New Jerusalem

[Hiddenthings]

This thread is a discussion with @Aunty Jane about New Jerusalem and what it comprises in the Kingdom Age.

I thought we could start with Revelation 3

I'll try to use the NWT where possible.

I will only be dealing with the green text in this OP.

The one who conquers—I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God, and he will by no means go out from it anymore, and I will write upon him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the New Jerusalem that descends out of heaven from my God, and my own new name.  Let the one who has an ear hear what the spirit says to the congregations. Rev 3:12-13

Jane, if you don't mind I would like to state some obvious things first before getting into the details about the City.

You will notice though the Philadelphian body was commended as a whole, salvation is a personal issue, dependent upon the attitude of each individual. I think it's good to find more things to agree on Jane than to disagree.

Jesus goes on to say "Will I make him a pillar in the temple of my God"

It's interesting, Jane, that the Temple is the Lord’s initial focus before attention shifts to the City itself. One of the key questions in this study will be whether both the Temple and the City are to be understood as literal structures. Personally, I believe that both will exist physically on the earth.

Throughout this study, I’ll frequently refer back to the Old Testament, as I’m wholly convinced that the foundation of the New Jerusalem is patterned on the framework of the old.

The readers of this letter would have held a vision of the OT Temple.

The Temple served as the dwelling place of Yahweh / Jehovah in ancient Israel, where His glory visibly resided (1 Kings 8:11; 1 Corinthians 6:19–20). At the entrance stood two prominent pillars: Jachin ("He shall establish") and Boaz ("Strength"). Together, they expressed the message: He shall establish it in strength. These pillars symbolized the royal priesthood of Israel.

They were made of brass symbolizing flesh refined and purified and they were adorned at the top with decorative elements such as nets of checker-work, wreaths (Stephan's) of chain-work, pomegranates, and lily work. Each of these elements carried symbolic meaning related to the spiritual qualities of those represented by the pillars.

• The wreaths symbolized a crown of victory.
• The pomegranates represented fruitfulness through sacrifice, with their packed white seeds and red juice illustrating life through blood-shedding.

The lily, symbolizing purity and beauty, was among the decorative elements. To be built into pillars representing such principles is to embody and display them before both God and man.

Jachin represents priesthood, for through priestly mediation, humanity is brought into unity with Yahweh.
Boaz signifies kingship, as wise and righteous rule establishes a nation in strength. These two roles, priest and king, are perfectly united in Christ as per Zechariah 6:13.

Christ the King Priest:

"Even he shall build the temple of the LORD; and he shall bear the glory, and shall sit and rule upon his throne; and he shall be a priest upon his throne: and the counsel of peace shall be between them both." Zech 6:13

Interestingly, Boaz was an ancestor of David (Ruth 4) and served as the redeemer of Ruth and Naomi, linking the strength symbolized by the pillar to the concept of redemption.

It's important to understand, Jane, that the promise of becoming kings and priests applies to all the saints who have been redeemed by the blood of the Lamb. The Lord Jesus Christ, as the King-Priest, has pledged to share this honor making all the redeemed co-heirs with him as kings and priests in his coming kingdom.

Finally, you will see how Jesus speaks of "and he will by no means go out from it anymore"

Interesting comment by the Lord - it implies there will be no entry into the spiritual temple, nor inclusion in the multitudinous bride of Christ, for those who have willfully defiled the holy things of God. Revelation 21:27 supports this view.

Ezekiel 44:7
"In that ye have brought into my sanctuary strangers, uncircumcised in heart, and uncircumcised in flesh, to be in my sanctuary, to pollute it, even my house, when ye offer my bread, the fat and the blood, and they have broken my covenant because of all your abominations."

So in summary:

I believe Zechariah 6:13 & Revelation 3:12,13, promises the roles of king and priest who are united in Christ, who builds the temple, reigns in glory, and mediates peace (on earth). All these matters will be physically represented in the earth. Temple, City, Thrones etc all visible to the Nations...but more of that to come.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Thank you Hiddenthings…
There is a lot to address here, so to do this subject justice please allow me some time….

 

[WitnessX]

Great topic! I also look forward to this.

in the Dead Sea Scrolls, there are two scrolls that may give enlightening information on Jesus Future kingdom.

One is the War Scroll, which describes a final battle between the "Sons of Light" and the "Sons of Darkness," including a period of divine rule or under the messianic age.

The Temple Scroll, contains laws and regulations that are thought to reflect a vision of an idealized future society, possibly including elements of a millennium kingdom.

Scripture of course takes precedence and only He knows for sure, as God is sovereignty is true over all things. Amen.

 

[Hiddenthings]

Great topic! I also look forward to this.

in the Dead Sea Scrolls, there are two scrolls that may give enlightening information on Jesus Future kingdom.

One is the War Scroll, which describes a final battle between the "Sons of Light" and the "Sons of Darkness," including a period of divine rule or under the messianic age.

The Temple Scroll, contains laws and regulations that are thought to reflect a vision of an idealized future society, possibly including elements of a millennium kingdom.

Scripture of course takes precedence and only He knows for sure, as God is sovereignty is true over all things. Amen.

Thanks for your post.

While I won’t be incorporating extra-biblical works into this particular discussion, I have found the Book of the War (including the War Scroll) and the Temple Scroll quite fascinating. They speak to the King (War) and Priest (Temple) aspects of the future Kingdom of God on earth.

At some point, I plan to explore the march of the rainbowed angel in Revelation 10, which offers a powerful vision of Christ and the saints subduing the nations.

Perhaps we could develop additional threads branching off from this one in the future?

 

[Aunty Jane]

I thought we could start with Revelation 3

I'll try to use the NWT where possible.

I will only be dealing with the green text in this OP.

The one who conquers—I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God, and he will by no means go out from it anymore, and I will write upon him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the New Jerusalem that descends out of heaven from my God, and my own new name.  Let the one who has an ear hear what the spirit says to the congregations. Rev 3:12-13

You can use any translation you wish…the truth isn’t just in my preferred Bible translation.

This is part of John‘s Revelation, and so it was presented in signs (or symbols) from God to Jesus and from the angel to John.…so four participants in this vision. (Rev 1:1)

Jesus is speaking to the “conquerors”…..the “overcomers” who have succeeded in holding to the faith to their death….his “saints”. Making them “pillars“ means that they are the means of support for the entire structure. It is built on them.

The phrase “and he will by no means go out from it anymore”…….It is apparent by this statement that God’s presence left the earthly Temple once the curtain was torn in two when Christ died…..indicating that his sacrifice had opened the way to heaven for Christ’s ”saints” to follow….but not yet.
Christ laid down his fleshly body and shed his blood to atone for the sins of all redeemed mankind.

”The city of my God” is identified as “New Jerusalem” that “descends out of heaven”.
So where is “New Jerusalem” descending to?…. and does it have to be in a specific geographical location like old Jerusalem was? How does it descend and what is its purpose?

The Temple and priesthood in old Jerusalem were “types and shadows” of a more important Temple and priesthood located in heaven. Jesus and his elect would rule from heaven over earthly subjects, just like God ruled over his people through his human representatives in Bible times.

The city itself is a bit of a problem as well if it is located on earth….it’s dimensions would not allow for it to be an earthly structure.
Rev 21:16-17…
”And the city stands as a square, its length the same as its breadth. And he measured the city with the reed for twelve thousand stadia: its length and its breadth and its height are equal. 17 And he measured its wall, a hundred and forty-four cubits, man’s measure, which is angel’s measure.”

This city is a cube with equal measurement all around…height, breadth and width, 12,000 furlongs (about 1,380 miles) [2,220 km]) in perimeter, surrounded by a wall 144 cubits, or 210 feet [64 m], in height. No literal city could ever have such measurements. It would cover a territory about 14 times as large as modern day Israel, and it would tower almost 350 miles [560 km] into outer space!

We have to remember that Revelation was given in signs, so not a lot of it is literal.…so what do these measurements tell us about New Jerusalem? It does not appear to be earthly.

Jane, if you don't mind I would like to state some obvious things first before getting into the details about the City.

