Natural vs Spiritual

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Netchaplain

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The natural man (e.g. natural man as opposed to spiritual man - 1Co 2:14, 15), yet in the carnal mind (unregenerate – not the same as carnal babes in Christ - 1Co 3:1, 3) has only natural faith and not spiritual faith, which is “fruit” (work) of the Spirit – Gal 5:22. The unsaved are “carnally minded,” and the saved are “spiritually minded” (Rom 8:6). All have natural faith but not all have spiritual faith (2Th 3:2 – the majority of mankind will ever be devoid of spiritual faith – Mat 7:13, 14).

One can think they believe in God with the natural faith, which will manifest itself via loss of desire for profession and obedience in Christ. But only “the obedience of faith,” in “the Word of faith” is of the Lord Jesus (Rom 16:26; Rom 10:8)! It’s only the spiritual faith “through” which we are “saved” (Eph 2:8), for natural faith, not being the fruit of the Spirit discerns only from the senses, and not having godly sustenance the hypocritical show for spiritual things are inevitably abandoned (unenduring). Such “depart,” not from a possession of faith but from a profession of its doctrine, having never received the knowledge of saving faith into the heart.

1Timithy 4:1 - Gill - “That is, from the doctrine of faith, notwithstanding it is indisputably the great mystery of godliness, as it is called in the latter part of the preceding chapter; for from the true grace of faith there can be no final and total apostasy, such as is here designed; for that can never be lost. It is of an incorruptible nature, and therefore more precious than gold that perishes; Christ is the author and finisher of it.”

Faith in Christ, which comes only by the Spirit keeps us in the Father and the Son. We can “keep the faith” (2Ti 4:7), but this is not the sense of keeping in the faith. To keep the faith is in the sense of being responsible for living and teaching it according to the dictates of its truths. Keeping in the faith is not anymore possible than producing it yourself, for it is a “gift” (Eph 2:8).

“Through” it God unites us to Himself. Being in the faith means everything believers do derives from faith. Thus faith brings us through this life as God sustains and enables it in us. We do not keep it from failing, but God through it keeps us from falling. Though believers, yet being indwelled by the “old man” (Rom 7:17, 20) are still inclined to sin, God maintains in us a stronger “desire” to “do” His will (Phl 2:13).

Jude 1:24 - John Gill - “Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling ...” “The people of God are liable to falling into temptation, into sin, into errors and mistakes, from an exercise of grace, or from a degree of steadfastness in Gospel truths, and even into a final and total apostasy, were it not for divine power; and they are not able to keep themselves. Adam, in his state of innocence, could not keep himself from falling, nor could the angels, many of whom fell, and the rest are preserved by the grace of God.

“Wherefore, much less can imperfect sinful men keep themselves, they lack both skill and power to do it. Nor can any, short of Christ, keep them, and it is His work and office to preserve them. They were given to Him with this view, and He undertook to do it; and sensible sinners commit themselves to Him, as being appointed for that purpose; and this is a work Christ has been, and is, employed in, and Ge is every way qualified for it.

“He is "able" to do it, for he is the mighty God, the Creator and upholder of all things; and as Mediator, He has all power in heaven and in earth, instances of persons kept by him prove it, and there is such evidence of it that believers may be, and are persuaded of it. He is as willing as He is able; it is His Father's will He should keep them, and in that He delights and as He has undertook to keep them, He is accountable for them; besides, He has an interest in them, and the greatest love and affection for them; to which may be added, that the glory of the Father, Son, and Spirit, in man's salvation, depends on the keeping of them.

“What He keeps them from is, from falling by temptations. Not from being tempted by Satan, but from sinking under his temptations, and from being devoured by him; and from falling by sin, not from the being or commission of sin, but from the dominion of it, and from the falling into it, so as to perish by it; and from falling into damnable heresies; and from the true grace of God, and into final impenitence, unbelief, and total apostasy.”
 
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farouk

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Ephesians 3 also speaks of being 'strengthened ...in the inner man'. So much emphasis - and negativity - goes with a pursuit of the outward, whereas it's the inward and spiritual that really counts with regard to true holiness.
 

Randy Kluth

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Interesting subject, and it brings up several issues for me.

