Recently read Aristotle's Children by Richard E. Rubenstein for a college class and was intrigued by some of the theological and philosophical questions posed and the different theoretical answers to the questions. An example:"God cannot be simultaneously good and omnipotent. If he created evil or permits it to exist, he cannot be good. But if he is good, he cannot be omnipotent, for if he were, he would not have saddled us with sin and suffering."A heretical statement but still intellectually stimulating in its implications. If God is omnipotent why does he allow pain and strife to devastate humanity? Some argue that its part of his plan or that its his will but that leads to the question of why an eternal, infallible Creator outside of time and space needs a "plan", or, if everything coincides with his will what kind of God would will genocide and plagues?Just putting these questions out there for discussion. Comments welcome.
Omnipotence
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QUOTE (good times @ May 8 2009, 01:04 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=73372
Recently read Aristotle's Children by Richard E. Rubenstein for a college class and was intrigued by some of the theological and philosophical questions posed and the different theoretical answers to the questions. An example:"God cannot be simultaneously good and omnipotent. If he created evil or permits it to exist, he cannot be good. But if he is good, he cannot be omnipotent, for if he were, he would not have saddled us with sin and suffering."A heretical statement but still intellectually stimulating in its implications. If God is omnipotent why does he allow pain and strife to devastate humanity? Some argue that its part of his plan or that its his will but that leads to the question of why an eternal, infallible Creator outside of time and space needs a "plan", or, if everything coincides with his will what kind of God would will genocide and plagues?Just putting these questions out there for discussion. Comments welcome.
Well, it came to me to do a study of God according to his own words and not the worlds, or it's theologians: Isaiah 29:6 Suddenly, in an instant, the Lord Almighty will come with thunder and earthquake and great noise, with windstorm and tempest and FLAMES OF A DEVOURING FIRE> Isaiah 26:21 See, the Lord is coming out of his dwelling to punish the people of the earth for their sins. Isaiah 27:12 In that day the Lord will thresh from the flowing Euphrates to the Wadi of Egypt, and you, O Israelites, will be gathered up one by one. 13.) In that day a great TRUMPET will sound. Those who are perishing in Assyria and those who were exiled in Egypt will come and worship the Lord on the holly mountain in Jerusalem. There is this Day of God's wrath coming upon the earth, by him, to destroy those who destroy the earth and his people. When the Lord is finished with his fire that devours the earth, a cleansing of the people and their sins, which consist of the slaying of the Leviathan the gliding serpent which God will come and slay.We are created by a fierce Lord, who is the most greatest power of all powers created, for he created all powers. He writes about his powers that will be exhibited at his come to destroy many of the inhabitants of the earth, and this involves the judgment coming upon the entire earth. He is one I fear greatly. And I love passionately. Vickie
Recently read Aristotle's Children by Richard E. Rubenstein for a college class and was intrigued by some of the theological and philosophical questions posed and the different theoretical answers to the questions. An example:"God cannot be simultaneously good and omnipotent. If he created evil or permits it to exist, he cannot be good. But if he is good, he cannot be omnipotent, for if he were, he would not have saddled us with sin and suffering."A heretical statement but still intellectually stimulating in its implications. If God is omnipotent why does he allow pain and strife to devastate humanity? Some argue that its part of his plan or that its his will but that leads to the question of why an eternal, infallible Creator outside of time and space needs a "plan", or, if everything coincides with his will what kind of God would will genocide and plagues?Just putting these questions out there for discussion. Comments welcome.
Well, it came to me to do a study of God according to his own words and not the worlds, or it's theologians: Isaiah 29:6 Suddenly, in an instant, the Lord Almighty will come with thunder and earthquake and great noise, with windstorm and tempest and FLAMES OF A DEVOURING FIRE> Isaiah 26:21 See, the Lord is coming out of his dwelling to punish the people of the earth for their sins. Isaiah 27:12 In that day the Lord will thresh from the flowing Euphrates to the Wadi of Egypt, and you, O Israelites, will be gathered up one by one. 13.) In that day a great TRUMPET will sound. Those who are perishing in Assyria and those who were exiled in Egypt will come and worship the Lord on the holly mountain in Jerusalem. There is this Day of God's wrath coming upon the earth, by him, to destroy those who destroy the earth and his people. When the Lord is finished with his fire that devours the earth, a cleansing of the people and their sins, which consist of the slaying of the Leviathan the gliding serpent which God will come and slay.We are created by a fierce Lord, who is the most greatest power of all powers created, for he created all powers. He writes about his powers that will be exhibited at his come to destroy many of the inhabitants of the earth, and this involves the judgment coming upon the entire earth. He is one I fear greatly. And I love passionately. Vickie
Stumpmaster
Well-Known Member
QUOTE (good times @ May 8 2009, 01:04 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=73372
Recently read Aristotle's Children by Richard E. Rubenstein for a college class and was intrigued by some of the theological and philosophical questions posed and the different theoretical answers to the questions. An example:"God cannot be simultaneously good and omnipotent. If he created evil or permits it to exist, he cannot be good. But if he is good, he cannot be omnipotent, for if he were, he would not have saddled us with sin and suffering."A heretical statement but still intellectually stimulating in its implications. If God is omnipotent why does he allow pain and strife to devastate humanity? Some argue that its part of his plan or that its his will but that leads to the question of why an eternal, infallible Creator outside of time and space needs a "plan", or, if everything coincides with his will what kind of God would will genocide and plagues?Just putting these questions out there for discussion. Comments welcome.