You will notice though the Philadelphian body was commended as a whole, salvation is a personal issue, dependent upon the attitude of each individual. I think it's good to find more things to agree on Jane than to disagree.

OK…

Jesus goes on to say "Will I make him a pillar in the temple of my God"

It's interesting, Jane, that the Temple is the Lord’s initial focus before attention shifts to the City itself. One of the key questions in this study will be whether both the Temple and the City are to be understood as literal structures. Personally, I believe that both will exist physically on the earth.

Well, to my understanding, Paul mentioned “types and shadows” of things to come….so we need to understand what types and shadows are with respect to the Temple and the city.

Throughout this study, I’ll frequently refer back to the Old Testament, as I’m wholly convinced that the foundation of the New Jerusalem is patterned on the framework of the old.

I agree….the pattern is clearly established and Paul confirms it.

The readers of this letter would have held a vision of the OT Temple.

The Temple served as the dwelling place of Yahweh / Jehovah in ancient Israel, where His glory visibly resided (1 Kings 8:11; 1 Corinthians 6:19–20). At the entrance stood two prominent pillars: Jachin ("He shall establish") and Boaz ("Strength"). Together, they expressed the message: He shall establish it in strength. These pillars symbolized the royal priesthood of Israel.

They were made of brass symbolizing flesh refined and purified and they were adorned at the top with decorative elements such as nets of checker-work, wreaths (Stephan's) of chain-work, pomegranates, and lily work. Each of these elements carried symbolic meaning related to the spiritual qualities of those represented by the pillars.

Yes, no disagreement there.

Jachin represents priesthood, for through priestly mediation, humanity is brought into unity with Yahweh.
Boaz signifies kingship, as wise and righteous rule establishes a nation in strength. These two roles, priest and king, are perfectly united in Christ as per Zechariah 6:13.

Christ the King Priest:

"Even he shall build the temple of the LORD; and he shall bear the glory, and shall sit and rule upon his throne; and he shall be a priest upon his throne: and the counsel of peace shall be between them both." Zech 6:13

Yes, no one in Israel could be both a King and a priest as they were from different tribes. Their assignment as Kings/priests is from God.

 

[Aunty Jane]

It's important to understand, Jane, that the promise of becoming kings and priests applies to all the saints who have been redeemed by the blood of the Lamb. The Lord Jesus Christ, as the King-Priest, has pledged to share this honor making all the redeemed co-heirs with him as kings and priests in his coming kingdom.

Yes, I agree again, but as to the the identity of the “saints” we may differ.
As “kings and priests” they will need those over whom they have authority to rule (not each other) and for whom they will serve as priests, so it is apparent to me that these “saints” have an assignment that involves humans who are still on earth. But would be serving in a heavenly kingdom over earthly subjects.

Rev 21: 2-4 says….
” I also saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God and prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 With that I heard a loud voice from the throne say: “Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his people. And God himself will be with them. 4 And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.”

This is clearly God’s rulership with Christ and his bride, coming from heaven to rule over “mankind”. Not a literal city.
How will God be “with” his people? How was he going to be “with” humans in the beginning? How was he “with” his people in Bible times?…even when they had an earthly king?
God didn’t need to come to the earth to rule humans….he would oversee their safety and security from the place he is located…in heaven.

And, didnt Jesus tell his apostles that the world will see him no more?
John 14:19-20…..
” In a little while the world will see me no more, but you will see me, because I live and you will live. 20 In that day you will know that I am in union with my Father and you are in union with me and I am in union with you.”

Why would his saints see him when no one else will? How would he return to the earth if no one can see him?

Those who are called to serve as kings and priests are said to have “the heavenly calling” (Heb 3:1) and these ones need to be “born again”….so in what way are they “born again”?
They are transformed from creatures of flesh into creatures of spirit, like Jesus….and taking up residence in heaven was the only reason for that. Humans of flesh and blood cannot exist outside of Earth’s atmosphere.
And there are no immortal souls flitting about in heaven. The dead are all still in their graves until Christ’s return, according to Paul. (1 Thess 4:15-16)

Finally, you will see how Jesus speaks of "and he will by no means go out from it anymore"

Interesting comment by the Lord - it implies there will be no entry into the spiritual temple, nor inclusion in the multitudinous bride of Christ, for those who have willfully defiled the holy things of God. Revelation 21:27 supports this view.

Expanding on that scripture….
Rev 21:22-27 speaking of the city, John says….

“I did not see a temple in it, for Jehovah God the Almighty is its temple, also the Lamb is. 23 And the city has no need of the sun nor of the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God illuminated it, and its lamp was the Lamb. 24 And the nations will walk by means of its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it. 25 Its gates will not be closed at all by day, for night will not exist there. 26 And they will bring the glory and the honor of the nations into it. 27 But anything defiled and anyone who does what is disgusting and deceitful will in no way enter into it; only those written in the Lamb’s scroll of life will enter.”

Does that sound like an earthly city to you?
I believe it means that he will never need to abandon his own Temple again because of appalling human conduct. The spiritual temple in heaven is not a building…..it is the body of Christ….

Peter wrote….
”As you come to him, a living stone rejected by men but chosen, precious to God, 5 you yourselves as living stones are being built up into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, in order to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.” (1 Peter2: 4-5)

Ezekiel 44:7
"In that ye have brought into my sanctuary strangers, uncircumcised in heart, and uncircumcised in flesh, to be in my sanctuary, to pollute it, even my house, when ye offer my bread, the fat and the blood, and they have broken my covenant because of all your abominations."

Early in his vision, Ezekiel watched his angelic guide measuring the gates. Those structures were about 100 feet (30 m) in height! (Ezek 40:14) There were guard chambers within those entryways. What might all of this have suggested to those who studied this plan? Jehovah told Ezekiel: “Pay close attention to the entryway of the temple.” Why? Because the people had been bringing in individuals who were “uncircumcised in heart and flesh” right into God’s sacred house of worship. The result? “They profane my temple,” Jehovah said. (Ezek 44:7)

Those who were “uncircumcised in . . . flesh” had failed to obey a clear command from God that went back to the days of Abraham. (Gen 17:9-10; Lev 12:1-3) But those who were “uncircumcised in heart” had a worse problem. They were stubbornly rebellious, unresponsive to Jehovah’s direction and guidance. Such people should not have been allowed to enter Jehovah’s sacred house of worship! Jehovah hates hypocrisy, and his people had allowed hypocrisy to flourish in his house. The gates and guard chambers in the visionary temple clearly taught the lesson: No more of such abuses! The lofty standards for entry into God’s house must be upheld. Only then would Jehovah bless the people’s worship.

So in summary:

I believe Zechariah 6:13 & Revelation 3:12,13, promises the roles of king and priest who are united in Christ, who builds the temple, reigns in glory, and mediates peace (on earth). All these matters will be physically represented in the earth. Temple, City, Thrones etc all visible to the Nations...but more of that to come.

You are of course welcome to your interpretation of things but as you can see there are disagreements based on Scripture.

Over to you….

 

[Hiddenthings]

You can use any translation you wish…the truth isn’t just in my preferred Bible translation.

This is part of John‘s Revelation, and so it was presented in signs (or symbols) from God to Jesus and from the angel to John.…so four participants in this vision. (Rev 1:1)

Jesus is speaking to the “conquerors”…..the “overcomers” who have succeeded in holding to the faith to their death….his “saints”. Making them “pillars“ means that they are the means of support for the entire structure. It is built on them.

These references all speak to the same people. There is no distinction in the reward to the seven churches. If there was distinction then the letters to the seven churches is the perfect place to reveal.

E.g. "To him that overcomes" The Greek word nikao means to conquer. The word is used of all Saints.

Rev 2:7 is speaking to all Saints who partake of the tree of life and not a select group. We need to move you away from thinking the Saints are segmented in elite groups according to reward. This will take time and patience (from me lol). E.g 12 Apostles = 12 judges = reward the same responsibilities may differ, but all on earth!

Rev 2:26 reveals the same blessing (overcome) but this time is to have power over the nations (again focusing on the work of the Saints "in" the Nations. This lesson will become very loud at the end of this study.

