My New Life

[soul man]

The many Christians today are trying to change their old man. They have no concept of Christ as their new life. Instead they work to beat out the old way of living and be a better person, and that is what is called a Christian today. The problem with that is God never tells us to change our old man. The cross is the place of exchange, old man out new man in. So changing a dead man is a waste of time. I'll tell you this! with the mind the old man left you it is impossible to make a go of being good for very long. Something will always be there to disrupt your goodness. Now being good is not a bad thing but you nolonger strive to be good to be a Christian, that is the gospel of correction. Always correcting you to live a certain life, when there is not a man or woman alive that can live it.

It was never God's intention that you live a Christian life, he put Christ in you and the new creation life comes forward, over whelming your previous mind thoughts of; I'm just a poor lowly Christian trying to make it in this world. When our leading preachers got in trouble some years ago by their own consensus confessed; we have been fighting this thing for years. What were they fighting; to change the old man. It will not happen because it is not suppose to happen, God dealt a death blow to the old man "in Christ" on Galgotha's hill, the place of the cross. When Christ died all in Adam died, fact is now sinners need to believe unto salvation, 2 Cor. 5:14,

14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:

Sinners don't know nothing except they need a savior. When I was saved I didnt even know anything about a God, but I knew I needed help and God was there to help the helpless.
I'm always amazed at people in the world that have some kind of God concept, I retained no knowledge about God, he was never on my lips, it was like he didn't exsist, to me he didn't. Sinners don't need to try to pay a dept or do something for their salvation, they need to believe and be saved. So you see the gospel is not a message of correction, but it is a gospel of a new life in Jesus. The gospel points ailing humanity to a new life. You can keep correcting your old life untill the day you die or you can see Christ as your life. That is what the HolySpirit does, he speaks of Jesus he shows you your new life in Christ, John 15:26,

26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

There is a thing I'll call Ostrich religion! Where you can stick your head in the sand hoping all these circumstances and situations pass but when you resurface they still remain, and sometimes even worse. But the choice believers have is to listen to the Spirit and he will reveal all things to you, just like Jesus said he would do when he came.

 

[Not me]

The many Christians today are trying to change their old man. They have no concept of Christ as their new life. Instead they work to beat out the old way of living and be a better person, and that is what is called a Christian today. The problem with that is God never tells us to change our old man. The cross is the place of exchange, old man out new man in. So changing a dead man is a waste of time. I'll tell you this! with the mind the old man left you it is impossible to make a go of being good for very long. Something will always be there to disrupt your goodness. Now being good is not a bad thing but you nolonger strive to be good to be a Christian, that is the gospel of correction. Always correcting you to live a certain life, when there is not a man or woman alive that can live it.

It was never God's intention that you live a Christian life, he put Christ in you and the new creation life comes forward, over whelming your previous mind thoughts of; I'm just a poor lowly Christian trying to make it in this world. When our leading preachers got in trouble some years ago by their own consensus confessed; we have been fighting this thing for years. What were they fighting; to change the old man. It will not happen because it is not suppose to happen, God dealt a death blow to the old man "in Christ" on Galgotha's hill, the place of the cross. When Christ died all in Adam died, fact is now sinners need to believe unto salvation, 2 Cor. 5:14,

14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:

Sinners don't know nothing except they need a savior. When I was saved I didnt even know anything about a God, but I knew I needed help and God was there to help the helpless.
I'm always amazed at people in the world that have some kind of God concept, I retained no knowledge about God, he was never on my lips, it was like he didn't exsist, to me he didn't. Sinners don't need to try to pay a dept or do something for their salvation, they need to believe and be saved. So you see the gospel is not a message of correction, but it is a gospel of a new life in Jesus. The gospel points ailing humanity to a new life. You can keep correcting your old life untill the day you die or you can see Christ as your life. That is what the HolySpirit does, he speaks of Jesus he shows you your new life in Christ, John 15:26,

26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

There is a thing I'll call Ostrich religion! Where you can stick your head in the sand hoping all these circumstances and situations pass but when you resurface they still remain, and sometimes even worse. But the choice believers have is to listen to the Spirit and he will reveal all things to you, just like Jesus said he would do when he came.

Such a blessed truth to write about... our deaths in Christ...for;

“He that has died is freed from sin”

This truth, seen with the heart, is the truth that opens up the doorway to walking in newness of life. This truth once seen, brings in such a joy and peace and security to the heart of the one that sees this truth. This truth is than seen to be the ground from which the Divine Nature in us grows to maturity.

Blessed is the heart that sees this truth, oh to see this truth to a ever increasing degree.