I am familiar with the philosophical argument in question, Good Times.For my part the Bible is abundantly clear in its explanation of God's unfolding plan, which shows that His omnipotence involves patience and wisdom as to when and how He exercises His power, in themselves qualities of omnipotence which Satan continually trips up on.Revelation 21:4(4) "And God will wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things have passed away."By way of contrast to the state of affairs in this current fallen creation with all its worries and woes, according to the Bible, in heaven God's Will is unchallenged by redeemed and resurrected believers who, in perfect worshipful purity, experience God's blessings which come free of the trials and tribulations of the curse which test our faith. These are necessarily a result of Adam and Eve's giving in to temptation and choosing to be disobedient to God's Will.Revelation 22:1-5(1) And he showed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.(2) In the midst of the street of it, and on each side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bore twelve kinds of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.(3) And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him
4) And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.(5) And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.The Jamieson, Faussett, Brown Commentary has this:Revelation 22:2 How striking it is that, as in the beginning we found Adam and Eve, his bride, in innocence in Paradise, then tempted by the serpent, and driven from the tree of life, and from the pleasant waters of Eden, yet not without a promise of a Redeemer who should crush the serpent; so at the close, the old serpent cast out for ever by the second Adam, the Lord from heaven, who appears with His Bride, the Church, in a better Paradise, and amidst better waters (Rev_22:1): the tree of life also is there with all its healing properties, not guarded with a flaming sword, but open to all who overcome (Rev_2:7), and there is no more curse.
Recently read Aristotle's Children by Richard E. Rubenstein for a college class and was intrigued by some of the theological and philosophical questions posed and the different theoretical answers to the questions. An example:"God cannot be simultaneously good and omnipotent. If he created evil or permits it to exist, he cannot be good. But if he is good, he cannot be omnipotent, for if he were, he would not have saddled us with sin and suffering."A heretical statement but still intellectually stimulating in its implications. If God is omnipotent why does he allow pain and strife to devastate humanity? Some argue that its part of his plan or that its his will but that leads to the question of why an eternal, infallible Creator outside of time and space needs a "plan", or, if everything coincides with his will what kind of God would will genocide and plagues?Just putting these questions out there for discussion. Comments welcome.
I am familiar with the philosophical argument in question, Good Times.For my part the Bible is abundantly clear in its explanation of God's unfolding plan, which shows that His omnipotence involves patience and wisdom as to when and how He exercises His power, in themselves qualities of omnipotence which Satan continually trips up on.Revelation 21:4(4) "And God will wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things have passed away."By way of contrast to the state of affairs in this current fallen creation with all its worries and woes, according to the Bible, in heaven God's Will is unchallenged by redeemed and resurrected believers who, in perfect worshipful purity, experience God's blessings which come free of the trials and tribulations of the curse which test our faith. These are necessarily a result of Adam and Eve's giving in to temptation and choosing to be disobedient to God's Will.Revelation 22:1-5(1) And he showed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.(2) In the midst of the street of it, and on each side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bore twelve kinds of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.(3) And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him
4) And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.(5) And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.The Jamieson, Faussett, Brown Commentary has this:Revelation 22:2 How striking it is that, as in the beginning we found Adam and Eve, his bride, in innocence in Paradise, then tempted by the serpent, and driven from the tree of life, and from the pleasant waters of Eden, yet not without a promise of a Redeemer who should crush the serpent; so at the close, the old serpent cast out for ever by the second Adam, the Lord from heaven, who appears with His Bride, the Church, in a better Paradise, and amidst better waters (Rev_22:1): the tree of life also is there with all its healing properties, not guarded with a flaming sword, but open to all who overcome (Rev_2:7), and there is no more curse. QUOTE (good times @ May 8 2009, 01:04 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=73372
Recently read Aristotle's Children by Richard E. Rubenstein for a college class and was intrigued by some of the theological and philosophical questions posed and the different theoretical answers to the questions. An example:"God cannot be simultaneously good and omnipotent. If he created evil or permits it to exist, he cannot be good. But if he is good, he cannot be omnipotent, for if he were, he would not have saddled us with sin and suffering."A heretical statement but still intellectually stimulating in its implications. If God is omnipotent why does he allow pain and strife to devastate humanity? Some argue that its part of his plan or that its his will but that leads to the question of why an eternal, infallible Creator outside of time and space needs a "plan", or, if everything coincides with his will what kind of God would will genocide and plagues?Just putting these questions out there for discussion. Comments welcome.
