On this ROCK I will build my church

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TonyChanYT

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Jesus spoke to Peter in Matthew 16:

18 I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.
Jesus was being gracious in this metaphor of comparing Peter with the rock of the church.

On the day of Pentecost, after the appearance of the tongues of fire, Acts 2:

14 Peter stood up with the Eleven, raised his voice and addressed the crowd: “Fellow Jews and all of you who live in Jerusalem, let me explain this to you; listen carefully to what I say."
It was Peter who proclaimed the gospel in this first big Christian meeting.

Later, the Sanhedrin seized Peter and John, Acts 4:

8 Then Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said to them, “Rulers and elders of the people! 9If we are being examined today about a kind service to a man who was lame, to determine how he was healed, 10then let this be known to all of you and to all the people of Israel: It is by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified but whom God raised from the dead, that this man stands before you healed. 11This Jesus is
‘the stone you builders rejected,
which has become the cornerstone.
12Salvation exists in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved.” 11 This Jesus is the stone that was rejected by you, the builders, which has become the cornerstone.
Peter recognized that Jesus was the stone and cornerstone.
 
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Augustin56

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Christ was establishing a dynastic office (means it was to have successors) in line with how kings (Jesus is our King) always had a second-in-command to rule the kingdom during their absence (off to war, visiting other kingdoms, ill, etc,.). This second-in-command ruled with the king's authority, and whatever he ruled was upheld by the king upon his return. The symbol of this office was a large key or two (2-3 ft. long) that he carried over his shoulder as a symbol of his authority. Jesus giving Peter "the keys to the kingdom" is the key point that tells us that this is what was going on. (see Isaiah 22:22 for an example of this office)

Peter (and the Popes who succeeded him) is the unifying principle, around which we are all called to gather. In Luke 22:31-32, Jesus says,

“Simon, Simon, behold Satan has demanded to sift all of you like wheat, but I have prayed that your own faith may not fail; and once you have turned back, you must strengthen your brothers.”

Satan demands to sift "all of you like wheat." What does it mean to "sift?" It means to divide and divide and divide, much as Protestantism has done in the last 500 years, continually. Then, Jesus says, "but I have prayed that your own faith may not fail..." He is specifically praying for Peter individually (vs. everyone else Satan is looking to "sift"). Why? Because to counter Satan wanting to divide and divide and divide, there must be a unifying principle behind which Christ's followers can unify. This is the office held by Peter.
 
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O'Darby

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Christ was establishing a dynastic office (means it was to have successors) in line with how kings (Jesus is our King) always had a second-in-command to rule the kingdom during their absence (off to war, visiting other kingdoms, ill, etc,.). This second-in-command ruled with the king's authority, and whatever he ruled was upheld by the king upon his return. The symbol of this office was a large key or two (2-3 ft. long) that he carried over his shoulder as a symbol of his authority. Jesus giving Peter "the keys to the kingdom" is the key point that tells us that this is what was going on. (see Isaiah 22:22 for an example of this office)

Peter (and the Popes who succeeded him) is the unifying principle, around which we are all called to gather. In Luke 22:31-32, Jesus says,

“Simon, Simon, behold Satan has demanded to sift all of you like wheat, but I have prayed that your own faith may not fail; and once you have turned back, you must strengthen your brothers.”

Satan demands to sift "all of you like wheat." What does it mean to "sift?" It means to divide and divide and divide, much as Protestantism has done in the last 500 years, continually. Then, Jesus says, "but I have prayed that your own faith may not fail..." He is specifically praying for Peter individually (vs. everyone else Satan is looking to "sift"). Why? Because to counter Satan wanting to divide and divide and divide, there must be a unifying principle behind which Christ's followers can unify. This is the office held by Peter.
The Eastern Orthodox, of course, would strongly disagree with your analysis. It seems a bit odd that the primacy of the Bishop of Rome as a Pope was rather slow in evolving and ultimately so controversial that it was a key factor in the Great Schism. Like so many controversial doctrines, one might have expected the Papacy to be stated more clearly an explicitly than Matthew 16:18. Paul apparently had gotten the message at the time he was writing his epistles.

(Just to be clear, I am neither Eastern Orthodox nor Catholic, but I do believe the Orthodox have the stronger claim to being the One True Apostolic Church.)
 
