Name a really bad doctrine that needs retiring

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OzSpen

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kepha31 said:
I would not go with Augustine or any ECF. They all supported the authority of the Church that harmonized with Scripture and Tradition, so your best approach (and the most popular) is to pit one against the other by taking quotes out of context, and ignoring the general consensus of the ECF.

"Sole authority of scripture" is not in scripture, and no rigorous defense of this man-made tradition has come forth. My position stands, and that is why you want to jump ship into purgatory. Fine.

'Biblical and historical refutation of purgatory'. is not a sound expose, it's full of lies and I can't be bothered spending several days countering it line by line. The site quotes a news rag about twitter, but the article has nothing to do with the sensational falsehood the author makes. "but Pope Francis actually offered time off purgatory to those who “follow him” on twitter " IS A LIE. The evidence is in the article he posted.

What needs to be retired is doctrinal anti-Semitism. Purgatory, in primitive form, is found in Judaism.
You are contradictory again:

'in Scripture are to be found all matters that concern faith and the manner of life' (Augustine, On Christian Doctrine, Book 2, Chapter 9).

Augustine: 'I have learned to yield this respect and honour only to the canonical books of Scripture: of these alone do I most firmly believe that the authors were completely free from error' (Augustine to Jerome, Letter 82, ch 1, #3)

Augustine: 'as I have said already, it is to the canonical Scriptures alone that I am bound to yield such implicit subjection as to follow their teaching, without admitting the slightest suspicion that in them any mistake or any statement intended to mislead could find a place' (Augustine to Jerome, Letter 82, ch 3, #24).


Augustine wrote: 'It is to the canonical Scriptures alone that I am bound to yield such implicit subjection'.

Augustine did NOT write, 'It is to the Church, Scripture and Tradition alone that I am bound to yield such implicit subjection'. He wrote:
It is to the canonical Scriptures alone that I am bound....

Notice the language: 'to the canonical Scriptures alone'.

Augustine was a supporter of sola Scriptura. This is where your denomination is out of step with Scripture and Augustine.

Oz
 

StanJ

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OzSpen said:
If we get back to the topic of this thread, naming a really bad doctrine that needs retiring, I've been trying to show from the church fathers, especially Augustine, that the authority of the church needs retiring and we need to get back to the sole authority of Scripture. That has met with some resistance from our RCC friend.

There is another doctrine that needs retiring to the 'improper doctrine' category and that is purgatory. Here you will find a sound expose: 'Biblical and historical refutation of purgatory'.

Oz
There will always be RCCs who resist truth because they have committed so many years to an institution of false teaching. Humans are compared to sheep for a very good reason. No matter how bad the shepherd is, they follow His voice. Gratefully I recognized and followed the Good Shepherd's voice!

Yes I agree...purgatory is another thing that needs to be eliminated. Heb 9:27....there is NO second chance.
 

epostle1

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OzSpen said:
You are contradictory again:

'in Scripture are to be found all matters that concern faith and the manner of life' (Augustine, On Christian Doctrine, Book 2, Chapter 9).

Augustine: 'I have learned to yield this respect and honour only to the canonical books of Scripture: of these alone do I most firmly believe that the authors were completely free from error' (Augustine to Jerome, Letter 82, ch 1, #3)

Augustine: 'as I have said already, it is to the canonical Scriptures alone that I am bound to yield such implicit subjection as to follow their teaching, without admitting the slightest suspicion that in them any mistake or any statement intended to mislead could find a place' (Augustine to Jerome, Letter 82, ch 3, #24).


Augustine wrote: 'It is to the canonical Scriptures alone that I am bound to yield such implicit subjection'.

Augustine did NOT write, 'It is to the Church, Scripture and Tradition alone that I am bound to yield such implicit subjection'. He wrote:
It is to the canonical Scriptures alone that I am bound....

Notice the language: 'to the canonical Scriptures alone'.

Augustine was a supporter of sola Scriptura. This is where your denomination is out of step with Scripture and Augustine.

Oz
Post #210, page 7. Your assertions were refuted and you are just repeating yourself.

Explain why you accept out-of-context snippets of Augustine but reject everything else he taught???
 

OzSpen

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StanJ said:
There will always be RCCs who resist truth because they have committed so many years to an institution of false teaching. Humans are compared to sheep for a very good reason. No matter how bad the shepherd is, they follow His voice. Gratefully I recognized and followed the Good Shepherd's voice!

Yes I agree...purgatory is another thing that needs to be eliminated. Heb 9:27....there is NO second chance.
Stan,

You have given one excellent verse of what happens to people at death according to Heb 9:27 (NIV), 'Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment'. At death, bodily life ceases and there is a separation of the soul from the body. When Paul thinks about death he says, “We would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord” (2 Cor 5:8). This is not talking about a purgatory where there is a cleansing of souls after death. At death, there is a desire “to depart and be with Christ, for that is far better” (Phil 1.23). Not a desire to depart and go to purgatory!

And Jesus said to the thief who was dying on the cross next to him, “Today you will be with me in paradise” (Lk 23:43). He did not stated that 'Today you will come to paradise where you will suffer and your sins will be expiated before going to heaven. The author of Hebrews says that when Christians come together to worship they come not only into the presence of God in heaven, but also into the presence of “the spirits of just men made perfect” (Heb 12:23). But God will not leave our dead bodies in the earth forever, for when Christ returns the souls of believers will be reunited with their bodies, their bodies will be raised from the dead, and they will live with Christ eternally (1 Cor 15:50-58 ESV).

