Old Testament Morality

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Apr 25, 2023
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In 2022 my wife and I fulfilled a lifelong dream by traveling to France. While there we saw a number of beautiful cathedrals, several of the High Gothic period. One such cathedral in the city of Bourges has a massive statue of the Virgin Mary with the baby Jesus inside the church. There were lovely tapestries with portraits of Christian martyrs hanging about the nave. And of course gorgeous stained glass windows adorned every exterior wall.

Those are all graven images. The Second Commandment says:

“You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above,or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth…”
(Exodus 20:4, RSV)

Christians apparently don’t think the Second Commandment applies to them. Both modern day Jews and Muslims devoutly follow this Commandment. If you go to a Jewish Temple or a Muslim Mosque you will see lovely decorations throughout-- but they are abstract and do not portray any images of persons or things either in heaven or on earth. But present day Christians flagrantly disobey the Second Commandment by decorating their places of worship with all manner of such images. Christian art is beautifully executed and is a wonderful glory of religious devotion. But it is also a blatant violation of the Second Commandment.

Do Christians actually believe in the morality of the Old Testament? Let’s consider the Fifth Commandment:

“Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long in the land which the LORD your God gives you.”
(Exodus 20:12, RSV)

As a general principle, certainly that is good advice. But what if your father and mother are criminals? Should you still honor them? What if a young woman’s father is a sexual predator who has raped his own daughter repeatedly-- should the daughter honor him? Or should she instead leave home and seek shelter somewhere where she isn’t likely to be raped? There is no nuance in the Commandment as stated above, so we can’t really determine what the proper course of action should be in such cases, based on the literal wording in the Bible. Here’s what the Bible says about the punishment that should apply to disrespectful children:

"Whoever strikes his father or his mother shall be put to death.”
(Exodus 21:15, RSV)

“Whoever curses his father or his mother shall be put to death.”
(Exodus 21:17, RSV)

So it would appear that any form of resistance to the desires of an evil parent is to be punished by death. That doesn’t seem to allow much room for cases of immoral or predatory parents.

The Sixth Commandment says:
"You shall not kill.”
(Exodus 20:13, RSV)

That is also a good rule of thumb in general, but there are exceptions-- such as killing in self defense, or accidental killing, or killing in the line of duty. The Commandment makes no specific mention of those cases. But the Bible provides additional nuance in the following:
“This is the provision for the manslayer, who by fleeing there may save his life. If any one kills his neighbor unintentionally without having been at enmity with him in time past-- as when a man goes into the forest with his neighbor to cut wood, and his hand swings the axe to cut down a tree, and the head slips from the handle and strikes his neighbor so that he dies-- he may flee to one of these cities and save his life; lest the avenger of blood in hot anger pursue the manslayer and overtake him, because the way is long, and wound him mortally, though the man did not deserve to die, since he was not at enmity with his neighbor in time past.”
(Deuteronomy 19:4 - 6, RSV)

The method proposed is to provide for cities of refuge to which a manslayer may flee. Once there the manslayer may appeal to the city elders for asylum. The example given is of accidental killing. There are no specific examples of killing in self defense or of killing in the line of duty, so it is difficult to know how such cases should be handled, based on the actual wording of the Bible.

The above passage from Deuteronomy is a continuation of a long narration by Moses of the laws he received directly from God-- a narration that begins in Deuteronomy 5. So the provision for the manslayer is simply another one of the many laws that God gave directly to Moses at Mount Sinai.

In our present day legal system we don’t use cities of refuge. We have law enforcement agencies that are empowered to arrest suspects. We have hearings at which suspects are allowed to enter a plea of either innocent or guilty. We have a bail system that allows suspects to post bond to await trail outside of jail. And we have trials in a court of law in which the defendant is permitted to be represented by counsel. There is nothing in the Old Testament about any of that. Do present day Christians (or Jews or Muslims) think we should dispense with our modern system and implement cities of refuge as required by the Bible? I have never heard any religious leader make such a request.

