OSAS Corruption of the Repentant Publican

[robert derrick]

And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.

I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

This unrighteous sinning publican smites his breast in wretchedness, seeking mercy before the Lord, and walks away justified.

This means that he repented, was forgiven, and walked away to sin no more, even as the adulteress.

OSAS however declares that he was justified for breast beating, not for repenting.

What does it say about a church, where the greatest example to follow is a wretched double minded and bewailing breast beater, that does not repent?

That is not the man in Scripture written with ink, who did repent to sin no more, but is the corrupted version and hero of the OSAS churches written in their own minds.

 

[robert derrick]

OSAS forever quotes being in an ongoing state of an unrighteous sinning publican. We read in Scripture of this publican doing so once, but we read on this site these publicans going on and on and on with it.

OSAS thinks acknowledging what low-life sinners they are is the justification, not the repentance from it.

As with Romans 7 double heartedness for life, they turn breast beating into a lifetime boasting of just how depraved they stay.

They don't beat their breasts in humbleness before the Lord and seeking mercy to repent, but rather thump their chests to boast in God's face how unrepentedly messed up they still are.

Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

It wouldn't be surprising, with the amount of times OSAS has trotted out their most favorite character in the Bible, to thump their chests alongside him, that their own chests aren't half sunk in.

But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble.

Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.

Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.

Humility and drawing nigh to God is by resisting the devil not to sin with him, not by forever proudly boasting of how messed up we are, even more so than that poor hapless publican.

The OSAS' corrupted version of the publican, is some sort of eternal breast beating goon, caught in an unrepented sad sack stasis forever.

And then they trot him out like a knife to stick in the pure hearts of righteousness, as being Pharisees despising the weak.

We don't despise those that are wretchedly in double heartedness, since Paul was obviously also there for a time. We just get fed up with those that proclaim it for life, and roar about it like some depraved king kong of christianity.

 

[robert derrick]

Has anyone else noticed, that we always hear from OSAS about how they are always a 'work in progress', and ever working on repenting to do more good and less evil, but they never ever report any real progress in doing so?

I mean, it's like they're in perpetual stasis with their lifelong hero: the unrepented crying publican.

Jesus is righteous the same yesterday, today, and forever, while OSAS is always the same sort of righteous yesterday, today, and forever never righteous altogether.

They never ever preach the publican of inky Scripture, that was justified when we walked away in repentance.

The only publican they preach is the one of their own minds and lives, that is never justified by repenting, but only by faith in bewailing all over themselves.

 

[marks]

More slander.

 

[robert derrick]

More slander.

More marks.

You no longer provide the details of your slander, but now just throw it out there as a blurb.

Soon, you'll finally disappear altogether and go play elsewhere.

 

[marks]

More marks.

You no longer provide the details of your slander, but now just throw it out there as a blurb.

Soon, you'll finally disappear altogether and go play elsewhere.

Are you saying you aren't aware of what statements you've made that I've said are false? Hard to imagine, but, OK, I can show the specifics. I'll keep that in mind.

Much love!

 

[robert derrick]

Are you saying you aren't aware of what statements you've made that I've said are false? Hard to imagine, but, OK, I can show the specifics. I'll keep that in mind.

Much love!

I wait with bated breath. Actually quoting something I say and trying to correct it would be refreshing.

Until then, all you have is 'more slander' blurbs.

 

[marks]

I mean, it's like they're in perpetual stasis with their lifelong hero: the unrepented crying publican.

More slander.

that was justified when we walked away in repentance.

Repentance isn't actually named in that passage, you realize.

This is a story from Jesus to show the distinction between self-justification, and justification found in faith and humility.

The only publican they preach is the one of their own minds and lives, that is never justified by repenting, but only by faith in bewailing all over themselves.

The story Jesus told was of justification in humility. Not about "bewailing all over themselves".

More slander.

OSAS forever quotes being in an ongoing state of an unrighteous sinning publican.

More slander.

OSAS thinks acknowledging what low-life sinners they are is the justification, not the repentance from it.

Justification is by faith in Christ, not by someone's high opinion of themself.

This unrighteous sinning publican smites his breast in wretchedness, seeking mercy before the Lord, and walks away justified.

This means that he repented, was forgiven, and walked away to sin no more, even as the adulteress.

OSAS however declares that he was justified for breast beating, not for repenting.