You have asked a question for which there is no answer. We humans can be sure there are trillions of things about God we do not know.The bible says that if everything Jesus did was recorded , the whole world would not hold all the books.It is hard enough for us to even grasp the things told in the bible. We should not go looking for more.God only gives us a tiny glimpse of "himself" . Maybe we will understand it all in the afterlife. Right now we are not capable. The information has not been given to us.The philosopher and the higher learning professors spend much of their lives bringing up these questions. If they only knew Jesus and spent their lives learning what can be known they would be better off. However they prefer to ask endless questions which they know we cannot answer. It just derails us , which may very well be the intention anyway. Think about it.Best wishesMartin W.
Recently read Aristotle's Children by Richard E. Rubenstein for a college class and was intrigued by some of the theological and philosophical questions posed and the different theoretical answers to the questions. An example:"God cannot be simultaneously good and omnipotent. If he created evil or permits it to exist, he cannot be good. But if he is good, he cannot be omnipotent, for if he were, he would not have saddled us with sin and suffering."A heretical statement but still intellectually stimulating in its implications. If God is omnipotent why does he allow pain and strife to devastate humanity? Some argue that its part of his plan or that its his will but that leads to the question of why an eternal, infallible Creator outside of time and space needs a "plan", or, if everything coincides with his will what kind of God would will genocide and plagues?Just putting these questions out there for discussion. Comments welcome.
You have asked a question for which there is no answer. We humans can be sure there are trillions of things about God we do not know.The bible says that if everything Jesus did was recorded , the whole world would not hold all the books.It is hard enough for us to even grasp the things told in the bible. We should not go looking for more.God only gives us a tiny glimpse of "himself" . Maybe we will understand it all in the afterlife. Right now we are not capable. The information has not been given to us.The philosopher and the higher learning professors spend much of their lives bringing up these questions. If they only knew Jesus and spent their lives learning what can be known they would be better off. However they prefer to ask endless questions which they know we cannot answer. It just derails us , which may very well be the intention anyway. Think about it.Best wishesMartin W.
It is not hard to answer the question. It is God's will. He permits evil to exist because he permits us to exist. Permitting us to exist is good (for us). If we didn't exist neither would evil.As far as saddling us with sin and suffering we did that to ourselves. See the book of Genesis. One further point with this question. To assume to begin to know the nature of God is pure arrogance. No one can know why God gave us free will. But He did. Should we assume that God is not omnipotent or good because of it? I think assuming is silly as much as it is dangerous.
QUOTE (Stumpmaster @ May 9 2009, 12:45 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=73394
For my part the Bible is abundantly clear in its explanation of God's unfolding plan, which shows that His omnipotence involves patience and wisdom as to when and how He exercises His power, in themselves qualities of omnipotence which Satan continually trips up on.[/color]By way of contrast to the state of affairs in this current fallen creation with all its worries and woes, according to the Bible, in heaven God's Will is unchallenged by redeemed and resurrected believers who, in perfect worshipful purity, experience God's blessings which come free of the trials and tribulations of the curse which test our faith. These are necessarily a result of Adam and Eve's giving in to temptation and choosing to be disobedient to God's Will.The Jamieson, Faussett, Brown Commentary has this:Revelation 22:2 How striking it is that, as in the beginning we found Adam and Eve, his bride, in innocence in Paradise, then tempted by the serpent, and driven from the tree of life, and from the pleasant waters of Eden, yet not without a promise of a Redeemer who should crush the serpent; so at the close, the old serpent cast out for ever by the second Adam, the Lord from heaven, who appears with His Bride, the Church, in a better Paradise, and amidst better waters (Rev_22:1): the tree of life also is there with all its healing properties, not guarded with a flaming sword, but open to all who overcome (Rev_2:7), and there is no more curse.