Leviticus Chapter Four describes what are known as “Sin Offerings.” There are four types of such offerings that are based on the person’s position in Hebrew society. But generally the person applying for forgiveness of a sin must provide a perfect animal of a type that depends on the person’s station in society to the priests of the Hebrew Temple. The priests, if they accept the animal, will then perform a ritual sacrifice at the Temple that is very specific-- right down to the numbers of drops of the animal’s blood that the priests must sprinkle on the horns of the altar. If all goes well, then the person’s sin will be forgiven.

The first words of Leviticus Chapter Four are:

And the LORD said to Moses…
(Leviticus 4:1, RSV)

That is, the rules concerning Sin Offerings were given to Moses directly by God. That could have happened at only one time and one place-- at Mount Sinai, when God gave the entire system of Hebrew laws to Moses. Does anyone think that we should revive this method of forgiving sins? I have never heard any Christian leader call for such a thing.

Exodus 21 states the laws given by God concerning slavery. Those laws recognize slavery as a valid institution. So clearly the God of the Bible approves of slavery. Does that mean we make must slavery legal again?

The laws of the Old Testament were supposedly given to Moses by God. If that were true, then certainly all human societies would have an obligation to obey them. But there are many aspects of that ancient code that are superficial, incomplete, or just plain out of step with present day realities. No one believes that slavery is a necessary institution for a modern society. No one believes that cities of refuge, or sin offerings as described in the Old Testament should be revived. No one believes that our present system of law enforcement, bail bonds, and a human operated judicial system should be disbanded in favor of judgment by city elders. And no one should begrudge Christians for having commissioned some of the most beautiful works of art anywhere, regardless of whether they violate the Second Commandment. It is time to regard the morality of the Old Testament as just one step in humanity’s long struggle for justice. It is not a final end point, it is not perfect, and it decidedly not divine.

I will take up the morality of the New Testament in a future posting.
 

Waiting on him

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In 2022 my wife and I fulfilled a lifelong dream by traveling to France. While there we saw a number of beautiful cathedrals, several of the High Gothic period. One such cathedral in the city of Bourges has a massive statue of the Virgin Mary with the baby Jesus inside the church. There were lovely tapestries with portraits of Christian martyrs hanging about the nave. And of course gorgeous stained glass windows adorned every exterior wall.

Those are all graven images. The Second Commandment says:



Christians apparently don’t think the Second Commandment applies to them. Both modern day Jews and Muslims devoutly follow this Commandment. If you go to a Jewish Temple or a Muslim Mosque you will see lovely decorations throughout-- but they are abstract and do not portray any images of persons or things either in heaven or on earth. But present day Christians flagrantly disobey the Second Commandment by decorating their places of worship with all manner of such images. Christian art is beautifully executed and is a wonderful glory of religious devotion. But it is also a blatant violation of the Second Commandment.

Do Christians actually believe in the morality of the Old Testament? Let’s consider the Fifth Commandment:



As a general principle, certainly that is good advice. But what if your father and mother are criminals? Should you still honor them? What if a young woman’s father is a sexual predator who has raped his own daughter repeatedly-- should the daughter honor him? Or should she instead leave home and seek shelter somewhere where she isn’t likely to be raped? There is no nuance in the Commandment as stated above, so we can’t really determine what the proper course of action should be in such cases, based on the literal wording in the Bible. Here’s what the Bible says about the punishment that should apply to disrespectful children:





So it would appear that any form of resistance to the desires of an evil parent is to be punished by death. That doesn’t seem to allow much room for cases of immoral or predatory parents.

The Sixth Commandment says:


That is also a good rule of thumb in general, but there are exceptions-- such as killing in self defense, or accidental killing, or killing in the line of duty. The Commandment makes no specific mention of those cases. But the Bible provides additional nuance in the following:


The method proposed is to provide for cities of refuge to which a manslayer may flee. Once there the manslayer may appeal to the city elders for asylum. The example given is of accidental killing. There are no specific examples of killing in self defense or of killing in the line of duty, so it is difficult to know how such cases should be handled, based on the actual wording of the Bible.

