Mercy

[thelord's_pearl]

hello, Ok I'm merciful totally in certain things that I understand but I'm not merciful in things that are considered worse offenses. I think there still should be a fair amount of punishment for that person if he/she does this or that but in the scriptures it says 'blessed are the merciful for they will be given mercy' and there's also a parable I recall where a man said something like he didn't have to pay anything back as the person couldn't afford it, whatever the word afford can be interpreted as or symbolize.

If they're talking about money then if someone couldn't afford it then I'd be able to let them go but first be wise about who I lend my money to. So if you pray to God and say "I pray this person receives mercy. he doesn't have to owe me back for anything for what he did, just only I ask for him to stop" then if everyone was like that then this person would probably re-offend and then God will punish 'vengeance is mine', right?

 

[thelord's_pearl]

Also, just as everyone makes mistakes, they could receive mercy for less punishment then they would've if you weren't merciful, that can be seen as understandable, I think for murder though there should be more than equal punishment if you were to kill an innocent person, is there something wrong with that? Thanks a lot everyone for this discussion.

 

[Randy Kluth]

hello, Ok I'm merciful totally in certain things that I understand but I'm not merciful in things that are considered worse offenses. I think there still should be a fair amount of punishment for that person if he/she does this or that but in the scriptures it says 'blessed are the merciful for they will be given mercy' and there's also a parable I recall where a man said something like he didn't have to pay anything back as the person couldn't afford it, whatever the word afford can be interpreted as or symbolize.

If they're talking about money then if someone couldn't afford it then I'd be able to let them go but first be wise about who I lend my money to. So if you pray to God and say "I pray this person receives mercy. he doesn't have to owe me back for anything for what he did, just only I ask for him to stop" then if everyone was like that then this person would probably re-offend and then God will punish 'vengeance is mine', right?

It's 2-pronged Pearl. Mercy plus Justice--God requires both. Mercy doesn't come without justice. You don't loan money, the person refuses to pay back and demands "mercy!" That's not justice. Mercy comes when a person oversteps, is genuinely remorseful, and wants to do the right thing. To get the person going in the right direction, some indiscretions have to be forgiven.

Mind you, if a person has done you wrong, true repentance would require a good-faith effort to right the wrong. Otherwise, it wouldn't be just to forgive somebody not truly repentant, and not truly wanting to fix the problem.

 

[thelord's_pearl]

It's 2-pronged Pearl. Mercy plus Justice--God requires both. Mercy doesn't come without justice. You don't loan money, the person refuses to pay back and demands "mercy!" That's not justice. Mercy comes when a person oversteps, is genuinely remorseful, and wants to do the right thing. To get the person going in the right direction, some indiscretions have to be forgiven.

Mind you, if a person has done you wrong, true repentance would require a good-faith effort to right the wrong. Otherwise, it wouldn't be just to forgive somebody not truly repentant, and not truly wanting to fix the problem.

what do you mean by a good-faith effort to right the wrong?
Who says, in the bold I put in your quote? thanks

 

[thelord's_pearl]

I don't want to give the wrong impression of what I wrote though. & I'm confused

 

[amadeus]

@thelord's_pearl

Mt 18:23 Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants.
Mt 18:24 And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents.
Mt 18:25 But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made.
Mt 18:26 The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
Mt 18:27 Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt.
Mt 18:28 But the same servant went out, and found one of his fellowservants, which owed him an hundred pence: and he laid hands on him, and took him by the throat, saying, Pay me that thou owest.
Mt 18:29 And his fellowservant fell down at his feet, and besought him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
Mt 18:30 And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt.
Mt 18:31 So when his fellowservants saw what was done, they were very sorry, and came and told unto their lord all that was done.
Mt 18:32 Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me:
Mt 18:33 Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?
Mt 18:34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.

