new testament way God calls pastors

[horsecamp]

God does not appear in burning bushes and give a direct call now days ..


so the question is does he call by his people casting lots or votes?

acts 1 :12-36


most of those who studied the original language beleive each lot cast identified the person who the deciple wanted

to win . perhaps part of the name was inscribed on the lot or perhaps the lots were very simular and only differed for each person one wanted to vote for ...

in simple words they "elected" Mathas to take judas place . they just used lots and yes God guided the hearts and elections made by the deciples and God was realy the one deciding ..


just as congregation elect whom to call as their pastor now days .. after they receive the pastors qualifications and why he thinks he would be the best pastor for that congregation.

of course they have to meet the qualification's the new testament established be for they can be voted in.. husband of one wife etc etc etc etc etc

instead of using lots now days,, Men in the congregation after MUCH praying THAT God Guide them simply say

yea or nea for who of the men they want for their pastor ..
the most yeas wins the vote ..

 

[marksman]

Nowhere in scripture does it talk about bringing a pastor from outside of the church to lead it and pay him a salary. And the qualification you are talking about in scripture refer to Elders chosen from within the fellowship, not brought in from outside.

 

[horsecamp]

so your saying wels which is one congregation with many churches and pastors and its own seminary and all over the world would be doing right according to you by not going out side our fellowship to seek a pastor .. but the missouri syond lutheran church who conciders all its congregations to be seperate from each other except in faith would be wrong when they hire a pastor from lets say THEIR SEM IN ft wayne rather than THEIR SEM at concordia in missour ..

how sweet of you ---we in wels would love to agree with you excepting ONE LITTLE THING your wrong... but we can accuse them pesky lcms just the same just for fun .. excepting pastor Hans Fienie ,,, would propably make a Lutheran satire movie about wels making fun of US IF WE DID .. so we better not !!

(INSIDE JOKE )


God no where commands christian churches not to hire A CHRISTIAN TO BE THEIR PASTORS OUT SIDE OF THEIR CONGREGATION ..

THE RESTRICTION IS ONE CAN NOT BE A "NEW CONVERT" TO CHRISTIANITY ..


.

 

[mjrhealth]

WHy would God send anyone to seminary school, that would just make a man made preacher. God does call, but most out there today are not called. Just because a man calls himself, pastor, preaher, evangelst. pope, prophet, and has a worldly piece of paper to say so, does not mean they are called of God,

The blind leading the blind and they shall all fall into the ditch.

In all His Love

 

[Quantrill]

WHy would God send anyone to seminary school, that would just make a man made preacher. God does call, but most out there today are not called. Just because a man calls himself, pastor, preaher, evangelst. pope, prophet, and has a worldly piece of paper to say so, does not mean they are called of God,

The blind leading the blind and they shall all fall into the ditch.

In all His Love

A man is a pastor or teacher if God has gifted him in that when he was first born-again. No position or peiece of paper makes him that.

That being said, the man who is gifted in this also has a great desire to learn and teach the Word of God or to pastor the people of God. Seminaries and Bible colleges were set up by Christians to further this purpose.

Ignorance is not to be equated with spirituality, as it commonly is. So the one gifted goes to where he has both the access of knowledge and the time to learn more concerning the Bible and his ability to use his gift.

I have no problem with a Church looking for a pastor outside of their Church. I have a problem with many in what they are looking for.

Quantrill

 

[horsecamp]

No where does the bible say a man is a pastor just because they are born again .. their is however the royal priest hood of believers and i think thats what you mean .. This call is a general call for every believer ---------and that call "is to declaire the praises of the triune God who called them out of darkness into his wonderful light.."


Every christian needs to do that its the priest hood of every believer to do that.. Luther wrote extensivly on this . its a large part of the reAson for the reformation ..


Still that is not the call Gods give to those who will pastor a congregation ... He calls those believers that meet his qualifications for the pastoral call now through the congregation ..And their is every thing Right with making sure before the call such men who want to be called are the best trained for the job of pastors in the original biblical languages also how to minister
to people with special problems mental or other wise..

a through study of the bible distinguishes one; call from the other .


i would also like to say on church and ministry (and not the priesthood call of all believers that Luther Covered..)

my church body spent "A hundred years" of bible study just on this subject .. and those who want to view the conclutions are welcome .. to..

http://www.wels.net/about-wels/doctrinal-statements/church-and-ministry


all the doctrine covered here on church and ministry..

http://www.wels.net/search/apachesolr_search/church%20and%20ministry


and the doctrine of -----priest hood of believers covered here

http://www.wels.net/search/apachesolr_search/priest%20hood%20of%20believers

 

[Dodo_David]

The Apostle Paul has already given us the qualifications that a person has to meet in order to become an Episcopal*.

