POLL: Does the Comma Johanneum(1 John 5:7) belong in the New Testament?

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Does the Comma Johanneum(1 John 5:7) belong in the New Testament?


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shepherdsword

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Does the Comma Johanneum(1 John 5:7) belong in the New Testament?
This is an excellent and very controversial question. It is the only verse that gives an explicit statement concerning the Trinity. I am going to say that it is absolutely a true quotation of John and is authoritative. Here are my reasons:

1) Cyprian, Bishop of Carthage (200 A.D. - 258 A.D.), quotes this as being written by John (vol. V, 418,423 , Ante-Nicene Fathers).
2) Vigilius of Thapsus quotes it in the 5th century.
3) The Codex Montfortii contains it.

What say ye?

1 Jn 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

DISCUSS!
 
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Rockerduck

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Because it makes sense

1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one.

1 John 5:8 - And there are three that bear witness on earth: the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and these three agree as one.
 

Ronald David Bruno

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Does the Comma Johanneum(1 John 5:7) belong in the New Testament?
This is an excellent and very controversial question. It is the only verse that gives an explicit statement concerning the Trinity. I am going to say that it is absolutely a true quotation of John and is authoritative. Here are my reasons:

1) Cyprian, Bishop of Carthage (200 A.D. - 258 A.D.), quotes this as being written by John (vol. V, 418,423 , Ante-Nicene Fathers).
2) Vigilius of Thapsus quotes it in the 5th century.
3) The Codex Montfortii contains it.

What say ye?

1 Jn 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

DISCUSS!
I am a Trinitarian, but believe this verse was added, because the original Greek was misunderstood by the early Church ... and even now.
This is the confirming Witness of the Father of His only begotten Son.
This is He that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not with the water only, but with the water and with the blood. 7 And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is the truth. 8 For there are three who bear witness, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and the three agree in one. ASV.

Spirit of truth gives witness;
"Came by water" refers to (Jesus' water baptism, when His Father witnessed and spoke, "This is my beloved Son, Whom I am well pleased" and the Holy Spirit descended upon Him.
" and with blood" refers to His death (the purpose of His mission, to die for our sins and raise from the dead in order for us to be resurrected to eternal life).
This three are one, of God's plan and will.

_________

John MacArthur's view of this passage:

"Water here refers to the baptism of Christ and blood refers to His death. At these two great events, these two notable events that bracket our Lord’s ministry, the Father gives testimony. These two events are critical to an understanding to the life and ministry of Jesus. At His baptism He was declared by the Father to be His Son. You remember a voice out of heaven at His baptism, “This is My beloved Son in whom I am well pleased.” You have direct divine witness there, not just sort of launching the beginning of His ministry, but defining it.

And I would say something else, as well. In the baptism of Christ, He identified with sinners. Didn’t He? He identified with sinners. You see, baptism was baptism of repentance. It was baptism of repentance. He didn’t have anything to repent of. But there in that most unique way, He told John, “You have to baptize Me.” And John said no, the reverse is true. And He said, “No, you have to baptize Me. I need to fulfill all righteousness.” And there He was in His baptism identifying with sinners and defining the reason He came. And the Father gave witness, “This is My beloved Son in whom I am well pleased.”

And the second divine testimony was given at His blood, as it were, or at His death, that at the end of His ministry – at the end. That too defined His ministry because as He had identified with sinners in going into the waters of a baptism of repentance, He fully identified with sinners at the cross by taking their punishment. Those are tremendously defining events, two monumental experiences bracketing His ministry of redemption. And so the Father says, I gave testimony at His baptism and testimony at His death."
 

Rockerduck

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I am a Trinitarian, but believe this verse was added, because the original Greek was misunderstood by the early Church ... and even now.
This is the confirming Witness of the Father of His only begotten Son.
This is He that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not with the water only, but with the water and with the blood. 7 And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is the truth. 8 For there are three who bear witness, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and the three agree in one. ASV.

Spirit of truth gives witness;
"Came by water" refers to (Jesus' water baptism, when His Father witnessed and spoke, "This is my beloved Son, Whom I am well pleased" and the Holy Spirit descended upon Him.
" and with blood" refers to His death (the purpose of His mission, to die for our sins and raise from the dead in order for us to be resurrected to eternal life).
This three are one, of God's plan and will.

_________

John MacArthur's view of this passage:

"Water here refers to the baptism of Christ and blood refers to His death. At these two great events, these two notable events that bracket our Lord’s ministry, the Father gives testimony. These two events are critical to an understanding to the life and ministry of Jesus. At His baptism He was declared by the Father to be His Son. You remember a voice out of heaven at His baptism, “This is My beloved Son in whom I am well pleased.” You have direct divine witness there, not just sort of launching the beginning of His ministry, but defining it.

