Perfection, when will we gain it?

[Hobie]

Many have argued against perfection, but yet everyone knows that mans carnal imperfection or sin will not be let into heaven. And we have many text in the scriptures that speak on this...
Job 1:8
And the Lord said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?

Genesis 6:9
These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.

Psalm 7:10
My defence is of God, which saveth the upright in heart.

Matthew 5:48 - Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Philippians 3:12-15 - Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus. (Read More...)

James 1:4 - But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing.

James 3:2 - For in many things we offend all. If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man, and able also to bridle the whole body.

1 John 2:5 - But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.

1 John 4:12 - No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.

Philippians 2:15 - That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;

1 John 5:18 - We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

So how is this moral 'Gordian Knot' to be resolved?

 

[Hobie]

So will Christians come before Christ full of sin and iniquity, what does Christ say to such that come before Him at the end. We have to read Gods Word and discern....
Luke 13:26-28
26 Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets.
27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.
28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.

 

[BarneyFife]

The wheat and the tares grow together until the harvest.

Rev 14:15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, "Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is {perfectly} ripe."


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[amadeus]

@Hobie @BarneyFife​

Perfection, when will we gain it?​

If not now in this instant moment, then in the next moment, will we be lost and without further hope?

Ps 118:24

This is the day which the LORD hath made; we will rejoice and be glad in it.

Mt 6:34

Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof.

 

[Hobie]

@Hobie @BarneyFife​

Perfection, when will we gain it?​

If not now in this instant moment, then in the next moment, will we be lost and without further hope?

Ps 118:24

This is the day which the LORD hath made; we will rejoice and be glad in it.

Mt 6:34

Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof.

Well, can we do what Christ asks...
Matthew 19:21
Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

 

[BarneyFife]

@Hobie @BarneyFife​

Perfection, when will we gain it?​

If not now in this instant moment, then in the next moment, will we be lost and without further hope?

Ps 118:24

This is the day which the LORD hath made; we will rejoice and be glad in it.

Mt 6:34

Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof.

I honestly do not concern myself with moment-by-moment standing before God. I understand that it's important to some people almost to the point of distraction. I try to remain in an attitude of prayer but the way I view assurance of personal redemption is neither to the extreme of unconditional eternal security nor that of hoping not to die in the midst of a gap between a single sin and the repentance/confession thereof. I cling to the promises of assurance found in the Bible and avoid the popular brand of anxiety that seeks to improve upon them. I really love the Sermon On The Mount's view of temporal concerns as being adaptable models of assurance of salvation as you seem to have indicated here.

Your question deserves a better scriptural response than I can give at the moment, but if I could suggest an illustration to provoke thought:

It is possible for a plant to be perfect all along the course of its growth, but it is only possible for it to be perfectly ripe at the point at which the harvester reaps.

I sin. I'm not at all happy about that. But it happens. And when it happens, it is entirely my fault.

I do not believe in nearly all the theories that are posed by preachers and teachers.

I believe that all who have died truly in Christ will be raised incorruptible when He returns. As to the state of their righteousness, sinlessness, etc. at their deaths, I do not care to speculate any more than I would about the living ones today.

I believe that as the spirits of truth and error are marshaled against each other as the nearness of the very end of time presses upon the evil one, the withdrawal of the Spirit from those who will not have Jesus rule over them and the outpouring of that same Spirit upon those who will do so will result in a crescendo of good and evil that will produce saints who would rather die than knowingly sin against God and, at the same time, reveal finally unrepentant sinners who will like nothing more than to deliver up those saints to be killed.

At that time, the wheat will be ready to be gathered into the barn, and the tares burned in bundles.

I believe God has condescended (because He need not do so) to prove something to the universe about the principles of His government vs. the principles of Satan/Lucifer by the conduct of the last generation of mankind.


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[amadeus]

Well, can we do what Christ asks...
Matthew 19:21
Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

Indeed and what is it that we now have that we are to give to those who are needy? Help us dear Lord!

 

[amadeus]

I honestly do not concern myself with moment-by-moment standing before God. I understand that it's important to some people almost to the point of distraction. I try to remain in an attitude of prayer but the way I view assurance of personal redemption is neither to the extreme of unconditional eternal security nor that of hoping not to die in the midst of a gap between a single sin and the repentance/confession thereof.

We may do all that we can do and still realize we are failing even so. So again we ask of God and again He provides. Ask Him to help us to be praying without ceasing and to be rejoicing in Him always.

When He responds by leading us to a better place one more time, can we still be distracted? If we can then again we will sin, but He understands and is merciful.

How many times are we to forgive our brother who has sinned against us? Seven times? Nay, seventy times seven times! Believe me God has forgiven me more than 490 times, but onward I continue toward Him asking and receiving because I continue to strive and surrender and because He loves me, that is us, so much.

I cling to the promises of assurance found in the Bible and avoid the popular brand of anxiety that seeks to improve upon them. I really love the Sermon On The Mount's view of temporal concerns as being adaptable models of assurance of salvation as you seem to have indicated here.

His sermon makes it clear where we can be with Him... but how may we ever attain to those things? Only with His help all the way to the end of our course.

Your question deserves a better scriptural response than I can give at the moment, but if I could suggest an illustration to provoke thought:

It is possible for a plant to be perfect all along the course of its growth, but it is only possible for it to be perfectly ripe at the point at which the harvester reaps.

Everything that went before in our lives however "good" one might see it to have been, is it not for naught, if we fail to be on His side at the end?

I sin. I'm not at all happy about that. But it happens. And when it happens, it is entirely my fault.