1) Christ is strong in what way? He seems weak because God is patient and is not always quick to put down human rebellion we are wanting to see quelled. But when God acts, it is overwhelming, and so He is strong. He moves and sustains the universe. He can begin and end it. We don't see how powerful He is in the small things in our lives, such as maintaining our bodily health, and preventing us from suffering and dying. But we can see, when we are tempted, that His Spirit is stronger in us, if indeed we obey by turning away from the temptations.

There is something *we* must do--not just God. We must sanctify ourselves, staying away from unnecessary temptations. We need to not socialize in situations that encourage paganism from its participants. We need to feed off of Christian fellowship, and not look for sustenance in the "darkness." And we need to not put ourselves in places where we know we will be tempted, by anger or by immorality. These are things God expects us to do if we are serious about wanting His protection.

2) It's true that the Natural Man does not receive the things of God--they are "foolishness to him." Does this mean people cannot receive the word of God in their conscience? No--they just may not know where their conscience is coming from! Does it mean nonChristians cannot believe in God? Not at all--they just don't have the Spirit of God residing within them, and experience the changed life that results from that.

Even Christians fail to follow the voice of the Spirit within, and begin to follow their own mind at times. This is being "carnal-minded." It is like the nonChristian Natural Man that you are talking about. When you go your own way, thinking it's the "religious" thing to do, it has no spiritual value if the word within you is not involved. As you say, all true spirituality comes from God alone, and we enjoy it only if we're participating with it. If it lives within us, then we should be able to live and experience the new spiritual nature that Christ has given to those who received it.

Many in the world have heard the Gospel, or the word of God. But when they don't receive it in their heart as the sole source of their life, they are not "born again," and don't know what the New Spiritual Nature really is. So quickly, their understanding of God's word can fade away, and they utterly reject a "changed spiritual life." They grow skeptical that anybody ever really changes.

But when we live in relationship with God by regularly responding to his word in faith, then we can see how powerful God is in the everyday things of life. Having allowed him to live in us, we have access to his word not just as servants, but also, as sons and daughters. And we can generate positive results in this world on His behalf. We can be "ambassadors for Christ." We not only look like we have changed lives, but we are able to demonstrate God's power in our words, binding and loosing the sins of others.

These are just a few thoughts that I had. Thanks for raising the subject.
 
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Netchaplain

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Ephesians 3 also speaks of being 'strengthened ...in the inner man'. So much emphasis - and negativity - goes with a pursuit of the outward, whereas it's the inward and spiritual that really counts with regard to true holiness.
I think the outward man is often overrated because the though is what one does effects what one is. But the inverse is true as you've mentioned, what one is determines what one does. It's not living after the old man that incurs the curse, because the outward merely manifests the inward, and it's the inward that determines what one is, and which makes one liable for damnation. The damage is done before the sinning.

Appreciate your reply!
 

Netchaplain

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1) Christ is strong in what way? He seems weak because God is patient and is not always quick to put down human rebellion we are wanting to see quelled. But when God acts, it is overwhelming, and so He is strong. He moves and sustains the universe. He can begin and end it. We don't see how powerful He is in the small things in our lives, such as maintaining our bodily health, and preventing us from suffering and dying. But we can see, when we are tempted, that His Spirit is stronger in us, if indeed we obey by turning away from the temptations.

There is something *we* must do--not just God. We must sanctify ourselves, staying away from unnecessary temptations. We need to not socialize in situations that encourage paganism from its participants. We need to feed off of Christian fellowship, and not look for sustenance in the "darkness." And we need to not put ourselves in places where we know we will be tempted, by anger or by immorality. These are things God expects us to do if we are serious about wanting His protection.
I believe you make some clear and good points, and my understanding is that all who are true believers (reborn) will love and obey God, because He "works" this in them to continue to do so (Phl 2:13). The intention of the article is to demonstrate the difference between natural faith that we are born with, which is related to earthly things (like trusting your care when using it, etc.), and supernatural faith that comes from God which is related to the things of God.

2) It's true that the Natural Man does not receive the things of God--they are "foolishness to him." Does this mean people cannot receive the word of God in their conscience? No--they just may not know where their conscience is coming from! Does it mean nonChristians cannot believe in God? Not at all--they just don't have the Spirit of God residing within them, and experience the changed life that results from that.
It's my understanding that man can believe there is a God without trusting (faith) in Him. Like the devils, they believe about God, that He's real, but do not trust or believe in Him and His Word. I think Scripture teaches that faith from God (not faith we're born with) is required to trust, understand, love and obey Him.