The above passage from Deuteronomy is a continuation of a long narration by Moses of the laws he received directly from God-- a narration that begins in Deuteronomy 5. So the provision for the manslayer is simply another one of the many laws that God gave directly to Moses at Mount Sinai.

In our present day legal system we don’t use cities of refuge. We have law enforcement agencies that are empowered to arrest suspects. We have hearings at which suspects are allowed to enter a plea of either innocent or guilty. We have a bail system that allows suspects to post bond to await trail outside of jail. And we have trials in a court of law in which the defendant is permitted to be represented by counsel. There is nothing in the Old Testament about any of that. Do present day Christians (or Jews or Muslims) think we should dispense with our modern system and implement cities of refuge as required by the Bible? I have never heard any religious leader make such a request.

Leviticus Chapter Four describes what are known as “Sin Offerings.” There are four types of such offerings that are based on the person’s position in Hebrew society. But generally the person applying for forgiveness of a sin must provide a perfect animal of a type that depends on the person’s station in society to the priests of the Hebrew Temple. The priests, if they accept the animal, will then perform a ritual sacrifice at the Temple that is very specific-- right down to the numbers of drops of the animal’s blood that the priests must sprinkle on the horns of the altar. If all goes well, then the person’s sin will be forgiven.

The first words of Leviticus Chapter Four are:



That is, the rules concerning Sin Offerings were given to Moses directly by God. That could have happened at only one time and one place-- at Mount Sinai, when God gave the entire system of Hebrew laws to Moses. Does anyone think that we should revive this method of forgiving sins? I have never heard any Christian leader call for such a thing.

Exodus 21 states the laws given by God concerning slavery. Those laws recognize slavery as a valid institution. So clearly the God of the Bible approves of slavery. Does that mean we make must slavery legal again?

The laws of the Old Testament were supposedly given to Moses by God. If that were true, then certainly all human societies would have an obligation to obey them. But there are many aspects of that ancient code that are superficial, incomplete, or just plain out of step with present day realities. No one believes that slavery is a necessary institution for a modern society. No one believes that cities of refuge, or sin offerings as described in the Old Testament should be revived. No one believes that our present system of law enforcement, bail bonds, and a human operated judicial system should be disbanded in favor of judgment by city elders. And no one should begrudge Christians for having commissioned some of the most beautiful works of art anywhere, regardless of whether they violate the Second Commandment. It is time to regard the morality of the Old Testament as just one step in humanity’s long struggle for justice. It is not a final end point, it is not perfect, and it decidedly not divine.

I will take up the morality of the New Testament in a future posting.
For Gods sake man, the very stones he was holding are graven images.

That’s what Egyptians did?
 

Waiting on him

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This is what the light of the world was trying to show them, God is spirit and love.. He doesn’t order genocide. This whole situation in the Old Testament was a geographical conquest. Fueled by the darkened hearts of evil and corrupt men. You can witness it in our distant past also, as well as our near future. It’s always been this way. Rather it be Catholic, Americans, Jews. It’s always in the name of God?
 

BarneyFife

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No belief system should be judged by its abuse. Plato or Socrates said that, I think. Oh, well.
 

Waiting on him

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If you're referring to the tablets that contained the Ten Commandments, those were engraved with words, not images. The Second Commandment explicitly refers to images.
What if the stones themselves are the image?


2 Corinthians 3:3 KJVS
[3] Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.
I hope you see, I believe there is a God, but I don’t believe He wrote on stone tablets like an Egyptian?
 

quietthinker

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In 2022 my wife and I fulfilled a lifelong dream by traveling to France. While there we saw a number of beautiful cathedrals, several of the High Gothic period. One such cathedral in the city of Bourges has a massive statue of the Virgin Mary with the baby Jesus inside the church. There were lovely tapestries with portraits of Christian martyrs hanging about the nave. And of course gorgeous stained glass windows adorned every exterior wall.

