is not a deep enough understanding of why God even created us in the first place. Some claim it's because he longed for our company....patently untrue as we're told that as his Triune self God is complete, perfect and not needing a single thing. Do we then say that he cast some experiment, waiting to see how many would choose him and how many would sucumbed to the temptation of sinning and becoming their own gods? What else could be understood from him placing the tree in the garden, giving people free will and then waiting for Adam and Eve (and resulting generations) to choose him or rebel against him?

I see neither as a valid option, especially when held up against what we know of God from scripture. Why then, did God create mankind? If it wasn't for the company, and it wasn't to sit back and wait and see what we did once given life and awareness, then why?

Because of his glory.

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.
In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory. (Ephesians 1:3-14, ESV)

God is for his own glory. We see this every time we are given a glimpse of the heavenly angels....what are they always singing about? God's glory...his worthiness to recieve glory.
Our creation....more...our fall and then salvation....shows God's glory. It is an amazing thing the free gift of grace, given to unjust and rebellious children. God reached down to us while we were sinners and gave us so many things...things that this passage spells out for us. He chose us to be in him, long before he created the world, knowing that once he gave us a new heart we would praise him, gloryify him, rejoice in him...and know that the Spirit residing in us, guiding us...is our 'guarantee of our inheritance'.

So, you see...for me it's not so much a matter of debating OSAS or free will....to me it's deeper than that. It doesn't matter to me if I have free will or not. It's not about my chosing...it's about him choosing me. It's not about me keeping up 'my end of the bargin' so I can get into heaven...it's about what he has done for me...it's about me knowing that when I fail, he never does...that when I cannot keep the promises and plans I've made, that he always will. It's his strength, his plan, his will....it has to be....that way when all is said and done, the glory is all his...none mine. I don't want any, I'm fully aware of how undeserving I am. I cling to his promises and give him glory....and that's how I know I will be saved, becuase it's on perfect sholders that I am carried.

This is why when the Bible tells us, "be thou faithful to death and I will give thee a crown of life" (Rev 2:10) it does so with unflinching presumption that we remain creatures of free will and must choose to remain in relationship to God.

I feel I should add, just for clarification: believing as I do above, I am not one of these people who then claim "let go and let God"....in another words....I can act, say and do as I chose, because I know I'm saved and can't loose my salvation. I believe people who stand behind that creed are not really saved.
For me, believing as I do, then I MUST 'work out my salvation with fear and trembling'. God has given me everything, and for me, the unswerving imperative is to live for him. Not just live knowing that I can get away with sin, but actively striving to put that sin to death. How can I do anything less? My 'race', my walk of sanctification, is to shine God's light to all and to grow closer to Jesus day by day.
The difference, as I see it...is that I'm not doing it desperately hoping to secure my salvation...I'm doing it out of joy and thankfulness...and how I see it, that is more glorifying to God.

 

[This Vale Of Tears]

Hey Vale! I see your point, of course...and it is a conundrum we see often when discussing faith. People are gifted in not only seeing passages say what they want them to say, but also in using them to defend what they want them to! It can be a frustrating merry-go-round with no real winners.
That being said, it shouldn't stop us from talking about our faith, and what we believe the bible says. I think one very great benefit of such discussions is that it makes us truly dig into the meanings of said passages, and helps us understand what our beliefs really are...rather than just parroting whatever school of thought we were brought up believing.
And so, in the effort of that, and still believing we can have an edifying (if disagreeing) conversation about this; I go on!


Wow, we are giving each other some thorough responses! I don't blame anyone for defending what they believe to be true. I was raised with both Protestant and Catholic influences in my life, but was compelled to swing entirely to the Catholic side with such conviction as to last the rest of my life. As such I don't begrudge people their convictions and intransigent and deeply held beliefs.


I have never really identified myself as a "Calvinist"....mostly because I don't think most "Calvinists" today follow and believe what Calvin himself actually put forward. And also because Calvin himself was human, and therefore failible....we shouldn't follow people, but scripture and God.
That being said, I do think that scripture talks of us having assurance in our salvation. I see it saying it over and over, and quite clearly.
But, as you say, there is probably no point in putting down any of those scriptures, we've both seen them before and both remain believing as we do. So instead, let us talk of free will, the purpose for our lives and salvation.... very interesting topics!


You feel that before the discussion of OSAS can take place, we must first discuss the idea of free will. But for me, what needs to come before even that, is for us to have a understanding of 'why we are here' that is foundational for both.

You say that God wanted us to chose him...that is why he placed the tree of the knowledge of good and evil in the garden. And I have no doubt that yes...God indeed wants everyone to 'choose' him....or for them to come to know him, have a relationship with him.

But to me, that is not a deep enough understanding of why God even created us in the first place. Some claim it's because he longed for our company....patently untrue as we're told that as his Triune self God is complete, perfect and not needing a single thing. Do we then say that he cast some experiment, waiting to see how many would choose him and how many would sucumbed to the temptation of sinning and becoming their own gods? What else could be understood from him placing the tree in the garden, giving people free will and then waiting for Adam and Eve (and resulting generations) to choose him or rebel against him?

On this I come down firmly on the side of God existing eternally in pluperfect sufficiency, in no way wanting. We agree on this.