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Augustin56

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The Eastern Orthodox, of course, would strongly disagree with your analysis. It seems a bit odd that the primacy of the Bishop of Rome as a Pope was rather slow in evolving and ultimately so controversial that it was a key factor in the Great Schism. Like so many controversial doctrines, one might have expected the Papacy to be stated more clearly an explicitly than Matthew 16:18. Paul apparently had gotten the message at the time he was writing his epistles.

(Just to be clear, I am neither Eastern Orthodox nor Catholic, but I do believe the Orthodox have the stronger claim to being the One True Apostolic Church.)
There was no Eastern Orthodox Church before 1054 A.D., when the Great Schism happened. Before that, all Christians belonged to the Catholic Church. See a short video on what actually happened then, here:

Matt. 16:18 could not have been clearer to those living in Jesus' time and region. Every first century Jew knew that the king always had a second-in-command, who ran the kingdom in the king's absence (away at war, visiting another kingdom, etc.) or when he was incapacitated (sick, injured, etc.). This second-in-command would rule in the king's place, and the king, upon his return, would uphold whatever the second-in-command had ruled. (See an example of this office in Isaiah 22:22.) This position of second-in-command was dynastic. If he died, then another was appointed in his place. In other words, it was an on-going position. (Like the Pope.) The symbol of the office of the second-in-command was a large (2-3 ft.) key or sometimes two keys, which he carried over his shoulder to let people know his authority. When Jesus gave Peter the "keys to the kingdom" He was establishing such a second-in-command position, because Jesus (Our King!), was going to ascend to heaven and He needed someone to run the Church here on earth until He returned.
 

O'Darby

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I truly don't have a dog in the fight, but my studies extend far beyond YouTube videos and I cast my vote with the Eastern Orthodox. The history of how the Bishop of Rome evolved into the Supreme Pontiff pretty much speaks for itself. Again I say: Just a bit odd, isn't it, that Paul (and Luke, for that matter) doesn't seem to have gotten the message? I'll leave it there because I realize it's an emotional and vitally important issue to those who do have a dog in the fight.
 

Mr E

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Christ was establishing a dynastic office (means it was to have successors) in line with how kings (Jesus is our King) always had a second-in-command to rule the kingdom during their absence (off to war, visiting other kingdoms, ill, etc,.). This second-in-command ruled with the king's authority, and whatever he ruled was upheld by the king upon his return. The symbol of this office was a large key or two (2-3 ft. long) that he carried over his shoulder as a symbol of his authority. Jesus giving Peter "the keys to the kingdom" is the key point that tells us that this is what was going on. (see Isaiah 22:22 for an example of this office)

Peter (and the Popes who succeeded him) is the unifying principle, around which we are all called to gather. In Luke 22:31-32, Jesus says,

“Simon, Simon, behold Satan has demanded to sift all of you like wheat, but I have prayed that your own faith may not fail; and once you have turned back, you must strengthen your brothers.”

Satan demands to sift "all of you like wheat." What does it mean to "sift?" It means to divide and divide and divide, much as Protestantism has done in the last 500 years, continually. Then, Jesus says, "but I have prayed that your own faith may not fail..." He is specifically praying for Peter individually (vs. everyone else Satan is looking to "sift"). Why? Because to counter Satan wanting to divide and divide and divide, there must be a unifying principle behind which Christ's followers can unify. This is the office held by Peter.

Dogma.


That's why we take our shoes off at the door. In case anyone stepped in dogma.
 

O'Darby

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Dogma.


That's why we take our shoes off at the door. In case anyone stepped in dogma.
Hey, Mr. E! It's me - Runner - from that "other" forum where we were both summarily banned on the same day! Good to see you - and to see that you have survived here for at least 3,141 posts.
 

Mr E

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Hey, Mr. E! It's me - Runner - from that "other" forum where we were both summarily banned on the same day! Good to see you - and to see that you have survived here for at least 3,141 posts.

From White Horse?

Or was it a different one?
 

Augustin56

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I truly don't have a dog in the fight, but my studies extend far beyond YouTube videos and I cast my vote with the Eastern Orthodox. The history of how the Bishop of Rome evolved into the Supreme Pontiff pretty much speaks for itself. Again I say: Just a bit odd, isn't it, that Paul (and Luke, for that matter) doesn't seem to have gotten the message? I'll leave it there because I realize it's an emotional and vitally important issue to those who do have a dog in the fight.
Well, to be honest, the intellectual level of this site is about on the YouTube video level, so that's where I usually try first. There are, of course, much deeper resources to be had, if you're interested. And I have long subjugated my emotions to my intellect, so this isn't an emotion-driven issue for me. I am always about seeking truth, wherever it may be found.