Omnipotence is all knowing, all powerful, all seeing, all everything. To say that an omnipotent God, who created everything in the universe from nothing as he saw fit, gave us "free will" to choose for ourselves is contradictory to the definition of omnipotence which makes God all knowing. If he already knows our choice and our lives are just running parallel to his will, doesn't that cancel out free will? The bible makes it clear that he knows what is to come in revelation so we can assume that he knows the future being omnipotent and all. QUOTE (Martin W. @ May 9 2009, 05:13 AM) [url="index.php?act=findpost&pid=73404][/url]
You have asked a question for which there is no answer. We humans can be sure there are trillions of things about God we do not know.The bible says that if everything Jesus did was recorded , the whole world would not hold all the books.It is hard enough for us to even grasp the things told in the bible. We should not go looking for more.God only gives us a tiny glimpse of "himself" . Maybe we will understand it all in the afterlife. Right now we are not capable. The information has not been given to us.The philosopher and the higher learning professors spend much of their lives bringing up these questions. If they only knew Jesus and spent their lives learning what can be known they would be better off. However they prefer to ask endless questions which they know we cannot answer. It just derails us , which may very well be the intention anyway.
These questions are not just posed by pagan philosophers who wish to "derail us." Great Christian minds who lived in and around the time where Papal authority was supreme and the Orthodox Catholic Church ran the government and education in universities such as Thomas Aquinas, Duns Scot, Peter Abelard, Bernard of Clairvaux, and others who were devout God fearing Christians that asked the same questions, with surprisingly genius possible answers, not to question the doctrines of Christianity or to deny the existence of God but to better comprehend their beliefs so as not to follow blindly the will of the papacy. Even the above mentioned question of omnipotence vs goodness was central to the sect of Catholocism known as the Cathars who considered themselves just as Christian as the pope with their belief in "two creative principals, or Gods, one good and one evil but neither of them are omnipotent. The God portrayed in the Book of Job and elsewhere in the Old Testament, a tyrannical brute infatuated with his own power, is the creater of the material universe, the source of all evil. The God of the New Testament, the source of mercy and love, is the creator of the spiritual realm, which includes his Son, the angels, and the souls of human beings." QUOTE (For Life @ May 9 2009, 12:23 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=73424
It is not hard to answer the question. It is God's will. He permits evil to exist because he permits us to exist. Permitting us to exist is good (for us). If we didn't exist neither would evil.As far as saddling us with sin and suffering we did that to ourselves. See the book of Genesis. One further point with this question. To assume to begin to know the nature of God is pure arrogance. No one can know why God gave us free will. But He did. Should we assume that God is not omnipotent or good because of it? I think assuming is silly as much as it is dangerous.
Speculation is not dangerous, it is human nature to be curious and question everything we do not know. That is one of the benefits of being self aware which sets us apart from animals. It is because of this questioning mentality that we now know that the world is not flat, we don't live in a geocentric universe, there are trillions of galaxies and other answers which Christianity attempted to suppress since they impeded on the fundamental beliefs accepted by the academic community. When Galileo claimed to have proof that the sun was the center of the universe and that we are the ones that were moving he was persecuted by the Church as a heretic since the bible states that the earth cannot be moved, and also since to us it doesn't feel like we are being hurled through space around a giant ball of burning hydrogen.
For my part the Bible is abundantly clear in its explanation of God's unfolding plan, which shows that His omnipotence involves patience and wisdom as to when and how He exercises His power, in themselves qualities of omnipotence which Satan continually trips up on.[/color]By way of contrast to the state of affairs in this current fallen creation with all its worries and woes, according to the Bible, in heaven God's Will is unchallenged by redeemed and resurrected believers who, in perfect worshipful purity, experience God's blessings which come free of the trials and tribulations of the curse which test our faith. These are necessarily a result of Adam and Eve's giving in to temptation and choosing to be disobedient to God's Will.The Jamieson, Faussett, Brown Commentary has this:Revelation 22:2 How striking it is that, as in the beginning we found Adam and Eve, his bride, in innocence in Paradise, then tempted by the serpent, and driven from the tree of life, and from the pleasant waters of Eden, yet not without a promise of a Redeemer who should crush the serpent; so at the close, the old serpent cast out for ever by the second Adam, the Lord from heaven, who appears with His Bride, the Church, in a better Paradise, and amidst better waters (Rev_22:1): the tree of life also is there with all its healing properties, not guarded with a flaming sword, but open to all who overcome (Rev_2:7), and there is no more curse.
Omnipotence is all knowing, all powerful, all seeing, all everything. To say that an omnipotent God, who created everything in the universe from nothing as he saw fit, gave us "free will" to choose for ourselves is contradictory to the definition of omnipotence which makes God all knowing. If he already knows our choice and our lives are just running parallel to his will, doesn't that cancel out free will? The bible makes it clear that he knows what is to come in revelation so we can assume that he knows the future being omnipotent and all. QUOTE (Martin W. @ May 9 2009, 05:13 AM) [url="index.php?act=findpost&pid=73404][/url]
You have asked a question for which there is no answer. We humans can be sure there are trillions of things about God we do not know.The bible says that if everything Jesus did was recorded , the whole world would not hold all the books.It is hard enough for us to even grasp the things told in the bible. We should not go looking for more.God only gives us a tiny glimpse of "himself" . Maybe we will understand it all in the afterlife. Right now we are not capable. The information has not been given to us.The philosopher and the higher learning professors spend much of their lives bringing up these questions. If they only knew Jesus and spent their lives learning what can be known they would be better off. However they prefer to ask endless questions which they know we cannot answer. It just derails us , which may very well be the intention anyway.