The doctrine of purgatory is not taught in the 66 books of Scripture. In fact, it is contrary to the verses that I've just quoted. The Roman Catholic Church has found support for this doctrine, not in the pages of canonical Scriptures Protestants have accepted it since the Reformation, but in the writings of the Apocrypha, particularly in 2 Maccabees 12:42–45 (RSV):

[Judas Maccabeus, the leader of the Jewish forces] also took a collection, man by man, to the amount of 2,000 drachmas of silver, and sent it to Jerusalem to provide for a sin offering. In doing this he acted very well and honorably, taking into account the resurrection. For if he were not expecting that those who had fallen would rise again, it would have been superfluous and foolish to pray for the dead. But if he was looking to the splendid reward that is laid up for those who fall asleep in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Therefore he made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin.
Here it is clear that prayer for the dead is approved, and also making an offering to God to deliver the dead from their sin.

But in response it must be said that this literature is not equal to Scripture in authority, and should not be taken as an authoritative source of doctrine. Why? It contradicts the statements from Scripture about departing and being with Christ quoted above, and thereby opposes the clear teaching of New Testament Scripture. Furthermore, when it talks about the offering of Judas making “atonement for the dead”, it contradicts the explicit teaching of the New Testament that Christ alone made atonement for us (1 Peter 2:24 NIV).

This passage in 2 Maccabees is difficult to square even with Roman Catholic teaching because it teaches that soldiers who had died in the mortal sin of idolatry (which cannot be forgiven, according to Roman Catholic teaching) should have prayers and sacrifices offered for them with the possibility that they will be delivered from their suffering.

All I can say is that purgatory is an extra-biblical and non-Christian doctrine that was invented by the Roman Catholic Church from the Apocrypha and tradition. It conflicts with Scripture. This is another example of the need for the biblical teaching of Scripture alone as being 'God breathed' (2 Tim 3:16 ESV).

Oz
 

OzSpen

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kepha31 said:
I would not go with Augustine or any ECF. They all supported the authority of the Church that harmonized with Scripture and Tradition, so your best approach (and the most popular) is to pit one against the other by taking quotes out of context, and ignoring the general consensus of the ECF.

"Sole authority of scripture" is not in scripture, and no rigorous defense of this man-made tradition has come forth. My position stands, and that is why you want to jump ship into purgatory. Fine.

'Biblical and historical refutation of purgatory'. is not a sound expose, it's full of lies and I can't be bothered spending several days countering it line by line. The site quotes a news rag about twitter, but the article has nothing to do with the sensational falsehood the author makes. "but Pope Francis actually offered time off purgatory to those who “follow him” on twitter " IS A LIE. The evidence is in the article he posted.

What needs to be retired is doctrinal anti-Semitism. Purgatory, in primitive form, is found in Judaism.
Kepha,

You are misrepresenting Augustine. No matter how often I repeat it, you refuse to acknowledge the content of what he wrote. Let me give it one more time:
Augustine: 'as I have said already, it is to the canonical Scriptures alone that I am bound to yield such implicit subjection as to follow their teaching, without admitting the slightest suspicion that in them any mistake or any statement intended to mislead could find a place' (Augustine to Jerome, Letter 82, ch 3, #24).
Do you get it? It is to the 'Scriptures alone' that Augustine is subject. He cannot agree with the authority of the church ALONE and the authority of Scriptures ALONE. He didn't! It was to the Scriptures alone to which he submitted his life - the teaching of Scriptures ALONE.

I will not interact with you further on this topic because your RCC has caused you to be blinded to the exact content of what Augustine wrote.

Bye, bye,
Oz :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
 

epostle1

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OzSpen said:
Kepha,

You are misrepresenting Augustine. No matter how often I repeat it, you refuse to acknowledge the content of what he wrote. Let me give it one more time:

Do you get it? It is to the 'Scriptures alone' that Augustine is subject. He cannot agree with the authority of the church ALONE and the authority of Scriptures ALONE. He didn't! It was to the Scriptures alone to which he submitted his life - the teaching of Scriptures ALONE.

I will not interact with you further on this topic because your RCC has caused you to be blinded to the exact content of what Augustine wrote.

Bye, bye,
Oz :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
<sigh> scripture alone is not the subject, and you don't care what Augustine taught, and you have no context.

In the paragraph immediately preceding the cited text, St. Augustine is discussing with St. Jerome the fittingness of using the word ludamus(“let us amuse ourselves”) in their debate over the interpretation of Scripture. Augustine says that it is good that they keep their debate in a friendly tone, so that there is no fear of offending one other by harsh words. But he goes on to say that he would not be offended if Jerome argued against him, for it is not to Jerome the man but to the Scriptures that Augustine yields authority in these matters. The complete quotation reads:

“You ask, or rather you give a command with the confiding boldness of charity, that we should amuse ourselves in the field of Scripture without wounding each other…On such terms we might amuse ourselves without fear of offending each other in the field of Scripture, but I might well wonder if the amusement was not at my expense. For I confess to your Charity that I have learned to yield this respect and honor only to the canonical books of Scripture: of these alone do I most firmly believe that the authors were completely free from error” (Letter 82:1, 2-3).