I see neither as a valid option, especially when held up against what we know of God from scripture. Why then, did God create mankind? If it wasn't for the company, and it wasn't to sit back and wait and see what we did once given life and awareness, then why?

Because of his glory.

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.
In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory. (Ephesians 1:3-14, ESV)

God is for his own glory. We see this every time we are given a glimpse of the heavenly angels....what are they always singing about? God's glory...his worthiness to recieve glory.
Our creation....more...our fall and then salvation....shows God's glory. It is an amazing thing the free gift of grace, given to unjust and rebellious children. God reached down to us while we were sinners and gave us so many things...things that this passage spells out for us. He chose us to be in him, long before he created the world, knowing that once he gave us a new heart we would praise him, gloryify him, rejoice in him...and know that the Spirit residing in us, guiding us...is our 'guarantee of our inheritance'.

God's glory was not lacking in any way before creation, but the drama of creation could only add to the glory of God. But I find the simple answer is the best when asked why did God create us. That simple answer is, because he was pleased to do so. Sometimes we have to restrain ourselves as finite creatures and leave a mystery be, knowing that we cannot plumb the depths of the divine intellect that is so far above our thinking that even the foolishness of God exceeds the wisdom of man by infinite measure. It's not that your answer is wrong, it's that it's better to say with humility that we don't really know for sure.

So, you see...for me it's not so much a matter of debating OSAS or free will....to me it's deeper than that. It doesn't matter to me if I have free will or not. It's not about my chosing...it's about him choosing me. It's not about me keeping up 'my end of the bargin' so I can get into heaven...it's about what he has done for me...it's about me knowing that when I fail, he never does...that when I cannot keep the promises and plans I've made, that he always will. It's his strength, his plan, his will....it has to be....that way when all is said and done, the glory is all his...none mine. I don't want any, I'm fully aware of how undeserving I am. I cling to his promises and give him glory....and that's how I know I will be saved, becuase it's on perfect sholders that I am carried.

But the problem with that is we do have an end of the bargain spelled out numerous times in scripture and all predicated on the notion that we have freewill both before and after the transaction of salvation. It gets prickly here because even our ability to choose God draws from a resource foreign to ourselves, for apart from God's special intervention, we cannot choose him. No doubt you see how this begins to feed into Calvinism. So we claim no credit and deem ourselves unprofitable servants who did our duty but can in no way redeem ourselves the debt that was paid for us. In this God is glorified that by his grace we chose him. Where I'm at sharp variance with Calvinists is the thinking that God only chose a few and dispensed said grace to select beneficiaries; consigning by default all others to inescapable perdition. I think you agree with me on this. The reason I keep bringing up Calvinism is because OSAS is the first swing of the ax upon free will and Calvinism fells the entire tree.


I feel I should add, just for clarification: believing as I do above, I am not one of these people who then claim "let go and let God"....in another words....I can act, say and do as I chose, because I know I'm saved and can't loose my salvation. I believe people who stand behind that creed are not really saved.
For me, believing as I do, then I MUST 'work out my salvation with fear and trembling'. God has given me everything, and for me, the unswerving imperative is to live for him. Not just live knowing that I can get away with sin, but actively striving to put that sin to death. How can I do anything less? My 'race', my walk of sanctification, is to shine God's light to all and to grow closer to Jesus day by day.
The difference, as I see it...is that I'm not doing it desperately hoping to secure my salvation...I'm doing it out of joy and thankfulness...and how I see it, that is more glorifying to God.

Here's where I think we differ in view while not intentionally distorting the other's viewpoint. I don't believe that OSAS Christians believe in licentiousness, but I do believe that OSAS views salvation as an insurance policy by which both parties, particularly the insurer, is held to a contract that is abundantly enforceable. Once signed, the client is assured of fulfillment of the terms. Seeking out such insouciance is tempting, but at the heart of it, I believe, is a lack of faith in God's perfect justice. For fear of an uncertain outcome, we want to bind God's sovereign ruling to our favor and do so well in advance of the day of judgment. We seek escape from the dread we ought to have anticipating the day when we stand before a perfect and holy God who will dispense righteous judgment on all mankind. Rather than seek to escape it, we ought to be embracing it out of sheer humility, leaving that decision completely up to God and seeking no guarantees. This isn't being afraid of damnation, but being humble enough to confess we can't secure anything for ourselves and trust our eternal souls into the hand of God. This is what it means to fear God, not being afraid of God, but coming to terms with our puniness, our frailty, and the limits of our understanding before a magnificent and omniscient God.

If I take a while to respond, it's because I'm a truck driver and soon will be getting back on the road.

Pax Christi.

I will give you the benefit of the fact that with so many people we engage with you cannot remember everything about every person. I am not in the OSAS camp FYI. But I am in the camp that at least recognizes the passage in Heb.6 that you just quoted. According to that passage if one were to fall away he is lost forever. The point we can grasp from that is that salvation is a one time gift. We know that those who have the Son have eternal life residing in them. For them, salvation is assured and is a done deal as long as they do not fall away.

But here is where the subject takes on many variations. The question is...just what does it take to fall away? For some, falling away is a matter of sinning. I do not agree. Sin cannot cause one to lose his salvation. We were never given everlasting life on the basis of our moral behavior. So how is it that it then becomes a requirement after the fact? The answer is that is cannot and does not become a requirement after the fact. What remaining faithful looks like, is not a matter of personal opinion. It has to comply with scripture and not contradict scripture.
It is ironic to me that you bring up the subject of humility. This is the platform that I have been standing on in regards to the qualification for life. God gives grace to the humble, resists the proud, and has designed the gift of life to be given in a way that no man can boast. So if our behavior comes into the arena for salvation, then so does the possibility for boasting. You (and others) cannot see that?

