Pre-Wrath Eschatology - a Sequence of Events Analysis

[veteran]

Shalom, veteran.

You've been "following God's Word" like a drunk walks the white chalk line in a sobriety test! When you PURPOSELY look for some new doctrine to tickle your ears and give you some EXCUSE for abusing Scripture, particularly using a passage of Scripture misapplied to the wrong time period in human history, how in the world can you sit there and say you've been "following God's Word" without shame?!

I'm IN God's Word. You're in the traditions of the Jews, doctrines of men. And that's why you haven't understood this matter, and believe the "abomination of desolation" was about Jerusalem's destruction in 70 A.D., which is a doctrine of Preterists.

No, I just REJECT your EXCUSE of "Biblical patterns" for using a prophecy more than once in human history, which goes AGAINST how God said His prophecies would apply! IT IS WRONG TO MISAPPLY THE PROPHECY ABOUT ANTIOCHUS IV TO SOME "ANTICHRIST" IN THE FUTURE!

Antiochus IV almost fulfilled the "abomination of desolation" prophecy from the Book of Daniel. The easy way we know he did not was because Christ Jesus proclaimed the "abomination of desolation" prophecy after Antiochus had been dead for almost 200 years. Christ gave the prophecy in association with the 7 Signs of the end, which are the 7 Seals of Revelation 6. That's what He was covering in His Olivet Discourse.

But it's quite obvious that you've come here to try and disuade the brethren from understanding the true time Christ gave the signs for in His Olivet Discourse. They are for the end of this world.

WAKE UP, SOLDIER! REVEILLE IS BEING SOUNDED! I have NOT been "referencing the 'abomination of desolation' event in the Dan. 11 and Dan. 12 Scriptures!" I have ONLY been referring to Dani'el 9:24-27 for Yeshua`s usage in Matthew 24:15 and Mark 13:14! It's YOU who has been dipping into the Dan. 11 and Dan. 12 scriptures as though they have to do with Matthew 24:15 and Mark 13:14! THEY DON'T! And, SHAME ON YOU for teaching others that they do!

Right, I am a Soldier for Christ Jesus! And the 6th Trumpet is preparing to sound today. False messiah's coming to Jerusalem is just around the corner now. The Dan.11 & 12 Scripture about the "abomination of desolation" is specifically what Christ was referring to in His Olivet Discourse of Matt.24 and Mark 13. Because you deny that it means the doctrines of men you follow has you trying to place that event in another time. When the false messiah comes to fulfill that prophecy in our near future, that's when you might... see your mistake; that is, if you don't fall to bow to that false one who comes prior to our Lord Jesus does.

You're obviously in danger, because of listening to doctrines that apprently originate from orthodox Jewish sources. It's they who plan to build another temple in Jerusalem today and start the Old Covenant sacrifices and worship again because they do not believe Jesus of Nazareth is The Christ. That's why the doctrine of Full Preterism points back to them also. That false doctrine of Preterism is designed to get believers on Christ to support the orthodox Jew's plans for Jerusalem in these last days. And support it many believers are wrongly doing.

And, that is EXACTLY what happened in Antiochus' day! They set up an image of Jupiter in the Temple, and they sacrificed an unclean pig upon the Altar to defile them both! How is it that you do not yet know this or that these Scripture verses are talking about those days?! Sometimes, you remind me of an old Dilbert comic:

You're in the comedy brother, and it's upon yourself. Because you've failed to see what Antiochus did as a clear PATTERN for the future "abomination of desolation" prophecy that Jesus proclaimed with the events of the last days.

("Aheady?" "Epiphanese?" Careful with your spelling.) No kidding! And THAT is why neither Dan. 11 nor Dan. 12 is that to which Yeshua` was referring in the Olivet Discourse! That's why we KNOW that He was referring to Dan. 9:24-27!

Spelling isn't the point, and you well know it. People like you always turn to mocking and criticism once having failed to back up what they're saying.


All 3 of these Daniel Scriptures are about the same... event of the "abomination of desolation"...

Dan 9:27
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
(KJV)

Dan 11:31
31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.
(KJV)

Dan 12:11
11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
(KJV)

Matt 24:15
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
(KJV)

Mark 13:14
14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:
(KJV)





Any little child with common sense can understand that abomination event is about some item being placed to cause desolation to false worship, and not as a literal material destruction.

 

[teleiosis]

Alright boys and girls, let's get back to the topic at hand: the Sequence of Events!

Daniel 9:27 is an important part of any eschatology.

27 He will confirm a covenant with many for one 'seven.'In the middle of the 'seven'he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him. "

Some crackpot ideas sprout out about this particular verse, which usually start out with the terrible tanslation of the Hebrew word gabar which in verb form means to prevail (usually by military might) and which was first rendered so by the King James theologians and because of its benchmark position, has been needlessly replicated in most other versions of the English in translation. Some will go so far as to say the "He" implied by the Hebrew verb conjugation is for Jesus. Another vagarity of translation is rendering the three nouns, which appear in order: on wing, abominations, desolation. To which, translators are left adding verbiage which isn't in the orginal so as to make sense of it. Now while the abomination may cause God's Wrath to fall in one sense, the same word for desolation is used at the end for the receipient of God's Wrath. As Wrath is always directed at sentient beings and never at conditions, (being a condition itself) then the noun form of desolation could also refer to a person: the desolator as it is at the end of verse 27. As Revelation later reveals, the talking image of the anti-Christ is the abomination. Therefore: the desolator and the abomination are inexobably linked. So with this new information, and dismissing all the kooky ideas, we can boil down the two sentences in this one verse into three events:

• Covenant with many prevailed by the ruler who will come.
• Midpoint abomination rapidly being set up by the desolator.
• The end being poured out on the desolator.