From what little you wrote, it certainly seems like you're viewing Scripture through 21st century, western cultural eyes. Just an observation...
 

O'Darby

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Well, to be honest, the intellectual level of this site is about on the YouTube video level, so that's where I usually try first. There are, of course, much deeper resources to be had, if you're interested. And I have long subjugated my emotions to my intellect, so this isn't an emotion-driven issue for me. I am always about seeking truth, wherever it may be found.

From what little you wrote, it certainly seems like you're viewing Scripture through 21st century, western cultural eyes. Just an observation...
Your last sentence puzzles me. Perhaps you can clarify. This issue to me has less to do with Scripture than with history. The early Christians seem to have had remarkably little notion of Peter as a forerunner Pope or of any early Bishop of Rome as a Pope - or, indeed, of an office of the Papacy at all. If someone is a Catholic I can understand how the origins of the Papacy are believed to be traceable to Jesus' words to Peter, but this seems to me an instance of attempting to get way too much mileage out of a highly ambiguous verse. As with many doctrines, if Jesus had acfually been creating an office as powerful as the Papacy I believe that He (and the Bible) would have made this far more clear. I agree with your point that the Reformation was largely a disaster for Christianity, but I continue to believe the Eastern Orthodox have the strongest claim to being the one true apostolic church.
 

Augustin56

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Your last sentence puzzles me. Perhaps you can clarify. This issue to me has less to do with Scripture than with history. The early Christians seem to have had remarkably little notion of Peter as a forerunner Pope or of any early Bishop of Rome as a Pope - or, indeed, of an office of the Papacy at all. If someone is a Catholic I can understand how the origins of the Papacy are believed to be traceable to Jesus' words to Peter, but this seems to me an instance of attempting to get way too much mileage out of a highly ambiguous verse. As with many doctrines, if Jesus had acfually been creating an office as powerful as the Papacy I believe that He (and the Bible) would have made this far more clear. I agree with your point that the Reformation was largely a disaster for Christianity, but I continue to believe the Eastern Orthodox have the strongest claim to being the one true apostolic church.
Keep in mind that the Church preceded the New Testament by quite a bit. The Church didn't decide which documents were worthy of being called Scripture (New Testament) till the late 4th century, at the Councils of Rome, Hippo, and Carthage.

The Early Church Fathers, those closest in time to Christ and the Apostles, believed that there was a primacy and authority in the office of the papacy. In a wide variety of ways, the Fathers attest to the fact that the church of Rome was the central and most authoritative church. They attest to the Church’s reliance on Rome for advice, for mediation of disputes, and for guidance on doctrinal issues. They note, as Ignatius of Antioch (appointed by St. Peter himself) does, that Rome “holds the presidency” among the other churches, and that, as Irenaeus explains, “because of its superior origin, all the churches must agree” with Rome. They are also clear on the fact that it is communion with Rome and the bishop of Rome that causes one to be in communion with the Catholic Church. This displays a recognition that, as Cyprian of Carthage puts it, Rome is “the principal church, in which sacerdotal unity has its source.”

Some writers, particularly Eastern Orthodox, have suggested that the Bishop of Rome enjoyed only a “primacy of honor” in the early Church. But this suggestion misunderstands the way that “primacy” and “honor” were understood in antiquity.

In both Greek and Roman usage, “honor” was a way of speaking of office and authority. It’s why Aristotle declares in his Politics that “the offices of a state are posts of honor,” and those “excluded from power will be dishonored” and recounts how “riches became the path to honor, and so oligarchies naturally grew up.” Primacy was therefore something more than just “honor” in the narrow sense that we mean the term today, which is why the First Council of Nicaea (325) speaks of Alexandria having “jurisdiction” to name local bishops but then speaks of Jerusalem as having “the next place of honor” in doing so.

What the council was delineating was not who it liked best or thought the most honorable but which bishops had the jurisdiction in particular regions to select bishops. Recognizing the pope’s “primacy of honor,” properly understood, is a recognition of papal authority and papal supremacy.

The Church Fathers, taken individually or together, reflect the same structure of the Church: a small, collaborative family in which conflicts would occasionally arise, conflicts which could and would be adjudicated by the Bishop of Rome. In this way, the successors of Peter carried out (and continue to carry out) the unique mission entrusted to Peter by Jesus Christ.