North Korea

[HammerStone]

If it is ok to drop fire bombs on civilain areas of Tokyo and then spray diesel fuel on the fleeing civilians, we have no moral high ground. Either targeting civilians is an acceptable act of war or it is not. Since we affirm that is is, we are no better. And now that we are trying to re start the Cruades, our arrogance will not stand. To attack "Potential enemies" on the word of "Experts" is goint too far, we are now the evil empire. Show me where Christ calls upon us to kill potential enemies. There is no Gospel of Bombs and bullets.
Well my friend, if that's the case then what about the Israelites of the Bible? They continually went away from the Lord, committed all sorts of egregious sins, and yet he was still with them. Why? Because ultimately they believed in God as the one true God. You continually try and equate some measure of "preemptive" attack as a "Gospel of bombs and bullets" yet that is not the case.Now I don't know about you, but I don't need an "expert" to tell me that a group that has attacked Christians/Americans/Israelis/etc; even more so when they have it written in to their founding documents. To sit here and say because we attacked civilians in World War II we have no right to defend other Christian peoples from obvious attacks is an absurd argument. If that really is what you continue to advocate then you have handed both Satan and the terrorists the exact kind of victory that they are looking for. You've managed to blur the lines between good and evil; those who accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior and those who do not. I have a problem with that, as you can tell. I think it's more than safe to say the Bible does too.

 

[BernieEOD]

Who tasked us with defending the worlds Christians? And which brand of Christian? The Pope? The Eastern Orthodox? or our own home grown Liberal condom tossing baby aborting liberal Christians? We are just as much a part of Satans Kingdom as the rest of the world. Did not Satan say "All of these nations have been given unto me?" And Pre emptive strike is not self defense, it is arrogant elitism. Since we ourselves are slouching towards Gomorra, we cannot even say we are fighing for Christ, we are fighing to spread our decadence. No matter how you slice it, there are no good guys in this so called war. All fall short of God's glory, ther are none rightous, not a one.

 

[HammerStone]

So there are no saved Christians then?

 

[BernieEOD]

We are not as innocent as we would like to think. We renegged on our promise not to establish permanet bases in Saudi Arabia after the Gulf war and arrogantly proclaime "We lied, we are staying here forever!"Then, for 8 years Clinton tried to impose his godless liberalism upon the Arab nations. I cannot blame them for hating us.these so called terrorists have along way to go before they get anywhere near the number of civilians the USAF killed in just one of the cites they bombed. And CLinton killed more civilians in Blegrade than Bin Laden did in NYC.

 

[HammerStone]

these so called terrorists have along way to go before they get anywhere near the number of civilians the USAF killed in just one of the cites they bombed. And CLinton killed more civilians in Blegrade than Bin Laden did in NYC.
So we should wait around until we're sure that the numbers that Terrorists have killed equal roughly the number that our USAF has killed in bombings over half a century ago? I'm right along with you on the godless liberals, but quite frankly you're making yourself just as impotent and cowardly as them by saying "it's not fair to protect ourselves."I will say that I am not as concerned about NK as I am Iran & Syria.

 

[BernieEOD]

I did 26 years in the Navy. 13 years in the Submarine force at the hieght of the cold war and 13 years in the reserves as an EOD Diver. COntrary to what you might think, the military is just another corrupt self serving government institution that needs a boogyman to justify defense spending.I myself lost the chickenhawks attitude for war the first time we hade to dive under a real ship looking for real bombs after 9-11. You learn very quickly that war is nothing like a Rambo Movie.Killing an attacker is one thing, invading another country because some "Expert" explains the potential threat is quite another. I recoil at the neocon evangelists calling for Bush to "Not stop in Iraq but to send fourth out Christian Army to unite the entire world under the Cross of Christ"First of all, our military id far from Christian. That is not to say that there are none. Military Chaplians run the gamut from totally apostate to some of the best in the faith I have ever seen. I'm all for repelling an attack. Pre emtive war is not defense, it is arrogant imperialism. And since the divorce rate, abortion rate, teen pregnacy rate, and any other vice you can mention is the same within our Churches as they are among unbelievers, we are not spreading the Gospel with out war but our hypocrasy and our decadence.

 

[HammerStone]

I did 26 years in the Navy. 13 years in the Submarine force at the hieght of the cold war and 13 years in the reserves as an EOD Diver. COntrary to what you might think, the military is just another corrupt self serving government institution that needs a boogyman to justify defense spending.
Believe me, I've seen enough to know how all aspects of the government work. While I certainly don't have miliatary service, I've done a lot of studying and worked on the floor of my state government.I think the problem here is that you equate any sort of "preemptive" attack with some crusade of a "gospel of bullets" and there is middle ground there. I suppose there is no further point in me trying to make my case here anymore, because at this point it's clear where you stand and you're not changing and neither am I. No one here is advocating that an American army go forth a liberate the world. Some here, however, are certainly advocating the protection of their homeland and other Christians.

 

[BernieEOD]

Have faith in The Lord, not our corrupt military industrilal complex.Our so called "Wonder weapons" will not save us

 

[HammerStone]

Faith in God doesn't mean that you purposely walk out into a hurricane or walk into a field during a lightning storm and proclaim: "Protect me father." God blessed us with a certain measure of common sense and the ability to protect ourselves.