Integrating this seqence with the previous sequence formed from the keystone Olivet Discourse, we can legitimately form the foundation for a Pre-Wrath Rapture, happening within the one 'seven,' after the midpoint, and after the Great Tribulation, but before God's Wrath is poured out at the end. This pattern is seen again and again in the Bible; there is no sequence of events which put God's Wrath as coming before the Rapture, (the majority opinion on this board which is only 5-10% of the overall Church opinion) nor is there any firm Scriptural reference which says the Rapture comes before any of the one 'seven' happens at all.

Since we have a perfect match for the midpoint abomination, those two events are combined at that point: the midpoint.

Since the end comes at the end, and the Great Tribulation is shortened by the sudden and otherwise unexpected arrival of the Day of the Lord with its preceding signs in the Heavens with the sun/moon/star event - all of the Olivet Discourse comes between the midpoint and the end of the one 'seven.'

• Covenant with many prevailed by the ruler who will come.
• Midpoint abomination rapidly being set up by the desolator.
• The shortened Great Tribulation
• Sun/moon/star event.
• Jesus coming on the clouds.
• Gathering of the Elect / Deliverance.
• The end being poured out on the desolator.

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, teleiosis.

Alright boys and girls, let's get back to the topic at hand: the Sequence of Events!

Daniel 9:27 is an important part of any eschatology.

27 He will confirm a covenant with many for one 'seven.'In the middle of the 'seven'he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him. "

Some crackpot ideas sprout out about this particular verse, which usually start out with the terrible tanslation of the Hebrew word gabar which in verb form means to prevail (usually by military might) and which was first rendered so by the King James theologians and because of its benchmark position, has been needlessly replicated in most other versions of the English in translation. Some will go so far as to say the "He" implied by the Hebrew verb conjugation is for Jesus. Another vagarity of translation is rendering the three nouns, which appear in order: on wing, abominations, desolation. To which, translators are left adding verbiage which isn't in the orginal so as to make sense of it. Now while the abomination may cause God's Wrath to fall in one sense, the same word for desolation is used at the end for the receipient of God's Wrath. As Wrath is always directed at sentient beings and never at conditions, (being a condition itself) then the noun form of desolation could also refer to a person: the desolator as it is at the end of verse 27. As Revelation later reveals, the talking image of the anti-Christ is the abomination. Therefore: the desolator and the abomination are inexobably linked. So with this new information, and dismissing all the kooky ideas, we can boil down the two sentences in this one verse into three events:

• Covenant with many prevailed by the ruler who will come.
• Midpoint abomination rapidly being set up by the desolator.
• The end being poured out on the desolator.

Integrating this seqence with the previous sequence formed from the keystone Olivet Discourse, we can legitimately form the foundation for a Pre-Wrath Rapture, happening within the one 'seven,' after the midpoint, and after the Great Tribulation, but before God's Wrath is poured out at the end. This pattern is seen again and again in the Bible; there is no sequence of events which put God's Wrath as coming before the Rapture, (the majority opinion on this board which is only 5-10% of the overall Church opinion) nor is there any firm Scriptural reference which says the Rapture comes before any of the one 'seven' happens at all.

Since we have a perfect match for the midpoint abomination, those two events are combined at that point: the midpoint.

Since the end comes at the end, and the Great Tribulation is shortened by the sudden and otherwise unexpected arrival of the Day of the Lord with its preceding signs in the Heavens with the sun/moon/star event - all of the Olivet Discourse comes between the midpoint and the end of the one 'seven.'

• Covenant with many prevailed by the ruler who will come.
• Midpoint abomination rapidly being set up by the desolator.
• The shortened Great Tribulation
• Sun/moon/star event.
• Jesus coming on the clouds.
• Gathering of the Elect / Deliverance.
• The end being poured out on the desolator.

I challenge the version you chose to use. The word "temple" is NOT in the Hebrew there at all.

 

[teleiosis]

Oh, that's the NIV. They, in their meaning-for-meaning translation, do interject the Temple at the midpoint abomination in Daniel 9:27. In the 2010 version they clean up their mistake saying it was in the "wing of the Temple."

What the NIV loses is the function of the "wing," which connotes speed, much like the "flood" which brings the King of the North in Daniel 11:45 to the Holy Mountain, which again, Biblically is Mount Moriah: the Temple Mount.

The KJV uses "on wing" figuratively, which is allowed. They just get the figure of speech wrong. It is not overshadowing, but speed which I interpret the passage.

However, we can know from the Olivet Discourse that is true that what NIV says happens is "in the Temple," because Jesus said that the abomination would be set up in the "Holy Place." Biblically speaking, that is IN the Temple, but in front of the Curtain which separates the "Holy Place" from the "Holiest Place," or "Holy of Holies." In a second proof which the NIV relies upon, Paul also says in 2Th chapter 2 that the Man of Lawlessness would be in the Temple. In Revelation 13:14-15, we find out that the talking image is of the anti-Christ. So he does set himself up in the Temple - 2Th 2:8.

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, teleiosis, again.

Oh, that's the NIV. They, in their meaning-for-meaning translation, do interject the Temple at the midpoint abomination in Daniel 9:27. In the 2010 version they clean up their mistake saying it was in the "wing of the Temple."

What the NIV loses is the function of the "wing," which connotes speed, much like the "flood" which brings the King of the North in Daniel 11:45 to the Holy Mountain, which again, Biblically is Mount Moriah: the Temple Mount.

The KJV uses "on wing" figuratively, which is allowed. They just get the figure of speech wrong. It is not overshadowing, but speed which I interpret the passage.

