Peace, Peace....There is No Peace!

[Eric E Stahl]

The first resurrection is described in Rev:20 as happening at the Lords second coming, that my friend is the only first resurrection. All the rest of your post about 5 phases of the first resurrection, is only in your imagination, read the Word for what it says, not for what you want it to say.

Enoch2010,

When do you believe our spirit goes to heaven?

 

[ENOCH2010]

Enoch2010,

When do you believe our spirit goes to heaven?

I believe the Bible, it says to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. At death the spirit goes back to the Father and the body is buried to await the first resurrection.

 

[Apocalypticist]

Since it's you challenging, to be fair you should offer you're view of what the "deadly wound" of Rev.13 is, and then I will 'show' you from the Scripture how you might either be correct or wrong on the matter.

So basically you're just going to answer the question. You're just going to demand me answer it and then by your own admission take apart my answer and still not give me your answer.

If you didn't know the answer, that's all you had to say. I doubt you even know who Revelation 13 is referring to. I do.

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, veteran.

When Jesus pointed to the area of the temple mount, He wasn't just pointing to one building like the 2nd temple. Literally, not one stone standing on top of another will be left standing there in that area, and it's for the time of His second coming. Thus the planned 3rd temple today's orthodox Jews in Jerusalem will build is going to be destroyed, and His true Milennium Temple will stand in place of it when He returns. As written, The LORD will build the Temple, not man.

Look, I know that there was a Temple COMPLEX of buildings, rooms for storage and rooms for the priests and the mikvah below; however, that doesn't mean that it wasn't already COMPLETELY destroyed in the first century A.D.! The Romans literally PULLED the stones apart to get at the molten gold flowing between the stones! They tore it ALL down in a frenzied gold rush! Just the same, the FOUNDATION of the dirt platform - the RETENTION WALL - was not a part of the Temple complex!

That retention wall was strengthened and raised over the years that the Ottoman Empire controlled the mount! THEY added several layers to the retention wall that weren't originally there, and then they built the Dome of the Rock upon that platform!

Some have thought that the retention wall, too, would have to come down for the prophecy to be fulfilled, but that's not true. The prophecy was ALREADY FULFILLED! On the other hand, because the retention wall supports the platform upon which now the Dome of the Rock sits, it wouldn't hurt my feelings at all if it DID come down, taking the Dome of the Rock with it!

Muslims believe that Islam replaced both Judaism and Christianity as inferior religions, and I believe it's high time they were shown that a few inferior Christians do NOTHING to bring down the Christ or the Kingdom He promised!

As far as the LORD building the Temple, that may or may not be true. See, even when Shlomo haMelekh (Solomon the King) built the first Temple, he himself said this very literally:

2 Chronicles 2:4-10
4 Behold, I build an house to the name of the LORD my God, to dedicate it to him, and to burn before him sweet incense, and for the continual shewbread, and for the burnt offerings morning and evening, on the sabbaths, and on the new moons, and on the solemn feasts of the LORD our God. This is an ordinance for ever to Israel.
5 And the house which I build is great: for great is our God above all gods.
6 But who is able to build him an house, seeing the heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain him? who am I then, that I should build him an house, save only to burn sacrifice before him?
7 Send me now therefore a man cunning to work in gold, and in silver, and in brass, and in iron, and in purple, and crimson, and blue, and that can skill to grave with the cunning men that are with me in Judah and in Jerusalem, whom David my father did provide.
8 Send me also cedar trees, fir trees, and algum trees, out of Lebanon: for I know that thy servants can skill to cut timber in Lebanon; and, behold, my servants shall be with thy servants,
9 Even to prepare me timber in abundance: for the house which I am about to build shall be wonderful great.
10 And, behold, I will give to thy servants, the hewers that cut timber, twenty thousand measures of beaten wheat, and twenty thousand measures of barley, and twenty thousand baths of wine, and twenty thousand baths of oil.
KJV

Psalm 127:1
1 Except the LORD build the house, they labour in vain that build it: except the LORD keep the city, the watchman waketh but in vain.
KJV

The king Koresh (Cyrus) of Persia understood that laborers under him may do the actual, physical work, but it was HE who was charged to build YHWH Elohiym (the LORD God) a new "house" or Temple!

2 Chronicles 36:23
23 Thus saith Cyrus king of Persia, All the kingdoms of the earth hath the LORD God of heaven given me; and he hath charged me to build him an house in Jerusalem, which is in Judah. Who is there among you of all his people? The LORD his God be with him, and let him go up.
KJV

So, when Yesha`yahu's prophecy said,

Isaiah 66:1
66 Thus saith the LORD, The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool: where is the house that ye build unto me? and where is the place of my rest?
KJV

and Z'kharyahu said...