Be blessed in Him as this truth grows and grows in all that would have it, Not me

 

[Pearl]

The many Christians today are trying to change their old man. They have no concept of Christ as their new life. Instead they work to beat out the old way of living and be a better person, and that is what is called a Christian today. The problem with that is God never tells us to change our old man. The cross is the place of exchange, old man out new man in. So changing a dead man is a waste of time. I'll tell you this! with the mind the old man left you it is impossible to make a go of being good for very long. Something will always be there to disrupt your goodness. Now being good is not a bad thing but you nolonger strive to be good to be a Christian, that is the gospel of correction. Always correcting you to live a certain life, when there is not a man or woman alive that can live it.

It was never God's intention that you live a Christian life, he put Christ in you and the new creation life comes forward, over whelming your previous mind thoughts of; I'm just a poor lowly Christian trying to make it in this world. When our leading preachers got in trouble some years ago by their own consensus confessed; we have been fighting this thing for years. What were they fighting; to change the old man. It will not happen because it is not suppose to happen, God dealt a death blow to the old man "in Christ" on Galgotha's hill, the place of the cross. When Christ died all in Adam died, fact is now sinners need to believe unto salvation, 2 Cor. 5:14,

14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:

Sinners don't know nothing except they need a savior. When I was saved I didnt even know anything about a God, but I knew I needed help and God was there to help the helpless.
I'm always amazed at people in the world that have some kind of God concept, I retained no knowledge about God, he was never on my lips, it was like he didn't exsist, to me he didn't. Sinners don't need to try to pay a dept or do something for their salvation, they need to believe and be saved. So you see the gospel is not a message of correction, but it is a gospel of a new life in Jesus. The gospel points ailing humanity to a new life. You can keep correcting your old life untill the day you die or you can see Christ as your life. That is what the HolySpirit does, he speaks of Jesus he shows you your new life in Christ, John 15:26,

26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

There is a thing I'll call Ostrich religion! Where you can stick your head in the sand hoping all these circumstances and situations pass but when you resurface they still remain, and sometimes even worse. But the choice believers have is to listen to the Spirit and he will reveal all things to you, just like Jesus said he would do when he came.

Amen, amen, amen. Well said. Good post. So many people beat themselves up because they feel unworthy or imperfect. Trying to change oneself never works. A leopard cannot change its spots. But God can.

 

[Not me]

Amen, amen, amen. Well said. Good post. So many people beat themselves up because they feel unworthy or imperfect. Trying to change oneself never works. A leopard cannot change its spots. But God can.

Oh yes;

“A leopard cannot change his spots. But God can.”

Be most blessed as we get to know this one Who can.

In Christ, Not me

 

[Episkopos]

The many Christians today are trying to change their old man. They have no concept of Christ as their new life. Instead they work to beat out the old way of living and be a better person, and that is what is called a Christian today. The problem with that is God never tells us to change our old man. The cross is the place of exchange, old man out new man in. So changing a dead man is a waste of time. I'll tell you this! with the mind the old man left you it is impossible to make a go of being good for very long. Something will always be there to disrupt your goodness. Now being good is not a bad thing but you nolonger strive to be good to be a Christian, that is the gospel of correction. Always correcting you to live a certain life, when there is not a man or woman alive that can live it.

It was never God's intention that you live a Christian life, he put Christ in you and the new creation life comes forward, over whelming your previous mind thoughts of; I'm just a poor lowly Christian trying to make it in this world. When our leading preachers got in trouble some years ago by their own consensus confessed; we have been fighting this thing for years. What were they fighting; to change the old man. It will not happen because it is not suppose to happen, God dealt a death blow to the old man "in Christ" on Galgotha's hill, the place of the cross. When Christ died all in Adam died, fact is now sinners need to believe unto salvation, 2 Cor. 5:14,

14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:

Sinners don't know nothing except they need a savior. When I was saved I didnt even know anything about a God, but I knew I needed help and God was there to help the helpless.
I'm always amazed at people in the world that have some kind of God concept, I retained no knowledge about God, he was never on my lips, it was like he didn't exsist, to me he didn't. Sinners don't need to try to pay a dept or do something for their salvation, they need to believe and be saved. So you see the gospel is not a message of correction, but it is a gospel of a new life in Jesus. The gospel points ailing humanity to a new life. You can keep correcting your old life untill the day you die or you can see Christ as your life. That is what the HolySpirit does, he speaks of Jesus he shows you your new life in Christ, John 15:26,

26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

There is a thing I'll call Ostrich religion! Where you can stick your head in the sand hoping all these circumstances and situations pass but when you resurface they still remain, and sometimes even worse. But the choice believers have is to listen to the Spirit and he will reveal all things to you, just like Jesus said he would do when he came.

There is also the ostrich religion of sticking your head in the sand and calling that being in Christ.

