Penal Substitution is NOT a “Theory”

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John Caldwell

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Just being human doesn't mean you die. Adam was human, but not subject to death until he sinned.
We actually do not know that Adam was not destined to die. That line of thinking is like believing Adam was created asexual as this was before God determined to create woman as a helper.

I believe Adam was created as we are. He was created short of God's standard. This became evident when he transgressed the law and death moved from a potential (if you do this) to an actuality.
 

reformed1689

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We actually do not know that Adam was not destined to die. That line of thinking is like believing Adam was created asexual as this was before God determined to create woman as a helper.

I believe Adam was created as we are. He was created short of God's standard. This became evident when he transgressed the law and death moved from a potential (if you do this) to an actuality.
Then why do you try and say with 100% certainty that the death for sin is only physical and not spiritual if you leave the possibility that we were just going to die anyway? Again, you are trying to have it both ways and I don't think you know what you actually believe.
 

John Caldwell

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You might want to look up the definition of punishment...
suffering, pain, or loss that serves as retribution
b: a penalty inflicted on an offender through judicial procedure

Your idea the Cross was retribution is wrong. The idea it was a penalty influcted through a judicial procedure is wrong.
 

John Caldwell

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Then why do you try and say with 100% certainty that the death for sin is only physical and not spiritual if you leave the possibility that we were just going to die anyway? Again, you are trying to have it both ways and I don't think you know what you actually believe.
Because there is no evidence in Scripture thus death was spiritual. That and Scripture describes the Judgment as Christ-centered (something Penal Substitution Theory rejects).

Scripture does not even state that those who suffer the "second death" are made spiritually so they can die spiritually.

Spiritual life is Christ. You deny it but He is this life, David.

Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
 

reformed1689

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suffering, pain, or loss that serves as retribution
b: a penalty inflicted on an offender through judicial procedure

Your idea the Cross was retribution is wrong. The idea it was a penalty influcted through a judicial procedure is wrong.
You seem to have plucked a very narrow definition without citation. It is simply a penalty imposed/inflicted. It CAN be from judicial procedure. But it is actually a judicial procedure in this case. We have been judged to have sinned against God and have a penalty for that sin. You yourself have agreed with this position and even say Christ suffered the penalty. That is the very definition of punishment. You have successfully argued in favor of Substitutionary Atonement by being so feverishly against it. Quite humorous really.
 

reformed1689

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Because there is no evidence in Scripture thus death was spiritual.
Except there is. Dead in your sin.

Scripture does not even state that those who suffer the "second death" are made spiritually so they can die spiritually.
Are we reading the same Bible?

Spiritual life is Christ. You deny it but He is this life, David.
You are going to need to flesh this out a bit more. Please elaborate.

Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
He also said he is the bread so do you agree with transubstantiation as well?

Repent and seek God while He can be found.
??
 

John Caldwell

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You seem to have plucked a very narrow definition without citation. It is simply a penalty imposed/inflicted. It CAN be from judicial procedure. But it is actually a judicial procedure in this case. We have been judged to have sinned against God and have a penalty for that sin. You yourself have agreed with this position and even say Christ suffered the penalty. That is the very definition of punishment. You have successfully argued in favor of Substitutionary Atonement by being so feverishly against it. Quite humorous really.
I am sticking with Scripture. The Bible never speaks of anyone dying a spiritual death. Not Adam. Not Jesus. Not the lost. No one. The concept itself is extra-biblical.

I have no interest in your "old wives tales", superstitions, and myths. The best evidence against Penal Substitution Theory is the fact you cannot defend it even though you base your entire religion on the theory. You can just say it is implied.

The reason I argue against the Theory is I have seen the damage these false doctrines can do.

For example - just look at how much you have degraded the actual text of Scripture in your arguments here.
 

marks

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We actually do not know that Adam was not destined to die. That line of thinking is like believing Adam was created asexual as this was before God determined to create woman as a helper.

I believe Adam was created as we are. He was created short of God's standard. This became evident when he transgressed the law and death moved from a potential (if you do this) to an actuality.
Although God declared Adam as he was created to be Very Good.

I believe Adam was created morally innocent, while we are born morally corrupted.

But death was not in the world until sin came, so Adam was created not to die. Though he had not eaten from the tree of life either.