Even Christians fail to follow the voice of the Spirit within, and begin to follow their own mind at times. This is being "carnal-minded."
You make an important point here, but I believe being "carnal minded" as in Rom 8:6, 7 is nothing like just being carnal about something due to spiritual immaturity in 1Co 3:1, 3. The prior is descriptive of one not in Christ, unlike the latter. I also believe that Christians will always be in some degree carnal in our thinking due to the presence of "the old man," and that no believer can be completely void of carnality. I think "carnal minded" means minding or desiring to live after it, as being unregenerate (unsaved).

Many in the world have heard the Gospel, or the word of God. But when they don't receive it in their heart as the sole source of their life, they are not "born again"
This reminds me of Hebrews 10:26, which concerns the judgement of those who hear the truth but continue on without believing it.


Thanks for your reply and sincere comments! God bless!
 

Randy Kluth

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I believe you make some clear and good points, and my understanding is that all who are true believers (reborn) will love and obey God, because He "works" this in them to continue to do so (Phl 2:13). The intention of the article is to demonstrate the difference between natural faith that we are born with, which is related to earthly things (like trusting your care when using it, etc.), and supernatural faith that comes from God which is related to the things of God.

Gotcha. I did take it that way, as well. I'm just adding additional material for the sake of conversation.

It's my understanding that man can believe there is a God without trusting (faith) in Him. Like the devils, they believe about God, that He's real, but do not trust or believe in Him and His Word. I think Scripture teaches that faith from God (not faith we're born with) is required to trust, understand, love and obey Him.

Well, I think all faith is our own human response to revelation from heaven, whether we know it or not, whether we are saved or not. But you're right that if our faith is to be the kind "Heaven" wants, it has to embrace the entire message of God's word, not just 50/50 part God's word and part our interpretation of His word. True that is. It has to be real faith, and not just what we want to believe God meant!

Cain is a perfect example of acting out what he thought God wanted, as opposed to Abel, who gave God want he knew God wanted. Otherwise, you can't tell the difference between their offerings to God! God simply was not pleased with Cain's offering because it wasn't what He had expressed to Cain, by His word, what He really wants. Cain wanted to interpret who God is and wants differently, according to his own carnal interests.

You make an important point here, but I believe being "carnal minded" as in Rom 8:6, 7 is nothing like just being carnal about something due to spiritual immaturity in 1Co 3:1, 3. The prior is descriptive of one not in Christ, unlike the latter. I also believe that Christians will always be in some degree carnal in our thinking due to the presence of "the old man," and that no believer can be completely void of carnality. I think "carnal minded" means minding or desiring to live after it, as being unregenerate (unsaved).

The way Paul addressed the Corinthian church indicated he thought they were immature, or "carnal-minded."

1 Cor 3.Brothers and sisters, I could not address you as people who live by the Spirit but as people who are still worldly—mere infants in Christ. 2 I gave you milk, not solid food, for you were not yet ready for it. Indeed, you are still not ready. 3 You are still worldly. For since there is jealousy and quarreling among you, are you not worldly? Are you not acting like mere humans? 4 For when one says, “I follow Paul,” and another, “I follow Apollos,” are you not mere human beings?

Did Paul really think they were carnal-minded? Well yes, he saw them as worldly, just as people who are not saved are worldly. The entire letter begins with this comparison. Paul relegated the immature to divisive people who weren't completely seeing the unity that should exist in Christ. The mature, however, he saw as properly spiritual-minded:

1 Cor 2.6 We do, however, speak a message of wisdom among the mature, but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing.

This reminds me of Hebrews 10:26, which concerns the judgement of those who hear the truth but continue on without believing it.
Thanks for your reply and sincere comments! God bless!

I share your love of the truth, and your focus on the "spiritual side" of genuine faith. Faith can indeed become an empty belief in God without true devotion. Amen to that!
 