Jesus simplifies it here:

"Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy." Matt 5:7

 

[Randy Kluth]

what do you mean by a good-faith effort to right the wrong?
Who says, in the bold I put in your quote? thanks

As an example, in the OT, the Law required that when something was stolen, the penitant should have to not only apologize and make the necessary sacrifice, but he/she would also have to restore some of the value stolen. In effect, forgiveness could be had, but there would be compensation not just to return what was stolen, but also for the pain and suffering of the victims.

In Jesus' parable of the forgiven debtor, the debtor absolutely could not pay the enormous debt. Forgiveness was given even though compensation was impossible. When David sinned with Bathsheba, it was impossible to restore the life of the husband of Bathsheba, to undo the death of the child, and to fix the emotional disaster and poor witness to the country. God still forgave David, because he truly longed to return to who he once was, obedient to God's Law.

God wants a sincere heart that *would* compensate if it is possible. What is possible can only be determined situation by situation. At least, that's how I look at it. Forgiveness is not to be handed out cheaply like raffle tickets. True repentance must be visible and real.

 

[Hidden In Him]

hello, Ok I'm merciful totally in certain things that I understand but I'm not merciful in things that are considered worse offenses. I think there still should be a fair amount of punishment for that person if he/she does this or that but in the scriptures it says 'blessed are the merciful for they will be given mercy'

Good morning, Lord's Pearl!

I understand this. There are certain things that offend me worse than others as well, especially things like cruelty to animals, or cruelty to children. But you do have to trust that "'vengeance is mine, I will replay' says the Lord" or you will get yourself in a lot of trouble. And you also have to guard your heart and get negative thoughts out before you act on them, so it pays to get alone with God and in prayer, and then try thinking on positive things again. Besides, when you get in prayer even for very wicked people, you will find the Lord starting to soften your heart towards them; maybe they were abused as a child, maybe they have suffered very traumatic injustices themselves, and it has effected them so deeply that they in turn now do the same things to others...

You just give your heart and your time and your thought life to God, and let Him heal you.

Also, just as everyone makes mistakes, they could receive mercy for less punishment then they would've if you weren't merciful, that can be seen as understandable, I think for murder though there should be more than equal punishment if you were to kill an innocent person, is there something wrong with that? Thanks a lot everyone for this discussion.

Again, what I think you want to do is leave judgment in God's hands. He can see the heart, and He knows the motivation. Maybe the person thought the murder was necessary because it was in self-defense. Maybe it wasn't what they intended, so it wasn't premeditated... all sorts of things go into judgment from God, just as all sorts of things have to be weighed into things in a court of law, before a proper judgment can be arrived at.

Can I ask what it is that's bothering you?
- H

 

[thelord's_pearl]

As an example, in the OT, the Law required that when something was stolen, the penitant should have to not only apologize and make the necessary sacrifice, but he/she would also have to restore some of the value stolen. In effect, forgiveness could be had, but there would be compensation not just to return what was stolen, but also for the pain and suffering of the victims.

In Jesus' parable of the forgiven debtor, the debtor absolutely could not pay the enormous debt. Forgiveness was given even though compensation was impossible. When David sinned with Bathsheba, it was impossible to restore the life of the husband of Bathsheba, to undo the death of the child, and to fix the emotional disaster and poor witness to the country. God still forgave David, because he truly longed to return to who he once was, obedient to God's Law.

God wants a sincere heart that *would* compensate if it is possible. What is possible can only be determined situation by situation. At least, that's how I look at it. Forgiveness is not to be handed out cheaply like raffle tickets. True repentance must be visible and real.

That's how I think like in the underlined of your quote but Jesus said on the cross 'Forgive them for they know not what they do' so that seems to mean that even though they weren't sorry, the Lord in the flesh requested that the Father God to forgive them anyway.

Thanks a lot Hidden In Him, for your advice, yeah prayer is important in feeling God's presence and voice. Nothing is bothering me, I just like this topic as it can be helpful as a life principle in your walk with God.