The phrase “and he will by no means go out from it anymore”…….It is apparent by this statement that God’s presence left the earthly Temple once the curtain was torn in two when Christ died…..indicating that his sacrifice had opened the way to heaven for Christ’s ”saints” to follow….but not yet.
Christ laid down his fleshly body and shed his blood to atone for the sins of all redeemed mankind.

This was not to allow access to Heaven for the Saints but for the Kingdom of Heaven to come to Earth. It's origin is of Heaven! It's destination is Earth.

“We have this hope as an anchor for the soul, both sure and firm, and it (hope) enters in within the curtain.” — Hebrews 6:19, NWT

It's the hope which is being born from above and is reserved there until the appearing of the Lord from Heaven.

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, for according to his great mercy he gave us a new birth to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 to an incorruptible and undefiled and unfading inheritance. It is reserved in the heavens for you, 5 who are being safeguarded by God’s power through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last period of time.” 1 Peter 1:3–5 (NWT)

It's important to note that our living hope is reserved in heaven and will be revealed at Christ’s return. As 1 John 3:2 says, 'when he appears, we shall be like him."

Nowhere in the Bible does it teach that the Saints would follow Christ into Heaven, but rather it does state clearly that Christ is coming to Earth to establish God's Temple, City and Kingdom from which those who are within will not leave...ever!

"When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit down on his glorious throne (of David)." Matthew 25:31, NWT

Note: time stamp "then"

Fact 1. Christ has not come in his glory, though promised
Fact 2. When he comes the Angels will accompany him to assist in the establishment of the Kingdom of Israel/God on Earth
Fact 3. He is not currently sitting on David's throne (in Heaven) as this is yet to be rebuilt in the land

Proof 1 & 2. "Because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first." — 1 Thessalonians 4:16, NWT

Proof 3. In that day I will raise up the booth of David that is fallen, I will repair the breaches, and I will restore its ruins; I will rebuild it as in the days of long ago. Amos 9:11 (NWT) After these things I will return and raise up again the tent of David that has fallen down; I will rebuild its ruins and restore it Acts 15:16 (NWT)

”The city of my God” is identified as “New Jerusalem” that “descends out of heaven”.

Correct.

So where is “New Jerusalem” descending to?…. and does it have to be in a specific geographical location like old Jerusalem was? How does it descend and what is its purpose?

Good question.

The New Jerusalem described in Revelation 21 reflects a divinely ordered civil structure for the future Kingdom. If we interpret "thousands" symbolically, as representing families or clans, the square of this number suggests how the Kingdom’s civil administration is organized.

This idea aligns with the detailed description of the New Jerusalem:

• It has a great wall adorned with twelve precious stones (v19–20),
• Twelve gates, each attended by an angel (v12),
• And foundations bearing the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb (v. 14).

These apostles, according to Matthew 19:28, are to serve as rulers in the coming age mirroring the role of the twelve princes in David’s kingdom. Likewise, the angels at the gates reflect the role of the twelve stewards in that former era.

If you believed the 12 Apostles remain on Earth and are lessor than your special elite group of Saints you would be wrong.

The number 144,000 (12 x 12 x 1,000) symbolically represents the complete and orderly structure of God's redeemed people forming the basis of a perfect Israelite government in the millennial age. It portrays the full household of God established and prepared for the administration of the Kingdom.

The Temple and priesthood in old Jerusalem were “types and shadows” of a more important Temple and priesthood located in heaven. Jesus and his elect would rule from heaven over earthly subjects, just like God ruled over his people through his human representatives in Bible times.

No, David's promise is extremely clear!

Prophecy

2 Samuel 7:12–13 "When your days are fulfilled and you lie down with your fathers, I (God) will raise up your offspring after you, who shall come from your body, and I will establish his kingdom. He shall build a house for my name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever."

The location of this Throne is the very promise & purpose of Christ's birth...

Prophecy confirmed at his birth

Luke 1:32-33 32 “He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. And the Lord God will give to him the throne of his father David, 33 and he will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and of his kingdom there will be no end.”

And just to confirm this was the correct understanding of the Apostles

Prophecy still a vision of the Saints

So when they had come together, they asked him, “Lord, will you at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?” Acts 1:6 (ESV)

I could supply a lot more references if you wish.

TBC...

 

[Hiddenthings]

The city itself is a bit of a problem as well if it is located on earth….it’s dimensions would not allow for it to be an earthly structure.
Rev 21:16-17…

O ye of little faith ;)

”And the city stands as a square, its length the same as its breadth. And he measured the city with the reed for twelve thousand stadia: its length and its breadth and its height are equal. 17 And he measured its wall, a hundred and forty-four cubits, man’s measure, which is angel’s measure.”

This city is a cube with equal measurement all around…height, breadth and width, 12,000 furlongs (about 1,380 miles) [2,220 km]) in perimeter, surrounded by a wall 144 cubits, or 210 feet [64 m], in height. No literal city could ever have such measurements. It would cover a territory about 14 times as large as modern day Israel, and it would tower almost 350 miles [560 km] into outer space!

It's symbolically large isn't it Jane!!!

We are not speaking of a literal city here in heaven or on earth so why such large measurements?

What we know is this Spiritual City made up of Spiritual People is coming down to Earth - that much is super clear.

We also know that it foursquare shape of the New Jerusalem mirrors several significant biblical patterns:

• It resembles the breastplate of the high priest (Exodus 28:16),
• The altar
• And the formation of Israel’s encampment around the tabernacle (Numbers 2).

We also know the holy city will serve as:

• A breastplate, radiating divine glory
• An altar, symbolizing the complete offering and acceptance of sacrifices
• And an encampment, highlighting the deeply Israelitish character of the hope set forth in Scripture.

The issue you face, Jane, is that this image represents the complete number of the saints, who, according to your beliefs, are not destined to dwell in heaven.

What we are told is this vision of the Heavenly Jerusalem is a symbol for the Lamb's wife (v9).

I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb! Re 21:9.

I don’t intend to get bogged down in numerology, discussions about the meaning of numbers like six could easily sidetrack us. Instead, let’s agree that the numbers are symbolic, representing a City that embodies the complete Bride of Christ.

Fact: The measuring of the Temple is symbolic, representing those chosen from among the nations who will make up the New Jerusalem, coming with Christ at his return to establish God's Kingdom on earth.

We will talk more about this literal (but symbolic) city in the future.

We have to remember that Revelation was given in signs, so not a lot of it is literal.…so what do these measurements tell us about New Jerusalem? It does not appear to be earthly.

Exactly! The assumption that “the measurements are too large, therefore it can’t be a city” holds no weight in this discussion.

OK…

Well, to my understanding, Paul mentioned “types and shadows” of things to come….so we need to understand what types and shadows are with respect to the Temple and the city.

I agree….the pattern is clearly established and Paul confirms it.

Yes, no disagreement there.

Yes, no one in Israel could be both a King and a priest as they were from different tribes. Their assignment as Kings/priests is from God.

Excellent! Love a happy ending

 

[Hiddenthings]

Yes, I agree again, but as to the the identity of the “saints” we may differ.

The Bible offers various roles and duties of the saints but none are said to reside in Heaven.

As “kings and priests” they will need those over whom they have authority to rule (not each other) and for whom they will serve as priests, so it is apparent to me that these “saints” have an assignment that involves humans who are still on earth. But would be serving in a heavenly kingdom over earthly subjects.

Ruling from earth with Christ on Earth

Revelation 5:10: "And you have made them (Saints) a kingdom and priests to our God, and they shall reign on the earth."

So this Jane is an important verse as those who are represented is the complete number of the Saints.

“We shall reign on the earth” The Greek verb is in the present tense, meaning “they reign.” This song, sung by the four living creatures and the elders, anticipates the moment when Christ will have fully triumphed over his enemies and the world will recognize his authority (Verse 13). At that point, the scroll will be entirely unsealed and its contents fulfilled. From that future vantage, they reflect on how the victory of the Millennium was made possible by the victory at Calvary, secured through the resurrection of the Lord.