So we see, Augustine is not setting up an opposition between Church Tradition and Sacred Scripture; he is merely saying that if it comes down to taking the word of Jerome, another bishop just as himself, or the Scriptures, he will yield to the Scriptures instead of to the opinions of a private theologian. This is still the Church’s position today: Church dogma, whether it is found in Scripture or Tradition, trumps the views of private theologians.

As is often the case, the problem is one of context. When we read the entirety of St. Augustine’s letter, we see that he is saying nothing at all about the authority of Scriptures at the expense of Church Tradition or Church authority. He merely asserts that the Bible is to be preferred to the opinions of a private individual, which the Church would agree with.


The problem is that you attempt to use this citation to debunk the Catholic position and you don't really care what Augustine is getting at; you have no intention of understanding the subtleties of Augustine's thought, only of attacking the Catholic position. A verse that seems to support the Protestant position is found and then wrenched out of context to be used against the unknowing Catholic.

Furthermore, if Protestants do insist that St. Augustine was really a proto-reformer, then they picked a very bad choice, because it was this same Augustine who said of the Catholic Church,


“This same is the holy Church, the one Church, the true Church, the catholic Church, fighting against all heresies: fight, it can: be fought down, it cannot. As for heresies, they went all out of it, like as unprofitable branches pruned from the vine: but itself abides in its root, in its Vine, in its charity. "The gates of hell shall not prevail against it"
(On the Creed: Sermon to Catechumens (14) c. 395)

When one really takes the time to dig into the works of Augustine, or any of the Church Fathers, it becomes easily apparent that they did not believe in anything even close to the Protestant notion sola scriptura. Don’t be taken in by the novel idea that Augustine, Anasthasius or any of the Church Fathers believed in the doctrines of Luther and Calvin. It simply isn’t so.

You accept a few words of Augustine, yet you reject everything else he said. It's senseless cherry picking.

"But when proper words make Scripture ambiguous, we must see in the first place that there is nothing wrong in our punctuation or pronunciation. Accordingly, if, when attention is given to the passage, it shall appear to be uncertain in what way it ought to be punctuated or pronounced, let the reader consult the rule of faith which he has gathered from the plainer passages of Scripture, and from the authority of the Church, and of which I treated at sufficient length when I was speaking in the first book about things."
Augustine, On Christian Doctrine, 3,2:2 (A.D. 397).

You don't like this quote so you ignore it. Here are more quotes for you to ignore:

"Peter bore the person of the church.”
Augustine, Sermon 149:7 (inter A.D. 391-430).

“Number the priests even from that seat of Peter. And in that order of fathers see to whom succeeded: that is the rock which the proud gates of hades do not conquer.”
Augustine, Psalmus contro Partem Donati (A.D. 393).

“We must hold to the Christian religion and to communication in her Church, which is Catholic and which is called Catholic not only by her own members but even by all her enemies. For when heretics or the adherents of schisms talk about her, not among themselves but with strangers, willy-nilly they call her nothing else but Catholic. For they will not be understood unless they distinguish her by this name which the whole world employs in her regard.”
Augustine, The True Religion, 7:12 (A.D. 390).

“Inasmuch, I repeat, as this is the case, we believe also in the Holy Church, [intending thereby] assuredly the Catholic. For both heretics and schismatics style their congregations churches. But heretics, in holding false opinions regarding God, do injury to the faith itself; while schismatics, on the other hand, in wicked separations break off from brotherly charity, although they may believe just what we believe. Wherefore neither do the heretics belong to the Church catholic, which loves God; nor do the schismatics form a part of the same.”
Augustine, On Faith and Creed, 10:21 (A.D. 393).

"For in the Catholic Church, not to speak of the purest wisdom, to the knowledge of which a few spiritual, men attain in this life…--not to speak of this wisdom, which you do not believe to be in the Catholic Church, there are many other things which most justly keep me in her bosom. The consent of peoples and nations…so does her authority…the succession of priests…[a]nd so, lastly, does the name itself of Catholic, which, not without reason, amid so many heresies, the Church has thus retained; so that, though all heretics wish to be called Catholics, yet when a stranger asks where the Catholic Church meets, no heretic will venture to point to his own chapel or house. Such then in number and importance are the precious ties belonging to the Christian name which keep a believer in the Catholic Church…Now if the truth is so clearly proved as to leave no possibility of doubt, it must be set before all the things that keep me in the Catholic Church…For my part, I should not believe the gospel except as moved by the authority of the Catholic Church…for it was through the Catholics that I got my faith in it; and so, whatever you bring from the gospel will no longer have any weight with me. Wherefore, if no clear proof of the apostleship of Manichaeus is found in the gospel, I will believe the Catholics rather than you."
Augustine, Against the Epistle of Manichaeus, 4:5,5:6 (A.D 397).