These questions are not just posed by pagan philosophers who wish to "derail us." Great Christian minds who lived in and around the time where Papal authority was supreme and the Orthodox Catholic Church ran the government and education in universities such as Thomas Aquinas, Duns Scot, Peter Abelard, Bernard of Clairvaux, and others who were devout God fearing Christians that asked the same questions, with surprisingly genius possible answers, not to question the doctrines of Christianity or to deny the existence of God but to better comprehend their beliefs so as not to follow blindly the will of the papacy. Even the above mentioned question of omnipotence vs goodness was central to the sect of Catholocism known as the Cathars who considered themselves just as Christian as the pope with their belief in "two creative principals, or Gods, one good and one evil but neither of them are omnipotent. The God portrayed in the Book of Job and elsewhere in the Old Testament, a tyrannical brute infatuated with his own power, is the creater of the material universe, the source of all evil. The God of the New Testament, the source of mercy and love, is the creator of the spiritual realm, which includes his Son, the angels, and the souls of human beings." QUOTE (For Life @ May 9 2009, 12:23 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=73424
It is not hard to answer the question. It is God's will. He permits evil to exist because he permits us to exist. Permitting us to exist is good (for us). If we didn't exist neither would evil.As far as saddling us with sin and suffering we did that to ourselves. See the book of Genesis. One further point with this question. To assume to begin to know the nature of God is pure arrogance. No one can know why God gave us free will. But He did. Should we assume that God is not omnipotent or good because of it? I think assuming is silly as much as it is dangerous.
Speculation is not dangerous, it is human nature to be curious and question everything we do not know. That is one of the benefits of being self aware which sets us apart from animals. It is because of this questioning mentality that we now know that the world is not flat, we don't live in a geocentric universe, there are trillions of galaxies and other answers which Christianity attempted to suppress since they impeded on the fundamental beliefs accepted by the academic community. When Galileo claimed to have proof that the sun was the center of the universe and that we are the ones that were moving he was persecuted by the Church as a heretic since the bible states that the earth cannot be moved, and also since to us it doesn't feel like we are being hurled through space around a giant ball of burning hydrogen.
Stumpmaster
Well-Known Member
QUOTE (good times @ May 9 2009, 03:54 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=73430
Omnipotence is all knowing, all powerful, all seeing, all everything. To say that an omnipotent God, who created everything in the universe from nothing as he saw fit, gave us "free will" to choose for ourselves is contradictory to the definition of omnipotence which makes God all knowing. If he already knows our choice and our lives are just running parallel to his will, doesn't that cancel out free will? The bible makes it clear that he knows what is to come in revelation so we can assume that he knows the future being omnipotent and all.
Somehow you have been misled as to the meaning of the word "omnipotence", Good Times.Omnipotence means all powerful, having absolute potency.from Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary Main Entry: QUOTE
1po·tent Pronunciation: ˈpō-tənt Function: adjective Etymology: Middle English, from Latin potent-, potens (present participle of posse to be able), from Latin potis, pote able; akin to Gothic brūthfaths bridegroom, Greek posis husband, Sanskrit pati master Date: 15th century 1: having or wielding force, authority, or influence : powerful2: achieving or bringing about a particular result : effective3 a: chemically or medicinally effective b: rich in a characteristic constituent
Omniscient means all knowing, having absolute science.QUOTE
Main Entry: sci·ence Pronunciation: ˈsī-ən(t)s Function: noun Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French, from Latin scientia, from scient-, sciens having knowledge, from present participle of scire to know; perhaps akin to Sanskrit chyati he cuts off, Latin scindere to split — more at shed Date: 14th century 1: the state of knowing : knowledge as distinguished from ignorance or misunderstanding2 a: a department of systematized knowledge as an object of study b: something (as a sport or technique) that may be studied or learned like systematized knowledge 3 a: knowledge or a system of knowledge covering general truths or the operation of general laws especially as obtained and tested through scientific method b: such knowledge or such a system of knowledge concerned with the physical world and its phenomena : natural science
Omnipresent means always everywhere, all present. QUOTE
Main Entry: om·ni·pres·ent Pronunciation: -zənt Function: adjective Date: 1609 : present in all places at all times
The argument that foreknowledge and freewill are incompatible is quite simply resolved if we accept that before God created the Universe, He predestined Adam and Eve to have freewill, knowing that they would not resist the satanically devised temptation which He permitted, having predestined that the salvation and deliverance of His fallen creation would be paid for by the death of His Son Jesus Christ.Had no freewill been predestined by God, we would all be robotic computerised cyborgs programmed to love or hate without choosing for ourselves, and with no power or knowledge to perform any acts of volition.Got to go now, I'm choosing to do something else.Praise God who is Omnipotent, Omniscient, and Omnipresent.