Remaining faithful therefore must look similar to what is required in the first place for everlasting life. It cannot take on a different personality as it were. For example, in the case of the Galatians, Paul harshly rebuked and corrected them for their willingness to take on a different participation than that which they began with. I can see from many of these subjects that the lesson has been lost in translation somehow with many believers. Having begun in the Spirit by faith are we now going to finish with performance mentality?

I like your thinking and I apologize that I didn't understand your viewpoint. Exegetical discipline demands we recognize what Hebrews meant by "falling away" in context. The Jewish audience was tempted to return to observation of the law to gain God's favor and salvation which entirely contradicts the message of the cross. The passage in chapter 6 is saying that reverting to the law is stepping back to a time when Christ was not crucified for sinners and giving preference to an imperfect and insufficient system that could not atone for sins or reconcile us to God. However, even in its proper context, the conclusion that a person can indeed forfeit salvation isn't lost, but rather reinforced.

 

[Rach1370]

Vale said:

God's glory was not lacking in any way before creation, but the drama of creation could only add to the glory of God. But I find the simple answer is the best when asked why did God create us. That simple answer is, because he was pleased to do so. Sometimes we have to restrain ourselves as finite creatures and leave a mystery be, knowing that we cannot plumb the depths of the divine intellect that is so far above our thinking that even the foolishness of God exceeds the wisdom of man by infinite measure. It's not that your answer is wrong, it's that it's better to say with humility that we don't really know for sure.

Well, I disagree that we can't really know for sure. The passage I quoted above (Eph 1:3-14) tells us outright that God is for his own glory....that "he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace".
That "In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory.
And finally: "when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory."

That's three times Paul says it in one passage. So I think that perhaps the correct response is more: we can never know the full extent of God's plans and purposes, but we can know what he chooses to tell us. And what I read in Ephesians 1 is that God predestined us before he even created us...chose to bring us to salvation to showcase his glory, and to recieve just praise for his grace.

But the problem with that is we do have an end of the bargain spelled out numerous times in scripture and all predicated on the notion that we have freewill both before and after the transaction of salvation. It gets prickly here because even our ability to choose God draws from a resource foreign to ourselves, for apart from God's special intervention, we cannot choose him. No doubt you see how this begins to feed into Calvinism. So we claim no credit and deem ourselves unprofitable servants who did our duty but can in no way redeem ourselves the debt that was paid for us. In this God is glorified that by his grace we chose him. Where I'm at sharp variance with Calvinists is the thinking that God only chose a few and dispensed said grace to select beneficiaries; consigning by default all others to inescapable perdition. I think you agree with me on this. The reason I keep bringing up Calvinism is because OSAS is the first swing of the ax upon free will and Calvinism fells the entire tree.

This is a good point and a very important one to discuss. I think too many people cannot distinguish between the idea of 'free will'...or lack there of...and having no will, personality, drive or purpose at all. For all intents and purpose, being mechanical and our thoughts and actions having no bearing on ourselves, others, or history and life in general.
Clearly this is not the case. Our actions do have consequences, we do have choices...millions of them. But does that necessarily mean that our status of elect or not, was chosen solely by our own will? You've already pointed out that we, by ourselves, cannot seek God out, and the bible confirms that.
So what are we to make of the seeming contradictions? Well....I don't believe they are. Firstly, we must trust in what scripture says: that man is fallen and cannot even seek, let alone find God by himself. We must trust in scripture when it tells us that God 'predestined' us...'chose us'....'adopted us'. HE did that, not us.
But as far as our choices....we can see...daily...that within this earthly realm, and amongst those of flesh and blood, we indeed have free will and choices. Should we choose poorly...sinfully...then it results in pain, confusion and heartbreak. When we daily take up our cross and choose guided by the Spirit...that voice within guiding us towards making the correct choice in the circumstances, then we find edification, unity and praise.
So you see, I do not believe it is, or scripture calls it to be, an either/or situation. God predestined us for salvation, but we daily make choices that see cause and effect happening in our lives.....

Here's where I think we differ in view while not intentionally distorting the other's viewpoint. I don't believe that OSAS Christians believe in licentiousness, but I do believe that OSAS views salvation as an insurance policy by which both parties, particularly the insurer, is held to a contract that is abundantly enforceable. Once signed, the client is assured of fulfillment of the terms. Seeking out such insouciance is tempting, but at the heart of it, I believe, is a lack of faith in God's perfect justice. For fear of an uncertain outcome, we want to bind God's sovereign ruling to our favor and do so well in advance of the day of judgment. We seek escape from the dread we ought to have anticipating the day when we stand before a perfect and holy God who will dispense righteous judgment on all mankind. Rather than seek to escape it, we ought to be embracing it out of sheer humility, leaving that decision completely up to God and seeking no guarantees. This isn't being afraid of damnation, but being humble enough to confess we can't secure anything for ourselves and trust our eternal souls into the hand of God. This is what it means to fear God, not being afraid of God, but coming to terms with our puniness, our frailty, and the limits of our understanding before a magnificent and omniscient God.