 

[thelord's_pearl]

As an example, in the OT, the Law required that when something was stolen, the penitant should have to not only apologize and make the necessary sacrifice, but he/she would also have to restore some of the value stolen. In effect, forgiveness could be had, but there would be compensation not just to return what was stolen, but also for the pain and suffering of the victims.

In Jesus' parable of the forgiven debtor, the debtor absolutely could not pay the enormous debt. Forgiveness was given even though compensation was impossible. When David sinned with Bathsheba, it was impossible to restore the life of the husband of Bathsheba, to undo the death of the child, and to fix the emotional disaster and poor witness to the country. God still forgave David, because he truly longed to return to who he once was, obedient to God's Law.

God wants a sincere heart that *would* compensate if it is possible. What is possible can only be determined situation by situation. At least, that's how I look at it. Forgiveness is not to be handed out cheaply like raffle tickets. True repentance must be visible and real.

This confuses me. first you give an example in the OT and then you give the opposite example that contradicts the first example. If someone borrowed from you and then found out that they sincerely couldn't pay you back then it's up to God to take this into account as you pray about this situation and that was your incentive anyway as I think you call it but it was the last part I asked that I didn't get.

 

[Randy Kluth]

That's how I think like in the underlined of your quote but Jesus said on the cross 'Forgive them for they know not what they do' so that seems to mean that even though they weren't sorry, the Lord in the flesh requested that the Father God to forgive them anyway.

Thanks a lot Hidden In Him, for your advice, yeah prayer is important in feeling God's presence and voice. Nothing is bothering me, I just like this topic as it can be helpful as a life principle in your walk with God.

Pearl, I've had problems with fellow Christians on this subject for years. I've learned over many years not to be a doormat for Satan--he knows our consciences are weak. All he has to do is accuse us of being "unloving," and we fold. We give the enemy all he requests.

We shouldn't even be talking with the enemy. When he tries to negotiate our surrender to him, we should just inform him that we're not interested. Ignore the condemnation. Even the enemy can speak through Christian brothers and sisters.

When Jesus said to forgive the Jews who rejected him, he was clearly making forgiveness conditioned on their repentance. He was stating that they had sinned in ignorance, and that with proper guidance and with proper instruction, they would see the error of their ways, no longer be naive, and would not reject him.

Those who are "ignorant of what they do," and yet do not really want to know the truth will not be forgiven. Jesus was extending forgiveness for those who would repent if they came to know what they did.

Do you see what I mean? "I forgive you because you didn't know what you're doing" is predicated on the sense that if you had known what you were doing, you wouldn't have done such a thing. You can be forgiven for your ignorance, but you can't be forgiven when you know, and yet refuse to repent.

The Gospel of the Kingdom is not merely the dissemination of knowledge about a glorious Kingdom, but it is also the dissemination of knowledge of human sin so that we may repent of it. It is a Gospel of repentance, by Jesus' own words. Thus, it brings a knowledge so that men may repent. There is no forgiveness without this repentance once this knowledge has been given.

The Gospel has 2 sides to it, 1 of which is often overlooked. It is to "bind" and to "loose." It is to release men from their sins, to "loose" them from their sins when they repent. By bringing the Gospel to those who repent, we bring them liberation from their sins, and they obtain spiritual power over their sins.

But the Gospel is also to bind men in their sins when they come to know their wrongs and refuse to repent of them. This brings judgment upon them so that in the coming ages, these people will have their place removed.

I don't agree, therefore, that Jesus said to forgive all without conditions. Rather, his forgiveness was predicated on knowledge, and the Gospel is designed by God to bring men the knowledge of their sins so that they may either repent and be saved, or refuse to repent and be condemned. Refusal to repent has consequences.

Jesus grants forgiveness to men so that they have time to learn the knowledge of his Kingdom so that they may repent. Then, when they have received this knowledge, their forgiveness may lead to salvation. Otherwise, not.

 

[thelord's_pearl]

Pearl, I've had problems with fellow Christians on this subject for years. I've learned over many years not to be a doormat for Satan--he knows our consciences are weak. All he has to do is accuse us of being "unloving," and we fold. We give the enemy all he requests.