Zechariah 6:9-15
9 And the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
10 Take of them of the captivity, even of Heldai, of Tobijah, and of Jedaiah, which are come from Babylon, and come thou the same day, and go into the house of Josiah the son of Zephaniah;
11 Then take silver and gold, and make crowns, and set them upon the head of Joshua the son of Josedech, the high priest;
12 And speak unto him, saying, Thus speaketh the LORD of hosts, saying, Behold the man whose name is The BRANCH; and he shall grow up out of his place, and he shall build the temple of the LORD:
13 Even he shall build the temple of the LORD; and he shall bear the glory, and shall sit and rule upon his throne; and he shall be a priest upon his throne: and the counsel of peace shall be between them both.
14 And the crowns shall be to Helem, and to Tobijah, and to Jedaiah, and to Hen the son of Zephaniah, for a memorial in the temple of the LORD.
15 And they that are far off shall come and build in the temple of the LORD, and ye shall know that the LORD of hosts hath sent me unto you. And this shall come to pass, if ye will diligently obey the voice of the LORD your God.
KJV

One should understand that He MAY have physical laborers to help!

This is what the Zionists understood in the early years of the new Isra'el before she gained her independence. It's one thing to sit back and twiddle one's thumbs, like the Orthodox Jews did, expecting God to do it all; it's quite another to role up your sleeves and become a TOOL in the hands of the Almighty! He WORKS THROUGH men to do His bidding!

 

[veteran]

So basically you're just going to answer the question. You're just going to demand me answer it and then by your own admission take apart my answer and still not give me your answer.

No, I promise I will completely lay it out for you (and for others here), from Rev.13, and not simply take apart whatever your answer may be.

You see, because of 'how' you have gone about this, I'm forced more to see it as you offering me a challenge instead of just asking me a simple Bible question.

If you didn't know the answer, that's all you had to say. I doubt you even know who Revelation 13 is referring to. I do.

You'll never find out what I know about it using that kind of manner. Why should I tell you anything?

Tell you what, you can look it up, what I've covered about the deadly wound of Rev.13 right here on this Forum. Might take you a while though with the search, but it's here among 6,444 of my posts. Good luck!

 

[Tropical Islander]

"Five Phases of the First Resurrection" sounds like a nice humanistic "ism"

First Resurrection is mentioned only once, anyone not illererate will consider what it means by what it says, and not by any pretext or presumption.

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

When a matter concludes with "THIS IS IT" does that mean included items and events have occurred, or will they still happen later?

"Five Phases Of Understanding a Simple Statement" -> first, show a desire to earnestly want to know the truth, secondly, don't regard human thinking, traditions, practises, etc. higher or even equal to the words of God, third, study to show yourself approved unto God not unto man, 4th and 5th.... oh well might have to change the title to Three Phases.....

 

[veteran]

Shalom, veteran.


Look, I know that there was a Temple COMPLEX of buildings, rooms for storage and rooms for the priests and the mikvah below; however, that doesn't mean that it wasn't already COMPLETELY destroyed in the first century A.D.! The Romans literally PULLED the stones apart to get at the molten gold flowing between the stones! They tore it ALL down in a frenzied gold rush! Just the same, the FOUNDATION of the dirt platform - the RETENTION WALL - was not a part of the Temple complex!

That retention wall was strengthened and raised over the years that the Ottoman Empire controlled the mount! THEY added several layers to the retention wall that weren't originally there, and then they built the Dome of the Rock upon that platform!

Not stones of the 2nd temple or western wall, but not any... stones will be standing on top of another there when our Lord Jesus returns. By claiming that was fulfilled in 70 A.D. is very close to claiming Christ's second coming happened back then too, which is exactly what Full Preterists believe and is contrary to what Christ layed out in that Matt.24 chapter.

Muslims believe that Islam replaced both Judaism and Christianity as inferior religions, and I believe it's high time they were shown that a few inferior Christians do NOTHING to bring down the Christ or the Kingdom He promised!

Don't know what you mean by that. Christians are not inferior to anyone. It's Christ Jesus Who is Superior to all and He will determine who will be placed in shame or enjoy His Glory when He comes. Deceived Muslims are no better off than deceived Jews or Christians as for what's getting ready to take place upon this earth in our near future.

As far as the LORD building the Temple, that may or may not be true. See, even when Shlomo haMelekh (Solomon the King) built the first Temple, he himself said this very literally:

You're off track with the 2 Chron.2 example, because that was still about man building the temple on earth, even though God ordained Solomon to do it because of His servant David.

The Ps.127:1 verse is very applicable though, because its Message is that man's works are vanity. It's pointing to something that's perfect which man cannot do, but only The LORD Himself can do. It jives with Zech.6 about The Man Who's Name is 'The BRANCH' building the temple...

Zech 6:12-13
12 And speak unto him, saying, Thus speaketh the LORD of hosts, saying, Behold the man whose name is The BRANCH; and he shall grow up out of his place, and he shall build the temple of the LORD:
13 Even he shall build the temple of the LORD; and he shall bear the glory, and shall sit and rule upon his throne; and he shall be a priest upon his throne: and the counsel of peace shall be between them both.
(KJV)

That is a direct pointer to Christ Jesus as that "BRANCH".