And I would say something else, as well. In the baptism of Christ, He identified with sinners. Didn’t He? He identified with sinners. You see, baptism was baptism of repentance. It was baptism of repentance. He didn’t have anything to repent of. But there in that most unique way, He told John, “You have to baptize Me.” And John said no, the reverse is true. And He said, “No, you have to baptize Me. I need to fulfill all righteousness.” And there He was in His baptism identifying with sinners and defining the reason He came. And the Father gave witness, “This is My beloved Son in whom I am well pleased.”

And the second divine testimony was given at His blood, as it were, or at His death, that at the end of His ministry – at the end. That too defined His ministry because as He had identified with sinners in going into the waters of a baptism of repentance, He fully identified with sinners at the cross by taking their punishment. Those are tremendously defining events, two monumental experiences bracketing His ministry of redemption. And so the Father says, I gave testimony at His baptism and testimony at His death."
It is no mistake. It is found in writings of church leaders as early as in the 3rd century and scholars are well aware of it. It's just not found in the manuscripts, but the evidence is there. Every one of the 10,000 Latin manuscripts has it and don't be fooled when some "scholar' says it was a mistake that was replicated. That is a bold face lie. 1 John 5:7 says there is a record in heaven and 1 john 5:8 says there is a record on earth. These 2 verses go together.
 

Ronald David Bruno

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It is no mistake. It is found in writings of church leaders as early as in the 3rd century and scholars are well aware of it. It's just not found in the manuscripts, but the evidence is there. Every one of the 10,000 Latin manuscripts has it and don't be fooled when some "scholar' says it was a mistake that was replicated. That is a bold face lie. 1 John 5:7 says there is a record in heaven and 1 john 5:8 says there is a record on earth. These 2 verses go together.
" ... just not found in manuscripts" ... other than the Vulgate?
In context, vs. 6 sets up the next two verses. It introduces this concept of water and blood. It is obvious they changed it, because vs. 7 & 8 KJV are not congruent, don't harmonize with vs. 6.
Furthermore, vs 5 points to Jesus, the Son of God, not the Trinity.

.This is he who came by water and blood—Jesus Christ; not by the water only but by the water and the blood. And the Spirit is the one who testifies, because wthe Spirit is the truth. 7 For there are three that testify: 8 the Spirit and the water and the blood; and these three agree.

An assumption that the two that testify about Christ ( other than the Spirit) are the Father and Christ Himself is not irrational. However, the passage above makes more sense, it's congruent, vs. 6 harmonizes with 7 & 8.
The chapter also begins with the subject matter, Jesus, Son of God, not the Trinity, even though, as with many passages, Father , Son and Holy Spirit are present. The chapter confirms that our faith in Christ is evident by not only the witness of the Holy Spirit, but two events.
Those events are in harmony.
"These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life." vs. 13
 

Rockerduck

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" ... just not found in manuscripts" ... other than the Vulgate?
In context, vs. 6 sets up the next two verses. It introduces this concept of water and blood. It is obvious they changed it, because vs. 7 & 8 KJV are not congruent, don't harmonize with vs. 6.
Furthermore, vs 5 points to Jesus, the Son of God, not the Trinity.

.This is he who came by water and blood—Jesus Christ; not by the water only but by the water and the blood. And the Spirit is the one who testifies, because wthe Spirit is the truth. 7 For there are three that testify: 8 the Spirit and the water and the blood; and these three agree.

An assumption that the two that testify about Christ ( other than the Spirit) are the Father and Christ Himself is not irrational. However, the passage above makes more sense, it's congruent, vs. 6 harmonizes with 7 & 8.
The chapter also begins with the subject matter, Jesus, Son of God, not the Trinity, even though, as with many passages, Father , Son and Holy Spirit are present. The chapter confirms that our faith in Christ is evident by not only the witness of the Holy Spirit, but two events.
Those events are in harmony.
"These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life." vs. 13
All of 1 John 5 agrees. John did put 5:8 in to make sure we understand what is in heaven and what is on earth. The Trinity is in heaven, and on earth we worship in spirit and truth and the water blood and spirit agree.
 

Ronald David Bruno

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All of 1 John 5 agrees. John did put 5:8 in to make sure we understand what is in heaven and what is on earth. The Trinity is in heaven, and on earth we worship in spirit and truth and the water blood and spirit agree.
That is your understanding and that is okay. I don't need a verse nit supportive by most ancient manuscripts to believe in the Trinity, there are plenty throughout the Bible. Actually I would prefer that you were right.
 
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