These four living creatures “Each one of them having harps” for joy and celebration. The OT echo in the temple is the priests “prophesied with harps” 1 Chronicles 25:1. The use of this symbol here as well as in Revelation 14:2 links the “four living creatures” and the “twenty-four elders” with the 144,000 glorified saints rejoicing in victory.

The "we" are all those Saints who sing the New Song!

All of them are on Earth.

Rev 21: 2-4 says….
4 And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.”

This is clearly God’s rulership with Christ and his bride, coming from heaven to rule over “mankind”. Not a literal city.

Allow me to show you the interpretation of this section.

“For the first heaven and the first earth were passed away”

Their passing is described in Revelation 20:11, showing that these are symbolic terms rather than literal. If the literal heavens and earth were to flee from the face of the one on the throne, they would have done so from the beginning, for God's glory has always been present.

This new “heaven and earth” replaces what “fled away” at the conclusion of the Millennium, indicating a new order after Christ’s thousand-year reign. Prior to that time, death still exists; but with the final destruction of death and the grave, a condition of complete deathlessness will be introduced (Revelation 21:4).

The Greek word translated "first" is better rendered “former,” and in verse 4 of this chapter, where it refers to Millennial conditions that will be superseded.

This “new heaven and new earth” corresponds to the “third heaven” mentioned by Paul when speaking of a vision of future glory (2 Corinthians 12:2).

• The first heaven (leaders) and earth (peoples) represent the Israelite constitution under the Mosaic covenant (Deuteronomy 32:1; Isaiah 1:2), which ended with the destruction of the Jewish state in A.D. 70 (2 Peter 3:7).
• The second heaven and earth refer to the Millennial Kingdom established at Christ’s return, the restored Kingdom to Israel (Acts 1:6; 2 Peter 3:13).
• The third heaven and earth will emerge at the close of Christ’s reign when the Kingdom is perfected and handed over to the Father, so that God may be “all in all” (1 Corinthians 15:24–28).

All three Heaven and Earth periods are on Earth and not in literal Heaven.

How will God be “with” his people? How was he going to be “with” humans in the beginning? How was he “with” his people in Bible times?…even when they had an earthly king?

God didn’t need to come to the earth to rule humans….he would oversee their safety and security from the place he is located…in heaven.

This point is moot as Christ is coming to sit upon Davids throne to establish a Kingdom on Earth, which he will hand back to his Father and the conclusion of his reign. God will be all and in all and the Earth will know of His Glory as the waters cover the sea.

And, didnt Jesus tell his apostles that the world will see him no more?
John 14:19-20…..
” In a little while the world will see me no more, but you will see me, because I live and you will live. 20 In that day you will know that I am in union with my Father and you are in union with me and I am in union with you.”

Why would his saints see him when no one else will? How would he return to the earth if no one can see him?

He already told them he would come back again!

John 14:2–3 "In my Father's house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you?
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also."

The eternal life is reserved in Heaven ready to be revealed at his coming.

Those who are called to serve as kings and priests are said to have “the heavenly calling” (Heb 3:1) and these ones need to be “born again”….so in what way are they “born again”?

From above - their lives are with Christ ready to be revealed upon his return

And there are no immortal souls flitting about in heaven.

Agree.

The dead are all still in their graves until Christ’s return, according to Paul. (1 Thess 4:15-16)

Agree.

26 And they will bring the glory and the honor of the nations into it. 27 But anything defiled and anyone who does what is disgusting and deceitful will in no way enter into it; only those written in the Lamb’s scroll of life will enter.”

Does that sound like an earthly city to you?

"And they shall bring the glory and honor of the nations into it"

Haggai declares that "the desire of all nations shall come," and that the Temple will be "filled with glory" (Haggai 2:7). Another interpration to this phrase is "The excellency of the nations, they shall come in." It points out that while the noun is singular, the verb is plural, indicating a collective reference to the multitudinous Christ. Some lexicon's translates it as "the desirable, precious things of all nations." This passage refers to the redeemed, who are the true "glory and honor of the nations," chosen from among all peoples for this purpose (Revelation 5:9-10). Only they will be allowed within the New Jerusalem, incorporated as part of the multitudinous bride of the Lamb (verse 9).

The entire work of the Saints is on earth and the eventual conversion of all nations.

Just as Israel took the wealth of Egypt to honor the Tabernacle, so God is "taking out of the Gentiles a people for His name" (Acts 15:14).

I believe it means that he will never need to abandon his own Temple again because of appalling human conduct. The spiritual temple in heaven is not a building…..it is the body of Christ….

You will get there Jane - its all on Earth!

Early in his vision, Ezekiel watched his angelic guide measuring the gates. Those structures were about 100 feet (30 m) in height! (Ezek 40:14) There were guard chambers within those entryways. What might all of this have suggested to those who studied this plan? Jehovah told Ezekiel: “Pay close attention to the entryway of the temple.” Why? Because the people had been bringing in individuals who were “uncircumcised in heart and flesh” right into God’s sacred house of worship. The result? “They profane my temple,” Jehovah said. (Ezek 44:7)

Correct, this is why those in the New Jerusalem will neither want to leave nor be allowed to leave the Temple. You will never want to depart from this place, and for the reasons mentioned above, it will remain your eternal dwelling.

You are of course welcome to your interpretation of things but as you can see there are disagreements based on Scripture.

Over to you….

As you may be starting to see - your Scriptures are actually showing you another vision, one which I am certain will be revealed to you.

I liked your closing comments above and agree...all that's lacking is an understanding of the literal Kingdom of God on Earth and everything else seems to be in order.

 

[Hiddenthings]

The one who conquers—I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God, and he will by no means go out from it anymore, and I will write upon him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the New Jerusalem that descends out of heaven from my God, and my own new name.  Let the one who has an ear hear what the spirit says to the congregations. Rev 3:12-13

So I don't forget lets deal with this part of Rev 3.

So again, you have the issue of dealing with ALL Saints who take part in this naming.

"The name of the city of my God"

This symbolic act will incorporate him/her as a member of the governing body of New Jerusalem, which is described as the Bride of the Lamb. As Revelation 21:9–11 states: “And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, ‘Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb’s wife.’ And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal.”

This coming glorious city is given significant and prophetic names throughout the Scriptures, such as:

• Jeremiah 33:16 – “In those days shall Judah be saved, and Jerusalem shall dwell safely: and this is the name wherewith she shall be called, The LORD our righteousness.”
• Jeremiah 3:17 – “At that time they shall call Jerusalem the throne of the LORD; and all the nations shall be gathered unto it, to the name of the LORD, to Jerusalem: neither shall they walk any more after the imagination of their evil heart.”
• Isaiah 60:14 – “The sons also of them that afflicted thee shall come bending unto thee; and all they that despised thee shall bow themselves down at the soles of thy feet; and they shall call thee, The city of the LORD, The Zion of the Holy One of Israel.”
• Zechariah 8:3 – “Thus saith the LORD; I am returned unto Zion, and will dwell in the midst of Jerusalem: and Jerusalem shall be called a city of truth; and the mountain of the LORD of hosts the holy mountain.”
• Jeremiah 31:23 – “Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; As yet they shall use this speech in the land of Judah and in the cities thereof, when I shall bring again their captivity; The LORD bless thee, O habitation of justice, and mountain of holiness.”

Regarding the phrase “which is New Jerusalem,” see Revelation 21:2 for context: “And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.”

The expression “which cometh down out of heaven from my God” emphasizes the divine origin of this city and the character of its inhabitants. True saints must be spiritually reborn “born from above” as Jesus explained to Nicodemus. John 3:3 (margin) reads: “Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born from above, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

Other scriptures reinforce this heavenly transformation:

• James 1:17 – “Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.”
• 2 Corinthians 5:2–4 – “For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.”
• Galatians 4:6 – “And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.”

The redeemed are in a very real sense those who come down “out of heaven” not physically, but spiritually transformed, bearing the character and nature of their heavenly origin.

Jane, the evidence is so overwhelming that even I, who already believe these things, find it both compelling and deeply visionary.