Your fault? My fault? "Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa" [my fault, my fault, my most grievous fault] are Latin words I remember from my far away days in Catholicism. If you understand them in spite of any misgivings you or anyone may have about that church, I believe that they express well what you are saying.

I do not believe in nearly all the theories that are posed by preachers and teachers.

I believe that all who have died truly in Christ will be raised incorruptible when He returns. As to the state of their righteousness, sinlessness, etc. at their deaths, I do not care to speculate any more than I would about the living ones today.

When He returns? And if we were to die physically today? Could we now say then with Apostle Paul:

2ti 4:7	I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith:
2ti 4:8	Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

I believe that as the spirits of truth and error are marshaled against each other as the nearness of the very end of time presses upon the evil one, the withdrawal of the Spirit from those who will not have Jesus rule over them and the outpouring of that same Spirit upon those who will do so will result in a crescendo of good and evil that will produce saints who would rather die than knowingly sin against God and, at the same time, reveal finally unrepentant sinners who will like nothing more than to deliver up those saints to be killed.

At that time, the wheat will be ready to be gathered into the barn, and the tares burned in bundles.

Help us dear Lord that we may be wheat in your garner!

I believe God has condescended (because He need not do so) to prove something to the universe about the principles of His government vs. the principles of Satan/Lucifer by the conduct of the last generation of mankind.

God has indeed lowered Himself because He has loved us, but why O why would He love such worthless bumblers as us? Thank you, dear Lord!

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[Hobie]

Indeed and what is it that we now have that we are to give to those who are needy? Help us dear Lord!

When you see those out in the cold, with dirty rags for clothes who have no home, no money, no food, is your heart filled with empathy and brotherly affection and love that you have withing, or do you press on the gas a little harder to pass it as fast as you can and roll up your window and look the other way........

 

[Always]

Perfection simply means scripturally "mature" at some point we are no longer babes in Christ, now each baby matures differently depending on environment, training and obedience, surround yourself with those who are like minded, meditate on the Word day and night, follow the leading of the Holy Spirit

 

[amadeus]

Perfection simply means scripturally "mature" at some point we are no longer babes in Christ, now each baby matures differently depending on environment, training and obedience, surround yourself with those who are like minded, meditate on the Word day and night, follow the leading of the Holy Spirit

Perfect as God is perfect. How far am I from it? Help me dear Lord! Help us dear Lord!

Mt 5:48

Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

 

[Hobie]

Perfection simply means scripturally "mature" at some point we are no longer babes in Christ, now each baby matures differently depending on environment, training and obedience, surround yourself with those who are like minded, meditate on the Word day and night, follow the leading of the Holy Spirit

Yes, but are you a 'mature' christian, and still in adultery and coveting other peoples things, or swindling your father and mother out of their retirement egg, as many do. No, Perfection means much more, it goes beyond that, to not even look evil...
1 Thessalonians 5:22
Abstain from all appearance of evil.

 

[Lambano]

Well, can we do what Christ asks...
Matthew 19:21
Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

I guess when we've done that, we can at least TALK about being perfect.

Are we there yet?

 

[Lambano]

Perfection, when will we gain it?​

2 Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when Christ appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is. (1 John 3:2)

We have this promise.

 

[Hobie]

I guess when we've done that, we can at least TALK about being perfect.

Are we there yet?

No IMHO,, It seems many Christians would rather keep all their earthly possessions than give them up and be with Christ...

 

[Gottservant]

Even someone perfect, is tempted with irrationality (selah)

 

[Taken]

Perfection, when will we gain it?

When gained?
After bodily death IN Faith IN the Lord God.

When known?
After Baptism of the Holy Spirit.

When manifested?
After resurrection in a Glorified body.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Hobie]

Perfection, when will we gain it?

When gained?
After bodily death IN Faith IN the Lord God.

When known?
After Baptism of the Holy Spirit.

When manifested?
After resurrection in a Glorified body.

Glory to God,
Taken

Well, many will say they have gained it but Christ will be the judge...
Matthew 7:22-23
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Matthew 13:41
The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

 

[Taken]

Well, many will say they have gained it but Christ will be the judge...
Matthew 7:22-23
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Matthew 13:41
The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

Sure.
Some already HAVE, crucified with Jesus, “temporarily” living in His “body”…
Called “IN” Christ and Perfect-ed “IN” Christ, waiting for their own glorified, perfect body.

For Some, they will be at a Stand off, and willing to physically die, to receive Salvation.

And Some will be completely bewildered, thinking they were good, but missed the boat, that Standing with God is the goodness He Desired.

And Some will be thankful, He knew their True Heart, they were able to hide from men.

The Lord God shall Quicken whom He will.

John 5:
[21] For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Hobie]

Sure.
Some already HAVE, crucified with Jesus, “temporarily” living in His “body”…
Called “IN” Christ and Perfect-ed “IN” Christ, waiting for their own glorified, perfect body.

For Some, they will be at a Stand off, and willing to physically die, to receive Salvation.

And Some will be completely bewildered, thinking they were good, but missed the boat, that Standing with God is the goodness He Desired.

And Some will be thankful, He knew their True Heart, they were able to hide from men.

The Lord God shall Quicken whom He will.

John 5:
[21] For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.

Glory to God,
Taken

Of themselves, No. If they truly turn to Christ, their lives are changed moment by moment on the road to sanctification. But never can they claim perfection. That is up to God, and He has given it to Christ to judge which is laid out in scripture.
John 5:22
For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:

Daniel 7:9-10
9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.

1 Peter 4:17
For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?