However, we can know from the Olivet Discourse that is true that what NIV says happens is "in the Temple," because Jesus said that the abomination would be set up in the "Holy Place." Biblically speaking, that is IN the Temple, but in front of the Curtain which separates the "Holy Place" from the "Holiest Place," or "Holy of Holies." In a second proof which the NIV relies upon, Paul also says in 2Th chapter 2 that the Man of Lawlessness would be in the Temple. In Revelation 13:14-15, we find out that the talking image is of the anti-Christ. So he does set himself up in the Temple - 2Th 2:8.

Well, they haven't cleaned it up enough. "Temple" is STILL not in there! No matter what slant you put on it, the NIV is wrong. The Hebrew of the phrase is...

...v`al knaf shiqquwtsiym mshomeem...

and a literal translation is...

...and-upon a-wing of-abominations he-shall-make-desolate ...

And, don't use circular reasoning. You can't use Dani'el 9:27 to support your interpretation of Matthew 24:15 if you're going to use Matthew 24:15 to support your interpretation of Dani'el 9:27! Something's gotta give! Your little closed-loop of goto's (in programming jargon) is a GREAT WAY to hang up your program! Ever hear of being "stuck in a loop?" That's what happens when you use circular reasoning; that's why it's a logical fallacy!

Furthermore, the "he" of "he shall make desolate" refers back to the "Messiah" in verse 26, not the "prince" which is - again - part of a prepositional phrase!

If you start with an erroneous interpretation of the passage, you can only go down from there!

Shalom, teleiosis, again.

P.S. - Oh, and by the way, the KJV does NOT use "on wing!" The KJV uses "and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate." It's the "spreading out" like an infection to which Gavri'el is referring.

 

[teleiosis]

Nonsense, it's not circular reasoning when the Bible has multitple accounts which reference the midpoint abomination - to combine those accounts into a singular picture!

The "he" which starts verse 27, in Hebrew grammar (I got a book on Hebrew grammar by two experts on the subject: Waltke and O'Connor - just to refute your silly notion) refers back to the last person mentioned, whether he or she be the subject or the object, even of a prepositional phrase. It is the last person mentioned to which any pronoun would refer.

As far as your Hebrew, you use a unique transliteration unlike any I have from accredited doctorate-quality sources which theologians use in Seminaries around the country. How do you get some high-quality books like that? Ask a Ph.D. in theology what they use for word study at their college, university or seminary. As far as your translation, there is also no direct verbiage which allows you to insert "he shall make" into the middle of abomination - desolation/desolator. So your point that Jesus makes desolate is lost; the language simply is not there. I'm not sure you can even say that Jesus is the one making it desolate when the Scroll belongs to God the Father. Jesus is just the only one that can open it - sort of not a surprise there...

These are all little sidetracks that you get immersed in, and your eschatology gets really confused in the end. I've heard your eschatology, it doesn't add up, and your criticism that Mt 24:15 has nothing to do with Dan 9:27 just doesn't wash either.

P.S. to counter yours: I said "overspreading." The KJV translators used a figurative translation for wing (kanap).

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, teleiosis.

Nonsense, it's not circular reasoning when the Bible has multitple accounts which reference the midpoint abomination - to combine those accounts into a singular picture!

It does if you're trying to prove something, and you have been doing just that. It's wrong to say "if x, then y" and then in the next breath say "if y, then x."

The "he" which starts verse 27, in Hebrew grammar (I got a book on Hebrew grammar by two experts on the subject: Waltke and O'Connor - just to refute your silly notion) refers back to the last person mentioned, whether he or she be the subject or the object, even of a prepositional phrase. It is the last person mentioned to which any pronoun would refer.

As far as your Hebrew, you use a unique transliteration unlike any I have from accredited doctorate-quality sources which theologians use in Seminaries around the country. How do you get some high-quality books like that? Ask a Ph.D. in theology what they use for word study at their college, university or seminary. As far as your translation, there is also no direct verbiage which allows you to insert "he shall make" into the middle of abomination - desolation/desolator. So your point that Jesus makes desolate is lost; the language simply is not there. I'm not sure you can even say that Jesus is the one making it desolate when the Scroll belongs to God the Father. Jesus is just the only one that can open it - sort of not a surprise there...

One grammar book does not an expert make! You need better proof than that! Give the name of the book, the page number on which you found your information, the copyright year, the ISBN if it has one. What's wrong with backing up what you say? And, another thing: what gives you the right to call anyone else's notion "SILLY?" You get yourself so worked up over nothing. Try taking it to a more mature, scholastic level, please. I have asked Ph.D's in linguistics at a major university, such as the University of Central Florida. I have talked to Hebrew scholars at Bible Colleges, and I have a personal friend who is a "sabra" (a native) who teaches Hebrew whose name is Micha'el _________. And, I have my own Hebrew grammar books. It's not a mystery: Those who want to believe the "he" refers to the "Messiah" have ample proof. However, I am coming to understand that those who are adamantly determined to say the "he" refers to the "prince that shall come" will find some excuse to do so.

And, WHO CARES what kind of transliteration scheme one uses?! You REALLY need to get over THAT! There's no such thing as a perfect transliteration scheme, nor are they consistently used! Some will use underlining; some will use various different marks for the various vowel pointings; some will use marks or double letters for consonants that English doesn't have. SO?! As long as one defines his or her transliteration scheme and consistently uses it, what else truly matters?!