Those are all graven images. The Second Commandment says:



Christians apparently don’t think the Second Commandment applies to them. Both modern day Jews and Muslims devoutly follow this Commandment. If you go to a Jewish Temple or a Muslim Mosque you will see lovely decorations throughout-- but they are abstract and do not portray any images of persons or things either in heaven or on earth. But present day Christians flagrantly disobey the Second Commandment by decorating their places of worship with all manner of such images. Christian art is beautifully executed and is a wonderful glory of religious devotion. But it is also a blatant violation of the Second Commandment.

Do Christians actually believe in the morality of the Old Testament? Let’s consider the Fifth Commandment:



As a general principle, certainly that is good advice. But what if your father and mother are criminals? Should you still honor them? What if a young woman’s father is a sexual predator who has raped his own daughter repeatedly-- should the daughter honor him? Or should she instead leave home and seek shelter somewhere where she isn’t likely to be raped? There is no nuance in the Commandment as stated above, so we can’t really determine what the proper course of action should be in such cases, based on the literal wording in the Bible. Here’s what the Bible says about the punishment that should apply to disrespectful children:





So it would appear that any form of resistance to the desires of an evil parent is to be punished by death. That doesn’t seem to allow much room for cases of immoral or predatory parents.

The Sixth Commandment says:


That is also a good rule of thumb in general, but there are exceptions-- such as killing in self defense, or accidental killing, or killing in the line of duty. The Commandment makes no specific mention of those cases. But the Bible provides additional nuance in the following:


The method proposed is to provide for cities of refuge to which a manslayer may flee. Once there the manslayer may appeal to the city elders for asylum. The example given is of accidental killing. There are no specific examples of killing in self defense or of killing in the line of duty, so it is difficult to know how such cases should be handled, based on the actual wording of the Bible.

The above passage from Deuteronomy is a continuation of a long narration by Moses of the laws he received directly from God-- a narration that begins in Deuteronomy 5. So the provision for the manslayer is simply another one of the many laws that God gave directly to Moses at Mount Sinai.

In our present day legal system we don’t use cities of refuge. We have law enforcement agencies that are empowered to arrest suspects. We have hearings at which suspects are allowed to enter a plea of either innocent or guilty. We have a bail system that allows suspects to post bond to await trail outside of jail. And we have trials in a court of law in which the defendant is permitted to be represented by counsel. There is nothing in the Old Testament about any of that. Do present day Christians (or Jews or Muslims) think we should dispense with our modern system and implement cities of refuge as required by the Bible? I have never heard any religious leader make such a request.

Leviticus Chapter Four describes what are known as “Sin Offerings.” There are four types of such offerings that are based on the person’s position in Hebrew society. But generally the person applying for forgiveness of a sin must provide a perfect animal of a type that depends on the person’s station in society to the priests of the Hebrew Temple. The priests, if they accept the animal, will then perform a ritual sacrifice at the Temple that is very specific-- right down to the numbers of drops of the animal’s blood that the priests must sprinkle on the horns of the altar. If all goes well, then the person’s sin will be forgiven.

The first words of Leviticus Chapter Four are:



That is, the rules concerning Sin Offerings were given to Moses directly by God. That could have happened at only one time and one place-- at Mount Sinai, when God gave the entire system of Hebrew laws to Moses. Does anyone think that we should revive this method of forgiving sins? I have never heard any Christian leader call for such a thing.

Exodus 21 states the laws given by God concerning slavery. Those laws recognize slavery as a valid institution. So clearly the God of the Bible approves of slavery. Does that mean we make must slavery legal again?