 

[farouk]

The many Christians today are trying to change their old man. They have no concept of Christ as their new life. Instead they work to beat out the old way of living and be a better person, and that is what is called a Christian today. The problem with that is God never tells us to change our old man. The cross is the place of exchange, old man out new man in. So changing a dead man is a waste of time. I'll tell you this! with the mind the old man left you it is impossible to make a go of being good for very long. Something will always be there to disrupt your goodness. Now being good is not a bad thing but you nolonger strive to be good to be a Christian, that is the gospel of correction. Always correcting you to live a certain life, when there is not a man or woman alive that can live it.

It was never God's intention that you live a Christian life, he put Christ in you and the new creation life comes forward, over whelming your previous mind thoughts of; I'm just a poor lowly Christian trying to make it in this world. When our leading preachers got in trouble some years ago by their own consensus confessed; we have been fighting this thing for years. What were they fighting; to change the old man. It will not happen because it is not suppose to happen, God dealt a death blow to the old man "in Christ" on Galgotha's hill, the place of the cross. When Christ died all in Adam died, fact is now sinners need to believe unto salvation, 2 Cor. 5:14,

14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:

Sinners don't know nothing except they need a savior. When I was saved I didnt even know anything about a God, but I knew I needed help and God was there to help the helpless.
I'm always amazed at people in the world that have some kind of God concept, I retained no knowledge about God, he was never on my lips, it was like he didn't exsist, to me he didn't. Sinners don't need to try to pay a dept or do something for their salvation, they need to believe and be saved. So you see the gospel is not a message of correction, but it is a gospel of a new life in Jesus. The gospel points ailing humanity to a new life. You can keep correcting your old life untill the day you die or you can see Christ as your life. That is what the HolySpirit does, he speaks of Jesus he shows you your new life in Christ, John 15:26,

26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

There is a thing I'll call Ostrich religion! Where you can stick your head in the sand hoping all these circumstances and situations pass but when you resurface they still remain, and sometimes even worse. But the choice believers have is to listen to the Spirit and he will reveal all things to you, just like Jesus said he would do when he came.

The change can only come via the new birth, spiritually. (John 3). :)

 

[Naomi25]

The many Christians today are trying to change their old man. They have no concept of Christ as their new life. Instead they work to beat out the old way of living and be a better person, and that is what is called a Christian today. The problem with that is God never tells us to change our old man. The cross is the place of exchange, old man out new man in. So changing a dead man is a waste of time. I'll tell you this! with the mind the old man left you it is impossible to make a go of being good for very long. Something will always be there to disrupt your goodness. Now being good is not a bad thing but you nolonger strive to be good to be a Christian, that is the gospel of correction. Always correcting you to live a certain life, when there is not a man or woman alive that can live it.

It was never God's intention that you live a Christian life, he put Christ in you and the new creation life comes forward, over whelming your previous mind thoughts of; I'm just a poor lowly Christian trying to make it in this world. When our leading preachers got in trouble some years ago by their own consensus confessed; we have been fighting this thing for years. What were they fighting; to change the old man. It will not happen because it is not suppose to happen, God dealt a death blow to the old man "in Christ" on Galgotha's hill, the place of the cross. When Christ died all in Adam died, fact is now sinners need to believe unto salvation, 2 Cor. 5:14,

14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:

Sinners don't know nothing except they need a savior. When I was saved I didnt even know anything about a God, but I knew I needed help and God was there to help the helpless.
I'm always amazed at people in the world that have some kind of God concept, I retained no knowledge about God, he was never on my lips, it was like he didn't exsist, to me he didn't. Sinners don't need to try to pay a dept or do something for their salvation, they need to believe and be saved. So you see the gospel is not a message of correction, but it is a gospel of a new life in Jesus. The gospel points ailing humanity to a new life. You can keep correcting your old life untill the day you die or you can see Christ as your life. That is what the HolySpirit does, he speaks of Jesus he shows you your new life in Christ, John 15:26,

26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

There is a thing I'll call Ostrich religion! Where you can stick your head in the sand hoping all these circumstances and situations pass but when you resurface they still remain, and sometimes even worse. But the choice believers have is to listen to the Spirit and he will reveal all things to you, just like Jesus said he would do when he came.

I read this post and I am unsure if you are supporting salvation by grace alone, or if you are actually trying to presume upon grace. I would like to hope its the former, but when you said "The problem with that is God never tells us to change our old man", that worried me. As did "It was never God's intention that you live a Christian life".
To me, this indicates you are trying to say that once we have recieved grace, which we know is a gift, free of works or anything done on our side...then we may continue on in our present lifestyles, regardless of what they look like.
The problem with that is, the bible does indeed indicate that after we have recieved grace we are to walk in a manner worthy of that free gift.