You've added to the Scripture and changed the meaning of the passage. Your very foundation is false.

On and on it goes.

Much love!

 

[marks]

I wait with bated breath. Actually quoting something I say and trying to correct it would be refreshing.

Until then, all you have is 'more slander' blurbs.

Haven't you been reading my posts?

No, I suppose you have not.

If you decide to actually see what I myself say, I guess I'll see that in what you respond, should you care to.

Much love!

 

[robert derrick]

Now, you have finally at along last become someone worthy of attention. Good job. I hope you can correct me, and so make the doctrine more perfected.

More slander.

My fair spin on OSAS teaching without all the fluff. Are you saying that OSAS does not teach being double hearted sinners for life?

Answer yes or no, or correct it to be more perfect, so you don't lose my attention.

I am looking for a worthy foe, that could even become a correcting teacher.

Repentance isn't actually named in that passage, you realize.

True. But since Scripture on paper preaches that we must first repent to believe, then we must first repent to be justified by faith.

He walked away justified, not just because he bewailed himself, but because he repented himself to go and sin no more.

Are you saying that someone is justified of God just because we agree with Him how lousy we are, but without change?

yes or no.

This is a story from Jesus to show the distinction between self-justification, and justification found in faith and humility.

Scripture in James says humbling ourselves to God is by the repenting work of resisting the devil to flee from us, that we might not sin.

Self-justification is to be justified without repenting by by words only. Call ourselves low down dirty dogs does not impress the Lord. He already knows that. It's the same as thinking to be saved and justified by agreeing there is one God. He already knows that.

No man walks away justified without works of faith, which is not just words, but in deed and in truth. OSAS justification by faith and words only is false.

Justification is by faith in Christ, not by someone's high opinion of themself.

Justification is by works of faith, not by faith and words alone.

Scripture says he walked away justified, therefore, it must be by works of repentance and not by words of faith only.

My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.

All of OSAS is about one purpose: to do away with James 2 and make salvation and justification by faith alone without works. They are both by grace, because no man can believe nor do the will of God to His good pleasure, without His grace helping us to do so.

J
You've added to the Scripture and changed the meaning of the passage. Your very foundation is false.

I add the Scripture written in ink, that we are justified by works, and not by faith alone, to your OSAS scriptures written in your mind.

OSAS teaches inky letters on paper matter no more. Not me.

If you want to engage me, then you will need to do so with all letters of Scripture. When you reject what is written in letters, ro just say it isn't so, and stick to the scriptures of your own mind, then we are no longer engaged.

Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

J
On and on it goes.

Much love!

Not true. I am only staying with you, so long as the letters on paper are too.

If you decide to actually see what I myself say, I guess I'll see that in what you respond, should you care to.

Much love!

I am doing so now, because for the first time you are directly responding to what I write point by point, and so long as we fairly and honestly continue to do so with one another, then I am more than glad to do the same for you in anything you write.

In the above exchange you offered one legitimate challenge: that the Scripture does not specifically say the publican repented. You therefore compelled me to give context of all Scripture to show that is the unwritten message of the account: He must have repented, because no man walks away justified by Christ without works, but by words only.

Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.

OSAS doctrine of be justified by words only is false, and is the teaching of their own minds. You can teach it, and I reject it, and if you set aside inky letters otherwise, then we are at an end.

I am only here with you so long as the letters on paper are the final authority.

 

[marks]

He must have repented, because no man walks away justified by Christ without works, but by words only.

Consider what you've just done here.

It didn't say he repented, but he MUST have, because you believe that stopping sinning rather than trusting Jesus is what brings you into salvation. Or so it seems to me.

You may benefit from learning the meaning of the Greek word, Metanoia, translated repentance, meaning the result of an exchanged mind.

This is just like so many other people who say . . . "I believe this certain way, so therefore I must modify the saying of this passage to match what I believe."

I see that all the time.

Are you willing to stay with the letter of what is written? Really?

to show that is the unwritten message of the account

When you change a passage of Scripture to something not actually written, you've changed Scripture to something not actually written.

Much love!

 

[marks]

I am doing so now, because for the first time you are directly responding to what I write point by point, and so long as we fairly and honestly continue to do so with one another, then I am more than glad to do the same for you in anything you write.

Don't try to gaslight me. I've been at this too long.