Consider the keyboard right in front of you. Then, look carefully at the transliteration scheme you prefer to use. Can you make all the symbols needed for your transliteration scheme with your keyboard? If not, then perhaps you need a better transliteration scheme! I have used and adapted the transliteration scheme of PC Study Bible's Interlinear Bible. Why? Because everything they try to represent about the Hebrew alefbet and the vowel pointing can be independently represented using a common keyboard! Don't like it? Fine. Come up with something better! Convince me of a better transliteration scheme, and I'll adopt it, okay? (Sheesh!)

These are all little sidetracks that you get immersed in, and your eschatology gets really confused in the end. I've heard your eschatology, it doesn't add up, and your criticism that Mt 24:15 has nothing to do with Dan 9:27 just doesn't wash either.

My, you get confused easily! I never said that "Mt. 24:15 has nothing to do with Dan. 9:27." Where in the world did you get THAT notion?! If anything, I've said just the OPPOSITE! What I said was that NEITHER of them has to do with some future, fictional, "antichrist" figure! And actually, I'm enjoying getting my eschatology right without all the super-spiritual nonsense that so many faiths insert in the eschatology they push. You may have "heard" my eschatology, but you've still failed to consider it objectively. You're not willing to even give anything I say a chance. Such closed-mindedness does not bode well for a serious student of God's Word.

P.S. to counter yours: I said "overspreading." The KJV translators used a figurative translation for wing (kanap).

(See the section on transliteration schemes above.) "Knaf" does primarily mean "wing" but it also means primarily a "BIRD'S wing!" Whenever it is used as something else, it is using it figuratively!

 

[teleiosis]

No, saying that the NIV's interjection of Temple is based on the knowledge that the abomination of Daniel 9:27 is later revealed by Christ Jesus to be in the Holy Place as He said in Mt 24:15, and as Jesus later revealed to John in Revelation (after the first Jewish Revolt of A.D. 67-70) as the talking image of the beast of a man - is NOT to say if y then x and if x then y. That doesn't even make sense mathematically.

Because Jesus is talking about the abomination and because He references Daniel, a search of Daniel results in the pinpointing of Dan 9:27 as the verse Jesus is making reference to in the first place. Since we can establish that Jesus is talking about the midpoint abomination of Daniel 9:27, then any additional information He provides to us - such that it is set up in the "Holy Place" - and because we can reference OT Law and we know from the building of the Tent of Meeting that the Holy Place is in the tent, which later was incorporated in the Temple - and in front of the Curtain which separates the Holy of Holies from the area where the Levite Priests would perform their Temple duties - then we can legitimately combine those two. X = Y.

So it is IN THE TEMPLE that the abomination of Daniel 9:27 is set up. The NIV correctly gets that right in their meaning-for-meaning translation. The NIV, however, entirely misses the aspect of a wing, and in my figurative interpretation, I take the aspect of speed (wings were also symbols of power, and could be protective shields as well) as shown by the parallel account of the anti-Christ in Daniel 11:36-45 where it uses the image of a flood to convey the rapid invasion the King of the North, the anti-Christ, the little horn, or the beast of a man makes right before the midpoint - i.e., rapidly, abomination / desolator.

Indeed, there is a perfect symmetry between Daniel 11:45 and Luke 21:20. I was going to get to that later when I combine Daniel 11 with the Sequence of Events.

Now as to your ridiculous partial-Preterist claims that Jesus "confirmed" a covenant with many for one 'seven,' - please show by Scripture that Jesus used His might to prevail a limited time agreement. The Preterist position is laughable; yours is a mish-mash of that and more, being partial.

As to books, I also noticed you didn't cite one authority for your interpretation.

Now, as you haven't a thing to say about the Sequence of Events, except that it disagrees with your eschatology, I'll get on with my chores, like cutting the grass and getting the back porch ceiling ready for painting.

__________________________________________________________________


A couple of fallacies in argument for those that like to argue. I have been accused of presenting a circular argument by Retrobyter. He defined it as saying; "And, don't use circular reasoning. You can't use Dani'el 9:27 to support your interpretation of Matthew 24:15 if you're going to use Matthew 24:15 to support your interpretation of Dani'el 9:27!"

A circular argument is defined such: Circulus in demonstrando (circular argument) Circular argumentation occurs when someone uses what they are trying to prove as part of the proof of that thing. Here is one of my favorite examples (in pared down form): "Marijuana is illegal in every state in the nation. And we all know that you shouldn't violate the law. Since smoking pot is illegal, you shouldn't smoke pot. And since you shouldn't smoke pot, it is the duty of the government to stop people from smoking it, which is why marijuana is illegal!"

Circular arguments appear a lot in debate, but they are not always so easy to spot as the example above. They are always illegitimate, though, and pointing them out in a debate round looks really good if you can do it. The best strategy for pointing out a circular argument is to make sure you can state clearly the proposition being proven, and then pinpoint where that proposition appears in the proof. A good summing up statement is, "In other words, they are trying to tell us that X is true because X is true! But they have yet to tell us why it's true."

So, when I equate Mt 24:15 to Daniel 9:27, that is not a circular argument. We have to look at each verse and see what is alike in order to see if they are equivalent.

Mt 24:15 "So when you see standing in the holy place 'the abomination that causes desolation,'spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand—
Dan 9:27b And (on wing) at the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him (desolation / desolator)."

1. The key phrase, abomination - desolation, is central to both statements.
   
2. In Matthew, Jesus said it was spoken through the prophet Daniel. (In the Jewish Tanach, interestingly enough, Daniel is not counted as a prophet.)
   
3. The author, Matthew, interjects the phrase: "let the reader understand." This cements the connection Jesus made to Daniel.