If we think that Adam was "destined to die" then he was "destined to sin" also, is that not so? But I do not believe that God wanted man to sin. I believe God's desire for man was that he not sin, and therefore to not die.
 

John Caldwell

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Although God declared Adam as he was created to be Very Good.

I believe Adam was created morally innocent, while we are born morally corrupted.

But death was not in the world until sin came, so Adam was created not to die. Though he had not eaten from the tree of life either.

If we think that Adam was "destined to die" then he was "destined to sin" also, is that not so? But I do not believe that God wanted man to sin. I believe God's desire for man was that he not sin, and therefore to not die.
I also believe Adam was created "good", and "upright". But I also believe Adam was created with a standing that was less than God. I believe we are born the same.

Do you believe Adam was created with spiritual life and when he sinned he died spiritually?
 
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marks

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I also believe Adam was created "good", and "upright". But I also believe Adam was created with a standing that was less than God. I believe we are born the same.

Do you believe Adam was created with spiritual life and when he sinned he died spiritually?
What do you understand spiritual life to be?

Jesus said this is eternal life, to know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.

Adam knew God, but sin separated him from God.
 

marks

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I do not believe that God is even slightly disengenuous.

I believe that when God told Adam to not eat from That Tree, that God truly did not want Adam to eat, even knowing he would.

PS . . . I'm really enjoying the opportunity to think this all through, and to test my thoughts!
 

reformed1689

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I am sticking with Scripture. The Bible never speaks of anyone dying a spiritual death. Not Adam. Not Jesus. Not the lost. No one. The concept itself is extra-biblical.
Being spiritually dead is an extra-biblical concept? No, pretty sure that is explicit.
I have no interest in your "old wives tales", superstitions, and myths. The best evidence against Penal Substitution Theory is the fact you cannot defend it even though you base your entire religion on the theory. You can just say it is implied.
Every ounce of this statement is a lie. You are really bad about that.

The reason I argue against the Theory is I have seen the damage these false doctrines can do.
And I ask again, what damage? How does the Bible cause damage?
For example - just look at how much you have degraded the actual text of Scripture in your arguments here.
None at all.
 

marks

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I am sticking with Scripture. The Bible never speaks of anyone dying a spiritual death. Not Adam. Not Jesus. Not the lost. No one. The concept itself is extra-biblical.
What do you think it means, "You who were dead in trespasses and sins" This is spoken concerning people who were physically alive. But dead in sin. What sort of death is that?
 

John Caldwell

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What do you understand spiritual life to be?

Jesus said this is eternal life, to know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.

Adam knew God, but sin separated him from God.
I believe spiritual life is Christ. I think this is why Paul speaks of "not I but Christ in me".

What I believe is that Adam was created with the need of a Savior, that need not realized or expressed until he transgressed God's command. The transgression demonstrated Adam as having a human nature which falls short of God's glory. I take the concept of the "Lamb slain from the foundation of the world" literally (not reactionary).
 

John Caldwell

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What do you think it means, "You who were dead in trespasses and sins" This is spoken concerning people who were physically alive. But dead in sin. What sort of death is that?
I believe we were dead in our trespass and sins. And I believe this points to being spiritually dead. But I do not believe men are spiritually alive, spiritually due when we sin, and need to be made spiritually alive again. This includes Adam.
 

John Caldwell

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Being spiritually dead is an extra-biblical concept? No, pretty sure that is explicit.

Every ounce of this statement is a lie. You are really bad about that.


And I ask again, what damage? How does the Bible cause damage?

None at all.
Red Herring.

I never said "being spiritually dead" is extra-biblical. I said the idea of dying spiritually is extra-biblical. Spiritual life is eternal life.
 

reformed1689

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What I believe is that Adam was created with the need of a Savior, that need not realized or expressed until he transgressed God's command.
That makes no sense. What did he need saved from when he was created?

And I believe this points to being spiritually dead. But I do not believe men are spiritually alive, spiritually due when we sin, and need to be made spiritually alive again. This includes Adam.
So Adam was ALWAYS spiritually dead?
 

John Caldwell

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What do you think it means, "You who were dead in trespasses and sins" This is spoken concerning people who were physically alive. But dead in sin. What sort of death is that?
I believe they were physically alive but spiritually dead.

I believe "eternal life" refers to spiritual life.

If a man is blind that does not mean he went blind (he may have never had the gift of sight).