I've answered you point by point, theme by theme, and by picking out the crux of your argument and responding to that.

Can you fairly and accurately repeat back to me in your own words my point about this passage of the publican and the Pharisee? Can you demonstrate to me you understand what I'm saying?

Much love!

 

[robert derrick]

Consider what you've just done here.

It didn't say he repented, but he MUST have, because you believe that stopping sinning rather than trusting Jesus is what brings you into salvation. Or so it seems to me.

Good and fair challenges, well done and thank you. And so the challenge is that I have added to Scripture to produce my own personal teaching.

1. I have added nothing to the Scripture as written. I do not add, "and he went down to his house justified by repenting, or by works, or by repenting from dead works."

2. I have interpreted the Scriptures by Scriptures, by applying the Scriptural teaching in James, that we are justified by works and not by faith only. Since Jesus declared he went to His house justified, then for the Scriptures not to contradict one another, He could not be saying he was justified by faith only. And so, Jesus must be declaring that there were works of faith to be justified by.

3. It is the same as saying that Jesus must be declaring the publican walked away forgiven, since Scriptural teaching in 1 John is that forgiveness comes only by confession. Neither does this mean we are adding to the Scriptures, that "he went down to his house justified and forgiven."

Due to the plain Scriptures of James 2, concluding with 2:22, whenever Scripture speaks of being justified, it must mean by works, and not by faith only. This does not mean that God must always add those words every time He has Scripture speaking of being justified.

Therefore, in neither case is Scripture being changed to produce a personal teaching of one's own, but rather Scripture is being interpreted rightly by bringing in Scriptural teaching from elsewhere.

To say no man is justified by works, but by faith only, Or that every man is justified by faith only, and not by works, That is corrupting Scripture for a personal teaching of one's own.

because you believe that stopping sinning rather than trusting Jesus is what brings you into salvation. Or so it seems to me.

There is no stop sinning without trusting and believing Jesus, and there is no trusting and believing Jesus without stop sinning.

We repent and believe the gospel at the same time, and there is not one without the other. And no man while sinning for the devil, is repenting nor believing the gospel.

Trusting, believing, and loving are only in deed and in truth, not by words of one's own imagination.

You may benefit from learning the meaning of the Greek word, Metanoia, translated repentance, meaning the result of an exchanged mind.

Repentance is work that begins in the heart and the mind, by the work of casting down and forsaking any thought of sinning for the devil, every time they appear in the mind.

Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts.

Repentance is changing one's mind and keeping it changed, so as not to do what is repented of: that takes working at it, so long as contrary thoughts continue to appear in the mind.

This is just like so many other people who say . . . "I believe this certain way, so therefore I must modify the saying of this passage to match what I believe."

Which is exactly what some in OSAS teach, by declaring the letters of ink don't matter anymore, but only what is written in their minds.

And so, they go about twisting and denying all the ink they want, to believe one thing: they are saved and justified by faith only, and there is no justification by works of faith.

All OSAS is about, is doing away with James 2, and some even go so far as to make all ink of Scripture dead and no longer matters.

Are you willing to stay with the letter of what is written? Really?

Show where I don't. I do appreciate your honest challenges now.

When you change a passage of Scripture to something not actually written, you've changed Scripture to something not actually written.

As shown above, interpreting Scripture by Scripture is not changing Scripture, but proving the teaching of Scripture with the right sense of the word brought in from elsewhere.

So they read in the book in the law of God distinctly, and gave the sense, and caused them to understand the reading.

 

[robert derrick]

I've answered you point by point, theme by theme, and by picking out the crux of your argument and responding to that.

You are to the point and fair in the challenges, thank you.

Can you fairly and accurately repeat back to me in your own words my point about this passage of the publican and the Pharisee? Can you demonstrate to me you understand what I'm saying?

Much love!

"This is a story from Jesus to show the distinction between self-justification, and justification found in faith and humility."

You are saying that Jesus declared a man to be justified by faith and humility only, and not by any works of faith.

1. Since Jesus said he was justified by Christ, then he must have done humble works of faith to be justified by, else James 2:22 is false.

2. Since words were spoken by the publican, then we must conclude that confession with the mouth of sinning, is work of faith in sight of Jesus, that justifies the believer.