In addition, this particular instance of abomination - desolation can be singled out as the end-time instance. In Daniel 11:31, by the prefix in the Hebrew for abomination, (meaning "the") it is a specific abomination, and it is tied to the generational North/South war which concluded with the abomination of 168 B.C. being set up by Antiochus IV Epiphanes. The usage of this in Daniel 12:11 is a generic reference to the same event but without the qualifiers of being plural for abomination, nor having the noun form of desolation / desolator that are found in Daniel 9:27.

So it is not a circular argument to equate Mt 24:15 to Daniel 9:27. It is a straight up comparison and done so by the very Word of our Lord pointing us to the source for His referencing this seminal event which splits the one 'seven' in two.

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, teleiosis.

No, saying that the NIV's interjection of Temple is based on the knowledge that the abomination of Daniel 9:27 is later revealed by Christ Jesus to be in the Holy Place as He said in Mt 24:15, and as Jesus later revealed to John in Revelation (after the first Jewish Revolt of A.D. 67-70) as the talking image of the beast of a man - is NOT to say if y then x and if x then y. That doesn't even make sense mathematically.

Because Jesus is talking about the abomination and because He references Daniel, a search of Daniel results in the pinpointing of Dan 9:27 as the verse Jesus is making reference to in the first place. Since we can establish that Jesus is talking about the midpoint abomination of Daniel 9:27, then any additional information He provides to us - such that it is set up in the "Holy Place" - and because we can reference OT Law and we know from the building of the Tent of Meeting that the Holy Place is in the tent, which later was incorporated in the Temple - and in front of the Curtain which separates the Holy of Holies from the area where the Levite Priests would perform their Temple duties - then we can legitimately combine those two. X = Y.

Well, at least you can see that it doesn't make sense mathematically. It also doesn't make sense logically, and if we were to write this into a program, it wouldn't make sense for digital logic, either. It would become an endless loop that would cause the program to freeze. On the other hand, that is PRECISELY what you were advocating by using your interpretation of the Matthew verse to interpret the Daniel verse and then using your interpretation of the Daniel verse to interpret the Matthew verse! Can't you see that it's your METHOD OF INTERPRETATION that is your basis for how you look at both verses? You're not letting the verses dictate your method of interpretation! (Oh well, probably not.)

Ya-dah ya-dah yadah whatever. You obviously have no idea what I was talking about; so, I'll just drop it. You may never understand simple, formal logic. Most never see the need to understand it; so, it's okay if you don't. We'll just have to try a different approach, that's all.

So it is IN THE TEMPLE that the abomination of Daniel 9:27 is set up. The NIV correctly gets that right in their meaning-for-meaning translation. The NIV, however, entirely misses the aspect of a wing, and in my figurative interpretation, I take the aspect of speed (wings were also symbols of power, and could be protective shields as well) as shown by the parallel account of the anti-Christ in Daniel 11:36-45 where it uses the image of a flood to convey the rapid invasion the King of the North, the anti-Christ, the little horn, or the beast of a man makes right before the midpoint - i.e., rapidly, abomination / desolator.

No, just because it's "right" to you doesn't make the NIV's interpretation of the verse any more correct! A meaning-for-meaning translation is ALWAYS susceptible to the whim of the interpreter! And, if you follow such a translation religiously, unquestioningly, and gullibly, then you, too, are susceptible to the whim of that interpreter! No matter what version one uses, one should ALWAYS confirm that translation based on what one may find out or learn from the original languages through a different authority. "Let GOD be true and EVERY man a liar!" This is why I'm not "INTO" commentaries. While I do read them for additional insights to round out my studies, they are, after all, just the opinions of fallible, human beings, susceptible to the same errors to which we are ALL susceptible!

Let me ask you something: My version of the NIV uses square brackets around the words "of the temple"; why do you suppose they did that?

Indeed, there is a perfect symmetry between Daniel 11:45 and Luke 21:20. I was going to get to that later when I combine Daniel 11 with the Sequence of Events.

Don't go there. You will really mess up your eschatological "sequence of events analysis" if you start inserting prophecies that are already completed and out of the picture when it comes to the future fulfillment of events. Look. As I've been trying (unsuccessfully, I might add) to explain to others on this board, when a prophecy is fulfilled, TAKE IT OUT OF COMMISSION! It becomes "OFF-LIMITS" for anyone to use it again! It's FULFILLED! COMPLETED! TETELLESTAI to use a Greek word! "PAID IN FULL!" And, just like a bill marked "Paid in full," that bill should NEVER be used to exact any more money from the purchaser! In the same way, a prophecy marked "FULFILLED" should never be used to suggest additional future events! Dani'el 11:45 is OUT OF COMMISSION because it is FULFILLED! PERIOD! It was a prophecy about Herod the Great, and it was HE who "pitched his royal tents between the seas at the beautiful, holy mountain!" Who else but Herod had the gall to build his palace and his royal pavilions right next door to the Temple?! Furthermore, Luke 21:20 is ALSO a fulfilled prophecy! It was fulfilled in 66-67 A.D. prior to the Temple's destruction in 70 A.D.

Do yourself a favor: Go through the prophecies and test them against historical events. See which ones are fulfilled and see which ones have yet to be fulfilled. "Close the book" on the ones that have already been fulfilled, and focus on what is left. THEN, redo your analysis.

(More to come...)

Shalom, again, teleiosis.

(Continuing on...)

Now as to your ridiculous partial-Preterist claims that Jesus "confirmed" a covenant with many for one 'seven,' - please show by Scripture that Jesus used His might to prevail a limited time agreement. The Preterist position is laughable; yours is a mish-mash of that and more, being partial.