If I take a while to respond, it's because I'm a truck driver and soon will be getting back on the road.

Pax Christi.

I'm sorry, but I honestly can't see how you can think that! I'm shaking my head in wonderment! You're right...clearly we see things differently! For me, OSAS isn't any of the things you just said above. I'm not feeling like you're attacking me, by the way; you're just describing it like you see it, as I am.
Sometimes I wonder....I wonder if perhaps God has deliberately spoken to people differently. Clearly people are all different...not only are their life experiences different, but we have different ways of thinking (I have two autistic people in my family...trust me, they think differently! Wonderfully, but differently!). Does God choose to speak to us in ways that will touch and move us best? Is that why when someone sees something being said so clearly in scripture...others cannot see it? Maybe, maybe not....maybe God is only after the honest seeking that goes on in such conversations. I don't know. What I do know is that you seem to genuinely love God, as do I...and as we touched on some posts back....he is indeed both author and perfector of our faith, so I know we will both continue to grow and learn as he would lead us.
Thanks for the honest chat!

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

Funny thing is I never worry about my righteousness .... because it comes thru Christ .... thank God !!!!!!!!!!

 

[musterion]

Gentlemen,

There's a much bigger issue here than whether complete salvation in Christ can be had in this life but then, somehow, lost, or never obtained in this life. Though that is a vastly important issue, I assure you it is NOT the one on which we should focus. OSAS is only subsidiary to it.

The vital issue here is, as I've said elsewhere, one that strikes at the very heart of our concept of God's character. How we decide on this issue, as with others, will subtly color our own views of God whether we realize it or not.

One person here, whom I choose to ignore for his less than direct answers on other threads but whose replies show up when quoted by others, actually said for the first time in my 10 years of watching these discussions, that the Bible DOES appear to teach that salvation CAN be lost but it also appears to teach that it CANNOT.

YES! Finally someone else sees it and says it! I tell you the truth, this is a 10 year first for me for the Bible certainly DOES seem to teach both!

This leads us either to a HUGE, TERRIFYING problem...that the Word of God flatly contradicts itself and so is untrustworthy if not worthless...or it will lead us to absolute freedom.

We all could argue until Christ returns about this verse or that verse, playing tit for tat and getting nowhere. Would that honor the God we all believe exists? No. What it WOULD do is say that His Word - which He has exalted above His very name - is the source of confusion because it seems to present two flatly contradictory propositions at the same time and, often, in the same Scriptural places: that salvation can and cannot be lost.

What is the answer, friends? What shall we do? Keep playing tit for tat like children in a sandbox, getting nowhere with our pointless Bible verse one-upmanship?

Or do we start from scratch and consider possibilities that most of us are unaware of that WILL reconcile the seeming contradiction on whether salvation can or cannot be lost?

Because there IS an answer and a reconciliation to that problem which, in fact, does not even exist. There is no contradiction...the problem is in how most of us have been raised to interpret the Bible.

I once struggled greatly with this very issue until someone shared light which honestly never occurred to me and would never had entered my mind had God not graced me with a friend willing to patiently show me what I'd never seen before. And I've not been the same since.

If we agree to do this, I promise you we can have a fruitful discussion that does not stray outside on the Scriptures in any way...it's all right there, if we'd only see it. No hidden Bible codes, no wacky translations, none of that. Every one of your own Bibles has the key, right now.

Either that, or we continue to debase the reputation of God by never admitting the plain truth: He repeatedly promises unconditionally secure salvation yet, at the same time, leaves it wide open to be lost. SOMEONE here is in grave error on the point, but the Word itself is not at fault.

Let us be men to discuss it rationally, to the honor of God and His Christ. What say ye?

 

[Rach1370]

Well, I suppose we should say: spit it out!

None of us can respond until we hear what you have to say. I realise I'm a new comer to this conversation, but I'm willing and open to have dialogue without narkiness. I will err on the side of biblical confirmation, so if I can't see what you say is backed up by scripture, I may not agree with you...but I'm very happy to listen to what you say and consider it carefully!

 

[williemac]

In the meantime I can share some of my understanding on this. In 2Cor.5:19,20, we see that God has reconciled mankind from His side and perspective. But He pleads with men to respond. Scripture therefore teaches that though everlasting life has become a free gift, given by grace, it requires something from the human in order for it to be received. Just what that something is, is where many Christians part ways.

The gospel carries information in it about our condition. It, with the help of the law, reveals that we are unable to achieve, attain, or produce the righteousness that is required for life to be granted. But the good news part is that righteousness and life can be received by faith. This is where the instincts that have been embedded into our humanity must be understood and overcome. We are taught in society that we must earn things. Things such as respect, acceptance, love, even our wages. Therefore the natural man has a tendency to apply this into the spiritual things. And even though many have the necessary humility to receive God's grace, the temptations are relentless to get us to revert back to the old understanding of earning things. But the reality is that all things that come to us from God are freely given (Rom.8:32..NKJ)

This issue is a reflection of the original offense of Lucifer, who rejected his created role and purpose and determined to take on the role of God, an impossible goal. Similarly, when men attempt to do what only God can do, they fall short. Only God can produce life and righteousness. He is the source. We are often tempted to participate in the production of them. It takes humility to let go and take these things as a free gift. Thus God gives grace to the humble.