You can't explain away God's Vision for Jerusalem can you? I mean, they encompass every part of His Character and purpose.

Here they are again:

Titles for New Jerusalem

• The LORD our Righteousness
• The Throne of the LORD
• The City of the LORD
• The Zion of the Holy One of Israel
• A City of Truth
• The Mountain of the LORD of Hosts
• The Habitation of Justice
• The Mountain of Holiness

 

[Aunty Jane]

I’d need to write a book to address all of this, so I will just respond to the parts that I disagree with….

Rev 2:7 is speaking to all Saints who partake of the tree of life and not a select group. We need to move you away from thinking the Saints are segmented in elite groups according to reward. This will take time and patience (from me lol). E.g 12 Apostles = 12 judges = reward the same responsibilities may differ, but all on earth!

If the “saints“ are not a separate group specially “chosen” for a role in the heavenly kingdom as Kings and Priests……who will be ruled by them, and for whom do they perform their priestly duties?

Paul alluded to two separate groups when he wrote his introduction to the Corinthians….

”To the church of God that is in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints together with all those who in every place call upon the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, both their Lord and ours“. (1 Cor 1:2 ESV)

Why do the “saints“ have a “calling” (Heb 3:1) but those who are not included in that designation, but are “together with“ them, are also said to be calling “on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ” who is identified as “their Lord and ours”?
Why the distinction?
This indicates to me that the “saints” have a “calling” that others do not. And it has nothing to do their own personal decision to become a Christian….these are individually “called” by God for a specific role. And it matters little if the numbers are literal or symbolic…..their choosing “from among mankind as firstfruits” (Rev 14:4) sets them apart from those not chosen……and alters nothing in the outworking of Jehovah’s purpose for them.

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, for according to his great mercy he gave us a new birth to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 to an incorruptible and undefiled and unfading inheritance. It is reserved in the heavens for you, 5 who are being safeguarded by God’s power through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last period of time.” 1 Peter 1:3–5 (NWT)

It's important to note that our living hope is reserved in heaven and will be revealed at Christ’s return. As 1 John 3:2 says, 'when he appears, we shall be like him."

And in what form will Jesus be when he makes his appearance along with his angels? He had already told his apostles that ‘the world would not see him again’, but that they would see him. How do they see him when others cannot?

According to scripture, what was “to be revealed in the last period of time” was a series of world events that would identify, not Christ’s “coming”…..but his “presence” (parousia) so his return was to be observed in two stages….initially only these specific world events would signify that he was “present” in kingdom power (Matt 24:3-14) and that he had begun his rulership “in the midst of his enemies” as David had foretold. (Psalm 110:1-2)

At the end of this period of separation, those who are “sheep” and those who are “goats”, would be placed in their respective ‘camps’ ready for sentence to be carried out upon his “manifestation” as judge and executioner, with his angelic army.

Christ’s return is not one event, he is already here and has been since 1914 when “the time of the end“ or “the last days” began. (Using the same calculations from Daniel’s prophesy that allowed the Jews to know when Messiah was due to make his appearance, which is why they had no excuse to reject him.)
All the features of “the sign of his presence” have been clearly seen since the very “First World War”….when “nation against nation and kingdom against kingdom“ wold be a war unlike any other in human history, and it came out of the blue when no one expected it.…we have not stopped experiencing these “signs” ever since.

Note: time stamp "then"

Fact 1. Christ has not come in his glory, though promised

He has come in the manner that the angels said he would….when he left to return to his Father in heaven, the apostles were told that he would return “in the same manner”, not in the same body. What was the manner of his departure? The world at large did not see it, and he disappeared in a cloud as he ascended. Only his chosen ones had observed it.

People had also heard him explain to the Pharisees, when asked by them when the kingdom of God was coming:…he answered…“The kingdom of God is not coming with striking observableness, neither will people be saying, ‘See here!’ or, ‘There!’ For, look! the kingdom of God is in your midst.”
There the king was “in their midst” and the Pharisees did not know it!

Jesus is already here and has been present in overseeing the work he assigned his disciples to carry on after his departure. (Matt 24:14; Matt 28:19-20) Who are out there preaching about the kingdom “in all the inhabited earth as a witness to all the nations” like Jesus and his disciples did….to all who will listen?

Fact 2. When he comes the Angels will accompany him to assist in the establishment of the Kingdom of Israel/God on Earth

Which will be at his manifestation, when all the nations will know that he has come as judge….too late then to ‘change lanes’. (Matt 7:21-23)
But the establishment of his Kingdom over the earth will only come about when all enemies are defeated and removed. His rulership has already been established over his true disciples on earth for over a 100 years….ruling them “in the midst of his enemies”….seeing to it that the all important preaching work was done.

Fact 3. He is not currently sitting on David's throne (in Heaven) as this is yet to be rebuilt in the land

If the Kingdom is already established in heaven and it’s rulers are already in place, then there is no need for a geographical location on earth…nor is there a need for a physical temple as all who serve as priests will be in heaven…..”the end“ will come as Jesus said, and there will be a heavenly government already fully functioning when he returns as judge, ready to take over rulership of this earth…..it will “crush” all corrupt human rulership out of existence, and replace them as mankind’s only government. (Daniel 2:44)

Jesus told the Samaritan woman at the well about where God’s worship would be established….

John 4:20-25…
”Jesus said to her, “Woman, believe me, the hour is coming when neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem will you worship the Father. You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, for salvation is from the Jews. But the hour is coming, and is now here, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for the Father is seeking such people to worship him. God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.” (ESV)

There was to be no geographical location for God’s worship in the future, because God’s purpose was now for all mankind….this is why it rules from heaven over the whole earth.

Proof 1 & 2. "Because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first." — 1 Thessalonians 4:16, NWT

Proof 3. In that day I will raise up the booth of David that is fallen, I will repair the breaches, and I will restore its ruins; I will rebuild it as in the days of long ago. Amos 9:11 (NWT) After these things I will return and raise up again the tent of David that has fallen down; I will rebuild its ruins and restore it Acts 15:16 (NWT)

David was said to sit “on Jehovah’s throne”…so “the throne of David” didn’t need to involve a geographical location in the future, because literal Jerusalem was no longer to be the seat of that global rulership. “The tent of David that was fallen down” was the reestablishment of God’s rulership over his people, now a global body of Christ’s followers. “New Jerusalem” would be the seat of that power….the body or bride of Christ as King.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Ruling from earth with Christ on Earth

Revelation 5:10: "And you have made them (Saints) a kingdom and priests to our God, and they shall reign on the earth."

So this Jane is an important verse as those who are represented is the complete number of the Saints.

What is also important is very small word in Greek in that statement. “ἐπὶ” which has more than one meaning….it can be rendered “on” “for” or “over”. So if it is misinterpreted, it changes the whole meaning of the sentence.…….”and they shall reign over the earth” can also be correct.

Other Scripture tells us how we should interpret that statement….and I have demonstrated already that no geographical location was mentioned for Christ’s rulership, which will be “over” the whole earth.

“For the first heaven and the first earth were passed away”

Their passing is described in Revelation 20:11, showing that these are symbolic terms rather than literal. If the literal heavens and earth were to flee from the face of the one on the throne, they would have done so from the beginning, for God's glory has always been present.

This new “heaven and earth” replaces what “fled away” at the conclusion of the Millennium, indicating a new order after Christ’s thousand-year reign. Prior to that time, death still exists; but with the final destruction of death and the grave, a condition of complete deathlessness will be introduced (Revelation 21:4).

Again when Peter said that we are to expect a “new heavens and a new earth” he was reiterating what Isaiah had already written in prophesy about the coming Kingdom.

In Isaiah 65:1-7; 11-12….Jehovah tells of his punishment for a people who continually offended and insulted him. It he goes on to tell of a ”new heavens and a new earth”….