That being the case, and since forgiveness is only by confession in 1 John, then we can further conclude that both justification and salvation is by faith with the first works of faith, which includes confession with the mouth of sinning. There is no salvation nor justification without being forgiven, neither before nor apart from forgiveness of sins.

Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins.

 

[marks]

Good and fair challenges, well done and thank you. And so the challenge is that I have added to Scripture to produce my own personal teaching.

Not exactly, but thank you!

My thought is this, that you have a certain POV on the matter, and when you read the Publican/Pharisee passage, you mentally include your conclusions from other passages, that the cessation of sin is necessary to salvation. Ergo, the publican must have repented, because you can't be saved another way.

This passage now is included as your support for your view, as that the Pharisee claimed righteousness but without repentance, and therefore was deluded about his status with God. The publican, on the other hand, being greaved, must have actually repented, and therefore went home justified, and see? You have to repent - stop sinning.

Is this a correct stating of your view? If not, let me know where I'm off, I have no interest in discussing something that you aren't actually saying.

The problem with this as I see it,

The passage does not speak of repentance, and by making that a factor we risk missing what's actually being said.

The Pharisee boasted his self-righteousness. The Publican confessed that he was a sinner, and begged for mercy. We can't get there on our own, and boasting of our own anything is foolishness (in the Biblical sense).

He who boasts, let him boast in the Lord, that he knows the Lord.

This saying from Jesus isn't a story of committing sin, and determining to stop it. It's a story of one man's pride, I don't need anything, and one man's humility, who begs for mercy, confessing their sorry state. This is the mindset of self-righteousness compared to contriteness of heart as the penitant pleads for God's mercy.

God, Who is merciful, and desires all be saved as He loves us all, forgave the lowly, not the proud.

Concerning repentance, these two men demonstrate the actual meaning of the Greek word metanoia, which is the word translated "repentance". This word is a compound of Meta, the preposition denoting position, "after", and, Noia, Mind. The "after-mind", metanoia, is defined as the mind that is resultant from an exchange. You start with one mind, the fleshy mind, what we are all born with. And you've exchanged it for the "mind of Christ", the new mind of the new spirit. The after-mind.

This differs from the Hebrew language repentance, which is "to change your direction/course/destination", like that.

The Pharisee shows the unrepentant mind, the publican shows his repentant mind - his new mind - in his confession of his sin to God, and his knowing he needs God's mercy.

Of course as the Bible continues to teach about repentance, in our rebirth, we were flesh, and now we are spirit. We had a fleshy mind, now we have a spiritual mind. We were in Adam, now we are in Christ. This is the full meaning of the word.

Much love!

 

[marks]

And so, they go about twisting and denying all the ink they want, to believe one thing: they are saved and justified by faith only, and there is no justification by works of faith.

There is the crux of this debate, I think.

To say no man is justified by works, but by faith only, Or that every man is justified by faith only, and not by works, That is corrupting Scripture for a personal teaching of one's own.

Romans 4
1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

And of course it goes on from there. The one who works, the one who doesn't work.

Now, if you read this for exactly what it says, in this passage, that's the meaning. But there is the danger of importing your thoughts into the passage, mentally adding something as you interpret it.

This is no corruption of Scripture, it is in fact the plain teaching of this passage, and so many more, we can go through them all if you like.

I do appreciate your honest challenges now.

I like this very much. And at the moment, I suddenly have my hands full with other things needing done, and I may or may not have much more time today, but Lord willing I'll give you some more complete responses to your posts here.

Much love!

 

[marks]

There is no salvation nor justification without being forgiven, neither before nor apart from forgiveness of sins.

Should we discuss justification itself?

I'm so running out of time today . . . looking forward to tomorrow!

Much love!

 

[robert derrick]

My thought is this, that you have a certain POV on the matter, and when you read the Publican/Pharisee passage, you mentally include your conclusions from other passages

I apply Scripture in James 2 to Luke 18, not a POV: Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

I have not spoken of repentance nor of stop sinning, nor is it a part of the discussion.

The only point I make, is that Jesus cannot be saying the publican was justified by faith only, which contradicts James 2:22. And so I quote James 2:22, that Luke 18 may be in context of all Scripture.

The point you make is that faith with humility must be involved in justification.

I therefore insert justified by works of faith into the teaching of Luke 18, and you insert being justified by faith with humility.