There are basically two things that God will not tolerate from His creation. One is the attempt to be God. (there is only One God). The other is the refusal to bear fruit. Inability and refusal are not the same thing, BTW. The man with only one talent could have put it in the bank and let it gain interest. But instead he deliberately refused to let it bear any fruit by digging a hole and burying it.

The question is whether or not a born again person can commit these offenses. I personally feel that God would not have granted life to one who He knows is an offender in either case.

So this results in the only other possible way a believer can lose his life. That is if he deliberately gives back the free gift that was given. From God's perspective, He has promised that He would not judge a believer (John5:24) who has received life. Therefore if one loses his life that he once gained freely, it cannot be the result of having been afterward judged by God.

This is where we get into contradictions. Those who feel that eternal life can be lost very commonly assume that it is the result of being judged and rejected or condemned by God. This is a false assumption. God has given assurances to us that from His perspective, life is a done deal. And this is why I oppose the suggestions that sin can result in the loss of eternal life. It is a denial of what was accomplished at Calvary.

The truth is that those who never had eternal life will be judged for their sin. But those who have eternal life will never be judged by their sin.

Unfortunately, those who insist that eternal life can be lost, usually put these truths aside and go back into a works justification. This is how we get into contradiction.

 

[John Zain]

I see God's free gift of grace-faith-salvation (Eph 2:8-9),
which is given at the time one is born again,
is merely the starting point for the true Christian.

After that, he/she can fall from grace.

Someone who believes in OSAS, might like to explain ...
why there are so many lies in the new covenant
about the possibility of a BAC "losing" his/her salvation.

Doesn't this put a rather sharp point on it?

 

[musterion]

Well, I suppose we should say: spit it out!

None of us can respond until we hear what you have to say. I realise I'm a new comer to this conversation, but I'm willing and open to have dialogue without narkiness. I will err on the side of biblical confirmation, so if I can't see what you say is backed up by scripture, I may not agree with you...but I'm very happy to listen to what you say and consider it carefully!

Then I'll get right to it by asking one question...I aim it at you only because you asked but it's for everyone who may be interested in this discussion.

Q. Do you believe the entire Bible - cover to cover - is intended by God to be equally applied to the lives of believers today?

Someone who believes in OSAS, might like to explain ...
why there are so many lies in the new covenant
about the possibility of a BAC "losing" his/her salvation.

Doesn't this put a rather sharp point on it?

I doubt you'll find a stronger defender of UESIC (Unconditional Eternal Security in Christ) on this board than myself. Please have a list prepared to post of THE strongest anti-OSAS verses you know. That part of this discussion will probably be coming up shortly, so stay tuned. Don't post them yet, please, just keep them handy. You'll know when it's time for them.

 

[Rach1370]

Then I'll get right to it by asking one question...I aim it at you only because you asked but it's for everyone who may be interested in this discussion.

Q. Do you believe the entire Bible - cover to cover - is intended by God to be equally applied to the lives of believers today?

Yes, I do. Certain passages may not be addressed to us, but still hold wisdom for us.
But I should maybe clarify a bit more. A lot of people will say that the bible must be taken literally...and those who do not abuse and misunderstand God's word. I believe that every single word in the bible is true and meant for all Christians; but it must be read as intended. Poetry must be read as poetry, historical texts as history, prophetic texts as prophecy....and so on. Also we need to use easy to understand passages to help us interpret the difficult texts.
I guess what I'm saying is that just because someone pulls out a single verse that seems to say something, does not mean I believe it. Everything needs to be put into context...context of the passage itself, the book, the format of writing. That sort of thing.
But back to your question...yes, I do indeed feel that the bible is intended for those of us today.

 

[John Zain]

Lotsa talk lately about the BAC's righteousness, or lack thereof.

“IF we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins
and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.” (1 John 1:9)

Who would like to be the first to call into question old John's sanity?

He is saying a BAC's righteousness is conditional ...
upon whether he actually confesses (repents) of his sins, or not.

Not exactly a free-for-all ... but it’s a free choice for all.

At least God is happy ... it takes the responsibilty off Him.

What do you expect? ... He can't make anyone do anything anyway.
Or, should I say? ... He chooses not to.

Man's free will ... remains King of the hill ... Hey, that rhymes!

 

[williemac]

Lotsa talk lately about the BAC's righteousness, or lack thereof.

“IF we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins
and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.” (1 John 1:9)

Who would like to be the first to call into question old John's sanity?

He is saying a BAC's righteousness is conditional ...
upon whether he actually confesses (repents) of his sins, or not.

Not exactly a free-for-all ... but it’s a free choice for all.

At least God is happy ... it takes the responsibilty off Him.

What do you expect? ... He can't make anyone do anything anyway.
Or, should I say? ... He chooses not to.

Man's free will ... remains King of the hill ... Hey, that rhymes!

This reply is exactly what I expect. It demonstrates the typical misunderstanding of the letter that John wrote.

Historically, there was a common worldly doctrine at that time called gnosticism. Most scholars agree that John addressed and corrected some of the errant thinking of the day. One such error is also found in some circles today, which is that sin does not really exist.