Isaiah 65:11-25…
“For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth, and the former things shall not be remembered or come into mind. But be glad and rejoice forever in that which I create; for behold, I create Jerusalem to be a joy, and her people to be a gladness. I will rejoice in Jerusalem and be glad in my people; no more shall be heard in it the sound of weeping and the cry of distress. No more shall there be in it an infant who lives but a few days, or an old man who does not fill out his days, for the young man shall die a hundred years old, and the sinner a hundred years old shall be accursed. They shall build houses and inhabit them; they shall plant vineyards and eat their fruit. They shall not build and another inhabit; they shall not plant and another eat; for like the days of a tree shall the days of my people be, and my chosen shall long enjoy the work of their hands. They shall not labor in vain nor bear children for calamity, for they shall be the offspring of the blessed of the Lord, and their descendants with them. Before they call I will answer; while they are yet speaking I will hear. The wolf and the lamb shall graze together; the lion shall eat straw like the ox, and dust shall be the serpent's food.They shall not hurt or destroy in all my holy mountain,” says the Lord.” (ESV)

This is not a prophesy about the faithless Jews and literal Jerusalem…..it is about the future when God’s people will all enjoy the peace and prosperity of the “new heaven and new earth”….one in which Peter said “righteousness will dwell”.
Not just a “new Jerusalem” but a “new earth”…..which will mean global blessings for all redeemed mankind.

The “new heavens” is God‘s Kingdom in the hands of his Messiah, ruling over a people who will all enjoy the endless blessings of a “new earth”, where no one will have to suffer or die. Even the animals will be at peace with each other.

This is the reestablishment of God’s rulership over the earth, which was interrupted when a rebel spirit derailed God’s original purpose for the earth and mankind…..and required a solution that would not only deal with the rebels, but also teach us so much about what God requires of his earthly children, and also what happens in the heavenly realm of God’s other “sons”. It really is all about the importance of obedience to our Creator.

The Bible is a portal into the other realm…..a realm that is impossible for us to observe from our earthly viewpoint, but one which God opens up to us, to show us that we are not the only ones with free will and need his discipline. The rebellion in Eden would serve as a learning curve about how we are to use our freewill as the gift it was meant to be, instead of the curse it became when it was abused. Both humans and angels would benefit from this exercise….lessons learned would last forever.

This point is moot as Christ is coming to sit upon Davids throne to establish a Kingdom on Earth, which he will hand back to his Father and the conclusion of his reign. God will be all and in all and the Earth will know of His Glory as the waters cover the sea.

David’s throne is Jehovah’s rulership exercised through human representatives. This throne will not be in literal Jerusalem, nor is it an earthly throne, as all thrones are said to be in heaven.
New Jerusalem and the heavenly Mount Zion are are not earthly locations.

Hebrews 12:22-24….
”But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, and to the assembly of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.” (ESV)

What you believe is earthly is said to be heavenly. “The city of the living God” is “heavenly Jerusalem”….this “Mount Zion” is not on earth either.

He already told them he would come back again!

John 14:2–3 "In my Father's house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you?
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also."

The eternal life is reserved in Heaven ready to be revealed at his coming.

Yes……he was coming back to take them to where he had “prepared a place” for them. If they were on earth and he was coming back here to the earth, why did he need to “take” them anywhere?

their lives are with Christ ready to be revealed upon his return

They would sleep in their graves until it was time for his “parousia”….then he would raise them as ”firstfruits” and all throughout the time period of the last days, as they would no longer need to sleep in death, they would be instantly taken to their heavenly assignments. This is how he brings them “with him” when he comes to make his judgments and pass sentence on the goats. (1 Thess 4:14)

God’s Kingdom is already established in heaven with everything in place ready to take over rulership of the earth once Christ and his angels have dealt with all opposers. The “crushing” of the nations is about to take place as Jesus and his “joint heirs” bring in the best government that humans have ever had.

The entire work of the Saints is on earth and the eventual conversion of all nations.

Just as Israel took the wealth of Egypt to honor the Tabernacle, so God is "taking out of the Gentiles a people for His name" (Acts 15:14).

The taking of the gentiles as “a people for his name” began in the first century when God canged what it meant to be ”Jewish”. Gentiles could now become part of God’s new nation without the need to convert to Judaism, demonstrating a separation that would be permanent. “The Israel of God” were no longer exclusively Jewish….but would include people of all nations, just as God had promised Abraham. (Gen 22:18)

You will get there Jane - its all on Earth!

Don’t hold your breath sunshine….

As you may be starting to see - your Scriptures are actually showing you another vision, one which I am certain will be revealed to you.

Sorry, not starting to see anything that changes what I believe to be true. The Scriptures are showing me something completely different to what you are suggesting.

I liked your closing comments above and agree...all that's lacking is an understanding of the literal Kingdom of God on Earth and everything else seems to be in order.

So we are at an impasse…..? The Kingdom of God is a heavenly government, ruling over redeemed mankind on earth. I see nothing in what you have shared that changes my mind on that.

 

[Hiddenthings]

I’d need to write a book to address all of this, so I will just respond to the parts that I disagree with….

No problem.

If the “saints“ are not a separate group specially “chosen” for a role in the heavenly kingdom as Kings and Priests……who will be ruled by them, and for whom do they perform their priestly duties?

All Saints are called and chosen - no one who enters the Kingdom of God will not have been chosen.

Paul alluded to two separate groups when he wrote his introduction to the Corinthians….

”To the church of God that is in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints together with all those who in every place call upon the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, both their Lord and ours“. (1 Cor 1:2 ESV)

Why do the “saints“ have a “calling” (Heb 3:1) but those who are not included in that designation, but are “together with“ them, are also said to be calling “on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ” who is identified as “their Lord and ours”?
Why the distinction?

Your reading that incorrectly Jane.

The first part of the verse is referencing the Saints at Corinth and then he alludes/connects all the other Saints elsewhere throughout the World.

"together" is the connection of Saints near and far who are not in Corinth.

Paul doesn't need to mention the word Saints again as the context is already known.

But if it helps this is what he is saying ”To the church of God that is in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints together with all those (Saints) who in every place call upon the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, both their Lord and ours“

And in what form will Jesus be when he makes his appearance along with his angels? He had already told his apostles that ‘the world would not see him again’, but that they would see him. How do they see him when others cannot?

I assume you are referencing John 14:19,20 again?

Yet a "little while" and the world will see me no more, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live Jn 14:19.

Here it is again in John 16:16

“A little while, and you will see me no longer; and again a little while, and you will see me.” 17 So some of his disciples said to one another, “What is this that he says to us, ‘A little while, and you will not see me, and again a little while, and you will see me’; and, ‘because I am going to the Father’? Jn 16:16–17.

What is the little while?
Or should I ask how long was the little while?
When did the world not see him, but the disciples did?

And why would these words puzzle the disciples? what did they not know or understand?

I think you are taking this verse out of context and applying it to the wrong time period.

Think about it Jane, the answer is obvious.

As for the rest of your reply, I need to set that aside for now and revisit it later. You’ve brought up the idea of Christ having already returned, but I need to work out how to approach this and I’m not ready to explore that at the moment. For now, let’s focus on whether you’re reading 1 Corinthians 1:2 accurately, and how you’re interpreting John 14:19–20 and John 16:16–17

If we can lock some of these away we can move on to looking at Christ's return and the events that surround that event.

 

[Hiddenthings]

What is also important is very small word in Greek in that statement. “ἐπὶ” which has more than one meaning….it can be rendered “on” “for” or “over”. So if it is misinterpreted, it changes the whole meaning of the sentence.…….”and they shall reign over the earth” can also be correct.

I think you need to apply some logic here. Earth is the location of judgement "And when he comes, he will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment" John 16:8

This activity includes the Saints of the Most High God who with Christ (when he comes) will establish a Kingdom on earth - that which the meek (Saints) have inherited.

I'm starting to wonder whether we are reading the same Bible?

Other Scripture tells us how we should interpret that statement….and I have demonstrated already that no geographical location was mentioned for Christ’s rulership, which will be “over” the whole earth.

This is a bias you are applying at the expense of the vast number of quotes which teach you Christ is returning to the Earth. Words like in, other, for, all carry the meaning that the Saints (together) will reign over the Earth when Jesus returns.

Isaiah 65:11-25…
“For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth, and the former things shall not be remembered or come into mind.

What is the former things Jane?