Omnipotence is all knowing, all powerful, all seeing, all everything. To say that an omnipotent God, who created everything in the universe from nothing as he saw fit, gave us "free will" to choose for ourselves is contradictory to the definition of omnipotence which makes God all knowing. If he already knows our choice and our lives are just running parallel to his will, doesn't that cancel out free will? The bible makes it clear that he knows what is to come in revelation so we can assume that he knows the future being omnipotent and all.
Somehow you have been misled as to the meaning of the word "omnipotence", Good Times.Omnipotence means all powerful, having absolute potency.from Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary Main Entry: QUOTE
1po·tent Pronunciation: ˈpō-tənt Function: adjective Etymology: Middle English, from Latin potent-, potens (present participle of posse to be able), from Latin potis, pote able; akin to Gothic brūthfaths bridegroom, Greek posis husband, Sanskrit pati master Date: 15th century 1: having or wielding force, authority, or influence : powerful2: achieving or bringing about a particular result : effective3 a: chemically or medicinally effective b: rich in a characteristic constituent
Omniscient means all knowing, having absolute science.QUOTE
Main Entry: sci·ence Pronunciation: ˈsī-ən(t)s Function: noun Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French, from Latin scientia, from scient-, sciens having knowledge, from present participle of scire to know; perhaps akin to Sanskrit chyati he cuts off, Latin scindere to split — more at shed Date: 14th century 1: the state of knowing : knowledge as distinguished from ignorance or misunderstanding2 a: a department of systematized knowledge as an object of study b: something (as a sport or technique) that may be studied or learned like systematized knowledge 3 a: knowledge or a system of knowledge covering general truths or the operation of general laws especially as obtained and tested through scientific method b: such knowledge or such a system of knowledge concerned with the physical world and its phenomena : natural science
Omnipresent means always everywhere, all present. QUOTE
Main Entry: om·ni·pres·ent Pronunciation: -zənt Function: adjective Date: 1609 : present in all places at all times
The argument that foreknowledge and freewill are incompatible is quite simply resolved if we accept that before God created the Universe, He predestined Adam and Eve to have freewill, knowing that they would not resist the satanically devised temptation which He permitted, having predestined that the salvation and deliverance of His fallen creation would be paid for by the death of His Son Jesus Christ.Had no freewill been predestined by God, we would all be robotic computerised cyborgs programmed to love or hate without choosing for ourselves, and with no power or knowledge to perform any acts of volition.Got to go now, I'm choosing to do something else.Praise God who is Omnipotent, Omniscient, and Omnipresent.
QUOTE (good times @ May 9 2009, 01:54 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=73430
Speculation is not dangerous, it is human nature to be curious and question everything we do not know. That is one of the benefits of being self aware which sets us apart from animals. It is because of this questioning mentality that we now know that the world is not flat, we don't live in a geocentric universe, there are trillions of galaxies and other answers which Christianity attempted to suppress since they impeded on the fundamental beliefs accepted by the academic community. When Galileo claimed to have proof that the sun was the center of the universe and that we are the ones that were moving he was persecuted by the Church as a heretic since the bible states that the earth cannot be moved, and also since to us it doesn't feel like we are being hurled through space around a giant ball of burning hydrogen.
I didn't say speculation. I said assuming. I wouldn't say Christianity attempted to suppress knowledge. I would say that the people in power at the time attempted to stay in power by any means necessary.
Speculation is not dangerous, it is human nature to be curious and question everything we do not know. That is one of the benefits of being self aware which sets us apart from animals. It is because of this questioning mentality that we now know that the world is not flat, we don't live in a geocentric universe, there are trillions of galaxies and other answers which Christianity attempted to suppress since they impeded on the fundamental beliefs accepted by the academic community. When Galileo claimed to have proof that the sun was the center of the universe and that we are the ones that were moving he was persecuted by the Church as a heretic since the bible states that the earth cannot be moved, and also since to us it doesn't feel like we are being hurled through space around a giant ball of burning hydrogen.
I didn't say speculation. I said assuming. I wouldn't say Christianity attempted to suppress knowledge. I would say that the people in power at the time attempted to stay in power by any means necessary.