We shouldn't even be talking with the enemy. When he tries to negotiate our surrender to him, we should just inform him that we're not interested. Ignore the condemnation. Even the enemy can speak through Christian brothers and sisters.

When Jesus said to forgive the Jews who rejected him, he was clearly making forgiveness conditioned on their repentance. He was stating that they had sinned in ignorance, and that with proper guidance and with proper instruction, they would see the error of their ways, no longer be naive, and would not reject him.

Those who are "ignorant of what they do," and yet do not really want to know the truth will not be forgiven. Jesus was extending forgiveness for those who would repent if they came to know what they did.

Do you see what I mean? "I forgive you because you didn't know what you're doing" is predicated on the sense that if you had known what you were doing, you wouldn't have done such a thing. You can be forgiven for your ignorance, but you can't be forgiven when you know, and yet refuse to repent.

The Gospel of the Kingdom is not merely the dissemination of knowledge about a glorious Kingdom, but it is also the dissemination of knowledge of human sin so that we may repent of it. It is a Gospel of repentance, by Jesus' own words. Thus, it brings a knowledge so that men may repent. There is no forgiveness without this repentance once this knowledge has been given.

The Gospel has 2 sides to it, 1 of which is often overlooked. It is to "bind" and to "loose." It is to release men from their sins, to "loose" them from their sins when they repent. By bringing the Gospel to those who repent, we bring them liberation from their sins, and they obtain spiritual power over their sins.

But the Gospel is also to bind men in their sins when they come to know their wrongs and refuse to repent of them. This brings judgment upon them so that in the coming ages, these people will have their place removed.

I don't agree, therefore, that Jesus said to forgive all without conditions. Rather, his forgiveness was predicated on knowledge, and the Gospel is designed by God to bring men the knowledge of their sins so that they may either repent and be saved, or refuse to repent and be condemned.

I see where you're coming from, interesting so I wonder what others have to say on this, it sounds fair.

 

[Randy Kluth]

I see where you're coming from, interesting so I wonder what others have to say on this, it sounds fair.

Sorry, I was still trying to craft an answer, when you responded! ;) I'm kind of slow posting my messages, because I re-read them, and find it isn't always coming across so well. And so, I re-write. Hope you get all that I'm saying?

 

[thelord's_pearl]

but it is just your interpretation as the scripture literally says that Jesus said 'Forgive them, for they know not what they do'. So they were ignorantly evil, they didn't reeally understand what they were doing. in what context did they not know what they were doing we should examine. Sorry if you feel you should have to repeat yourself, perhaps others can hop in, I don't fully understand

 

[Randy Kluth]

but it is just your interpretation as the scripture literally says that Jesus said 'Forgive them, for they know not what they do'. So they were ignorantly evil, they didn't reeally understand what they were doing. in what context did they not know what they were doing we should examine. Sorry if you feel you should have to repeat yourself, perhaps others can hop in, I don't fully understand

Yea, that's why I was trying to re-write it. Put simply, Jesus forgives to give men and women time to come to know the Gospel. It is a temporary, conditional forgiveness, giving time to know that what they did wasn't right.

And so, eternal forgiveness is conditional upon them coming to the knowledge that what they did was wrong so that they may repent. That is why the Gospel was given, so that men may know that what they do apart from God is wrong, and that they can live in God and so have power to live a righteous life. This is what brings eternal forgiveness.

Keep in mind that temporary forgiveness is not equal to receiving eternal life. Jesus granted a temporary reprieve, or "forgiveness," not so that they may have eternal life through that forgiveness, but so that they could have time to come to their senses, learn about the Gospel, and then repent. Eternal Life is conditioned upon repentance in the name of Christ, so that we choose to live by his Spirit. This alone is Eternal Life.

If Jesus had meant to forgive men and women and immediately give them eternal life through that pardon, he would have said so. But he didn't.

