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On Christmas, Pope Urges End to Wars

Discussion in 'Current Events & Politics Forum' started by Wakka, Dec 25, 2007.

  1. Jordan

    Jordan Active Member

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    (Peacebewithyou;28392)
    (thesuperjag;28342)
    There was a hearing of the Word of God before the bible existed, even though OT writers did write them...by the Spirit. The Bible was created by God nontheless.Jag
    So you agree that God used the Catholic Church as a means for His children to "hear the word" for at least 1,600 years?Are you kidding me? I completely disagree with you. Once a church blasphemy the Word of God and stay that way, how can it stand up. I hate false teachings with a passion. It surely wasn't built upon a rock to me.. You are free to believe in what you want...but I'm not going to believe in lies.(Letsgofishing;28393)
    Yes the other churches are lacking the eucharist.But how does that make us the one and only church.Actually I'm posting this subject on a new thread right now so lets talk about it there.and Jag? hello, who's jesus talking too. Jesus said to him in reply, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah. For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my heavenly Father. And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. 14 Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven." so when Jesus was talking about himself, when did he start talking in third person and refering to himself as "you". he didn't, this passage is obviously about Peter.
    I Corinthians 1:12-13 - Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ. Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?Is Peter crucified for you? Are you baptized in the name of Peter? I thank God that Christ still remains the head of the church. (The body of Christ) (not a literal building)JagLovest thou in Christ Yahshua, Lord and Saviour of the world.
     
  2. Peacebewithyou

    Peacebewithyou New Member

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    (thesuperjag;28397)
    Are you kidding me? I completely disagree with you. Once a church blasphemy the Word of God and stay that way, how can it stand up. I hate false teachings with a passion. It surely wasn't built upon a rock to me.. You are free to believe in what you want...but I'm not going to believe in lies.I Corinthians 1:12-13 - Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ. Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?Is Peter crucified for you? Are you baptized in the name of Peter? I thank God that Christ still remains the head of the church. (The body of Christ) (not a literal building)JagLovest thou in Christ Yahshua, Lord and Saviour of the world.
    Of course we aren't baptized in the name of Peter. Where you you come up with stuff? Christ IS the head of the Church. But Christ knew He wouldn't be here on earth to keep his followers in line so gave Peter authority over His Church. (keys to the kingdom.. bind on earth) Yes, the church is a body of believers.. but what beliefs? Jesus wanted us unified - not coming up with our own ideas... there is only one truth.. not thousands which is what we have today. Everyone with an opinion can say, "THAT isn't what those verses mean.. oh why can't you see it?" Do you think God is suprised by the mess of confusion that exists today?Of course not - which is why Jesus' final prayer was for unity among His followers. Jesus did build His Church starting with Peter. If you don't want to accept that, so be it. But don't kid yourself that it isn't both Biblical and historically true.
     
  3. Peacebewithyou

    Peacebewithyou New Member

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    (thesuperjag;28397)
    I thank God that Christ still remains the head of the church. (The body of Christ) (not a literal building)JagLovest thou in Christ Yahshua, Lord and Saviour of the world.
    Yes, Christ is the HEAD of His Church.But how does he rule that Church?If he rules it your way, by having everyone read the Bible and interpret it themselves, it is a most ineffective rule because the results are literally a myrid of differing "opinions" about everything from the Divinity and Nature of God to how salvation is obtained. Are you so prideful that you believe that YOU have it all figured out? That YOU have God down pat? I am not so prideful to believe that. I recognize that God left a Chruch to guide me. I am willing to subject myself to that Authority that He established, because ultimately that means I subject myself to Christ's authority because He rules His Church.
     