When John said " if we say we have no sin we make God a liar" (1John 1:8), he was not talking about "we" believers. He was speaking of "we" humans. He was doing what Paul did in Rom.10:9. Paul said there, that " if you confess with you mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead...you will be saved" HOWEVER...Paul was writing to they who were already believers. He wasn't instructing them about what they needed to do, since they had already done it, but rather teaching them a principle about salvation.

The same goes for John. He was teaching them a principle for their understanding. His point is that which is part and parcel of the gospel. We (humans) are sinners in need of a Savior. The way to getting one's sins forgiven is to first acknowledge them and confess to God that you have sin. This is the act of humility that He requires. He gives grace to the humble. It is the proud who say " I have no sin".

1John 1:9 is so badly misused that it is a wonder that people stay sane. They go about confessing sin over and over in their lives in order to get forgiven over and over in their lives. Instead, they do not understand that 1John 1:9 is a one-time event that brings about the new birth on one's life. Tell me, everyone...do you think for a moment that the new birth is a repeated event? Does it happen over and over?

So what happens if a believer does sin? Just read the next verse. John states that we ought not to sin, but if we do sin we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous (1John2:1). This first verse in the second chapter is what happens to the believer who sins. He remains forgiven.

We ARE the righteousness of God in Christ. Not because we say we are but because the bible says we are. We HAVE a new man in us which WAS created according to God in true righteousness and holiness (EPH. 4:24)

The righteousness that we have is not conditional to continual confession or repentance from sin. It is conditional to continual humility. Just like in Abraham's case, If our justification for life is a result of our own effort or works, we have something of which to boast... BUT NOT BEFORE GOD (Rom.4:2) But what does the scripture say? (vs.3).."Abraham believed God and it was accounted to him as righteousness". What did he believe? The promise!

Make no mistake, it is a self righteous thing to reject the notion that life could possibly be a free gift.

As well, make no mistake about this kind of reply. It is often written off as a justification or an excuse for a sloppy or sinful lifestyle. That is another topic. It does not fall under the subject of keeping our good standing for everlasting life. Our Lord knows how to chasten and correct those whom He loves. He doesn't have to threaten them with rejection. If He did that, He would have lied in John 5:24. There, He assured us that those who are of faith in God will NOT come under judgment (to condemnation), but rather have passed from death to life. He made no mention of grovelling over and over again for forgiveness. The cross is a perpetual sacrifice for sin. The new birth is a one time event. According to Heb.6:1-6, it is impossible to achieve it more than one time.

And as an FYI, Heb.6:1 mentions repentance from dead works. This is not sin. This is works that cannot produce life. A little advice for some to whom it applies...." stop trying to earn your way into the kingdom of God" It is freely given (Rom.8:32..NKJ), as is all things.

 

[Webers_Home]

.
†. Matt 19:16 . . A man came up to Jesus and asked: Teacher, what good
thing must I do to get eternal life?

According to John 3:34; John 8:26-28, John 12:49-50, and John 14:10,
Jesus spoke for God. So then, here it is from the horse's mouth.

†. Matt 19:17 . . If you want to enter life, obey the commandments.

The interview took place prior to the introduction of Christianity. So God's
response to that man wasn't Christ's way to eternal life: it was Moses' way.

†. Matt 19:18 . .Which ones? the man inquired.

(chuckle) Apparently that man was under the impression that some of the
more than 400 commandments comprising Israel's covenanted law are
negligible; but according to Deut 27:26 and Jas 2:10, none are negligible.

Anyway, here, speaking for God, was Jesus' answer.

†. Matt 19:18-19 . . Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal,
do not give false testimony, honor your father and mother, and love your
neighbor as yourself.

God took the man right back to the very foundation of Israel's covenanted
relationship with Himself by having Jesus quote some of the original ten
commandments located in the 20th chapter of Exodus. The commandment
to love your neighbor as yourself is located further up at Lev 19:18.

According to the pro-OSAS side of the aisle; God's answer was misleading;
but was it? No, according to Paul; it was 100% reliable.

†. Rom 2:6-11 . . God will give to each person according to what he has
done. To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and
immortality, He will give eternal life. But for those who are self-seeking
and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger.
There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil:
first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; but glory, honor and peace for
everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. For God
does not show favoritism.

One Sunday morning in church, a bass singer sitting next to me in the
choir loft complained: "The teacher in class today said that according to
John 3:14-15 Christ's crucifixion is the way to eternal life but it appears
to me from Rom 2:6-11 that one's performance is the way. Are there two
ways?"

Well; had I been teacher in the bass singer's Sunday school class; I
would have assured him that yes: there really are two ways; viz: 1) Christ's
crucifixion, and 2) personal performance. (Some folks try to combine those
two ways to manufacture yet a third way-- a hybridized way --but that's
another story)

Personally, I do not recommend the "personal performance" way. You know
why? Because according to Rom 2:6-11 the key to success that way is
"persistence".

In other words; should someone choose the way of personal performance,
they will have to be on their game not just some of the time, nor even most
of the time; but rather, at all times because Webster's defines persist as:

1) to go on resolutely or stubbornly in spite of opposition, importunity, or
warning

2) to remain unchanged or fixed in a specified character, condition, or
position

3) to continue to exist esp. past a usual, expected, or normal time

In other words: in order to succeed in the way of personal performance; the
quality of your performance would have to be above and beyond; viz: 110%
flawless. Well; all I can say is: good luck with that because there is no safety
net for people who choose the way of personal performance. In other words:
failure is not an option. Like they say about dueling with pistols: There are
no second-place winners.