As I see it, we risk error by adding anything to what Paul wrote about that subject.


[*Note: Episcopal is the English transliteration of the Greek word that Paul uses.]

 

[marksman]

how sweet of you ---we in wels would love to agree with you excepting ONE LITTLE THING your wrong..

Then prove me wrong. Produce the scriptures that tell us to employ pastors from outside the fellowship and pay them a salary.

God no where commands christian churches not to hire A CHRISTIAN TO BE THEIR PASTORS OUT SIDE OF THEIR CONGREGATION ..

Yes he does. In Timothy and Titus the requirements of leadership are set out very specifically and not once does it mention about bringing a pastor from outside to run the fellowship. If that is not clear enough then nothing will be.

In addition there are 25 verses in the New Testament which speaks about leadership. They talk about Apostles, Prophets and Elders. Not once do they mention pastors. You can't get more conclusive than that.

 

[Dodo_David]

Then prove me wrong. Produce the scriptures that tell us to employ pastors from outside the fellowship and pay them a salary.

How about listing the Scriptures that prevent a Christian congregation from obtaining a pastor who is not already a member of that congregation?

If you are going to claim that a particular limitation exists, then it is up to you to demonstrate from Scripture that the limit exists.

By the way, in 1 Corinthians 9:13-14, the Apostle Paul writes, "Do you not know that those who are employed in the temple service get their food from the temple, and those who serve at the altar share in the sacrificial offerings? In the same way, the Lord commanded that those who proclaim the gospel should get their living by the gospel." (ESV) Thus, it isn't unbiblical to pay a pastor a salary.

 

[marksman]

my church body spent "A hundred years" of bible study just on this subject .. and those who want to view the conclutions are welcome .. to..

Sorry to say horsecamp I have never based my faith and understanding on Lutheran theology. If I did that I would have rejected so many things that are in scripture and accepted many things that are not in scripture just like so many other denominations who elevate their denominational traditions above the word of God.

How about listing the Scriptures that prevent a Christian congregation from obtaining a pastor who is not already a member of that congregation?

I have made it very clear already. Timothy and Titus DO NOT include pastors in leadership. The leadership discussion uses the word "presbuteros", the word for Elder. The word for pastor is "poimen" and that word is not there in Timothy and Titus. If pastors were included in leadership, why is there no mention of them or in the 25 verses I alluded to?

I cannot believe that God would inspire 25 verses and two passages which accord with each other and are very specific and then intend us to put our own spin on it to suit our take on things.

By the way, in 1 Corinthians 9:13-14, the Apostle Paul writes, "Do you not know that those who are employed in the temple service get their food from the temple, and those who serve at the altar share in the sacrificial offerings? In the same way, the Lord commanded that those who proclaim the gospel should get their living by the gospel." (ESV) Thus, it isn't unbiblical to pay a pastor a salary.

You have forgotten one thing. This chapter is about apostles, not pastors.

 

[Dodo_David]

In Acts 20:28, the Apostle Paul tells the Elders of the Ephesian congregation, "Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. Be shepherds of the church of God, which he bought with his own blood." (ESV)

So, in one sentence, Paul describes elders as being overseers and shepherds. The last time that I checked, the word "pastor" means "shepherd".

 

[marksman]

In Acts 20:28, the Apostle Paul tells the Elders of the Ephesian congregation, "Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. Be shepherds of the church of God, which he bought with his own blood." (ESV)

So, in one sentence, Paul describes elders as being overseers and shepherds. The last time that I checked, the word "pastor" means "shepherd".

Act 20:17 And sending to Ephesus from Miletus, he called for the elders of the assembly. The word is presbuteros not poimen.

Act 20:28 Then take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit placed you as overseers, to shepherd the assembly of God which He purchased through His own blood.

The word overseer is episkopos which means bishop or overseer. It does not mean pastor as the word is not poimen.

Paul told the ELDERS (presbuteros) to shepherd, (poimaino; to tend as a shepherd). Again the word poimen/pastor is not there, so once again you are putting your own spin on it.

The Elders had four responsibilities. oversee, teach, discipline and shepherd. In their shepherding it is clear the role was as a servant, not a leader as ministry in the New Testament Church was in essence waiting at tables, not sitting at the top table.

 

[Dodo_David]

The NASB gives this reading of Acts 20:28: "Be on guard for yourselves and for all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood."

The last time that I checked, shepherds perform the job of shepherding.

What is to prevent an elder from also being a pastor?