 

[BernieEOD]

There is no such thing as a "Godly superpower" . I challenge you to open your Bible and find one. At the time of Moses, Egypt was the world power and God humbled them at the foot of a wandering sheperd.The Jews under Joshua were militarily speaking, a laughing stock, this is why they were not taken seriously until they continued to win without any logical reson for them doing so. In the Book of Gideon, God tells Gideon to send most of his fighting men home lest it be said that they won on their own strenth.God has never risen up a superpower in his name, he has always topples Goliaths with Davids. The isreal of 1948 - 1972 was the underdog, there was no military reason for them to have won and yet, by the Grace Of God, they did win. When Babylon overran Isreal, The Lord made it clear that HE was in charge. He rose up Persia to take out Babylon ony to judge Persia.When Pilate boasted about his power under Roman Authority, His replied "You would have no such power unless it were given from above." Jesus never spoke much of Rome, he was not impressed. "Render unto Ceasar what is Ceasar" was said as though the Romaon coin wasn't worth much in Eternal terms. Rome would only rule as long as God tolerated Rome to rule. Once again, there is no way that the barbarians should have been able to overrun Rome, my military standards, it was not supposed to be possible and yet when God pulled the plug on Rome, he did so using the weak to defeat the strong.I don't know how old you are but already few people recall what the Cold War was really like. WE were the "David" And the Soviet Union was the "Goliath". I was in the Submarine service and it was always our 120 submarines against their 350. We were outnumbered 5 to one on the ground and 3 to 1 in the air. Now we are the "Goliath" who wants to swagger around and dictate not only othr nations foriegn policy but their domestic policy as well. I prefer to be a "Giant killer" not a "Giants Enforcer" I embrace pat Buchanan's battle cry "A Republic! Not an Empire!"

 

[HammerStone]

You can argue that there's no Biblical equivalent of the modern day concept of the superpower but I remind you that both Israel under King David and then again under Solomon was no trivial force, either. However, to sit here and argue this or that either way is splitting hairs and subject to personal interpretations more than anything. There's a lot of words and concepts not in the Bible yet we both know full on the Bible told us about them.
I don't know how old you are but already few people recall what the Cold War was really like.
Guess what my friend, your argument breaks down right there. Why? Because we were the superpower and we were the governing force behind NATO and the reconstruction effort to counter the Soviet threat. The weakened western world looked and listened to the US during this time period because we were right.Another thing I'd like to point out. You keep talking about the US dictating foreign policy but let's look at something for a moment. Where was gay marriage first passed? Europe. What areas fell into, are in, or are going into the grips of socialism and communism? Europe, Asia, South and Central America. You want to talk about our breakdown of society but guess where the influence is really coming from.

 

[BernieEOD]

The Warsaw Pact was the Goliath and Nato was the David. Like I Said, we were outnumbered 3 to 1 in the air, 5 to one on land, and 3 to one underwater.Name one verse where David or Solomon dictated world policy. Quite to the contrary, Soloman was a man of peace and while blessed and prosperous, was not a military power. Any general of his time thinking purely in military terms would have considere Isreal a pushover. David did not win because he invested heavily in the military, quite to the contrary, he was punished for trying to take a census of his fighting men. The Prophet Nathan made it clear that his victory was NOT to be of his own miltary, his own leadership, or the economic power of the nation. God and ONLY GOD provided victory.Claiming a "Devine responsibility" to police the world with the wonder weapons we built is the stuff of evil empires.

 

[BernieEOD]

As we claim that it is "Our Christian duty" to spread "Democracy" either through economics, prosytising, or if all else fails, by military force, I cahllenge you... Show me one verse in the Bible, Just one! Where political freedom, the will of the people, or deomocracy is even spoken of favorably much less advocated.- In the Garden of Eden, humanity voted to rebel against God- In the period of Judges, everbody did what was right and wrong in their own eyes.- Under Samuel, the "Will of the people" was to have a king over God- It was the desire for political freedom, the people rejected what Christ offered and delivered him to be crucified.- In spite of having absolute power, Pilate listened to "The Polls" and sent Christ to the Cross.Show one verse in the Bible where any form of government is specified. Quite to the contrary, Leaders, reguardless of what their title and power is, be it King, Govonor, Dictator, or whatever else, are called upon to rule justly and rule under God's plan.

 

[HammerStone]

The Warsaw Pact was the Goliath and Nato was the David. Like I Said, we were outnumbered 3 to 1 in the air, 5 to one on land, and 3 to one underwater.
And who was the Goliath of the NATO agreement? The US! We dictated the policy both domestic and foreign because we were in the right and God saw fit to bless America right through it all and set them up as the leader.God can bless you with material possessions to protect yourself.God blessed David with the fighting force he had.
Claiming a "Devine responsibility" to police the world with the wonder weapons we built is the stuff of evil empires.
And therein lies the problem, you don't seem to comprehend that certain military moves don't equate to "policing the word" as you want to put it.

 

[BernieEOD]

Dictating to other nations what they can and cannot possess is arrogantly policing the world. the fact that we have the worlds largest aresnal only makes us hypocrits. The Position of Goliath is not one to be proud of or to aspire to be. Any Goliath of this world is allowed to reach that position in order so that God can strike it down in order to reveal his power.And since we are currently slouching towards Gomoora, we cannot even claim to be a Christian nation. if God does not judge America, hw owes Soddom an appology.