Instead, he only said, "Father, pardon them." In other words, don't judge them immediately, because he wanted to give them time to repent. He wanted to give all men the opportunity to repent and receive eternal life.

 

[thelord's_pearl]

Ok let's put it this way- Jesus said 'Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do'
#1- they know not what they do (didn't really understand what they were doing was evil, they thought there was merit for it even though there was none but accusation)
#2- they did it and were happy about it so they weren't sorry = one doesn't have to be sorry before you forgive them
What does anyone have to say about this?

 

[thelord's_pearl]

Yea, that's why I was trying to re-write it. Put simply, Jesus forgives to give men and women time to come to know the Gospel. It is a temporary, conditional forgiveness, giving time to know that what they did wasn't right.

And so, eternal forgiveness is conditional upon them coming to the knowledge that what they did was wrong so that they may repent. That is why the Gospel was given, so that men may know that what they do apart from God is wrong, and that they can live in God and so have power to live a righteous life. This is what brings eternal forgiveness.

it's good what you have written but is what you're writing what's from a Bible study, reference, studied to be truly the correct answer? thanks Randy

 

[Randy Kluth]

it's good what you have written but is what you're writing what's from a Bible study, reference, studied to be truly the correct answer? thanks Randy

This is something that you have to decide, through your conscience and through experience. I'm comfortable with my answer, though it is not a popular answer. It seems people want to love their enemies without expressing a real sense of "justice." But I think it's pretty naive. We shouldn't enable lawbreakers. Forgiveness is not cheap. It extends a waiting period for repentance, until enough knowledge arrives for a lawbreaker to make the decision to repent. Jesus didn't die on the cross to forgive everyone universally. I don't believe in universal salvation. Just my opinion, which is what you seemed to be asking for?

 

[thelord's_pearl]

Ok let's put it this way- Jesus said 'Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do'
#1- they know not what they do (didn't really understand what they were doing was evil, they thought there was merit for it even though there was none but accusation)
#2- they did it and were happy about it so they weren't sorry = one doesn't have to be sorry before you forgive them
What does anyone have to say about this?

So any takers?

This is something that you have to decide, through your conscience and through experience. I'm comfortable with my answer, though it is not a popular answer. It seems people want to love their enemies without expressing a real sense of "justice." But I think it's pretty naive. We shouldn't enable lawbreakers. Forgiveness is not cheap. It extends a waiting period for repentance, until enough knowledge arrives for a lawbreaker to make the decision to repent. Jesus didn't die on the cross to forgive everyone universally. I don't believe in universal salvation. Just my opinion, which is what you seemed to be asking for?

I wanted biblical scriptural truth, I guess that is sometimes mixed w/ opinion and observation, thanks for your opinion

 

[Randy Kluth]

So any takers?
I wanted biblical scriptural truth, I guess that is sometimes mixed w/ opinion and observation, thanks for your opinion

You're welcome. Just my opinion. But I strongly reject the idea that Jesus died to forgive people who *at the time* knew what they were doing and were unrepentant. These are people consigned to outer darkness.

There is *much more* in Scripture that indicates that not all people in this age are forgiven. The acts of judgment from God with men are taking place *all the time* in the present age, and do not await Judgment Day. The Age of Grace is designed as an act of Divine Patience, giving men time to make up their minds, time to learn the truth, and time to respond to the Gospel that they hear.

No, once again, I believe Jesus died for those "who didn't know better," and died to condemn those who did "know better." It was a double pronged approach, one to forgive and the other to condemn.

When we hear Jesus say on the cross, "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do," we need to recognize that the additional part, "for they know not what they do" was designed to focus on the "salvation" part of the atonement. The other part of the atonement, for those who did "know what they do" were condemned in this act of atonement.

They are consigned to death, just as Jesus himself died for human sin. Those who do not repent will suffer the death for all eternity that Jesus represented. Jesus died to put away sin and unrepentant sinners for all time. Just my opinion, but I do believe it's biblical.