O.T. saint salvation

[RichardBurger]

Were the people of God in the OT saved by grace, IN THE SAME WAY WE ARE TODAY, under Paul's gospel of God's grace?IMHO my answer is NO. They were under God's mercy, not under the gospel of God's grace." Read Psalm 136. The word "mercy" is used 26 times in 26 verses! This is the Biblical testimony as to how God worked in the Old Testament, through His mercy.I believe the OT saints were placed in a place called Paradise by God's mercy to either wait for the promised Christ (Jesus) or to wait for His second coming and His 1000 year reign. He overlooked their sin in the flesh and placed them in a place called Paradise.IMHO their coming out of Hades is what Jesus meant when he said the Gates of Hades will not prevail against His Church by preventing them from coming out and into the 1000 year reign of Jesus Christ during which Jesus will set up His Church.I have said what I believe, now I will show you why. Let us see what the Scriptures tell us.We see that Jesus went from the cross to be three days in the heart of the earth.Matt 12:4040 "For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.(NKJ)We see what he did while He was there.1 Pet 3:1919 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison,(NKJ) ----- (prison = Paradise = center of the earth)We must consider that when Jesus told the thief on the cross that "TODAY" you will be with me in Paradise" He meant with Him in the heart of the earth and that means that Paradise, AT THAT TIME, was a section in Hades spoken of by Jesus in Luke 16:19-26.The spirits are the O.T. spirits of the people that believed God and were accounted as righteous and placed in the bosom of Abraham until Jesus paid for their sins. Accounted does not mean that any of them had their sins washed in the blood of Christ since it had not yet been shed.Remember the story Jesus told about the rich man and the beggar named Lazarus (Luke 16:19-26) The beggar was placed in Abraham's bosom, not Jesus' bosom. However, today, we are placed in Jesus' bosom (in Christ) and "perhaps" we join those that were put there when they left Paradise.So then, the OT saints were "accounted as righteous" but not yet righteous, because their sins had not yet been paid for.We, today, under the gospel of God's grace which is in effect today, are made Children of God right now. We are made righteous right now when we place our faith in Him because the sin debt has already been paid. According to Paul, today, when a believer dies, he is instantly in the presence of Jesus.Gal 3:8-98 And the Scripture, """"foreseeing that God would"" justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham """"beforehand,""" saying, "In you all the nations shall be blessed."9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham.(NKJ)If you look at the words between the """" """" you see that the gospel of justification under grace (the gospel of God's grace) was not an accomplished fact ""AT THAT TIME"" but was told it would occur in the future. I believe it occurred after Jesus died on the cross, was raised from the dead, and God sent Paul to proclaim it.Richard

 

[Letsgofishing]

Basically heres how I look at itAfter the fall the gates of Heaven were closed to mankind. So no matter who you were you went to Sheol. The bosom of Abraham was a chamber of Sheol reserved for the righteous. It was separated from the rest of Sheol by a chasm. Those who were suffering torment in Sheol could look across the chasm at those who were in the bosom of Abraham.When Christ died he went into Sheol and retrieved the righteous from the bosom of Abraham and took them to heaven. Since Christ opened the gates of heaven there is no longer a bosom of Abraham...or you can say the the bosom of Abraham now refers to Heaven.and while I agree with you that The OT saints were saved because of Gods mercy, I would say that that is true for all of us. It is because God was merciful that Jesus died for all of us, The Old Testament Saints and the believers of today.So all of us have been saved by Gods Grace, and God has saved us by his grace because he has taken mercy on us. The same is true for the Old Testament Saints.Your brother in christRyan Fitz

 

[Christina]

I might add When Christ died for our sins he died all sin past and present the sacrafice of animals just covered the sin until the time when Jesus Christ would take them all upon himself

 

[AusDisciple]

This is a fantastic thread with some great information and is very relevant to what God is teaching me at present. He has appointed me a task and this information is key to fulfilling that task.I have been praying for the guidance of the Holy Spirit and for the patience to move forward with this as God reveals more to me through scripture, His Holy Spirit and information I gather from others that supports what God shows me.May we all continue to do God's will for us and glorify Him in all that we do and may we seek His forgiveness and the forgiveness of others we sin against as we forgive them.

 

[RichardBurger]

(Letsgofishing;67765)
Basically heres how I look at itAfter the fall the gates of Heaven were closed to mankind. So no matter who you were you went to Sheol. The bosom of Abraham was a chamber of Sheol reserved for the righteous. It was separated from the rest of Sheol by a chasm. Those who were suffering torment in Sheol could look across the chasm at those who were in the bosom of Abraham.When Christ died he went into Sheol and retrieved the righteous from the bosom of Abraham and took them to heaven. Since Christ opened the gates of heaven there is no longer a bosom of Abraham...or you can say the the bosom of Abraham now refers to Heaven.and while I agree with you that The OT saints were saved because of Gods mercy, I would say that that is true for all of us. It is because God was merciful that Jesus died for all of us, The Old Testament Saints and the believers of today.So all of us have been saved by Gods Grace, and God has saved us by his grace because he has taken mercy on us. The same is true for the Old Testament Saints.Your brother in christRyan Fitz
I disagree with you on one point. His mercy was rejected by the Jews and then God brought about His hidden gospel. Today we are not saved by God's mercy for us. We are saved because of what Jesus did on the cross alone. We are saved because God will not let what Jesus did on the cross be un-fruitful. God has given Jesus many brothers, not by their will but by the will of God.Richard

 

[setfree]

I would say that they were saved by faith through obedience. They believed He would come...looked to the cross. We believed He did come...look back to the cross and resurrection. By their faith they obeyed the laws, today by faith we also obey Him, not to obtain salvation but because we have been saved...the difference is today everyone that believes has the power of the Holy Spirit to live.Without the cross and resurrection ...Old or New Testament saints... would be without hope.

 

[logabe]

(RichardBurger;67782)
I disagree with you on one point. His mercy was rejected by the Jews and then God brought about His hidden gospel. Today we are not saved by God's mercy for us. We are saved because of what Jesus did on the cross alone. We are saved because God will not let what Jesus did on the cross be un-fruitful. God has given Jesus many brothers, not by their will but by the will of God.Richard
Richard, explain this scripture to me.Rom. 11:32 says,16 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.Also this one.Titus 3:5 says,5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;Logabe

 

[dan p]

QUOTE (logabe @ Jan 15 2009, 09:50 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=67835
Richard, explain this scripture to me.Rom. 11:32 says,16 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.Also this one.Titus 3:5 says,5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;Logabe
1) Hi logabe , Richard has not replied to you , but I will .2) The book of Rom 11 , is talking about 2 peoples , Jews and Gentiles .3) The question to you is , is this chapter future or for now ?4) v30 , is talking about Gentiles , and v32 is telling about the Jewish disobedience that Christ will have mercy to Jews and Gentiles .5) Rom 1 , tells of the setting aside of the Gentiles .6) Rom 11 , tells of the setting aside of the Jewish Nation .7) Now Paul can say that there is no difference between Jew or Gentile, which could not be preached by the 12 Apostles .8 ) What does Titus 3:5 means ; Eph 5:26 explains it what it means .