Colossians 3:5 - Put to death therefore what is earthly in you: sexual immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry.

Romans 8:13 - For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

There are many more passages that speak towards how a Christian should live once saved, but these two shall do for my purpose. When saying we must "put to death", Paul signals our active participation with the Spirit's work in our life. It is not just something we sit back and 'let happen' to us, like we turn around one day and find "goodness me, but I suddenly no longer covet that thing". No, typically, we need to work at that. And while its true that no true spiritual growth can happen without God's help through the Spirit, sanctification is not one sided like the free gift was.

Now, I hope very much I have mis-understood you and those phrases. But there are many people out there who would indeed presume upon grace and revel in their ability to continue on in their old lifestyle while 'claiming' the salvation of Christ. But the simple fact of the matter is this: the bible teaches that a person who has truly experienced the life-altering experience of coming to Jesus Christ and having their dead heart replaced...they long to live the Christian life, as you call it. Not because they want to 'do it right' or 'get to heaven' by ticking the boxes. It's simply because Jesus wants us to become more like him. The Christian life is a love response to a greater love that was shown to us. That's all. And we know that in putting to death sin in our lives, we are, in point of fact, putting to death things that enslave us and winning for ourselves things that will bring real joy.

 

[soul man]

I read this post and I am unsure if you are supporting salvation by grace alone, or if you are actually trying to presume upon grace. I would like to hope its the former, but when you said "The problem with that is God never tells us to change our old man", that worried me. As did "It was never God's intention that you live a Christian life".
To me, this indicates you are trying to say that once we have recieved grace, which we know is a gift, free of works or anything done on our side...then we may continue on in our present lifestyles, regardless of what they look like.
The problem with that is, the bible does indeed indicate that after we have recieved grace we are to walk in a manner worthy of that free gift.

Colossians 3:5 - Put to death therefore what is earthly in you: sexual immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry.

Romans 8:13 - For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

There are many more passages that speak towards how a Christian should live once saved, but these two shall do for my purpose. When saying we must "put to death", Paul signals our active participation with the Spirit's work in our life. It is not just something we sit back and 'let happen' to us, like we turn around one day and find "goodness me, but I suddenly no longer covet that thing". No, typically, we need to work at that. And while its true that no true spiritual growth can happen without God's help through the Spirit, sanctification is not one sided like the free gift was.

Now, I hope very much I have mis-understood you and those phrases. But there are many people out there who would indeed presume upon grace and revel in their ability to continue on in their old lifestyle while 'claiming' the salvation of Christ. But the simple fact of the matter is this: the bible teaches that a person who has truly experienced the life-altering experience of coming to Jesus Christ and having their dead heart replaced...they long to live the Christian life, as you call it. Not because they want to 'do it right' or 'get to heaven' by ticking the boxes. It's simply because Jesus wants us to become more like him. The Christian life is a love response to a greater love that was shown to us. That's all. And we know that in putting to death sin in our lives, we are, in point of fact, putting to death things that enslave us and winning for ourselves things that will bring real joy.

Thank you for commenting, enjoyed reading well put together. I'll see if I can give my understanding.
Paul acknowledges that Christ lives is in him now, and if that's so it is different than just coming into the world and being a reactor to life (previous life). If he is just going to react to life then the new birth meant nothing, you are dead and have no life of your own. I realize people don't feel like that, they feel a strong need to correct their old man, it's called the old man syndrome.
Now that Christ is the life of the believer, he is their only life. You cannot find a Christian life, super saint life, a human life (or nature for that matter) parent life, work life, church life, husband/wife life, or any other life in the scriptures. What we do see is Christ in the believer as their only life and with some growth in grace and knowledge, expressed as the unique individual God created them to be, but it is all in Christ.
The only life you can find written is;
(1) death-life (the fall, Adam was created a living soul but chose death) in the garden death-life started, first Adam.
(2) Christ-life (the death of death-life, Adam and his nature with his nature killed out at the cross. Resurrection-Christ-life) for a Christian started the moment they believed, second Adam.
The scriptures that you gave either have to do with mind renewal or renewal that has taken place and the believer is expected to live what they know. But it is soul-mind given to spirit (soul and spirit become compatible) and expressed in body. Just as when people lived in the world, they lived out who they were spontenously, we didn't need to work up the sin nature it was there to react in a moment.
So it is with Christ in you, but we must learn Christ who is our life. All we knew when in sin (death-life) was a battle to keep the sin nature in check, hence the law of the land, to keep people in-line so to speak.