Yes, THAT'S what I remembered about your fallacious usage of the word "prevail!" NOBODY uses the word that way! One might say that Yeshua` prevailed WITH a limited time agreement, or one might say that Yeshua` prevailed UPON someone to keep a limited time agreement, but NOT that Yeshua` prevailed a limited time agreement! That makes no sense!

As far as using Scripture to show you that Yeshua` fulfilled this passage, I've given them before, but I will give them again JUST FOR YOU:

I'm going to start with a simple list: You may look them up at your leisure, and after the list, I will pick a few key verses to display here:

2 Samuel 7:12-16; 12:24; 23:5; 1 Chronicles 28:1-10; Psalm 2:1-12; 21:1-13; 45:1-17; 48:1-14; 72:1-20; 89:1-52; 110:1-7; 132:1-18; Proverbs 3:11-12; Isaiah 9:6-7; 55:3; Jeremiah 23:5-6; 30:8-9; 33:14-26; Ezekiel 37:24-25; Daniel 7:13-14; Hosea 3:4-5; 11:1; Amos 9:11; Zechariah 14:4-9; Matthew 1:1-17; 2:1-2; 3:13-17; 16:13-20, 28; 17:1-8; 22:41-46; 26:62-64; 27:11, 29, 37, 40; Mark 1:1-11; 8:27-30; 9:1-9; 11:1-10; 12:35-37; 15:2, 17-18, 26, 32; Luke 1:30-33, 67-75; 3:21-22, 23-38; 4:3, 9, 41; 8:28; 9:18-20, 27-36; 10:21-22; 19:35-38; 22:29-30; 23:2-3, 35-39; 24:46-49; John 1:14-18, 29-34; 3:14-18, 34-36; 5:17-47; 6:44-47; 8:25-30, 48-59; 10:22-39; 11:4, 27; 12:12-15; 17:1-26; 18:33-37; 19:7, 12-15, 19-22; 20:30-31; Acts 2:17-36; and Hebrews 1:1-14.

2 Sam. 7:12-17
12 And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom.
13 He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever.
14 I will be his father, and he shall be my son. If he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men:
15 But my mercy shall not depart away from him, as I took it from Saul, whom I put away before thee.
16 And thine house and thy kingdom shall be established for ever before thee: thy throne shall be established for ever.
17 According to all these words, and according to all this vision, so did Nathan speak unto David.
KJV

1 Chron. 28:1-10
1 And David assembled all the princes of Israel, the princes of the tribes, and the captains of the companies that ministered to the king by course, and the captains over the thousands, and captains over the hundreds, and the stewards over all the substance and possession of the king, and of his sons, with the officers, and with the mighty men, and with all the valiant men, unto Jerusalem.
2 Then David the king stood up upon his feet, and said, Hear me, my brethren, and my people: As for me, I had in mine heart to build an house of rest for the ark of the covenant of the Lord, and for the footstool of our God, and had made ready for the building:
3 But God said unto me, Thou shalt not build an house for my name, because thou hast been a man of war, and hast shed blood.
4 Howbeit the Lord God of Israel chose me before all the house of my father to be king over Israel for ever: for he hath chosen Judah to be the ruler; and of the house of Judah, the house of my father; and among the sons of my father he liked me to make me king over all Israel:
5 And of all my sons, (for the Lord hath given me many sons,) he hath chosen Solomon my son to sit upon the throne of the kingdom of the Lord over Israel.
6 And he said unto me, Solomon thy son, he shall build my house and my courts: for I have chosen him to be my son, and I will be his father.
7 Moreover I will establish his kingdom for ever, if he be constant to do my commandments and my judgments, as at this day.
8 Now therefore in the sight of all Israel the congregation of the Lord, and in the audience of our God, keep and seek for all the commandments of the Lord your God: that ye may possess this good land, and leave it for an inheritance for your children after you for ever.
9 And thou, Solomon my son, know thou the God of thy father, and serve him with a perfect heart and with a willing mind: for the Lord searcheth all hearts, and understandeth all the imaginations of the thoughts: if thou seek him, he will be found of thee; but if thou forsake him, he will cast thee off for ever.
10 Take heed now; for the Lord hath chosen thee to build an house for the sanctuary: be strong, and do it.
KJV