In a Presbyterian congregation, the congregation is governed by a group of ruling elders, while teaching elders are in charge of giving sermons and performing the other tasks of pastors.

 

[Rach1370]

Then prove me wrong. Produce the scriptures that tell us to employ pastors from outside the fellowship and pay them a salary.

Ummm. What do you mean by "Outside the fellowship"?? Because I would think that the criteria for "of the fellowship" would be fairly easy....Christian, or not-a-Christian. Aren't all Christians by nature a 'fellowship'??
Are you talking about specific denominations? As is, a Baptist Church must hire a Baptist Pastor? Because that still allows for a Pastor to be called who did not previously attend their 'church'.

I have made it very clear already. Timothy and Titus DO NOT include pastors in leadership. The leadership discussion uses the word "presbuteros", the word for Elder. The word for pastor is "poimen" and that word is not there in Timothy and Titus. If pastors were included in leadership, why is there no mention of them or in the 25 verses I alluded to?

1 Timothy 3:8 speaks of Deacons. 1 Timothy 5:17 speaks of Elders (and here is the word 'presbuteros' that you are referring to), but 1 Timothy 3:1 speaks of "Overseer"...or "episkopos" in Greek, which translates to "overseer, supervisor, ruler" or "properly, an overseer; a man called by God to literally "keep an eye on" His flock (the Church, the body of Christ), i.e. to provide personalized (first hand) care and protection (note the epi, "on")."
I think it is fairly clear that 1 Timothy does in fact address the position of Pastor, even if they do not use that particular name. The role is specifically defined, and I believe we must not ignore what the bible teaches just because we cannot reconcile a word which has more modern connotations. Back then it would have been shepherd, or even...apostle. "apostolos" - "a messenger, envoy, delegate, one commissioned by another to represent him in some way, especially a man sent out by Jesus Christ Himself to preach the Gospel; an apostle." Perhaps "Teacher" - "didaskalos" - "a teacher, an instructor acknowledged for their mastery in their field of learning; in Scripture, a Bible teacher, competent in theology."

Paul calls himself many things: "For this I was appointed a preacher and an apostle (I am telling the truth, I am not lying), a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth. (1 Timothy 2:7, ESV)"

Whatever the case...those who stand under Christ, but at the head of the Church and preach the Gospel of Christ....he may be called many things....Pastor, preacher, teacher, overseer.

 

[marksman]

The NASB gives this reading of Acts 20:28: "Be on guard for yourselves and for all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood."

If you had taken the time to read my posts on the subject, you will notice that I don't use the NASB, the NIV, the King James, The CEV. I use the original Greek. That way I am not tempted to use the version that suits my ideas.

What is to prevent an elder from also being a pastor?

What is preventing you from reading what I said which was that one of the four responsibilities of the Elder was shepherding. Those that did the shepherding (not all did) were chosen first as an Elder from within the fellowship, not as a shepherd and whilst they may do shepherding they were also responsible for the other three aspects of their calling and the word shepherd/pastor (poimen) was never used to refer to them.

In a Presbyterian congregation, the congregation is governed by a group of ruling elders, while teaching elders are in charge of giving sermons and performing the other tasks of pastors.

My source is only ever the Word of God, not the Presbyterian, Baptist, Anglican, Catholic, Methodist, Congregational, Pentecostal, Charismatic or any other denomination.

I was very clearly directed by God to study the New Testament Church without any reference to any denomination, which I did for two years. After that I picked up any book that had the word Church in its Title. Over 40 of them. In addition I wrote to Denominational leaders for comments on why they did what they did.

After all that study, I feel fairly confident that I have got a handle on things.

 

[Quantrill]

No where does the bible say a man is a pastor just because they are born again .. their is however the royal priest hood of believers and i think thats what you mean .. This call is a general call for every believer ---------and that call "is to declaire the praises of the triune God who called them out of darkness into his wonderful light.."


Every christian needs to do that its the priest hood of every believer to do that.. Luther wrote extensivly on this . its a large part of the reAson for the reformation ..


Still that is not the call Gods give to those who will pastor a congregation ... He calls those believers that meet his qualifications for the pastoral call now through the congregation ..And their is every thing Right with making sure before the call such men who want to be called are the best trained for the job of pastors in the original biblical languages also how to minister
to people with special problems mental or other wise..

a through study of the bible distinguishes one; call from the other .


i would also like to say on church and ministry (and not the priesthood call of all believers that Luther Covered..)

my church body spent "A hundred years" of bible study just on this subject .. and those who want to view the conclutions are welcome .. to..

http://www.wels.net/about-wels/doctrinal-statements/church-and-ministry



all the doctrine covered here on church and ministry..

http://www.wels.net/search/apachesolr_search/church%20and%20ministry


and the doctrine of -----priest hood of believers covered here

http://www.wels.net/search/apachesolr_search/priest%20hood%20of%20believers

1Cor.12:4 " Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit,..."