How is Heaven and Earth used here?

“Give ear, O heavens, and I will speak, and let the earth hear the words of my mouth. Dt 32:1

Interpret what the Heavens and Earth are symbolic of please.

Again I've parked the rest of your reply as this lesson above is important if you are to interpret the Heaven and Earth periods correctly.

 

[Hiddenthings]

Hebrews 12:22-24….
”But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, and to the assembly of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.” (ESV)

What you believe is earthly is said to be heavenly. “The city of the living God” is “heavenly Jerusalem”….this “Mount Zion” is not on earth either.

I will deal with this as it's rather easy.

The reason it's called Heavenly Jerusalem is because unlike all other Kingdoms (earthly) this one has its origins in Heaven. It's coming from Heaven with Christ upon his return.

Notice how the enrollment is also in Heaven where hope is anchored behind the curtain?

When will that enrollment be revealed in the earth for all Saints?

Philippians 3:20 (ESV) “But our citizenship is in heaven, and from it we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ...”

Await from Earth or Heaven?

1 John 3:2 (ESV): “Beloved, we are God's children now, and what we will be has not yet appeared; but we know that when he appears we shall be like him, because we shall see him as he is.”

Appear where? And how?

“Behold, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him, and all tribes of the earth will wail on account of him. Even so. Amen.” Rev 1:7

Will all the tribes of the Earth be taken to Heaven?

“Kingdom of Heaven” appears 32 times in the Gospel of Matthew not Kingdom in Heaven

I could go on but its foolishness to ignore the fact that Christ is bringing a Kingdom to Earth, one which he and Father have been preparing for the past 2000 years.

 

[Hiddenthings]

John 4:20-25…
”Jesus said to her, “Woman, believe me, the hour is coming when neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem will you worship the Father. You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, for salvation is from the Jews. But the hour is coming, and is now here, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for the Father is seeking such people to worship him. God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.” (ESV)

There was to be no geographical location for God’s worship in the future, because God’s purpose was now for all mankind….this is why it rules from heaven over the whole earth.

The Lord was using Gerizim & Jerusalem as mere places and not speaking to the actual location of the future temple and city. I think you are drawing a long bow using that reference sorry.

 

[Hiddenthings]

David was said to sit “on Jehovah’s throne”…so “the throne of David” didn’t need to involve a geographical location in the future, because literal Jerusalem was no longer to be the seat of that global rulership. “The tent of David that was fallen down” was the reestablishment of God’s rulership over his people, now a global body of Christ’s followers. “New Jerusalem” would be the seat of that power….the body or bride of Christ as King.

Sit on Thrones

• Thrones for judgment have been established, the thrones of the house of David. (Psalm 122:5)
• In the time of renewal (Kingdom age), you who have followed me will also sit on thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. (Matthew 19:28; Luke 22:30)
• I saw thrones, and those seated on them were given authority to judge. (Revelation 20:4)
• To the one who conquers, I will grant to sit with me on my throne. (Revelation 3:21)
• Grant that my two sons may sit, one at your right hand and one at your left, in your kingdom. (Matthew 20:21)
• You will see Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and all the prophets in the Kingdom of God (on earth), and many will come to sit down in the kingdom. (Luke 13:28–29; Matthew 8:11)

It's clear the thrones references above include the Throne of David yet to be rebuilt as prophecied.

After these things I will return and raise up again the tent of David that has fallen down; I will rebuild its ruins and restore it,’” Acts 15:16

So when they had gathered together, they were asking him, “Lord, are you restoring the kingdom to Israel at this time? Acts 1:6

Kingdom of Israel is synonymous with the Kingdom of God - just as you quoted early "Salvation is of the Jews" and as Paul said "All Israel will be saved"

The hope is Israelish as Paul said Acts 28:20 (NWT) “For this reason I have bound myself with this chain, so that the hope of Israel may be maintained.”

These are foundational truths of the true Gospel of God, as stated in Romans 1:1-3 Jesus Christ, a descendant of David, appointed to sit upon his throne!

 

[Aunty Jane]

All Saints are called and chosen - no one who enters the Kingdom of God will not have been chosen.

I agree…but what I disagree with is that all Christians are “saints”.
They are “the chosen ones”, who are “firstfruits from among mankind”….they are “resurrected first” and they alone will be kings and priests. Kings need subjects and priests need sinners for whom to carry out their priestly duties…that is logical to me.

Your reading that incorrectly Jane.

Who says? I could say the same…..this is really all about interpretation, not truth per se.
Your truth is not my truth.

The first part of the verse is referencing the Saints at Corinth and then he alludes/connects all the other Saints elsewhere throughout the World.

"together" is the connection of Saints near and far who are not in Corinth.

Paul doesn't need to mention the word Saints again as the context is already known.

But if it helps this is what he is saying ”To the church of God that is in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints together with all those (Saints) who in every place call upon the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, both their Lord and ours“

That again is interpretation…you are placing an invisible comma where there isn’t one….and adding a word that are not there either. It’s easy to twist Scripture when it’s not saying what you want it to.

What is the little while?
Or should I ask how long was the little while?
When did the world not see him, but the disciples did?

And why would these words puzzle the disciples? what did they not know or understand?

What is “a little while” to God and his Christ in heaven? Since “a thousand years” is just like “one day” to them, that is a good question. The coming of the Kingdom was always spoken of as immanent, and for good reason, since the timeframe for God’s purpose to be worked out, involved his spirit sons as well as his earthly children, he would conduct this object lesson in the realm where the most damage could be done.

Spirit beings are not governed by the rotation of our earth….so this all takes place in Universal time so that no spirit creature will ever be able to abuse their free will again. Remember that the first rebel who caused all this trouble for us, was not human.

Another reason is that the “hope” they had been given would have faded fast if they knew that the fulfillment of the promise was yet thousands of years away. No one has to wait for the kingdom to “come” longer than their own lifetime. Time stands still for those in Sheol.

But the other question that needs to be asked is….if the world was not going to “see” Jesus again, in what form is his return? How will they “see” him?…or is there another way to “see” things?…especially when it says those who pierced him would do so…? Those who executed Jesus are long dead.

Rev 1:7 says: “Look! he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, and those who pierced him; and all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in grief because of him.”

Since the saints will “see” him, but “the world will see him no more”….in what way will “every eye see him”……doesn’t that raise some serious questions in your view?

If they are all spirits in a spiritual realm, who conduct their business on earth, as God has done all through human history, rather than appearing on earth as humans (as I assume you to mean) to conduct that business, your scenario doesn’t make any scriptural sense to me. Jesus went away to “prepare a place for“ his elect “in his Father’s house” and said he was “coming back to take them to where he was”….so where is he taking them?

I think you are taking this verse out of context and applying it to the wrong time period.

Perhaps I think you are doing the same…?

 

[Hiddenthings]

I agree…but what I disagree with is that all Christians are “saints”.
They are “the chosen ones”, who are “firstfruits from among mankind”….they are “resurrected first” and they alone will be kings and priests. Kings need subjects and priests need sinners for whom to carry out their priestly duties…that is logical to me.

Like unto the angels and while it's clear there is a hierarchical arrangement they are all angels.

It is the Saints of the Most High God who shall receive the Kingdom - no distinction at all.

• Daniel 7:18 — "But the saints of the Most High shall receive the kingdom and possess the kingdom forever, forever and ever."
• Daniel 7:21–22 — "This horn made war with the saints and prevailed over them, until the Ancient of Days came... and the time came when the saints possessed the kingdom."
• Daniel 7:25 — "He shall wear out the saints of the Most High, and shall think to change the times and the law..."
• Daniel 7:27 — "The kingdom... shall be given to the people of the saints of the Most High..."

Interesting phrase verse 27 ;)

That again is interpretation…you are placing an invisible comma where there isn’t one….and adding a word that are not there either. It’s easy to twist Scripture when it’s not saying what you want it to.