Netchaplain

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The way Paul addressed the Corinthian church indicated he thought they were immature, or "carnal-minded."
It's okay, but it's a common mistake to relate "carnal minded" (Rom 8:6, 7) with just being carnal (1Co 3:1). As I mentioned in post #8, being "carnal minded" as in Rom 8:6, 7 is nothing like just being carnal about something due to spiritual immaturity in 1Co 3:1, 3. The prior is descriptive of one not in Christ, unlike the latter, babes or immature in Christ.

Did Paul really think they were carnal-minded? Well yes, he saw them as worldly, just as people who are not saved are worldly.

The entire letter begins with this comparison. Paul relegated the immature to divisive people who weren't completely seeing the unity that should exist in Christ. The mature, however, he saw as properly spiritual-minded:
Being carnal minded means you are still after the old man and have yet to become a believer (reborn). Being spiritually minded means you are now after the Spirit, which will show as you grow in the walk, as all babes-in-Christ do; and all are babes in the outset! The carnal minded will never change until they choose to believe in Christ.

I share your love of the truth, and your focus on the "spiritual side" of genuine faith. Faith can indeed become an empty belief in God without true devotion. Amen to that!
Appreciate the encouragement of you sharing that with me! Chat ya latter.
 

Randy Kluth

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It's okay, but it's a common mistake to relate "carnal minded" (Rom 8:6, 7) with just being carnal (1Co 3:1). As I mentioned in post #8, being "carnal minded" as in Rom 8:6, 7 is nothing like just being carnal about something due to spiritual immaturity in 1Co 3:1, 3. The prior is descriptive of one not in Christ, unlike the latter, babes or immature in Christ.

It's not a mistake, in my thinking. I wouldn't even want to deny there is a distinction between those who are carnal and unsaved and those who are carnal and saved.

Yes, Christians can be carnal-minded--that is the whole message of 1 Corinthians. So maybe I'm just missing your point? If all you're saying is that there is this difference between the lost and weak Christians I wouldn't dream of denying that. We simply must recognize the need to grow up in Christ, because we begin our Christianity as weak and susceptible to the lusts of this world.

Being carnal minded means you are still after the old man and have yet to become a believer (reborn). Being spiritually minded means you are now after the Spirit, which will show as you grow in the walk, as all babes-in-Christ do; and all are babes in the outset! The carnal minded will never change until they choose to believe in Christ.

Appreciate the encouragement of you sharing that with me! Chat ya latter.

Sure, I love fellowship with other believers--a lot of good can be done and multiplied. :)
 

Netchaplain

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It's not a mistake, in my thinking. I wouldn't even want to deny there is a distinction between those who are carnal and unsaved and those who are carnal and saved.
I think I see your meaning, that the outward manner of lifestyle between Christians that are still more carnal than should be and the lost are the same. I agree here, I think there is always a certain amount of those who profess to believe that do not truly believe and are still unsaved, for there have always been hypocrites among the true believers.

But I also believe there are many true professing believers that are still growing (and all true believers never stop growing), and that the longer time continues, the longer it takes for their growth out of the babe-stage. This is because Christendom in general continues to learn less of the growth truths all the time, as the fundamentals of spiritual growth among Protestants are often misunderstood and therefore untaught; which I think this will continue to worsen until the Lord's final return.
 

Randy Kluth

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I think I see your meaning, that the outward manner of lifestyle between Christians that are still more carnal than should be and the lost are the same. I agree here, I think there is always a certain amount of those who profess to believe that do not truly believe and are still unsaved, for there have always been hypocrites among the true believers.

Yes, there are both. There are those who aren't truly saved and can be seen for who they are because of their carnality, despite their religious words. And as Paul said in 1 Corinthians, there were honest to goodness Christians who nevertheless were immature and carnal in their ways, and had a lot of growing up to do.

In the letter of Hebrews, the author also exhorts believers to grow up, not just focusing on foundational doctrines repetitively, as if Christianity is a formal religious exercise, instead of a living, spontaneous life with God (Hebrews 6).

But I also believe there are many true professing believers that are still growing (and all true believers never stop growing), and that the longer time continues, the longer it takes for their growth out of the babe-stage. This is because Christendom in general continues to learn less of the growth truths all the time, as the fundamentals of spiritual growth among Protestants are often misunderstood and therefore untaught; which I think this will continue to worsen until the Lord's final return.

I can't agree more with you! Thank you.