Ps. 89:1-52
1 I will sing of the mercies of the Lord for ever: with my mouth will I make known thy faithfulness to all generations.
2 For I have said, Mercy shall be built up for ever: thy faithfulness shalt thou establish in the very heavens.
3 I have made a covenant with my chosen, I have sworn unto David my servant,
4 Thy seed will I establish for ever, and build up thy throne to all generations. Selah.
5 And the heavens shall praise thy wonders, O Lord: thy faithfulness also in the congregation of the saints.
6 For who in the heaven can be compared unto the Lord? who among the sons of the mighty can be likened unto the Lord?
7 God is greatly to be feared in the assembly of the saints, and to be had in reverence of all them that are about him.
8 O Lord God of hosts, who is a strong Lord like unto thee? or to thy faithfulness round about thee?
9 Thou rulest the raging of the sea: when the waves thereof arise, thou stillest them.
10 Thou hast broken Rahab in pieces, as one that is slain; thou hast scattered thine enemies with thy strong arm.
11 The heavens are thine, the earth also is thine: as for the world and the fulness thereof, thou hast founded them.
12 The north and the south thou hast created them: Tabor and Hermon shall rejoice in thy name.
13 Thou hast a mighty arm: strong is thy hand, and high is thy right hand.
14 Justice and judgment are the habitation of thy throne: mercy and truth shall go before thy face.
15 Blessed is the people that know the joyful sound: they shall walk, O Lord, in the light of thy countenance.
16 In thy name shall they rejoice all the day: and in thy righteousness shall they be exalted.
17 For thou art the glory of their strength: and in thy favour our horn shall be exalted.
18 For the Lord is our defence; and the Holy One of Israel is our king.
19 Then thou spakest in vision to thy holy one, and saidst, I have laid help upon one that is mighty; I have exalted one chosen out of the people.
20 I have found David my servant; with my holy oil have I anointed him:
21 With whom my hand shall be established: mine arm also shall strengthen him.
22 The enemy shall not exact upon him; nor the son of wickedness afflict him.
23 And I will beat down his foes before his face, and plague them that hate him.
24 But my faithfulness and my mercy shall be with him: and in my name shall his horn be exalted.
25 I will set his hand also in the sea, and his right hand in the rivers.
26 He shall cry unto me, Thou art my father, my God, and the rock of my salvation.
27 Also I will make him my firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth.
28 My mercy will I keep for him for evermore, and my covenant shall stand fast with him.
29 His seed also will I make to endure for ever, and his throne as the days of heaven.
30 If his children forsake my law, and walk not in my judgments;
31 If they break my statutes, and keep not my commandments;
32 Then will I visit their transgression with the rod, and their iniquity with stripes.
33 Nevertheless my lovingkindness will I not utterly take from him, nor suffer my faithfulness to fail.
34 My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips.
35 Once have I sworn by my holiness that I will not lie unto David.
36 His seed shall endure forever, and his throne as the sun before me.
37 It shall be established for ever as the moon, and as a faithful witness in heaven. Selah.
38 But thou hast cast off and abhorred, thou hast been wroth with thine anointed.
39 Thou hast made void the covenant of thy servant: thou hast profaned his crown by casting it to the ground.
40 Thou hast broken down all his hedges; thou hast brought his strong holds to ruin.
41 All that pass by the way spoil him: he is a reproach to his neighbours.
42 Thou hast set up the right hand of his adversaries; thou hast made all his enemies to rejoice.
43 Thou hast also turned the edge of his sword, and hast not made him to stand in the battle.
44 Thou hast made his glory to cease, and cast his throne down to the ground.
45 The days of his youth hast thou shortened: thou hast covered him with shame. Selah.
46 How long, Lord? wilt thou hide thyself for ever? shall thy wrath burn like fire?
47 Remember how short my time is: wherefore hast thou made all men in vain?
48 What man is he that liveth, and shall not see death? shall he deliver his soul from the hand of the grave? Selah.
49 Lord, where are thy former lovingkindnesses, which thou swarest unto David in thy truth?
50 Remember, Lord, the reproach of thy servants; how I do bear in my bosom the reproach of all the mighty people;
51 Wherewith thine enemies have reproached, O Lord; wherewith they have reproached the footsteps of thine anointed.
52 Blessed be the Lord for evermore. Amen, and Amen.
KJV

Ps. 72:1-20
1 Give the king thy judgments, O God, and thy righteousness unto the king's son.
2 He shall judge thy people with righteousness, and thy poor with judgment.
3 The mountains shall bring peace to the people, and the little hills, by righteousness.
4 He shall judge the poor of the people, he shall save the children of the needy, and shall break in pieces the oppressor.
5 They shall fear thee as long as the sun and moon endure, throughout all generations.
6 He shall come down like rain upon the mown grass: as showers that water the earth.
7 In his days shall the righteous flourish; and abundance of peace so long as the moon endureth.
8 He shall have dominion also from sea to sea, and from the river unto the ends of the earth.
9 They that dwell in the wilderness shall bow before him; and his enemies shall lick the dust.
10 The kings of Tarshish and of the isles shall bring presents: the kings of Sheba and Seba shall offer gifts.
11 Yea, all kings shall fall down before him: all nations shall serve him.
12 For he shall deliver the needy when he crieth; the poor also, and him that hath no helper.
13 He shall spare the poor and needy, and shall save the souls of the needy.
14 He shall redeem their soul from deceit and violence: and precious shall their blood be in his sight.
15 And he shall live, and to him shall be given of the gold of Sheba: prayer also shall be made for him continually; and daily shall he be praised.
16 There shall be an handful of corn in the earth upon the top of the mountains; the fruit thereof shall shake like Lebanon: and they of the city shall flourish like grass of the earth.
17 His name shall endure for ever: his name shall be continued as long as the sun: and men shall be blessed in him: all nations shall call him blessed.
18 Blessed be the Lord God, the God of Israel, who only doeth wondrous things.
19 And blessed be his glorious name for ever: and let the whole earth be filled with his glory; Amen, and Amen.
20 The prayers of David the son of Jesse are ended.
KJV

Ps. 132:1-18
1 Lord, remember David, and all his afflictions:
2 How he sware unto the Lord, and vowed unto the mighty God of Jacob;
3 Surely I will not come into the tabernacle of my house, nor go up into my bed;
4 I will not give sleep to mine eyes, or slumber to mine eyelids,
5 Until I find out a place for the Lord, an habitation for the mighty God of Jacob.
6 Lo, we heard of it at Ephratah: we found it in the fields of the wood.
7 We will go into his tabernacles: we will worship at his footstool.
8 Arise, O Lord, into thy rest; thou, and the ark of thy strength.
9 Let thy priests be clothed with righteousness; and let thy saints shout for joy.
10 For thy servant David's sake turn not away the face of thine anointed.
11 The Lord hath sworn in truth unto David; he will not turn from it; Of the fruit of thy body will I set upon thy throne.
12 If thy children will keep my covenant and my testimony that I shall teach them, their children shall also sit upon thy throne for evermore.
13 For the Lord hath chosen Zion; he hath desired it for his habitation.
14 This is my rest for ever: here will I dwell; for I have desired it.
15 I will abundantly bless her provision: I will satisfy her poor with bread.
16 I will also clothe her priests with salvation: and her saints shall shout aloud for joy.
17 There will I make the horn of David to bud: I have ordained a lamp for mine anointed.
18 His enemies will I clothe with shame: but upon himself shall his crown flourish.
KJV