"You think that you make a very acute remark when you affirm the name Catholic to mean universal, not in respect to the communion as embracing the whole world, but in respect to the observance of all Divine precepts and of all the sacraments, as if we (even accepting the position that the Church is called Catholic because it honestly holds the whole truth, of which fragments here and there are found in some heresies) rested upon the testimony of this word's signification, and not upon the promises of God, and so many indisputable testimonies of the truth itself, our demonstration of the existence of the Church of God in all nations."
Augustine, To Vincent the Rogatist, 93:7,23 (A.D. 403).

"As to those other things which we hold on the authority, not of Scripture, but of tradition, and which are observed throughout the whole world, it may be understood that they are held as approved and instituted either by the apostles themselves, or by plenary Councils, whose authority in the Church is most useful, e.g. the annual commemoration, by special solemnities, of the Lord's passion, resurrection, and ascension, and of the descent of the Holy Spirit from heaven, and whatever else is in like manner observed by the whole Church wherever it has been established."
Augustine, To Januarius, Epistle 54:1 (A.D. 400).

"[H]e, I say, abundantly shows that he was most willing to correct his own opinion, if any one should prove to him that it is as certain that the baptism of Christ can be given by those who have strayed from the fold, as that it could not he lost when they strayed; on which subject we have already said much. Nor should we ourselves venture to assert anything of the kind, were we not supported by the unanimous authority of the whole Church, to which he himself would unquestionably have yielded, if at that time the truth of this question had been placed beyond dispute by the investigation and decree of a plenary Council. For if he quotes Peter as an example for his allowing himself quietly and peacefully to be corrected by one junior colleague, how much more readily would he himself, with the Council of his province, have yielded to the authority of the whole world, when the truth had been thus brought to light?"
Augustine, On Baptism against the Donatist, 2:5 (A.D. 401).

"What the custom of the Church has always held, what this argument has failed to prove false, and what a plenary Council has confirmed, this we follow!" Augustine, On Baptism against the Donatist, 4:10 (A.D. 401).

"There is not, however, such narrowness in the moral excellence of the Catholic Church as that I should limit my praise of it to the life of those here mentioned. For how many bishops have I known most excellent and holy men, how many, presbyters, how many deacons, and ministers of all kinds of the divine sacraments, whose virtue seems to me more admirable and more worthy of commendation on account of the greater difficulty of preserving it amidst the manifold varieties of men, and in this life of turmoil!"
Augustine, On the Morals of the Catholic Church, 69 (A.D. 388).

"Through my most beloved son Laurentius, the presbyter, and Peter the monk, I received thy Fraternity's letter, in which thou hast been at pains to question me on many points…Augustine's first question. I ask, most blessed father, concerning bishops, how they should live with their clergy: And concerning the offerings of the faithful which are received at the altars, both into what portions they should be divided, and how the bishop ought to deal with them in the Church. Answer of St. Gregory, Pope of the City of Rome. Holy Scripture, which no doubt thou knowest well, bears witness, and especially the epistles of the blessed Paul to Timothy, in which he studied to instruct him how he ought to behave himself in the house of God. Now it is the custom of the Apostolic See to deliver an injunction to bishops when ordained, that of all emoluments that come in four divisions should be made: to wit, one for the bishop and his household on account of hospitality and entertainment; another for the clergy; a third for the poor; and a fourth for the reparation of Churches.”
Pope Gregory the Great [regn A.D. 590-604], To Augustine, Epistle 64 (A.D. 595).

"Petilianus said: 'If you declare that yon hold the Catholic Church, the word 'catholic' is merely the Greek equivalent for entire or whole. But it is clear that you are not in the whole, because you have gone aside into the part.' Augustine answered: I too indeed have attained to a very slight knowledge of the Greek language, scarcely to be called knowledge at all, yet I am not shameless in saying that I know that means not 'one,' but 'the whole;' and that means "according to the whole:" whence the Catholic Church received its name, according to the saying of the Lord, 'It is not for you to know the times, which the Father hath put in His own power. But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in Judea, and in Samaria, and even in the whole earth.' Here you have the origin of the name 'Catholic.'
Augustine, Answer to Letters of Petilian, 2:38 [90] (A.D. 400).


St. Augustine and Sola Scriptura

Did St. Augustine believe in sola Scriptura?
Because Augustine held the Scriptures in high esteem and venerated them as an inerrant authority for the Church, many Protestant theologians and apologists have quoted him as a support for the notion of sola Scriptura. In his famous Letter to Jerome (no. 82 ca. 405) Augustine says:
Augustine goes on to contrast this infallible authority of the canonical Scriptures with other writings about the same subjects:
I have learned to yield this respect and honor only to the canonical books of Scripture: of these alone do I most firmly believe that the authors were completely free from error. And if in these writings I am perplexed by anything which appears to me opposed to truth, I do not hesitate to suppose that either the manuscript is faulty, or the translator has not caught the meaning of what was said, or I myself have failed to understand it.

Advocates of sola Scriptura like to point out that Augustine even uses the Protestant phrase in the first sentence (solis eis Scripturarum libris “to the books of Scripture alone”) which supports their contention that the great Bishop of Hippo embraced sola Scriptura.

This is a case where careful reading of documents is of paramount importance. (which Oz doesn't care about) The contexts of Augustine’s comments and those of Reformers in the sixteenth century are quite different, not only in time, but in substance.