  4. Jordan

    Jordan Active Member

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    (Peacebewithyou;28400)
    (thesuperjag;28397)
    Are you kidding me? I completely disagree with you. Once a church blasphemy the Word of God and stay that way, how can it stand up. I hate false teachings with a passion. It surely wasn't built upon a rock to me.. You are free to believe in what you want...but I'm not going to believe in lies.I Corinthians 1:12-13 - Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ. Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?Is Peter crucified for you? Are you baptized in the name of Peter? I thank God that Christ still remains the head of the church. (The body of Christ) (not a literal building)JagLovest thou in Christ Yahshua, Lord and Saviour of the world.
    Of course we aren't baptized in the name of Peter. Where you you come up with stuff?Christ IS the head of the Church. But Christ knew He wouldn't be here on earth to keep his followers in line so gave Peter authority over His Church. (keys to the kingdom.. bind on earth) Yes, the church is a body of believers.. but what beliefs? Jesus wanted us unified - not coming up with our own ideas... there is only one truth.. not thousands which is what we have today. Everyone with an opinion can say, "THAT isn't what those verses mean.. oh why can't you see it?" Do you think God is suprised by the mess of confusion that exists today?Of course not - which is why Jesus' final prayer was for unity among His followers.Jesus did build His Church starting with Peter. If you don't want to accept that, so be it. But don't kid yourself that it isn't both Biblical and historically true.Either Christ is the head of the church or not. Can't have both Christ and Peter. Seeing how Christianity (all denominations) have in their own man-made doctrines...there are so many divisions. And Christ came to bring divisions. I'll still stick with the Word over men and denominations anyday. Besides Peter is dead. It doesn't mean that Peter is the way to Heaven. Christ is the Way to Heaven.JagLovest thou in Christ Yahshua, Lord and Saviour of the world.
     
  5. Peacebewithyou

    Peacebewithyou New Member

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    (thesuperjag;28403)
    Either Christ is the head of the church or not. Can't have both Christ and Peter. Seeing how Christianity (all denominations) have in their own man-made doctrines...there are so many divisions. And Christ came to bring divisions. I'll still stick with the Word over men and denominations anyday. Besides Peter is dead. It doesn't mean that Peter is the way to Heaven. Christ is the Way to Heaven.JagLovest thou in Christ Yahshua, Lord and Saviour of the world.
    Again, where do you come up with this stuff? Who said Peter was the way to Heaven? Not Catholics. Christ is the way, the truth and the life. Peter was the first person Christ put in charge of his Church, giving Him the keys to the kingdom. What does that verse mean to you? Please explain to me what that verse means if it isn't just as we've been saying?
     
  6. Peacebewithyou

    Peacebewithyou New Member

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    (thesuperjag;28403)
    Either Christ is the head of the church or not. Can't have both Christ and Peter. Seeing how Christianity (all denominations) have in their own man-made doctrines...there are so many divisions. .
    There weren't divisions until people started leaving the One Church and forming their own, based on, (you are right) their own man-made doctrines... I'm sticking with the ONLY Church that Christ established when He gave Peter the keys to the kingdom.. bind on earth = bound in heaven.
     
  7. Peacebewithyou

    Peacebewithyou New Member

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    Example of how both Christ and Peter can be the head of the Church:My husband is the head of our family, which is an authority given to Him by God.My husbands makes the (major) decisions for our family and we abide by them, because God has put Him in charge.Does this mean we worship my husband? No, of course not. We are being obedient to God by being obedient to the authority He established for families. If God established an authority in families, knowing full well that somebody has to be in charge, why is such a stretch to see that he also established an authority in His Church? Someone needs to be in charge. Ultimately that someone is Christ - however, he guides His Church through the Authority He established. Just like he guides my family through my husband.Acts 20:28 28Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own bloodPeople "overseeing" others - totally biblical.
     
  8. crooner

    crooner New Member

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    If the Catholic church is the original church it sure got off base so very early on. worse than what the Jews did.
     
  9. Peacebewithyou

    Peacebewithyou New Member

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    (crooner;28412)
    If the Catholic church is the original church it sure got off base so very early on. worse than what the Jews did.
    At what point do you believe it got off base? How early on?Because many of the beliefs held by Catholics - specifically that John 6 is literal was held by the Earliest Chrisitans. Ignatius was taught by the Apostle John and he believed it was literally Jesus, as did Augustine. Which is a teaching that, as you know, was rejected sometime around 1700 AD. So who exactly got off track? Either the Church literally fell into apostacy as soon as Jesus left OR, the differing opinons today are the result of apostacy creeping in, slowly over time.
     