QUOTE (Stumpmaster @ May 10 2009, 01:06 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=73448
The argument that foreknowledge and freewill are incompatible is quite simply resolved if we accept that before God created the Universe, He predestined Adam and Eve to have freewill, knowing that they would not resist the satanically devised temptation which He permitted, having predestined that the salvation and deliverance of His fallen creation would be paid for by the death of His Son Jesus Christ.Had no freewill been predestined by God, we would all be robotic computerised cyborgs programmed to love or hate without choosing for ourselves, and with no power or knowledge to perform any acts of volition.Got to go now, I'm choosing to do something else.Praise God who is Omnipotent, Omniscient, and Omnipresent.
Wasnt aware predestination was a belief of Christianity, always thought of it to go hand in hand with Calvinism. If everything, including the fall of man and the deliverance of mankind, is predestined as you assume why not take the existential attitude toward life since everything is going to happen as God wants anyway? If we are just pawns why not just let God play his game?
The argument that foreknowledge and freewill are incompatible is quite simply resolved if we accept that before God created the Universe, He predestined Adam and Eve to have freewill, knowing that they would not resist the satanically devised temptation which He permitted, having predestined that the salvation and deliverance of His fallen creation would be paid for by the death of His Son Jesus Christ.Had no freewill been predestined by God, we would all be robotic computerised cyborgs programmed to love or hate without choosing for ourselves, and with no power or knowledge to perform any acts of volition.Got to go now, I'm choosing to do something else.Praise God who is Omnipotent, Omniscient, and Omnipresent.
Wasnt aware predestination was a belief of Christianity, always thought of it to go hand in hand with Calvinism. If everything, including the fall of man and the deliverance of mankind, is predestined as you assume why not take the existential attitude toward life since everything is going to happen as God wants anyway? If we are just pawns why not just let God play his game?
Stumpmaster
Well-Known Member
QUOTE (good times @ May 10 2009, 09:54 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=73477
Wasnt aware predestination was a belief of Christianity, always thought of it to go hand in hand with Calvinism. If everything, including the fall of man and the deliverance of mankind, is predestined as you assume why not take the existential attitude toward life since everything is going to happen as God wants anyway? If we are just pawns why not just let God play his game?
Allow me to minister to you with this exerpt, Good Times.From the International Standard Bible EncyclopediaQUOTE
Foreordain; Forordinationfor-or-dan', for-or-di-na'-shun: The word "foreordain" is uniformly used in the Revised Version (British and American) to render the Greek proorizo, in the passages where this verb occurs (Act_4:28; Rom_8:29-30; 1Co_2:7; Eph_1:5, Eph_1:11). In the passages in Romans and Ephesians it takes the place of the King James Version word "predestinate," a return to the usage of the older English versions.The word has simply the sense of determining beforehand. It is thus kindred in meaning with a number of other New Testament words expressing the idea of Divine purpose, as "foreknow" (in pregnant sense, Act_2:23; Rom_8:29, etc.); "determine" (Act_17:26); "appoint" (1Pe_2:8). Foreordination, in the widest sense, is coextensive with the sphere of God's universal providence, being but another name for that Divine plan, purpose or counsel which embraces all things, great and small (Mat_10:29-30), that happen in Nature, or fall out in human life.Man's free actions are not regarded in Scripture as excluded from it (Act_2:28). Foreordination, at the same time, is not to be conceived of as in any way overriding, or doing violence to, human freedom. Man acts freely, as Nature acts necessarily, but it is God who appoints the time, place and circumstances of the free act, permits its happening, and overrules it and its issues for the furthering of His own wise and holy ends. See PROVIDENCE. Foreordination in the sphere of grace has respect to the choice, calling and blessing of those who, through faith, are made partakers of eternal life (Rom_8:29-30; Eph_1:5, Eph_1:11). In this, its soteriological aspect, the subject is considered in special articles.See CHOOSE; ELECTION; PREDESTINATION.James Orr
Some Relevant Scriptures1Corinthians 2:7-9(7) " But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom which God ordained before the world to our glory8) Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.(9) But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him."Ephesians 1:4-11(4) "According as He has chosen us in Him, before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love5) Having predestinated us to the adoption of children to Himself by Jesus Christ, according to the good pleasure of His will,(6) To the praise of the glory of his grace, in which He has made us accepted in the beloved7) In whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace;(8) In which He has abounded towards us in all wisdom and prudence;(9) Having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to his good pleasure which He has purposed in Himself10) That in the dispensation of the fullness of times He might collect in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in Him11) In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of Him who works all things after the counsel of His own will:"For Further Study:Lots of stuff in Commentaries, Dictionaries, Encyclopedias etc. [url="http://www.biblestudytools.net/]http://www.biblestudytools.net/[/url]Funny blog about freewill and predestination from John Shore:http://www.crosswalk.com/blogs/johnshore/11549063/Hope this has been edifying and of some use, Good Times.