The laws of the Old Testament were supposedly given to Moses by God. If that were true, then certainly all human societies would have an obligation to obey them. But there are many aspects of that ancient code that are superficial, incomplete, or just plain out of step with present day realities. No one believes that slavery is a necessary institution for a modern society. No one believes that cities of refuge, or sin offerings as described in the Old Testament should be revived. No one believes that our present system of law enforcement, bail bonds, and a human operated judicial system should be disbanded in favor of judgment by city elders. And no one should begrudge Christians for having commissioned some of the most beautiful works of art anywhere, regardless of whether they violate the Second Commandment. It is time to regard the morality of the Old Testament as just one step in humanity’s long struggle for justice. It is not a final end point, it is not perfect, and it decidedly not divine.

I will take up the morality of the New Testament in a future posting.
You make valid points. The way I understand it is that God was regarded by Moses as an uber Pharaoh. The people had come out of 400yrs of slavery. The only rule they knew and logic they were familiar with was, do what the boss says or die. The principle of forgiveness was just not on the horizon in their psyche.
Once they had the shackles and threats of Pharaoh thrown off it was basically every man for himself (maybe survival of the fittest?) ...they were on the verge of anarchy and containment of some sort was needed....containment that the people understood?
 
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What if the stones themselves are the image?


2 Corinthians 3:3 KJVS
[3] Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.
I hope you see, I believe there is a God, but I don’t believe He wrote on stone tablets like an Egyptian?

The Second Commandment says:

"You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; ..."​
(Exodus 20:4, RSV)​

The example I gave of a statue of Mary inside a church in the city of Bourges is just such an image. So are the stained glass windows of that exquisite High Gothic cathedral. So by my reading they are a clear violation of the Second Commandment.

How do you interpret that commandment?
 

Waiting on him

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The Second Commandment says:



The example I gave of a statue of Mary inside a church in the city of Bourges is just such an image. So are the stained glass windows of that exquisite High Gothic cathedral. So by my reading they are a clear violation of the Second Commandment.

How do you interpret that commandment?
The way I interpreted is the stones themselves were engraved images you can travel to Egypt today and see an innumerable host of engravings… I don’t believe in an archaic god that engraves stone tablets. The scripture I shared in my opinion says that God doesn’t write on stones. So you have to decide what you choose to believe.


Why do you believe that Israel killed the prophets of God including Jesus and his apostles?

Hebrews 11:34-37 KJVS
[34] Quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, waxed valiant in fight, turned to flight the armies of the aliens. [35] Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection: [36] And others had trial of cruel mockings and scourgings, yea, moreover of bonds and imprisonment: [37] They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented;
 

Waiting on him

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You make valid points. The way I understand it is that God was regarded by Moses as an uber Pharaoh. The people had come out of 400yrs of slavery. The only rule they knew and logic they were familiar with was, do what the boss says or die. The principle of forgiveness was just not on the horizon in their psyche.
Once they had the shackles and threats of Pharaoh thrown off it was basically every man for himself (maybe survival of the fittest?) ...they were on the verge of anarchy and containment of some sort was needed....containment that the people understood?
I assure you that you can travel to Egypt and see laws of that region carved engraved in stone.
 
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I don’t believe in an archaic god that engraves stone tablets. The scripture I shared in my opinion says that God doesn’t write on stones.
You've totally lost me. Here's what the Bible says about the stone tablets:

And he gave to Moses, when he had made an end of speaking with him upon Mount Sinai, the two tables of the testimony, tables of stone, written with the finger of God.
(Exodus 31:18, RSV)

So yes the God of the Bible-- Yahweh-- did indeed write in stone with his finger. I have no idea where you came up with the interpretation that your God doesn't write on stones.
 

Titus

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You've totally lost me. Here's what the Bible says about the stone tablets:



So yes the God of the Bible-- Yahweh-- did indeed write in stone with his finger. I have no idea where you came up with the interpretation that your God doesn't write on stones.
Where does your idea of morality come from?