  10. Jordan

    Jordan Active Member

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    (Peacebewithyou;28401)
    (thesuperjag;28397)
    I thank God that Christ still remains the head of the church. (The body of Christ) (not a literal building) Jag Lovest thou in Christ Yahshua, Lord and Saviour of the world.
    Yes, Christ is the HEAD of His Church. But how does he rule that Church? If he rules it your way, by having everyone read the Bible and interpret it themselves, it is a most ineffective rule because the results are literally a myrid of differing "opinions" about everything from the Divinity and Nature of God to how salvation is obtained. Are you so prideful that you believe that YOU have it all figured out? That YOU have God down pat? I am not so prideful to believe that. I recognize that God left a Chruch to guide me. I am willing to subject myself to that Authority that He established, because ultimately that means I subject myself to Christ's authority because He rules His Church.Prideful??????? Only a fool thinks s/he knows everything. There is only One that knows everything.(Peacebewithyou;)
    (thesuperjag;28403)
    Either Christ is the head of the church or not. Can't have both Christ and Peter. Seeing how Christianity (all denominations) have in their own man-made doctrines...there are so many divisions. And Christ came to bring divisions. I'll still stick with the Word over men and denominations anyday. Besides Peter is dead. It doesn't mean that Peter is the way to Heaven. Christ is the Way to Heaven. Jag Lovest thou in Christ Yahshua, Lord and Saviour of the world.
    Again, where do you come up with this stuff? Who said Peter was the way to Heaven? Not Catholics. Christ is the way, the truth and the life. Peter was the first person Christ put in charge of his Church, giving Him the keys to the kingdom. What does that verse mean to you? Please explain to me what that verse means if it isn't just as we've been saying?It means that Christ will a church upon ths rock... that Hell will not prevail it. Other words, Christ is not going to allow a lie creep into His church (Believers). If it does, How can it be His church if they continue to go into that lie? Most churches are either preaching false doctrines, and/or making His Father's house a business. They are both wrong.And how do you know which church you are in according to Revelation 2-3?(Peacebewithyou;28408)
    (thesuperjag;28403)
    Either Christ is the head of the church or not. Can't have both Christ and Peter. Seeing how Christianity (all denominations) have in their own man-made doctrines...there are so many divisions. .
    There weren't divisions until people started leaving the One Church and forming their own, based on, (you are right) their own man-made doctrines...I'm sticking with the ONLY Church that Christ established when He gave Peter the keys to the kingdom.. bind on earth = bound in heaven.Actually there were divisions way long ago before the Catholic church existed. Like in the very beginning of this Earth Age...after Adam & Eve sinned.JagLovest thou in Christ Yahshua, Lord and Saviour of the world.
     
  11. Wakka

    Wakka Super Member

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    Tell me in scripture where God gives anyone the authority to forgive sins. Last time I checked The Lord was the only one who was worthy enough to sacrifice Himself to wipe the sin from believers. Why would Christ need any help with that task, especially from a sinful human.
     
  12. Jordan

    Jordan Active Member

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    (Wakka;28423)
    Tell me in scripture where God gives anyone the authority to forgive sins. Last time I checked The Lord was the only one who was worthy enough to sacrifice Himself to wipe the sin from believers. Why would Christ need any help with that task, especially from a sinful human.
    I agree with you 100% Wakka. :amen: AND :blessyou:JagLovest thou in Christ Yahshua, Lord and Saviour of the world.
     
  13. Letsgofishing

    Letsgofishing New Member

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    (Wakka;28423)
    Tell me in scripture where God gives anyone the authority to forgive sins. Last time I checked The Lord was the only one who was worthy enough to sacrifice Himself to wipe the sin from believers. Why would Christ need any help with that task, especially from a sinful human.
    Ok....I have just the verse21Again Jesus said, "Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you." 22And with that he breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit. 23If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven."Shoot it I proved you wrong [​IMG]Sorryyour brother in christRyan Fitz
     
  14. Peacebewithyou

    Peacebewithyou New Member

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    (Wakka;28423)
    Tell me in scripture where God gives anyone the authority to forgive sins. Last time I checked The Lord was the only one who was worthy enough to sacrifice Himself to wipe the sin from believers. Why would Christ need any help with that task, especially from a sinful human.
    Here you go:James 5:16 Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.Seriously, do you think Catholics believe the "Priest" wipes away our sins? That is just ridiculous. Jesus Christ's shed blood on the cross is the reason we are forgiven.
     
  15. Peacebewithyou

    Peacebewithyou New Member

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    (Letsgofishing;28431)
    Ok....I have just the verse21Again Jesus said, "Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you." 22And with that he breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit. 23If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven."Shoot it I proved you wrong [​IMG]Sorryyour brother in christRyan Fitz
    Opps! I didn't see this post Ryan. I guess you are 0 for 2, Wakka. Show US the verse where it says we are NOT to confess our sins to others.. (I'll save you the trouble, they don't exsit.. unless you believe God contracts Himself :naughty:) I especially like this one .. "... if you forgive anyone his sins they are forgiven.. if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven."Again, sounds like authority.
     