Protestants contrasted the absolute authority of Scripture and what they considered the unjust authority of tradition or the magisterium of the Church. For them, the Scriptures alone were the proper source from which Christian doctrine and morals should be extracted. To add the authority of the Church was to undermine God’s authority by adding human authority to it.

But in Augustine’s arguments with Jerome ten centuries earlier, the issue was not about the authority of the canonical Scriptures taken as a whole — Jerome himself affirmed that — but whether one should allow historical mistakes within Scripture. When Paul writes of Peter in Galatians 2:14 he did not act in accord with “the truth of the gospel,” Jerome had supposed that Paul had made a mistake in his writing. Augustine, in the quotations above, is affirming that the Scriptures are inerrant, not that they are the sole authority. Other writings may err but not the Scriptures.

Still, a Protestant may say that even this lesser affirmation by Augustine means that he believed that Church tradition, writings of the Fathers, and Church councils could err while the Scriptures alone could not. They therefore could be the only source of absolute truth for the Church. So the Protestant Reformers saw themselves as justified in appealing to Augustine. And if one limits himself to a few select quotations from Augustine’s writings, that may seem to be true, a fact which would explain how generations of Protestants could see themselves as faithful to the Bishop of Hippo.

Sola Scriptura as a Problem of Interpretation
Many contemporary apologists, both Catholic and Protestant, have limited their debate about the sole authority of Scripture to affirmations or denials about the Scriptures taken as a whole, prior to any interpretation by an individual or the Church. In this framing of the question, Catholic apologists often cite Church Fathers who affirm the necessity of both Scripture and Tradition. And there is an abundance of such texts to be had. Augustine, however, did not face the problem in that form. Rather, his life and work had more to do with how to interpret the Scriptures in the light of schisms and heresies all around him. Three examples in his lifetime were Manicheanism, Donatism, and what may be called simplistic literalism.
In his disputes with Faustus the Manichean bishop, Augustine insisted on the absolute authority of the canonical Scriptures against Faustus’s claim that there were later writings of equal authority.
Attending carefully to the wording of this statement reveals three important truths in Augustine’s thinking. Manichean writings (“books of later writers”) cannot be held as of equal authority with the Bible because they lack the confirmation of the historic Church (“through the succession of bishops and the propagation of churches”).

Here Augustine says that the Church is the protector of Scripture’s integrity. (which Oz doesn't like)When he invokes the imagery of a seat, Augustine means the Church as an authority. It is to this seat that every believing Christian must live in obedience. While the Scriptures rightly command the assent and obedience of every Christian, the same Scriptures can only be known by their derivation from and connection with the historic Church.

The excellence of the canonical authority of the Old and New Testaments is distinct from the books of later writers. This authority was confirmed in the times of the Apostles through the succession of bishops and the propagation of churches, as if it was settled in a heavenly manner in a kind of seat to which every believing and pious mind lives in obedience. (Against Faustus, 11.5)

read more here
 

mjrhealth

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Kepha making your posts longer doesnt make tham any righter, a lie is a lie no matter how you colour it. we only need to agree with Christ not your church or your religion nor any other religion for that matter.
 

OzSpen

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Kepha,

You have dished up another red herring logical fallacy.


kepha31 said:
<sigh> scripture alone is not the subject, and you don't care what Augustine taught, and you have no context.

In the paragraph immediately preceding the cited text, St. Augustine is discussing with St. Jerome the fittingness of using the word ludamus(“let us amuse ourselves”) in their debate over the interpretation of Scripture. Augustine says that it is good that they keep their debate in a friendly tone, so that there is no fear of offending one other by harsh words. But he goes on to say that he would not be offended if Jerome argued against him, for it is not to Jerome the man but to the Scriptures that Augustine yields authority in these matters. The complete quotation reads:

“You ask, or rather you give a command with the confiding boldness of charity, that we should amuse ourselves in the field of Scripture without wounding each other…On such terms we might amuse ourselves without fear of offending each other in the field of Scripture, but I might well wonder if the amusement was not at my expense. For I confess to your Charity that I have learned to yield this respect and honor only to the canonical books of Scripture: of these alone do I most firmly believe that the authors were completely free from error” (Letter 82:1, 2-3).

So we see, Augustine is not setting up an opposition between Church Tradition and Sacred Scripture; he is merely saying that if it comes down to taking the word of Jerome, another bishop just as himself, or the Scriptures, he will yield to the Scriptures instead of to the opinions of a private theologian. This is still the Church’s position today: Church dogma, whether it is found in Scripture or Tradition, trumps the views of private theologians.

As is often the case, the problem is one of context. When we read the entirety of St. Augustine’s letter, we see that he is saying nothing at all about the authority of Scriptures at the expense of Church Tradition or Church authority. He merely asserts that the Bible is to be preferred to the opinions of a private individual, which the Church would agree with.


The problem is that you attempt to use this citation to debunk the Catholic position and you don't really care what Augustine is getting at; you have no intention of understanding the subtleties of Augustine's thought, only of attacking the Catholic position. A verse that seems to support the Protestant position is found and then wrenched out of context to be used against the unknowing Catholic.