1Cor.12:8-11 " For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom;...to another the word....to another faith by the same Spirit...To another.... To another....But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to everyt man severally as he will."

1Cor.12:28 " And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles...."

Eph. 4:11 " And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some eveangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;..."

This is the work of the Holy Spirit in the life of the Christian. It can only occur if one has the Holy Spirit. One recieves the Holy Spirit when they are born-again and thus recieve the gift whereby they function in the Body of Christ.

Quantrill

 

[Dodo_David]

If you had taken the time to read my posts on the subject, you will notice that I don't use the NASB, the NIV, the King James, The CEV. I use the original Greek. That way I am not tempted to use the version that suits my ideas.

So, are you telling us that your personal interpretation of the Greek is flawless?

Are you saying that all of the Greek scholars who translated the Greek into modern English versions got their translations wrong?

My source is only ever the Word of God, not the Presbyterian, Baptist, Anglican, Catholic, Methodist, Congregational, Pentecostal, Charismatic or any other denomination.

Are you saying that the leaders of those named denominations don't get their theology from the Bible?

I was very clearly directed by God to study the New Testament Church without any reference to any denomination, which I did for two years. After that I picked up any book that had the word Church in its Title. Over 40 of them. In addition I wrote to Denominational leaders for comments on why they did what they did.

After all that study, I feel fairly confident that I have got a handle on things.

Are you saying that your study is the only study that is correct?

 

[marksman]

So, are you telling us that your personal interpretation of the Greek is flawless?

What I am saying is If you had taken the time to read my posts on the subject, you will notice that I don't use the NASB, the NIV, the King James, The CEV. I use the original Greek. That way I am not tempted to use the version that suits my ideas.

Are you saying that all of the Greek scholars who translated the Greek into modern English versions got their translations wrong?

What I am saying is If you had taken the time to read my posts on the subject, you will notice that I don't use the NASB, the NIV, the King James, The CEV. I use the original Greek. That way I am not tempted to use the version that suits my ideas.

Are you saying that the leaders of those named denominations don't get their theology from the Bible?

What I am saying is My source is only ever the Word of God, not the Presbyterian, Baptist, Anglican, Catholic, Methodist, Congregational, Pentecostal, Charismatic or any other denomination.

Are you saying that your study is the only study that is correct?

What I am saying is I was very clearly directed by God to study the New Testament Church without any reference to any denomination, which I did for two years. After that I picked up any book that had the word Church in its Title. Over 40 of them. In addition I wrote to Denominational leaders for comments on why they did what they did.

After all that study, I feel fairly confident that I have got a handle on things.

 

[Dodo_David]

So, are you telling us that your personal interpretation of the Greek is flawless?

What I am saying is If you had taken the time to read my posts on the subject, you will notice that I don't use the NASB, the NIV, the King James, The CEV. I use the original Greek. That way I am not tempted to use the version that suits my ideas.

Are you saying that all of the Greek scholars who translated the Greek into modern English versions got their translations wrong?

What I am saying is If you had taken the time to read my posts on the subject, you will notice that I don't use the NASB, the NIV, the King James, The CEV. I use the original Greek. That way I am not tempted to use the version that suits my ideas.

Are you saying that the leaders of those named denominations don't get their theology from the Bible?

What I am saying is My source is only ever the Word of God, not the Presbyterian, Baptist, Anglican, Catholic, Methodist, Congregational, Pentecostal, Charismatic or any other denomination.

Are you saying that your study is the only study that is correct?

What I am saying is I was very clearly directed by God to study the New Testament Church without any reference to any denomination, which I did for two years. After that I picked up any book that had the word Church in its Title. Over 40 of them. In addition I wrote to Denominational leaders for comments on why they did what they did.

After all that study, I feel fairly confident that I have got a handle on things.

It appears to me that you are begging the question.

Anyway, if you feel uncomfortable about the way that a particular congregation selects its pastors, then stay out of that congregation.
If you feel uncomfortable about a particular congregation giving salaries to its pastors, then stay out of that congregation.

 

[marksman]

Anyway, if you feel uncomfortable about the way that a particular congregation selects its pastors, then stay out of that congregation. If you feel uncomfortable about a particular congregation giving salaries to its pastors, then stay out of that congregation.

If you don't like homosexual marriage, don't have one.