  16. Peacebewithyou

    Peacebewithyou New Member

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    (thesuperjag;28420)
    It means that Christ will a church upon ths rock... that Hell will not prevail it. Other words, Christ is not going to allow a lie creep into His church (Believers). If it does, How can it be His church if they continue to go into that lie? Most churches are either preaching false doctrines, and/or making His Father's house a business. They are both wrong.JagLovest thou in Christ Yahshua, Lord and Saviour of the world.
    How do YOU know if the beliefs you are following aren't a lie?And don't go saying you stand only on the Bible. You stand only on your interpretation of the Bible - there is a difference. But let's assume YOU are 100% correct... you are a true believer who is part of the church where God doesn't allow lies to creep in. I should be able to find people in the Early Church who share your views, right? Because unless it was junk from almost day 1 - there should be YOUR view thoughout history by the "believers." (hell would not prevail, right?) So let's just take the topic of it being Jesus' literal flesh (John 6) .. please direct me to the "believers" who felt it was symbolic. Who were they? (hint: total waste of time looking... every Christian believed it was literal)
     
  17. Wakka

    Wakka Super Member

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    (Letsgofishing;28431)
    Ok....I have just the verse21Again Jesus said, "Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you." 22And with that he breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit. 23If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven."Shoot it I proved you wrong [​IMG]Sorryyour brother in christRyan Fitz
    That's only valid if the sin was committed onto you. Like if a person stole from you, and you forgive them, then their sin is no longer there. However, if they stole from you, and you do not forgive them, that is a sin for you. And they can ask God for forgiveness and their sins will be gone.Why would anyone have to see a priest to get rid of a sin, that's ridiculous.Also, PeaceBeWithYou, your argument is not right. That verse just says that Christians are a lot stronger against sin, and they are able to correct each other if they are together. That is why we have the Church of Jesus Christ (not Roman Catholic). Having a human leader who is above everyone else, and has the right to change God's laws is simply blasphemy in it's purest form.
     
  18. Wakka

    Wakka Super Member

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    (Peacebewithyou;28442)
    How do YOU know if the beliefs you are following aren't a lie?And don't go saying you stand only on the Bible. You stand only on your interpretation of the Bible - there is a difference.
    Please explain what you mean interpretation of the Bible.
     
  19. Jordan

    Jordan Active Member

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    (Peacebewithyou;28442)
    How do YOU know if the beliefs you are following aren't a lie?And don't go saying you stand only on the Bible. You stand only on your interpretation of the Bible - there is a difference. But let's assume YOU are 100% correct... you are a true believer who is part of the church where God doesn't allow lies to creep in. I should be able to find people in the Early Church who share your views, right? Because unless it was junk from almost day 1 - there should be YOUR view thoughout history by the "believers." (hell would not prevail, right?) So let's just take the topic of it being Jesus' literal flesh (John 6) .. please direct me to the "believers" who felt it was symbolic. Who were they? (hint: total waste of time looking... every Christian believed it was literal)
    I'm not interested in what humans thinks of what He says. I want wisdom from God. And Christ speak symbolic. We are not suppose to understand the bible in a carnal-minded way.My own interpretation? you mean I should take the interpretation of the church fathers? Is not God greater than these men? And I do go by the bible, thank you very much.JagLovest thou in Christ Yahshua, Lord and Saviour of the world.
     
  20. Letsgofishing

    Letsgofishing New Member

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    (Wakka;28472)
    That's only valid if the sin was committed onto you. Like if a person stole from you, and you forgive them, then their sin is no longer there. However, if they stole from you, and you do not forgive them, that is a sin for you. And they can ask God for forgiveness and their sins will be gone.Why would anyone have to see a priest to get rid of a sin, that's ridiculous.Also, PeaceBeWithYou, your argument is not right. That verse just says that Christians are a lot stronger against sin, and they are able to correct each other if they are together. That is why we have the Church of Jesus Christ (not Roman Catholic). Having a human leader who is above everyone else, and has the right to change God's laws is simply blasphemy in it's purest form.
    I don't think you need a priest. God is obviously talented enough, heck he made talent, to be able to forgive sins on his own. I mean Ive said that God is allpowerful in the past haven't I. there you go you don't need a priest.But it is a way to get your sins forgiven, and one of the best. Theres just a kind of Magic hearing God speak through a human being and saying " your since are forgiven go in peace." is confession the only way. Of course not, it doesn't matter what my fellow catholics say. Use common sense, the bible says " repent and the kingdom of heaven shall be yours." it doesn't say you need to repent in a confessional box.your brother in christRyan Fitz
     
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