Furthermore, if Protestants do insist that St. Augustine was really a proto-reformer, then they picked a very bad choice, because it was this same Augustine who said of the Catholic Church,


“This same is the holy Church, the one Church, the true Church, the catholic Church, fighting against all heresies: fight, it can: be fought down, it cannot. As for heresies, they went all out of it, like as unprofitable branches pruned from the vine: but itself abides in its root, in its Vine, in its charity. "The gates of hell shall not prevail against it"
(On the Creed: Sermon to Catechumens (14) c. 395)

When one really takes the time to dig into the works of Augustine, or any of the Church Fathers, it becomes easily apparent that they did not believe in anything even close to the Protestant notion sola scriptura. Don’t be taken in by the novel idea that Augustine, Anasthasius or any of the Church Fathers believed in the doctrines of Luther and Calvin. It simply isn’t so.

You accept a few words of Augustine, yet you reject everything else he said. It's senseless cherry picking.

"But when proper words make Scripture ambiguous, we must see in the first place that there is nothing wrong in our punctuation or pronunciation. Accordingly, if, when attention is given to the passage, it shall appear to be uncertain in what way it ought to be punctuated or pronounced, let the reader consult the rule of faith which he has gathered from the plainer passages of Scripture, and from the authority of the Church, and of which I treated at sufficient length when I was speaking in the first book about things."
Augustine, On Christian Doctrine, 3,2:2 (A.D. 397).

You don't like this quote so you ignore it. Here are more quotes for you to ignore:

"Peter bore the person of the church.”
Augustine, Sermon 149:7 (inter A.D. 391-430).

“Number the priests even from that seat of Peter. And in that order of fathers see to whom succeeded: that is the rock which the proud gates of hades do not conquer.”
Augustine, Psalmus contro Partem Donati (A.D. 393).

“We must hold to the Christian religion and to communication in her Church, which is Catholic and which is called Catholic not only by her own members but even by all her enemies. For when heretics or the adherents of schisms talk about her, not among themselves but with strangers, willy-nilly they call her nothing else but Catholic. For they will not be understood unless they distinguish her by this name which the whole world employs in her regard.”
Augustine, The True Religion, 7:12 (A.D. 390).

“Inasmuch, I repeat, as this is the case, we believe also in the Holy Church, [intending thereby] assuredly the Catholic. For both heretics and schismatics style their congregations churches. But heretics, in holding false opinions regarding God, do injury to the faith itself; while schismatics, on the other hand, in wicked separations break off from brotherly charity, although they may believe just what we believe. Wherefore neither do the heretics belong to the Church catholic, which loves God; nor do the schismatics form a part of the same.”
Augustine, On Faith and Creed, 10:21 (A.D. 393).

"For in the Catholic Church, not to speak of the purest wisdom, to the knowledge of which a few spiritual, men attain in this life…--not to speak of this wisdom, which you do not believe to be in the Catholic Church, there are many other things which most justly keep me in her bosom. The consent of peoples and nations…so does her authority…the succession of priests…[a]nd so, lastly, does the name itself of Catholic, which, not without reason, amid so many heresies, the Church has thus retained; so that, though all heretics wish to be called Catholics, yet when a stranger asks where the Catholic Church meets, no heretic will venture to point to his own chapel or house. Such then in number and importance are the precious ties belonging to the Christian name which keep a believer in the Catholic Church…Now if the truth is so clearly proved as to leave no possibility of doubt, it must be set before all the things that keep me in the Catholic Church…For my part, I should not believe the gospel except as moved by the authority of the Catholic Church…for it was through the Catholics that I got my faith in it; and so, whatever you bring from the gospel will no longer have any weight with me. Wherefore, if no clear proof of the apostleship of Manichaeus is found in the gospel, I will believe the Catholics rather than you."
Augustine, Against the Epistle of Manichaeus, 4:5,5:6 (A.D 397).

"You think that you make a very acute remark when you affirm the name Catholic to mean universal, not in respect to the communion as embracing the whole world, but in respect to the observance of all Divine precepts and of all the sacraments, as if we (even accepting the position that the Church is called Catholic because it honestly holds the whole truth, of which fragments here and there are found in some heresies) rested upon the testimony of this word's signification, and not upon the promises of God, and so many indisputable testimonies of the truth itself, our demonstration of the existence of the Church of God in all nations."
Augustine, To Vincent the Rogatist, 93:7,23 (A.D. 403).

"As to those other things which we hold on the authority, not of Scripture, but of tradition, and which are observed throughout the whole world, it may be understood that they are held as approved and instituted either by the apostles themselves, or by plenary Councils, whose authority in the Church is most useful, e.g. the annual commemoration, by special solemnities, of the Lord's passion, resurrection, and ascension, and of the descent of the Holy Spirit from heaven, and whatever else is in like manner observed by the whole Church wherever it has been established."
Augustine, To Januarius, Epistle 54:1 (A.D. 400).

"[H]e, I say, abundantly shows that he was most willing to correct his own opinion, if any one should prove to him that it is as certain that the baptism of Christ can be given by those who have strayed from the fold, as that it could not he lost when they strayed; on which subject we have already said much. Nor should we ourselves venture to assert anything of the kind, were we not supported by the unanimous authority of the whole Church, to which he himself would unquestionably have yielded, if at that time the truth of this question had been placed beyond dispute by the investigation and decree of a plenary Council. For if he quotes Peter as an example for his allowing himself quietly and peacefully to be corrected by one junior colleague, how much more readily would he himself, with the Council of his province, have yielded to the authority of the whole world, when the truth had been thus brought to light?"
Augustine, On Baptism against the Donatist, 2:5 (A.D. 401).