Buen Camino
/

 

[williemac]

.
†. Matt 19:16 . . A man came up to Jesus and asked: Teacher, what good
thing must I do to get eternal life?

According to John 3:34; John 8:26-28, John 12:49-50, and John 14:10,
Jesus spoke for God. So then, here it is from the horse's mouth.

†. Matt 19:17 . . If you want to enter life, obey the commandments.

The interview took place prior to the introduction of Christianity. So God's
response to that man wasn't Christ's way to eternal life: it was Moses' way.

†. Matt 19:18 . .Which ones? the man inquired.

(chuckle) Apparently that man was under the impression that some of the
more than 400 commandments comprising Israel's covenanted law are
negligible; but according to Deut 27:26 and Jas 2:10, none are negligible.

Anyway, here, speaking for God, was Jesus' answer.

†. Matt 19:18-19 . . Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal,
do not give false testimony, honor your father and mother, and love your
neighbor as yourself.

God took the man right back to the very foundation of Israel's covenanted
relationship with Himself by having Jesus quote some of the original ten
commandments located in the 20th chapter of Exodus. The commandment
to love your neighbor as yourself is located further up at Lev 19:18.

According to the pro-OSAS side of the aisle; God's answer was misleading;
but was it? No, according to Paul; it was 100% reliable.

†. Rom 2:6-11 . . God will give to each person according to what he has
done. To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and
immortality, He will give eternal life. But for those who are self-seeking
and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger.
There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil:
first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; but glory, honor and peace for
everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. For God
does not show favoritism.

One Sunday morning in church, a bass singer sitting next to me in the
choir loft complained: "The teacher in class today said that according to
John 3:14-15 Christ's crucifixion is the way to eternal life but it appears
to me from Rom 2:6-11 that one's performance is the way. Are there two
ways?"

Well; had I been teacher in the bass singer's Sunday school class; I
would have assured him that yes: there really are two ways; viz: 1) Christ's
crucifixion, and 2) personal performance. (Some folks try to combine those
two ways to manufacture yet a third way-- a hybridized way --but that's
another story)

Personally, I do not recommend the "personal performance" way. You know
why? Because according to Rom 2:6-11 the key to success that way is
"persistence".

In other words; should someone choose the way of personal performance,
they will have to be on their game not just some of the time, nor even most
of the time; but rather, at all times because Webster's defines persist as:

1) to go on resolutely or stubbornly in spite of opposition, importunity, or
warning

2) to remain unchanged or fixed in a specified character, condition, or
position

3) to continue to exist esp. past a usual, expected, or normal time

In other words: in order to succeed in the way of personal performance; the
quality of your performance would have to be above and beyond; viz: 110%
flawless. Well; all I can say is: good luck with that because there is no safety
net for people who choose the way of personal performance. In other words:
failure is not an option. Like they say about dueling with pistols: There are
no second-place winners.

Buen Camino
/

You hit the nail on the head. The misunderstanding that occurs is because many do not understand that in order to be justified through one's works and moral behavior, one must not fail on any one point. Jesus was not giving anyone any good news about performance (works, behavior, etc.) . He was using the law righteously, to confine the world under sin. It is only the sinner who needs forgiveness and mercy, through salvation. Therefore when a person asks what works he should do, the reply is always something waaayy out of reach for any man.

Rom.2:6-11 refers to just that. But God will not reward a good effort. Those who come under judgment for their works of law will ALL fall short. No one makes it in on that basis. One cannot stop and hang their doctrine on Rom.2. The letter continues on and clarifies that by the works of the law shall no man be justified. ( the abstinence of sin is a work of law). Paul's instructions to the believer in regards to works and behavior are not to determine or ensure their destiny.

As I keep on sharing Jesus' words in John 5:24, maybe some will finally see what it says; that those who are of faith in God will be exempt from the judgment that determines life or death. The judgment seat of Christ is not for the determination of eternal destiny. It is for the giving or removing of rewards. That is the only judgment awaiting the believer.

Blessings in Him, Howie

 

[musterion]

Yes, I do. Certain passages may not be addressed to us, but still hold wisdom for us.
But I should maybe clarify a bit more. A lot of people will say that the bible must be taken literally...and those who do not abuse and misunderstand God's word. I believe that every single word in the bible is true and meant for all Christians; but it must be read as intended. Poetry must be read as poetry, historical texts as history, prophetic texts as prophecy....and so on. Also we need to use easy to understand passages to help us interpret the difficult texts.
I guess what I'm saying is that just because someone pulls out a single verse that seems to say something, does not mean I believe it. Everything needs to be put into context...context of the passage itself, the book, the format of writing. That sort of thing.
But back to your question...yes, I do indeed feel that the bible is intended for those of us today.

There's a wise saying around my parts. I believe it and want to know what you think of it:

All of Scripture is FOR us but not all of Scripture is ABOUT us, nor is all of Scripture addressed TO us, nor is all of Scripture intended to be applied BY us.

Would you agree with that?

 

[John Zain]

In other words: in order to succeed in the way of personal performance;
the quality of your performance would have to be above and beyond;
viz: 110% flawless.

Please note 1 John 1:7-10 in the OP (i.e. post #1).