The fact is that Jesus never says anything about faith with humility, nor works of faith, nor even forgiveness, while justifying the publican, we are the ones saying that as part of the teaching of the justified publican.

At this point, I am believing we are both right to do so.

You are not saying the publican is justified by faith only, but by faith with humility, and I am not saying he is justified by works of our own righteousness, but by works of faith, or by faith with works.

Here is my conclusion: saying we are justified by faith with humility is in fact saying we are justified by faith with works, and neither is by faith only, which is without humility nor nor works.

Proof:

Your faith with humility is not faith alone, but is actually faith with the spiritual fruit of humility, and James is saying that spiritual fruit is faith with works, the spiritual fruit of humility produced by God accompanies our necessary work of putting off pride of heart:

Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

Our part in having spiritual fruit produced within us, and so being justified by faith with humility of confession of sins, is cleansing our spirits of all filthiness of the devil, beginning with pride.

Humility is a spiritual fruit of faith in Jesus, which is humbleness, and is therefore only produced by the Spirit as we work and fight inwardly to put away pride, along with bitterness, wrath, malice, etc...

The Pharisee therefore is not justified, because his own words condemn him as still having pride of life, which he does not cleanse from his spirit and mind, while yet cleanses his life outwardly only.

The justified publican however shows the proof of putting off pride and having inward humility for confession with the mouth, And so the man Jesus declares him to be justified by doing so.

The work of faith we do to cleanse our spirit of pride, lust foer the flesh and world, covetousness, malice, and other such unrighteious thoughts are the first works of faith when first loving God with the heart. Jesus rebuked the church at Ephesus in Rev 2 to Ephesus, for after left off doing them, and thus become Pharisees rather than justified publicans.

These first works of faith, by which we are justified by Christ, is cleansing within the platter first, that the filthiness of the flesh may also be cleansed.

This confirms confession, that brings forgiveness of sins, is by faith with humility from the heart, Confession of sins is the first works of faith by which we are both forgiven of sins past and justified by Christ.

Being justified by faith with humility is by faith with works of purging ourselves of pride, that Jesus might produce the humility necessary within us to confess our sins and be forgiven and justified by Him.

That is our part in be forgiven and justified by Christ, and since there is no being saved without be forgiven and justified, then it is our part in being saved, forgiven, and justified by Christ, which are called in Scripture the things that accompany salvation. (Heb 6:9)

Once we are doing our part by grace through the faith of Jesus, to cleanse our spirit and mind of filthy pride and lust and covetousness, etc.. He is also doing His part to produce good fruit of the Spirit with our newly purified hearts and souls born again of God.

You inserting faith with humility, has led to this full teaching on exactly how we are justified by works and not by faith only, but rather by faith with works, the first of which is humility produced by rejecting pride in our spirit and mind.

Thank you. ;)

 

[marks]

The only point I make, is that Jesus cannot be saying the publican was justified by faith only, which contradicts James 2:22. And so I quote James 2:22, that Luke 18 may be in context of all Scripture.

The point you make is that faith with humility must be involved in justification.

I'd like to address one part here . . . in saying that the man had humility, I was more refering to the way Jesus told the story. But in all actuality, justification is by faith alone.

James speaks of works justifying us, but I ask you, justified to whom? When God has already justified us by faith, the works justify us to men. God knows our hearts, know our faith, knows IF we've been born from Him. God knows who are His children.

Again I must apologize, I seem to have a lot more to do today, and I do want to get caught up with you. Right now I just have a few minutes here and there.

But I did want to correct this point before going further.

Romans 4:1-8 KJV
1) What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
2) For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3) For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4) Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5) But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
6) Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
7) Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
8) Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

This is a very specific teaching that God justifies us by faith, and absolutely not by works, or by character change. Faith alone.

But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

To the one who does not work, that's the person who's faith is counted for righteousness.

To the one who is expecting to be justified by God because they've worked good works, that person is left out of this promise of being justified by faith. His faith, that one's faith, is counted for righteousness.

We have to account for that reality as we look at James. We can't change a word.

Much love!

 

[marks]

James 2:17-24 KJV
17) Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18) Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19) Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20) But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21) Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22) Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23) And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24) Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Saving faith . . . or dead faith. God knows your state.

Show me . . . I will show you . . .

God knows whether He has justified you for your real saving faith. Others, you have to show them by your works.

Much love!