"What the custom of the Church has always held, what this argument has failed to prove false, and what a plenary Council has confirmed, this we follow!" Augustine, On Baptism against the Donatist, 4:10 (A.D. 401).

"There is not, however, such narrowness in the moral excellence of the Catholic Church as that I should limit my praise of it to the life of those here mentioned. For how many bishops have I known most excellent and holy men, how many, presbyters, how many deacons, and ministers of all kinds of the divine sacraments, whose virtue seems to me more admirable and more worthy of commendation on account of the greater difficulty of preserving it amidst the manifold varieties of men, and in this life of turmoil!"
Augustine, On the Morals of the Catholic Church, 69 (A.D. 388).

"Through my most beloved son Laurentius, the presbyter, and Peter the monk, I received thy Fraternity's letter, in which thou hast been at pains to question me on many points…Augustine's first question. I ask, most blessed father, concerning bishops, how they should live with their clergy: And concerning the offerings of the faithful which are received at the altars, both into what portions they should be divided, and how the bishop ought to deal with them in the Church. Answer of St. Gregory, Pope of the City of Rome. Holy Scripture, which no doubt thou knowest well, bears witness, and especially the epistles of the blessed Paul to Timothy, in which he studied to instruct him how he ought to behave himself in the house of God. Now it is the custom of the Apostolic See to deliver an injunction to bishops when ordained, that of all emoluments that come in four divisions should be made: to wit, one for the bishop and his household on account of hospitality and entertainment; another for the clergy; a third for the poor; and a fourth for the reparation of Churches.”
Pope Gregory the Great [regn A.D. 590-604], To Augustine, Epistle 64 (A.D. 595).

"Petilianus said: 'If you declare that yon hold the Catholic Church, the word 'catholic' is merely the Greek equivalent for entire or whole. But it is clear that you are not in the whole, because you have gone aside into the part.' Augustine answered: I too indeed have attained to a very slight knowledge of the Greek language, scarcely to be called knowledge at all, yet I am not shameless in saying that I know that means not 'one,' but 'the whole;' and that means "according to the whole:" whence the Catholic Church received its name, according to the saying of the Lord, 'It is not for you to know the times, which the Father hath put in His own power. But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in Judea, and in Samaria, and even in the whole earth.' Here you have the origin of the name 'Catholic.'
Augustine, Answer to Letters of Petilian, 2:38 [90] (A.D. 400).


St. Augustine and Sola Scriptura

Did St. Augustine believe in sola Scriptura?
Because Augustine held the Scriptures in high esteem and venerated them as an inerrant authority for the Church, many Protestant theologians and apologists have quoted him as a support for the notion of sola Scriptura. In his famous Letter to Jerome (no. 82 ca. 405) Augustine says:
Augustine goes on to contrast this infallible authority of the canonical Scriptures with other writings about the same subjects:
I have learned to yield this respect and honor only to the canonical books of Scripture: of these alone do I most firmly believe that the authors were completely free from error. And if in these writings I am perplexed by anything which appears to me opposed to truth, I do not hesitate to suppose that either the manuscript is faulty, or the translator has not caught the meaning of what was said, or I myself have failed to understand it.

Advocates of sola Scriptura like to point out that Augustine even uses the Protestant phrase in the first sentence (solis eis Scripturarum libris “to the books of Scripture alone”) which supports their contention that the great Bishop of Hippo embraced sola Scriptura.

This is a case where careful reading of documents is of paramount importance. (which Oz doesn't care about) The contexts of Augustine’s comments and those of Reformers in the sixteenth century are quite different, not only in time, but in substance.

Protestants contrasted the absolute authority of Scripture and what they considered the unjust authority of tradition or the magisterium of the Church. For them, the Scriptures alone were the proper source from which Christian doctrine and morals should be extracted. To add the authority of the Church was to undermine God’s authority by adding human authority to it.

But in Augustine’s arguments with Jerome ten centuries earlier, the issue was not about the authority of the canonical Scriptures taken as a whole — Jerome himself affirmed that — but whether one should allow historical mistakes within Scripture. When Paul writes of Peter in Galatians 2:14 he did not act in accord with “the truth of the gospel,” Jerome had supposed that Paul had made a mistake in his writing. Augustine, in the quotations above, is affirming that the Scriptures are inerrant, not that they are the sole authority. Other writings may err but not the Scriptures.

Still, a Protestant may say that even this lesser affirmation by Augustine means that he believed that Church tradition, writings of the Fathers, and Church councils could err while the Scriptures alone could not. They therefore could be the only source of absolute truth for the Church. So the Protestant Reformers saw themselves as justified in appealing to Augustine. And if one limits himself to a few select quotations from Augustine’s writings, that may seem to be true, a fact which would explain how generations of Protestants could see themselves as faithful to the Bishop of Hippo.