Isa. 9:6-7
6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.
KJV

Isa. 55:3-5
3 Incline your ear, and come unto me: hear, and your soul shall live; and I will make an everlasting covenant with you, even the sure mercies of David.
4 Behold, I have given him for a witness to the people, a leader and commander to the people.
5 Behold, thou shalt call a nation that thou knowest not, and nations that knew not thee shall run unto thee because of the Lord thy God, and for the Holy One of Israel; for he hath glorified thee.
KJV

Jer. 33:14-26
14 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will perform that good thing which I have promised unto the house of Israel and to the house of Judah.
15 In those days, and at that time, will I cause the Branch of righteousness to grow up unto David; and he shall execute judgment and righteousness in the land.
16 In those days shall Judah be saved, and Jerusalem shall dwell safely: and this is the name wherewith she shall be called, The Lord our righteousness.
17 For thus saith the Lord; David shall never want a man to sit upon the throne of the house of Israel;
18 Neither shall the priests the Levites want a man before me to offer burnt offerings, and to kindle meat offerings, and to do sacrifice continually.
19 And the word of the Lord came unto Jeremiah, saying,
20 Thus saith the Lord; If ye can break my covenant of the day, and my covenant of the night, and that there should not be day and night in their season;
21 Then may also my covenant be broken with David my servant, that he should not have a son to reign upon his throne; and with the Levites the priests, my ministers.
22 As the host of heaven cannot be numbered, neither the sand of the sea measured: so will I multiply the seed of David my servant, and the Levites that minister unto me.
23 Moreover the word of the Lord came to Jeremiah, saying,
24 Considerest thou not what this people have spoken, saying, The two families which the Lord hath chosen, he hath even cast them off? thus they have despised my people, that they should be no more a nation before them.
25 Thus saith the Lord; If my covenant be not with day and night, and if I have not appointed the ordinances of heaven and earth;
26 Then will I cast away the seed of Jacob, and David my servant, so that I will not take any of his seed to be rulers over the seed of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob: for I will cause their captivity to return, and have mercy on them.
KJV

There are many, MANY more, but this will suffice. All of these verses have this in common: They all recognize the covenant that God had with David and with his children after him; they specify that there will be a greater than Smo (Solomon) among David's children; God promises to be a Father to Him, and He will be His Son; and of His Kingdom there would be no end. Thus, the covenant was FORTIFIED or RATIFIED when God said, "This is my beloved Son in whom I am well pleased." Furthermore, God also CONFIRMED that covenant by the miracles He gave Yeshua` to perform, AUTHENTICATING YESHUA`S CLAIM!

As to books, I also noticed you didn't cite one authority for your interpretation.

Now, as you haven't a thing to say about the Sequence of Events, except that it disagrees with your eschatology, I'll get on with my chores, like cutting the grass and getting the back porch ceiling ready for painting.

That's because there is no one author to whom I look for my interpretation. However, if you'd like a few books that support SOME of my interpretation, look to J. Dwight Pentecost's book, Things To Come: A Study in Biblical Eschatology, particularly chapter VII, pp. 100-115. You might also want to check out G. N. H. Peters' book, The Theocratic Kingdom, and Charles C. Ryrie's book, The Basis of the Premillennial Faith. All three of these works emphasize the importance of the Davidic Covenant.

Don't make the mistake of thinking I don't do my homework!

 

[teleiosis]

So once again, you do your homework with books that agree with your thinking, and no other thinking is allowed because it conflicts with what you think!

Don't believe everything you think.

The Sequence of Events is not wrong because it contradicts Partial Preterism; that's what school you belong to Retrobyter.

And I don't have to go through all the gymnastics to show how screwed up this eschatology is because it not only fails on its face, but also because to do so is not going to change your mind one iota. You are not here to share ideas, or talk about Scripture; you are here to push your belief built upon your own thinking.

And as far as books, I mean reference books written by accredited authors. Waltke is an expert in ancient Hebrew today at the national level. Hebrew grammar is very complex, but the basic rule on pronouns is that they relate to their antecedent noun. There is no rule which states that a pronoun does not relate to its antecedent just because it is an object of a preposition. Thus the pronoun implicit in the third person singular conjugation of gabar relates to the last person mentioned - and that is the "ruler who will come," who, as in any good adventure story - serves as the bad guy proponent who gets the plot moving along so that the hero comes in and saves the day.

As far as your Partial Preterist eschatology, I will ask you to prove it on another thread.

Now if you want to talk about the simliarities of Mt 24:15 and Daniel 9:27b that I posted before - which you avoided like the plague - you are free to engage in constructive criticism. However, you can once again talk to the hand if all you want to do is say I'm wrong because Partial Preterism is right. Partial Preterism, or even Full Preterism is a bunch of hogwash, and remains the weakest of all eschatologies right next to Amillennialism.

As far as gabar is concerned, Harris, Archer Jr., and Waltke edited the authoritative two volume Workbook of the Old Testament, and in that reference book, when gabar is used as a verb, it's primary definition is to prevail. When used as an adjective, it means to be mighty, firm, or strong. So I can trust you with your whacky eschatology and strange transliteration or I go with the nationally accredited experts in Hebrew. Sorry Charlie, you lose again.