 

[Webers_Home]

.
I'm not going to offer a suggestion. Instead; I'm just going to come right
out and tell the forum how to obtain eternal life; and God forbid someone
should reject what I'm going to say because the consequences are very
severe. According to John 3:18, they'll be instantly condemned to hell-- no
delay, and no waiting period.

†. John 3:14-15 . . As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so
must the Son of Man be lifted up; that whoever believes may in Him have
eternal life.

Jesus related the purpose of his crucifixion to an incident recorded in the Old
Testament at Num 21:5-9 wherein Yhvh's people got to complaining about
the quality of the nourishment that God was providing them on their
wilderness journey. They didn't just grumble; no, they became activists and
mounted a protest against Moses and Aaron; angrily demanding a better
diet.

As a reprisal in retaliation for their insolence, God sent a horde of very
deadly vipers into the camp's midst. The snakes were extremely toxic and a
number of the people bitten died. So in their panic, the protesters lost
interest in complaining about the food, and began taking a serious interest in
just staying alive.

So Moses, under God's supervision, fabricated a model of the vipers and
hoisted it up on a pole where everyone could see it. All that a snakebite
victim had to do was just "look to" the model for a remedy and voila! they
were cured. And if they got bitten a second time? Well; as far as I know,
God never got around to taking His mojo off that model; ergo: it was good
for an unlimited number of snakebites.

But note: neither love, nor synagogue, nor charity, nor fasting,
commandments, nor sacrifices, nor self denial, nor tithing, nor morality, nor
piety, nor good works, nor anything else one might associate with salvation
would work; not even their religious affiliation. Yhvh's people couldn't even
pray; no, the only prescription that God set up for them was the model. It
was their one and only God-given option; and the God-given default was
certain death.

Apply the proceedings of that event to Jesus' crucifixion and you'll have a
pretty good idea of just how desperate things really are for mankind. Its
only chance of escaping the wrath of God is the crucifixion; there are no
other God-given options. Not church attendance, not sacraments, not love,
not charity, not the Eucharist, not rosaries, not scapulars, not candles, not
confession, not piety, not morality, not tithing, not commandments, not
holy days of obligation, not fasting, not the Beatitudes, not the golden rule,
not the Sermon On the Mount, not self denial, not even one's religious
affiliation nor anything else one might associate with salvation will do, not
even prayers.

How does an interested party "look to" Jesus' crucifixion? Piece of cake. Find
yourself a private space-- a restroom, out in the garage, your bedroom,
behind the woodshed; whatever --any space that works for you. To my
knowledge; God has yet to take His mojo off the cross; so put your face in
the palms of your hands and simply tell God that just as the lives of Yhvh's
people were spared by "looking to" Moses' model; you would like to spare
your own self the wrath of God by "looking to" Jesus' crucifixion.

Please note 1 John 1:7-10 in the OP (i.e. post #1).

That passage has nothing to do with obtaining eternal life seeing as how
according to 1John 5:13 the recipients of John's first epistle already
possessed eternal life even before his letter arrived. 1John 1:1-10 is about
fellowship; which is a whole different subject.

Buen Camino
/

 

[musterion]

Lotsa talk lately about the BAC's righteousness, or lack thereof.

“IF we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins
and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.” (1 John 1:9)

Who would like to be the first to call into question old John's sanity?

He is saying a BAC's righteousness is conditional ...
upon whether he actually confesses (repents) of his sins, or not.
t

Believe it or not, I agree with you. You are EXACTLY RIGHT that John is here teaching the conditional forgiveness of sins.

Now please reconcile 1 Jn 1:9 with Colossians 2:13.

 

[Rach1370]

There's a wise saying around my parts. I believe it and want to know what you think of it:

All of Scripture is FOR us but not all of Scripture is ABOUT us, nor is all of Scripture addressed TO us, nor is all of Scripture intended to be applied BY us.

Would you agree with that?

I certainly agree with the first half of that...but not with the latter half. It's been my understanding and experience that ALL of scripture is 'beneficial' to us.

All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work. (2 Timothy 3:16-17, ESV)

If ALL scripture is profitable to us for teaching, reproof, correction and training in righteousness, then that can be applied to us as much as others.
I heard a pastor once say that every story, parable or history in scripture can be applied to us.....they all have characters in them...usually the one who listens to and follows God and the one who doesn't. Which one are we? Which attitudes of our heart links us to these characters? Do we follow God, honor him, or do we go our own way, seek to make ourselves God?
I think when looked at like this, every single thing in scripture has something to teach us...both about God and his character, and humans and our characters.

 

[Webers_Home]

“IF we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins
and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.” (1 John 1:9)

According to 1:John 5:13, John's first epistle was penned for the benefit of
people with eternal life. I dare say that most of the people on this forum
have only human life; therefore it's only natural that John would seem to
them a man gone mad. Take for example this statement taken from 1John
3:9.

"Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him;
and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God."

Now juxtapose that statement with another of John's taken from 1John 1:8-
10.

"If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in
us . . . If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word
is not in us."

How can both statements be true when it seems so obvious to anybody with
at least the IQ of a Forrest Gump that they totally cancel each other? Well; I
know how they're both true; but I'm not telling. It's an inner-circle secret that
can be appreciated only by people with both human life and eternal life. Those
with only human life would just mock and roll their eyes; so what's the use.

Buen Camino
/