Wasnt aware predestination was a belief of Christianity, always thought of it to go hand in hand with Calvinism. If everything, including the fall of man and the deliverance of mankind, is predestined as you assume why not take the existential attitude toward life since everything is going to happen as God wants anyway? If we are just pawns why not just let God play his game?
Allow me to minister to you with this exerpt, Good Times.From the International Standard Bible EncyclopediaQUOTE
Foreordain; Forordinationfor-or-dan', for-or-di-na'-shun: The word "foreordain" is uniformly used in the Revised Version (British and American) to render the Greek proorizo, in the passages where this verb occurs (Act_4:28; Rom_8:29-30; 1Co_2:7; Eph_1:5, Eph_1:11). In the passages in Romans and Ephesians it takes the place of the King James Version word "predestinate," a return to the usage of the older English versions.The word has simply the sense of determining beforehand. It is thus kindred in meaning with a number of other New Testament words expressing the idea of Divine purpose, as "foreknow" (in pregnant sense, Act_2:23; Rom_8:29, etc.); "determine" (Act_17:26); "appoint" (1Pe_2:8). Foreordination, in the widest sense, is coextensive with the sphere of God's universal providence, being but another name for that Divine plan, purpose or counsel which embraces all things, great and small (Mat_10:29-30), that happen in Nature, or fall out in human life.Man's free actions are not regarded in Scripture as excluded from it (Act_2:28). Foreordination, at the same time, is not to be conceived of as in any way overriding, or doing violence to, human freedom. Man acts freely, as Nature acts necessarily, but it is God who appoints the time, place and circumstances of the free act, permits its happening, and overrules it and its issues for the furthering of His own wise and holy ends. See PROVIDENCE. Foreordination in the sphere of grace has respect to the choice, calling and blessing of those who, through faith, are made partakers of eternal life (Rom_8:29-30; Eph_1:5, Eph_1:11). In this, its soteriological aspect, the subject is considered in special articles.See CHOOSE; ELECTION; PREDESTINATION.James Orr
Some Relevant Scriptures1Corinthians 2:7-9(7) " But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom which God ordained before the world to our glory
8) Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.(9) But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him."Ephesians 1:4-11(4) "According as He has chosen us in Him, before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love5) Having predestinated us to the adoption of children to Himself by Jesus Christ, according to the good pleasure of His will,(6) To the praise of the glory of his grace, in which He has made us accepted in the beloved7) In whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace;(8) In which He has abounded towards us in all wisdom and prudence;(9) Having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to his good pleasure which He has purposed in Himself10) That in the dispensation of the fullness of times He might collect in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in Him11) In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of Him who works all things after the counsel of His own will:"For Further Study:Lots of stuff in Commentaries, Dictionaries, Encyclopedias etc. [url="http://www.biblestudytools.net/]http://www.biblestudytools.net/[/url]Funny blog about freewill and predestination from John Shore:http://www.crosswalk.com/blogs/johnshore/11549063/Hope this has been edifying and of some use, Good Times.Under the Judeo-Christian definition of God:“Omniscient (all-knowing), Omnipotent (unlimited authority, eternal presence), Perfectly Good (all-balanced)”“God is the indescribable, uncreated, self existent, eternal all knowing source of all reality and being. God is omniscient and omnipotent.”If God is omniscient, God must be all knowledge. If God is omnipotent, God must be present, here and now. If God is perfectly good, God must be completely balanced. OmniscientTo know everything, God must consist of all knowledge. All-knowledge is everything that has happened leading up to the present. Therefore, all-knowledge is all experience leading up to the present moment. God must always be in the present moment to be omniscient.OmnipotentTo have unlimited authority, God must always be present. To always be present, God must be eternal. To be eternal, God must always be the present moment.Got must always be in the present moment to be omnipotent.Perfectly GoodTo be perfectly good, God must be perfectly balanced. To be perfectly balanced, God must be cyclical. To balance a cycle, God must always operate in the present moment within a cycle.God must always be in the present moment to be perfectly good/balanced.If God is indescribable, uncreated, and self-existent, God cannot be an old man in the sky, or a supernatural, divine creator. God cannot be a washed up myth. These are all descriptions, created by man to give birth to the existence of an explanation for God. “An old man in the sky” is a description for an indescribable God. “A supernatural, divine creator,” is also a description for an indescribable God.Using deductive logic, we have figured out that to be omniscient, omnipotent (eternal), and perfectly balanced, God must be a metaphor for that which is always in the present moment.Life is always in the present moment. Love is always in the present moment.God = Life = LoveGod is present, here and now. Life is present, here and now. Love is present, here and now.
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