Sola Scriptura as a Problem of Interpretation
Many contemporary apologists, both Catholic and Protestant, have limited their debate about the sole authority of Scripture to affirmations or denials about the Scriptures taken as a whole, prior to any interpretation by an individual or the Church. In this framing of the question, Catholic apologists often cite Church Fathers who affirm the necessity of both Scripture and Tradition. And there is an abundance of such texts to be had. Augustine, however, did not face the problem in that form. Rather, his life and work had more to do with how to interpret the Scriptures in the light of schisms and heresies all around him. Three examples in his lifetime were Manicheanism, Donatism, and what may be called simplistic literalism.
In his disputes with Faustus the Manichean bishop, Augustine insisted on the absolute authority of the canonical Scriptures against Faustus’s claim that there were later writings of equal authority.
Attending carefully to the wording of this statement reveals three important truths in Augustine’s thinking. Manichean writings (“books of later writers”) cannot be held as of equal authority with the Bible because they lack the confirmation of the historic Church (“through the succession of bishops and the propagation of churches”).

Here Augustine says that the Church is the protector of Scripture’s integrity. (which Oz doesn't like)When he invokes the imagery of a seat, Augustine means the Church as an authority. It is to this seat that every believing Christian must live in obedience. While the Scriptures rightly command the assent and obedience of every Christian, the same Scriptures can only be known by their derivation from and connection with the historic Church.

The excellence of the canonical authority of the Old and New Testaments is distinct from the books of later writers. This authority was confirmed in the times of the Apostles through the succession of bishops and the propagation of churches, as if it was settled in a heavenly manner in a kind of seat to which every believing and pious mind lives in obedience. (Against Faustus, 11.5)

read more here
 

epostle1

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OzSpen said:
Kepha,

You have dished up another red herring logical fallacy.
You cannot prove Augustine uses the term "scripture alone" the same way Martin Luther did. Until you can prove Augustine pits "scripture alone" against the Church and Tradition, the way Martin Luther uses the term "scripture alone", you are just blowing forum flatulence. Your "red herring" charge has no substance.
 

OzSpen

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kepha31 said:
You cannot prove Augustine uses the term "scripture alone" the same way Martin Luther did. Until you can prove Augustine pits "scripture alone" against the Church and Tradition, the way Martin Luther uses the term "scripture alone", you are just blowing forum flatulence. Your "red herring" charge has no substance.
Another red herring!!!
 

epostle1

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I retract saying Augustine did not say "scripture alone", I was mistaken. But just because you found two words "scripture alone" in a quote out of context does not mean Augustine taught "scripture alone" in the reformist sense. It would be impossible for Augustine to support reformist "bible-alone" theology without being branded as a heretic.
 

mjrhealth

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Love your little message Kepha..

Not all christian haters are equal
aborad we are beheaded
at home were bashed

Only need one scripture

Joh_8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Yes the catholic church, murdered all who opposed it,
tortured those who would not join it
slaughtered the Jews, Gods own people because they killed Jesus,
spoke only latin during mass as they believed they where the only ones entitled to know,
denied the people the bible which was only in latin so no unlearned person could read it
killed any one who tried to translate it or print it
killed anyone who told them the world was round and not flat
make idols when the bible says we should have none
calls men father when teh bible says we have but one and shouldnt.
hold there own tradtions as it says

Mar 7:6 He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me.
Mar 7:7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
Mar 7:8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
Mar 7:9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.

but its ok most other religions do the same your not alone.

In all His Love
 

epostle1

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mjrhealth said:
Love your little message Kepha..

Not all christian haters are equal
aborad we are beheaded
at home were bashed

Only need one scripture

Joh_8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Yes the catholic church, murdered all who opposed it,
tortured those who would not join it
slaughtered the Jews, Gods own people because they killed Jesus,
spoke only latin during mass as they believed they where the only ones entitled to know,
denied the people the bible which was only in latin so no unlearned person could read it
killed any one who tried to translate it or print it
killed anyone who told them the world was round and not flat
make idols when the bible says we should have none
calls men father when teh bible says we have but one and shouldnt.
hold there own tradtions as it says

Mar 7:6 He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me.
Mar 7:7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
Mar 7:8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
Mar 7:9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.

but its ok most other religions do the same your not alone.

In all His Love
The difference between you and me is that I don't have to invent false histories to make my point. You do. Or you borrow them from liars.
I don't reply to shot gun tactics, so don't bother baiting me with a list of unproven hateful remarks that takes 5 pages to answer, which has nothing to do with the topic.
 

mjrhealth

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There are scientist that come up with theories and will test those theories those if they are true. Some scientist when they discover the evidence says their theory is wrong will take that. realize the theory was wrong and drop it and go look for another, but than there ate those who no matter how much the evidence proves them wrong will insist on persuing it more and more in an act of futility ,even to the point of death, refusing to see the truth, Just as it is with christians, who as the bible says,

2Th 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
2Th 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

But as it says, your choice. You have the evidence you refuse to believe it, just like those scientist, twisting words, making false statements to somehow try make the lie a truth. You cant it is impossible.
 

StanJ

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kepha31 said:
The difference between you and me is that I don't have to invent false histories to make my point. You do. Or you borrow them from liars.
I don't reply to shot gun tactics, so don't bother baiting me with a list of unproven hateful remarks that takes 5 pages to answer, which has nothing to do with the topic.
OK...pot...meet kettle.