If you cannot accept the context is Paul addressing Saints who else is in Paul mind? Your above response is not enough and not to your usual standard

What is “a little while” to God and his Christ in heaven? Since “a thousand years” is just like “one day” to them, that is a good question. The coming of the Kingdom was always spoken of as immanent, and for good reason, since the timeframe for God’s purpose to be worked out, involved his spirit sons as well as his earthly children, he would conduct this object lesson in the realm where the most damage could be done.

No Jane.

“A Little While” – It's two “little whiles” being separated by the three days between his death and resurrection!

“Ye Shall Not See Me” – “see” Grk: “to be a spectator”

“Ye Shall See Me” – “see” – different word “to gaze in amazement”.

A clear distinction is maintained between the two Greek words translated "see" in John 16:17 and John 16:19:

John 16:22 (ESV) – "So also you have sorrow now, but I will see you again, and your hearts will rejoice, and no one will take your joy from you."

John 1:50–51 (ESV) – Jesus answered him, “Because I said to you, ‘I saw you under the fig tree,’ do you believe? You will see greater things than these.” And he said to him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, you will see heaven opened, and the angels of God ascending and descending on the Son of Man.”

John 11:40 (ESV) – Jesus said to her, “Did I not tell you that if you believed you would see the glory of God?”

1 John 3:2 (ESV) – "Beloved, we are God’s children now, and what we will be has not yet appeared; but we know that when he appears we shall be like him, because we shall see him as he is."

After His resurrection, Jesus was seen (Greek: ōphthē – a form of horaō, to perceive with understanding) by His disciples:

1 Corinthians 15:5–8 (ESV) – "And that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. Then he appeared to more than five hundred brothers at one time... Last of all, as to one untimely born, he appeared also to me."

In John 16:10, Jesus says: “concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father, and you will see me no longer”

— here, see (Greek: theōreō) suggests visible, physical observation. They would no longer observe Him in the same earthly way.

Yet in John 16:22, Jesus promises: “I will see you again” — this is horaō, implying a deeper recognition.

Though they would no longer see him physically as before, they would see the risen Christ in a new, transformative way—a perception they had never experienced before.

Can you "see" what the Lord is saying now about "a little while?"

The context here Jane has nothing to do with his second coming, but Jesus preparing his disciples for his death and resurrection.

But the other question that needs to be asked is….if the world was not going to “see” Jesus again, in what form is his return? How will they “see” him?…or is there another way to “see” things?…especially when it says those who pierced him would do so…? Those who executed Jesus are long dead.

Rev 1:7 says: “Look! he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, and those who pierced him; and all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in grief because of him.”

Since the saints will “see” him, but “the world will see him no more”….in what way will “every eye see him”……doesn’t that raise some serious questions in your view?

See, you have gone on with your incorrect interpretation and not addressed what was in the Lords mind.

The Context is not difficult to see John 16:20

“Ye Shall Weep” always a contrast to the attitude of the world
“Your Sorrow Shall Be Turned To Joy” not simply from sorrow to joy, but that the sorrow itself shall become joy, hence the figure of childbirth! 2 Tim 2:11-12

2 Timothy 2:11–12 (ESV)
The saying is trustworthy, for: If we have died with him, we will also live with him; if we endure, we will also reign with him; if we deny him, he also will deny us;

A little while was only 3 days but...! The world did not see him but the disciples did!

 

[Aunty Jane]

Like unto the angels and while it's clear there is a hierarchical arrangement they are all angels.

It is the Saints of the Most High God who shall receive the Kingdom - no distinction at all.

• Daniel 7:18 — "But the saints of the Most High shall receive the kingdom and possess the kingdom forever, forever and ever."
• Daniel 7:21–22 — "This horn made war with the saints and prevailed over them, until the Ancient of Days came... and the time came when the saints possessed the kingdom."
• Daniel 7:25 — "He shall wear out the saints of the Most High, and shall think to change the times and the law..."
• Daniel 7:27 — "The kingdom... shall be given to the people of the saints of the Most High..."

Interesting phrase verse 27 ;)

I have no problem with the “saints” being “saints”, chosen by God for a specific purpose…..but I am suggesting to you that not all Christians are “saints”. Just as not all Israel were kings or priests.
“The people of the saints of the Most High” is a very interesting term…..what “people” are these?

If you cannot accept the context is Paul addressing Saints who else is in Paul mind? Your above response is not enough and not to your usual standard

I’m sorry but you quoted a Scripture, and you altered it to fit your belief…..
Please don’t do that. Let the Bible speak for itself.

“A Little While” – It's two “little whiles” being separated by the three days between his death and resurrection!

“Ye Shall Not See Me” – “see” Grk: “to be a spectator”

“Ye Shall See Me” – “see” – different word “to gaze in amazement”.

A clear distinction is maintained between the two Greek words translated "see" in John 16:17 and John 16:19:

John 16:22 (ESV) – "So also you have sorrow now, but I will see you again, and your hearts will rejoice, and no one will take your joy from you."

Strongs Concordance disagrees with you….these are all the same word. G3708…..”horaō”.

John 1:50–51 (ESV) – Jesus answered him, “Because I said to you, ‘I saw you under the fig tree,’ do you believe? You will see greater things than these.” And he said to him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, you will see heaven opened, and the angels of God ascending and descending on the Son of Man.”

John 11:40 (ESV) – Jesus said to her, “Did I not tell you that if you believed you would see the glory of God?”

1 John 3:2 (ESV) – "Beloved, we are God’s children now, and what we will be has not yet appeared; but we know that when he appears we shall be like him, because we shall see him as he is."

Again all the same word. You appear to be putting your own emphasis on the word “see” when it suits you to do so.

After His resurrection, Jesus was seen (Greek: ōphthē – a form of horaō, to perceive with understanding) by His disciples:

1 Corinthians 15:5–8 (ESV) – "And that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. Then he appeared to more than five hundred brothers at one time... Last of all, as to one untimely born, he appeared also to me."

In John 16:10, Jesus says: “concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father, and you will see me no longer”

— here, see (Greek: theōreō) suggests visible, physical observation. They would no longer observe Him in the same earthly way.

In what “form” was Jesus “seen” after his resurrection? In what sort of body was Christ raised?
This will tell me how you are interpreting those verses.

Yet in John 16:22, Jesus promises: “I will see you again” — this is horaō, implying a deeper recognition.

Though they would no longer see him physically as before, they would see the risen Christ in a new, transformative way—a perception they had never experienced before.

Can you "see" what the Lord is saying now about "a little while?"

The context here Jane has nothing to do with his second coming, but Jesus preparing his disciples for his death and resurrection.

No….I see Jesus warning his disciples about his death and putting emphasis on his resurrection, but at that time they did not yet know what was going to happen, as their question to him as he was leaving to return to his Father, indicated that they had expectations that were not going to be realized…tied up with their former beliefs about where the Kingdom was going to be established. (Acts 1:6)

He told them to wait for the holy spirit which would be given a few days later. Only at that time were the disciples made aware of their “heavenly calling”….and eternal destination.

See, you have gone on with your incorrect interpretation and not addressed what was in the Lords mind.

In your opinion…..we are not going to convince each other of anything in this thread…..all we can do is compare notes and agree to disagree on various points. If you are expecting anything else, I am sorry to disappoint you….it’s not happening.

The Context is not difficult to see John 16:20

“Ye Shall Weep” always a contrast to the attitude of the world
“Your Sorrow Shall Be Turned To Joy” not simply from sorrow to joy, but that the sorrow itself shall become joy, hence the figure of childbirth! 2 Tim 2:11-12

2 Timothy 2:11–12 (ESV)
The saying is trustworthy, for: If we have died with him, we will also live with him; if we endure, we will also reign with him; if we deny him, he also will deny us;

A little while was only 3 days but...! The world did not see him but the disciples did!

The Jewish world was indeed glad to see the back of him, as were the Romans who had to deal with the Jews complaining about him. At his death, as Jesus warned, the apostles left him…..but after they received word of his resurrection, we can only imagine their joy.

But applying this to only one reason for their joy is a bit short sighted IMO…..There was much to be joyful about despite the increasing persecution that they would receive. The joy of his resurrection resounds even to the present day….as a guarantee for all the dead that a resurrection also awaits them too.