Ezekiel 40 through 47 gives the physical layout of that future temple in Jerusalem which is set for Christ's future "thousand years" reign. It contains construction details which has never fit any temple in Jerusalem to this day. The New Jerusalem city is going to be a real physical layout upon this earth, and even the tree of life and rivers of the water of life will be real manifestations upon this earth in the future at Jerusalem. For those who believe, we are not to get stuck on the limitations and conditions of this present world when heeding God's Word about that future glory.

 

[Eric E Stahl]

I believe the Bible, it says to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. At death the spirit goes back to the Father and the body is buried to await the first resurrection.

Will the two witnesses be resurected in the tribulation?

 

[veteran]

Will the two witnesses be resurected in the tribulation?

At the ending of the tribulation. That's what Rev.11 is pointing to with the last 3rd Woe-7th Trumpet coming within that same hour.

 

[Tropical Islander]

Ezekiel 40 through 47 gives the physical layout of that future temple in Jerusalem which is set for Christ's future "thousand years" reign. It contains construction details which has never fit any temple in Jerusalem to this day. The New Jerusalem city is going to be a real physical layout upon this earth, and even the tree of life and rivers of the water of life will be real manifestations upon this earth in the future at Jerusalem. For those who believe, we are not to get stuck on the limitations and conditions of this present world when heeding God's Word about that future glory.

That was great hearing about Ezekiel 40 through 47. Changed my whole view about so many things.

Most people dismiss that because they are totally outside of any concept that permits a real physical layout of anything that does not belong to past events. Or anything physical at all in a now entirely spiritual world. Just to promote the concept that Jesus's feet will physically touch the mount of olives is totally offensive to some, either he supposedly comes back in spirit only, or at least he "shows himself to the church in Dallas first" and not in Jerusalem, that would be so Old Testament and therefore void.

Zechariah 14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

The prophets have so much future scriptures in them, once I overcame dispensationalism I started to understand them. Before it's though going, everything is distorted, even the Spirit, because the relationship to truth is contantly under attack regarding what is old and what is new. And what remains, and what is not yet. You can find our exact situation we're in right now in it, regarding America - Israel relationship, and also what they plan for Israel + future Palestinian state plans for 2014 in the prophets.

Good OP also, yes the tribulation is still coming, and we're so close now that many pretribers will be extremely surprised by it, because they never have seen it coming, and set themselves up to deny that the mark of the beast is the authentic mark of the beast. That's the final challenge. Nobody can take it and claim he was instructed to do so by the Holy Spirit - of truth.

 

[Eric E Stahl]

At the ending of the tribulation. That's what Rev.11 is pointing to with the last 3rd Woe-7th Trumpet coming within that same hour.

The third woe isthe devil being cast to the earth where he will persecute israel for 1260 days or the last half of the tribulation. Revelation 12:12-14

The two witnesses finish their 1260 day testimoney by the end of the 2nd woe. They are resurrected in the middle of the tribulation. I believe the 144,000 Jews sealed in revelation chapter 7 are also redeemed from the earth at the same time because we see them before the throne in heaven before the third woe starts. Revelation 14:1-4

 

[veteran]

The third woe isthe devil being cast to the earth where he will persecute israel for 1260 days or the last half of the tribulation. Revelation 12:12-14

If you mean Rev.12:7 forward linked with the events of the 6th Trumpet-2nd Woe timing of Rev.9:12 forward, then yes. But I admonish you to 'recognize' Christ's saints being mentioned being still on earth for that persectioin also, because Rev.12:17 reveals it will be upon those who keep God's commandments, and also those who have the Testimony of Jesus Christ. Who is it specifically that has that Testimony of Jesus Christ? His Church.

The two witnesses finish their 1260 day testimoney by the end of the 2nd woe. They are resurrected in the middle of the tribulation. I believe the 144,000 Jews sealed in revelation chapter 7 are also redeemed from the earth at the same time because we see them before the throne in heaven before the third woe starts. Revelation 14:1-4

Yes, they finish their 1260 days testimony at the ending of the 2nd Woe, and you're given a major clue about the time of the gathering to Christ within that. The great trib will NOT extend farther past than that 1260 days period. Since the two witnesses are not killed until they finish their 1260 days prophecy, what timing is that then? It's at the very END of the tribulation aligned WITH our Lord Jesus' second coming.

The vision of the elders before the throne, casting their crowns before it in Rev.4, is a FUTURE time view AFTER the tribulation, NOT during the tribulation. The fact that they already HAVE... their crowns (i.e., rewards) should have revealed that to you. None of the saints receive the rewards until the day of Christ's coming when He has defeated all His enemies on earth.