 

[Naomi25]

Thank you for commenting, enjoyed reading well put together. I'll see if I can give my understanding.
Paul acknowledges that Christ lives is in him now, and if that's so it is different than just coming into the world and being a reactor to life (previous life). If he is just going to react to life then the new birth meant nothing, you are dead and have no life of your own. I realize people don't feel like that, they feel a strong need to correct their old man, it's called the old man syndrome.
Now that Christ is the life of the believer, he is their only life. You cannot find a Christian life, super saint life, a human life (or nature for that matter) parent life, work life, church life, husband/wife life, or any other life in the scriptures. What we do see is Christ in the believer as their only life and with some growth in grace and knowledge, expressed as the unique individual God created them to be, but it is all in Christ.
The only life you can find written is;
(1) death-life (the fall, Adam was created a living soul but chose death) in the garden death-life started, first Adam.
(2) Christ-life (the death of death-life, Adam and his nature with his nature killed out at the cross. Resurrection-Christ-life) for a Christian started the moment they believed, second Adam.
The scriptures that you gave either have to do with mind renewal or renewal that has taken place and the believer is expected to live what they know. But it is soul-mind given to spirit (soul and spirit become compatible) and expressed in body. Just as when people lived in the world, they lived out who they were spontenously, we didn't need to work up the sin nature it was there to react in a moment.
So it is with Christ in you, but we must learn Christ who is our life. All we knew when in sin (death-life) was a battle to keep the sin nature in check, hence the law of the land, to keep people in-line so to speak.

I am very much afraid that I do not understand you. I fully acknowledge that might be my own dense-ness, however. Is that even a word?
I am not at all sure what you are saying when you say that the bible doesn't speak to 'Christian life', because I see otherwise! It has advice for husbands, wives, children. It has advice for business people and workers. It has advice for Church functioning; the members within it. It has advice for sick, weary and disheartened people, for persecuted people. And it mentions all these Christians specifically. And indeed, these are things that as Christians we deal with in our lives, even as our new lives are 'hidden in Christ'. More importantly, as I pointed out before, it mentions how Christians are to put to death sin in their lives...something John says we cannot deny we have. Again, I'm afraid I do not understand your point about 'mind renewal' in conjuction with these verses.
Anyway, if you want to persevere with me, you might want to have a go spelling it out in a little more simpler form...!

 

[Jay Ross]

Again, I'm afraid I do not understand your point about 'mind renewal' in conjuction with these verses.

Perhaps soul man was referring to this passage: -

Ephesians 4:17-24: - The New Man

17 This I say, therefore, and testify in the Lord, that you should no longer walk as the rest of the Gentiles walk, in the futility of their mind, 18 having their understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God, because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart; 19 who, being past feeling, have given themselves over to lewdness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.

20 But you have not so learned Christ, 21 if indeed you have heard Him and have been taught by Him, as the truth is in Jesus: 22 that you put off, concerning your former conduct, the old man which grows corrupt according to the deceitful lusts, 23 and be renewed in the spirit of your mind, 24 and that you put on the new/refurbished man which was created according to God, in true righteousness and holiness.
​

In this passage of Paul's, he speaks of the renewal of our minds, the putting off of the old nature and the putting on of the nature/understanding of Christ. He then goes on to say that the process is not finished until we put on the refurbished man so as to live out that renewed life in reality.

Shalom

 

[soul man]

I am very much afraid that I do not understand you. I fully acknowledge that might be my own dense-ness, however. Is that even a word?
I am not at all sure what you are saying when you say that the bible doesn't speak to 'Christian life', because I see otherwise! It has advice for husbands, wives, children. It has advice for business people and workers. It has advice for Church functioning; the members within it. It has advice for sick, weary and disheartened people, for persecuted people. And it mentions all these Christians specifically. And indeed, these are things that as Christians we deal with in our lives, even as our new lives are 'hidden in Christ'. More importantly, as I pointed out before, it mentions how Christians are to put to death sin in their lives...something John says we cannot deny we have. Again, I'm afraid I do not understand your point about 'mind renewal' in conjuction with these verses.
Anyway, if you want to persevere with me, you might want to have a go spelling it out in a little more simpler form...!

Yea I know I'm kind of a nerd sometimes :) the main point is it is Christ as the doer now. What ever you are doing, as a Christian according to scripture you can see it as christ your life. Your home life, your Christian life, whatever we are doing in life. It is Christ in you the hope of glory that is the life and the believer is an expression of that life. The two have become one, the twain have become one in spirit and one in mind to live. Out of that life Christians become everything they were created to be, it is just a new life, with the old life dead. New creation the bible calls it, Christ in you. That has reference to two people, Christ in you! Getting those two compatible for living out a new life is what the gospel does.
And by the way, I think that is a word. Oh well I make up words all the time, and my punctuation forget it.

 

[Naomi25]

Perhaps soul man was referring to this passage: -

Ephesians 4:17-24: - The New Man

17 This I say, therefore, and testify in the Lord, that you should no longer walk as the rest of the Gentiles walk, in the futility of their mind, 18 having their understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God, because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart; 19 who, being past feeling, have given themselves over to lewdness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.

20 But you have not so learned Christ, 21 if indeed you have heard Him and have been taught by Him, as the truth is in Jesus: 22 that you put off, concerning your former conduct, the old man which grows corrupt according to the deceitful lusts, 23 and be renewed in the spirit of your mind, 24 and that you put on the new/refurbished man which was created according to God, in true righteousness and holiness.
​

In this passage of Paul's, he speaks of the renewal of our minds, the putting off of the old nature and the putting on of the nature/understanding of Christ. He then goes on to say that the process is not finished until we put on the refurbished man so as to live out that renewed life in reality.

Shalom

Thanks for the imput. I am familiar with the passage....however...it would seem to me to still present a condundrum in terms of this conversation. In that, this passage also speaks heavily of things we DO after we recieve grace. For example:

The New Life
Now this I say and testify in the Lord, that you must no longer walk as the Gentiles do, in the futility of their minds. They are darkened in their understanding, alienated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them, due to their hardness of heart. They have become callous and have given themselves up to sensuality, greedy to practice every kind of impurity. But that is not the way you learned Christ!— assuming that you have heard about him and were taught in him, as the truth is in Jesus, to put off your old self, which belongs to your former manner of life and is corrupt through deceitful desires, and to be renewed in the spirit of your minds, and to put on the new self, created after the likeness of God in true righteousness and holiness.
Therefore, having put away falsehood, let each one of you speak the truth with his neighbor, for we are members one of another. Be angry and do not sin; do not let the sun go down on your anger, and give no opportunity to the devil. Let the thief no longer steal, but rather let him labor, doing honest work with his own hands, so that he may have something to share with anyone in need. Let no corrupting talk come out of your mouths, but only such as is good for building up, as fits the occasion, that it may give grace to those who hear. And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice. Be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, as God in Christ forgave you. -Ephesians 4:17–32

These things are day by day things. Things that we must walk in. Often by the help of the Spirit, who made us new in the first place. But still, there is, within this passage and most others, a clear emphasis on the Christian walk, that race that must be run. My initial question and point was that the OP seemed like there was no walk. That the walk, like salvation, was completely up to God. That once Christ was 'in' us, we could sit back and enjoy the ride, so to speak. And I was: 1)unsure if this is what the OP was actually trying to convey, and 2)stressing the fact that if it was, it was definately not what scripture teaches.

 

[Naomi25]

Yea I know I'm kind of a nerd sometimes :) the main point is it is Christ as the doer now. What ever you are doing, as a Christian according to scripture you can see it as christ your life. Your home life, your Christian life, whatever we are doing in life. It is Christ in you the hope of glory that is the life and the believer is an expression of that life. The two have become one, the twain have become one in spirit and one in mind to live. Out of that life Christians become everything they were created to be, it is just a new life, with the old life dead. New creation the bible calls it, Christ in you. That has reference to two people, Christ in you! Getting those two compatible for living out a new life is what the gospel does.
And by the way, I think that is a word. Oh well I make up words all the time, and my punctuation forget it.

Ah...one nerd speaking to another nerd!
I think I sort of see what you are trying to say, but I'm not sure I fully agree with it...but it is difficult, because i'm working on my own foggy understanding of your vision! Here's how it pans out....I think you are saying that in the new birth, when scripture tells us that we are 'in Christ' and he is 'in us', you see that fairly literally. That essentially our new spirit and heart are one in Christ, as they are now united. Am I correct? And that therefore means that as we live, our lives will naturally become more like Christ...it would have to, our spirit, our desires, our hopes...are Christs spirit, desires and hopes. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
However, I see scripture painting us a different story. We will never BE Christ, as he is the God-man. We will always just be men. What happened on the cross was a substitutionary atonement, an exchange in legal status. It did not make Christ us, or us Christ, but it made us have Christ's legal status before God and Christ have ours. When God looks at us he sees the righteousness of Christ. That does not make us Christ...we did not, nor can not, live his perfect life...but we received it on the cross when he took the penalty of ours in that moment. That was the free gift...the exchange. Now...having recieved this gift, having been given a new heart and now being 'in' Christ, we still are not Christ. The idea of being 'in' Christ is not one of being in absolute union with him. Only the Trinity is in absolute union with each other. The idea of being 'in' Christ is like an envelope. Christ is the envelope, and we are the letter inside it. Where he goes, we go. His status is clearly our status, because where he goes...we go! We are still not the envelope, we are still the letter, but our whole being is surrounded and dependant upon that outside protection and determination of the envelope. We have given ourselves into it's keeping.
Which leads me to the Christian walk. The bible is replete with verses that speak towards it. Paul calls it 'the race' that we must run. It is definitely something that we must strive towards, and not something that we can just assume will happen to us. We have to want it, seek after it, be faithful in chasing it and beating back the devil's schemes to keep us from it. Even when living closely with the Spirit and being renewed daily in him we still must have a hand in our santification, our 'race'. Paul again uses the metaphor of an athlete, saying he disciplines his body and mind as a sportsman would. I think scripture is clear; salvation is a gift, sanctification is teamwork, between us and the Spirit.

 

[Jay Ross]

and to put on the new self

My question is, Is the translation of καινὸν, kainon, with respect to "age" or with respect to "freshness"? In other words, is the "new" self "brand new" with respect to its age, or is the "renewed/refurbished" self, that has been made fresh again by the working with the Holy Spirit as we slowly put on all of God's grace such that we live out of the Grace we have received in our daily lives as we rub shoulders with the people around us.

This requires an acceptance on our part of a new paradigm concerning the things of God and then the work out of that renewed paradigm in our daily lives.

We can repent and ask for God's salvation and His Grace, but if we do not change the fruit of our lives then how will we be judged. The athlete is not judged by winning the race, but on completing the race and is applauded for his finishing of his race.

God's grace abounds in us but unless we change all of us into His workmanship, then God's Grace may not amount to much in our lives.

Shalom

 

[Naomi25]

My question is, Is the translation of καινὸν, kainon, with respect to "age" or with respect to "freshness"? In other words, is the "new" self "brand new" with respect to its age, or is the "renewed/refurbished" self, that has been made fresh again by the working with the Holy Spirit as we slowly put on all of God's grace such that we live out of the Grace we have received in our daily lives as we rub shoulders with the people around us.

This requires an acceptance on our part of a new paradigm concerning the things of God and then the work out of that renewed paradigm in our daily lives.

We can repent and ask for God's salvation and His Grace, but if we do not change the fruit of our lives then how will we be judged. The athlete is not judged by winning the race, but on completing the race and is applauded for his finishing of his race.

God's grace abounds in us but unless we change all of us into His workmanship, then God's Grace may not amount to much in our lives.

Shalom

I'm not sure that our points are so divergent here.
One could, I suppose, argue for the self being made completely new...as in "I will give you a new heart and new spirit" (Ez 36:26), or even: "Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come." (2 Corinthians 5:17)
But, it's also valid to speak of renewal, as scripture often does. If I had to differentiate between the two I would say that 'the new' comes when salvation does; that is the act of regeneration. The 'renewal' is a day by day thing, in hand with the Holy Spirit; sanctification, a refreshing of ones mind and spirit in God in order to become more Christlike.
But yes, I would agree with you that it is our responsibility to work on our fruit. We shall certainly be judged for it, and it is thereby arguble that we are responsible for it. Fruit is something we consciously work on, strive for, day by day. It is made possible by the fact that we are a 'new man'...we now have that desire within us to seek the things of God and put to death that which is sinful. But by golly, it is a marathon! And yes, we must persevere to the end!

 

[farouk]

Maybe the difference of emphasis is between the Reformed and the dispensational?

(I think @Naomi25 is Reformed...)

 

[Jay Ross]

One could, I suppose, argue for the self being made completely new...as in "I will give you a new heart and new spirit" (Ez 36:26), or even: "Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come." (2 Corinthians 5:17)

We have had this discussion before, if my memory is still good. In both of the passages above that you quoted re, the understanding of the word "new" as it is found in the Scriptures. The Hebrew root word H:2319 as found in Ez 36:26 is derived from the Hebrew root word :2318, which has the meaning of: - primitive root; to be new; causatively, to rebuild, and is translated in the KJV as either renew or repair, such that H:2319 can be associated with the "new {status}" of the heart. Similarly with 2 Cort 5:17 the words translated as simply "new" in this verse is from the Greek root word G:2537 and I would paraphase this verse in this manner: -

Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he has become like a renewed creation. The old {personhood} has passed away; behold, all things have/{of the person has} become refreshed like new.​

The difference in our understanding might not be much, but the expression of God's desire for each and every person to be renewed into how He intended them to be from the beginning of time does not invalidate the person where he is at when he is confronted by God/Jesus. It is a process where both parties works on the reconstruction of the person and this takes time through the grace of God.

Shalom

 

[soul man]

Ah...one nerd speaking to another nerd!
I think I sort of see what you are trying to say, but I'm not sure I fully agree with it...but it is difficult, because i'm working on my own foggy understanding of your vision! Here's how it pans out....I think you are saying that in the new birth, when scripture tells us that we are 'in Christ' and he is 'in us', you see that fairly literally. That essentially our new spirit and heart are one in Christ, as they are now united. Am I correct? And that therefore means that as we live, our lives will naturally become more like Christ...it would have to, our spirit, our desires, our hopes...are Christs spirit, desires and hopes. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
However, I see scripture painting us a different story. We will never BE Christ, as he is the God-man. We will always just be men. What happened on the cross was a substitutionary atonement, an exchange in legal status. It did not make Christ us, or us Christ, but it made us have Christ's legal status before God and Christ have ours. When God looks at us he sees the righteousness of Christ. That does not make us Christ...we did not, nor can not, live his perfect life...but we received it on the cross when he took the penalty of ours in that moment. That was the free gift...the exchange. Now...having recieved this gift, having been given a new heart and now being 'in' Christ, we still are not Christ. The idea of being 'in' Christ is not one of being in absolute union with him. Only the Trinity is in absolute union with each other. The idea of being 'in' Christ is like an envelope. Christ is the envelope, and we are the letter inside it. Where he goes, we go. His status is clearly our status, because where he goes...we go! We are still not the envelope, we are still the letter, but our whole being is surrounded and dependant upon that outside protection and determination of the envelope. We have given ourselves into it's keeping.
Which leads me to the Christian walk. The bible is replete with verses that speak towards it. Paul calls it 'the race' that we must run. It is definitely something that we must strive towards, and not something that we can just assume will happen to us. We have to want it, seek after it, be faithful in chasing it and beating back the devil's schemes to keep us from it. Even when living closely with the Spirit and being renewed daily in him we still must have a hand in our santification, our 'race'. Paul again uses the metaphor of an athlete, saying he disciplines his body and mind as a sportsman would. I think scripture is clear; salvation is a gift, sanctification is teamwork, between us and the Spirit.

"I am crucified with Christ" that means you are going to do something to make room, if you will, for this new knowledge. That is paul saying "I am crucified," a conscience knowing of what has happened to him at the cross. I think we can back up a bit and see there is a particular time after Paul became a Christian that he had a revelation of the indwelling Christ. Everything we get from paul at that point comes from "the revelation of Jesus Christ," Galatians 1:11-12. He sees there is no seperation for the believer and Christ, and his ministry never sways from that knowledge once it is made known to him. He passes that on in all his epistles to be read and understood by all that read them, Ephesians 3:1-5. We get the information from Paul that he had a revelation of the indwelling Christ, Galatians 1:15-16, and his ministry now is to preach that revelation, which is Christ, which is the gospel, Galations 1:11-12. Now we know the same revelation exsists for every believer, and that the gospel establishes the believer.

 

[soul man]

Ah...one nerd speaking to another nerd!
I think I sort of see what you are trying to say, but I'm not sure I fully agree with it...but it is difficult, because i'm working on my own foggy understanding of your vision! Here's how it pans out

You know if we all would admit we have a fog in our understanding we might be better off.

I got one quick word on changing our old life. Quiting habits, someone is always coming to me needing to change their habits. Problem with that is Christ in you has no bad habits, how about seeing him as life, choose him over your mess and move on. No more laboring over the old crucified man. Trying to kill out a dead man already, very ironic. If people could really get a hold of what Paul had to say about Christianity, there would be no room for all the rehabs and therapy sessions and everything people go through. Sad deal is the church looks like the world sometime in this regard.

 

[farouk]

I'm not sure that our points are so divergent here.
One could, I suppose, argue for the self being made completely new...as in "I will give you a new heart and new spirit" (Ez 36:26), or even: "Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come." (2 Corinthians 5:17)
But, it's also valid to speak of renewal, as scripture often does. If I had to differentiate between the two I would say that 'the new' comes when salvation does; that is the act of regeneration. The 'renewal' is a day by day thing, in hand with the Holy Spirit; sanctification, a refreshing of ones mind and spirit in God in order to become more Christlike.
But yes, I would agree with you that it is our responsibility to work on our fruit. We shall certainly be judged for it, and it is thereby arguble that we are responsible for it. Fruit is something we consciously work on, strive for, day by day. It is made possible by the fact that we are a 'new man'...we now have that desire within us to seek the things of God and put to death that which is sinful. But by golly, it is a marathon! And yes, we must persevere to the end!

@Naomi25 I think in the gamut of contrast between the old and the new, spiritually, it comes across most starkly in Ephesians 2, in the first few verses.